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spartanmachine
7th July 2003, 07:45
Do you feel that your training is realistic enough that you can honestly defend yourself? If so what exactly do you feel is the critical aspect in your training that has truly prepared you to be aware of danger, to deal with it efficiently, and finally to know when you are in over your head and need to get out of a situation as quickly as possible (possibly turning tail and running) or do you never feel that this could be necessary?

A. M. Jauregui
7th July 2003, 08:46
Do you feel that your training is realistic enough that you can honestly defend yourself?

Yes, I feel that I can honestly take care of myself in situations that a person like me could get into. More then half of the time I can talk my way out of it coming to fisticuffs. *Telling them that they, might kick my a$s but are going to get hurt in the process, generally calms people right down for some reason.*

If so what exactly do you feel is the critical aspect in your training that has truly prepared you to:

be aware of danger

The kenjutsu style that I do as given me a fairly good sense of when people are about to attack. Also common sense *generally* keeps my butt out of locals where when the sh!t hits the fan it is everyone for themselves.

to deal with it efficiently

The jujutsu style that I do is fairly deep and the kenjutsu style is kind of centered around ending conflict as fast as possible. *But really I am such a sweet girl.*

to know when you are in over your head and need to get out of a situation as quickly as possible (possibly turning tail and running) or do you never feel that this could be necessary?

I would have to say that this is more of a common sense tactic then one that I picked up from training. In fact retreat is counter to the training that I have received. But is flight sometimes better then flight - hell yes.

spartanmachine
7th July 2003, 09:00
Ana, is self-defense what originally attracted you to kenjutsu and jujutsu? If not what would you say was your original attraction? As a woman do you feel you have different reasons for training than the males in your classes?

A. M. Jauregui
7th July 2003, 09:11
Not really. Physical I am and have been in good enough shape I could use brut force to defend myself against most women and a good number of men. What originally attracted me to the martial arts was that my mom practiced them in her youth. Like most children I looked up to my parents and ended up following many of the paths that they chose - my dad was a historian and my mom did karate to name a few examples. Eventually doing martial arts became a habit... *Look at my introduction thread.*

As for the reasons to the men that train at the same dojo that I go to, I really do not have a clue but the different guys *I am the only girl* all seem to have different reasons.

Mekugi
7th July 2003, 09:18
Nothing can prepare you for "reality".
Murphy's law. If it can go wrong, it will.

That's MHO.

-Rawsty


Originally posted by spartanmachine
Do you feel that your training is realistic enough that you can honestly defend yourself? If so what exactly do you feel is the critical aspect in your training that has truly prepared you to be aware of danger, to deal with it efficiently, and finally to know when you are in over your head and need to get out of a situation as quickly as possible (possibly turning tail and running) or do you never feel that this could be necessary?

StanLee
7th July 2003, 09:20
Just one thing that I have to say on the subject. As told to me by many people. In a conflict, be it self defence or not, be expected to be hit.

Now do you train to be really hit hard? I guess not, unless you are slightly mentally disturbed. By the way, In MA we do train to be hit, but in a different way, i.e. we do something against it as supposed to let someone practice punching you.

Hope that makes sense...

Stan

spartanmachine
7th July 2003, 09:25
Excellent replies so far, let's build on this:

Nothing can prepare you for "reality".
Murphy's law. If it can go wrong, it will.

I believe nothing can fully prepare you for reality, but would you not agree that there are somethings you can do in training that help. For example as Mr. Lee states, you can't train for full contact hits with bare knuckles unless you're disturbed but how about some contact sparring , obviously this will help with real contact as opposed to no Randori whatsoever.

A. M. Jauregui
7th July 2003, 09:43
I agree about the bare knuckle fighting. I tried it for a while but reviving a huge *well it feel really big* cut to my face - thank god it did not leave a scar. I called it quits. Randori is the sane way to go about it...

Btw: It was a historical club that practiced bare knuckle boxing. *What a historical fool I am...was!!!*

Cody
7th July 2003, 09:45
"honestly defend myself"? Hell, no.

But if I am allowed to be sneaky, then yes =)

A. M. Jauregui
7th July 2003, 11:29
Cody

We have two weapons with us at all times; our bodies and, more importantly, our minds.
-EVN, Polaris

;)

illusions117
7th July 2003, 12:10
>> Do you feel that your training is realistic enough that you can >> honestly defend yourself?


I believe that my training is realistic enough for my purposes. I can usually walk away from an encounter and I try hard not to put myself in difficult positions, but if it comes down to it I think I'm pretty well off. It would be arrogant to say I know enough to save myself from any situation, but I would sure try and cause some damage to save myself if I had to. I think overall fitness plays a role in martial arts. I am a frequent runner and weight lifter as well as a martial artist so I think I have at least some edge over the average person who may not be as physically fit as they could be.



>>If so what exactly do you feel is the critical aspect in your >>training that has truly prepared you to be aware of danger, to >>deal with it efficiently, and finally to know when you are in over >>your head and need to get out of a situation as quickly as >>possible (possibly turning tail and running) or do you never feel >>that this could be necessary?


I think training with a semi contact environment has helped me to know when I am in over my head. I think most of us can be aware of when we're in danger if we're alert and if we don't lose our focus we can deal with it pretty well. I absolutely have no objections to running. Running away is one of the reasons I'm a frequent runner, along with cardio benefits. Shoot, if I can't win, I'll resort to plan "B" which is maybe I can out run them! "He who runs away, lives to run away another day."[B]

Lee Mc'pherson
7th July 2003, 13:21
There are so many diferent things that one has to take in to account about a real fight that you can never really be prepared. In my opinion we as MA's just raise the scalles in our favour by constantly training in many diferent ways we simply put more prepared but neven completly prepared.

wendy ongaro
7th July 2003, 14:08
Yes. Why do I say yes? I've been in too many situations (mostly job related) that had the potential to get really ugly or got ugly (like the post a few months ago about one patient trying to assault another on the psych unit while the potential victim was having a heart attack). Try explaining to a withdrawing drug seeker in a little room that no, he's not getting narcotics only from you, but that you've talked to pharmacy, and barred him from getting them from the entire facility really does increase one's risk.

Does my martial art make me immune from being cold cocked or taken by surprise? No. It's only a matter of time before this happens to me.

My martial arts training keeps me in shape, keeps my reflexes intact, and keeps my self-defense knowledge fresh. Along with my horseback riding and outdoors skills, I keep my sensitivity (to the environment around me, not political correctness) honed.

My very best weapon IS THE ABILITY TO MANIPULATE SOCIAL SITUATIONS. As Ana put it earlier "*But really I am such a sweet girl.*" I look about 5-8 years younger than I am, I look harmless, I am attractive, and I play up the nurturing, 'I'm really listening to your needs and concerns' aspect of my personality/health care role. This immediately diffuses 75% of situations that could get bad. I see potentially dangerous patients on MY turf i.e. my time, my exam room, with security escort if needed, and I tell them where to sit (very graciously, please, kind sir, have a seat over here on the other side of the room). IF they don't stay put, don't obey my intitial requests to sit where I want them to sit, etc. I leave. I scope out my patients before I see them and set up my situations as best as I can ahead of time.

Finally, I do not include crazy people in my personal life. My crazy parents are 2000 miles away, my husband is the most sane person I know, my friends are stable, with it people who don't drink too much (just enough for a good conversation), don't dope too much (ie I don't know about it if they do), don't wife swap, none of that. In other words, I'm square! ( nor do I spank people at parties :D )

fifthchamber
7th July 2003, 14:33
Hi all..
My basic answer would be yes. However, I would add that the one thing above all others that allows me to feel like that is my understanding of "zanshin"...THAT is the most important part in NOT being attacked. Understanding your relation to others is something SOOOOOOO many people have NO concept of...People walking down dark roads tapping in answers to a friends text message are far more likely to be chosen as targets by attackers...And there are so many people like this it must seem like hunting season for "baddies" everywhere....
What I would say is that if I mess up enough to allow someone in close enough to damage me I forfeit any right to expect a 'fair fight'...It aint going to happen. I can also say that my training up to this point allows me to feel 'capable' of causing harm, but also to know that if it came to it I would stand a good chance of taking more of a beating than my opponent would. Or, failing that of running away FAR faster and for longer than they could....At the last.
Weapons are another thing totally...And change all the factors involved...Then it might be too close for comfort...Although again, zanshin is vital in preparing for any combat...
I also cannot honestly say that being hit in sparring is ANYWHERE near being attacked....And does not prepare you for anything more than getting hit in sparring. If you think it increases conditioning....Yes, perhaps...But you could do that a few other ways..The large gloves allow nothing of any value other than safety (And seeing the fist coming for you), and smaller gloves still inhibit the wearer to certain tactics only...And not the types of things you could find fighting...Not useless. But not a great 'prep' for fights outside...IMHO.
Other than that I would agree with what Wendy says above too...It is ALWAYS better to reason a way out rather than fight and again I would say this is still an element of zanshin...An ability to change the situation to favour you, and reduce an enemies possible lines of attack to you is vital...Using words, awareness, physical presence, and attitude all form a part of this..
There is more....Undoubtedly....But thats basically a start.
Regards.

kage110
7th July 2003, 14:55
Shoot, if I can't win, I'll resort to plan "B" which is maybe I can out run them! "He who runs away, lives to run away another day."

Illusions,

This sounds like you would rather fight than run away - is this what you mean? Can't agree there pal. I agree with Plan B being to run away but only if Plan A is to avoid the situation before hand. Plan F is when you have to fight but not before you have gone through Plans C to E first!;) (And, yes, Plan 'F' does stand for something other than 'Fight' - in my experience a widely used term (and occurence) in the UK military.:p)

Bob van Tuyn
7th July 2003, 17:14
Do I think that Iím capable of defending myself?
Yes but Iím happy I never been in a satiation where I needed to put the things in practise. Because youíll always get hurt doesnít mater how good you are or how good you think you are. So if you can run or talk someone down DO IT!!

Iíve read the following lines in the replies above

RE:
ďNow do you train to be really hit hard? I guess not, unless you are slightly mentally disturbed.Ē

ďyou can't train for full contact hits with bare knuckles unless you're disturbedĒ

These two statements are totally wrong in my opinion especially the ďdisturbedĒ thing.

Why shouldnít you train with bare knuckles I do it all the time. And do we hit with full power, yes most of the time we do (depends what level your partner is). This is good training for contest and the streets.

And I do think that itís important to know how it feels to get hit with bare knuckles and unprotected shins. So that you wonít freeze when it happens outside of the dojo. Iíve seen many people freeze when they where hit on their liver or kidneys, because they didnít know what happened to them.

Iíll recommend to team up with a good sparring partner and try to go as far as youíre comfortable with hard hitting and kicking (all in good understanding between the two).

wimp_lo
7th July 2003, 19:13
I was very caple of defending myself before starting my formal martial arts training. I've never had a conflict since my training began.

Training has increased my stamina, strength, balance & focus. It's hard to see how these things cannot improve your ability to defend - unless there is some conflict between new learning and previously successful tactics. That would suck.

I have to say no to training with full force blows. I know how easy it is to break bones, cause internal bleeding, etc. I feel I have already paid those dues. But until you have been hit with bad intentions, there's no way of knowing how you will react. First time it happened to me, I quit fighting. Luckily, this was on the playground and I didn't have to suffer too much of a beating. Afterwards, after I surveyed the damage (or lack of it) realized that it hadn't hurt at all! I never had that problem again.

elder999
7th July 2003, 19:21
Originally posted by spartanmachine
Do you feel that your training is realistic enough that you can honestly defend yourself?

Defend myself against what? I guess the short answer is yes.


Originally posted by spartanmachine
If so what exactly do you feel is the critical aspect in your training that has truly prepared you to be aware of danger, to deal with it efficiently, and finally to know when you are in over your head and need to get out of a situation as quickly as possible (possibly turning tail and running) or do you never feel that this could be necessary?

Well, in addition to physical training, situational awareness training and all out psychodrama, the critical aspect has been experience. While it's been a long time since I did any doorman or bouncer work,(unless you count my last birthday:p ) the "radar" has stayed on in all that time.

"Turning tail" is always my first option, BTW.

Margaret Lo
7th July 2003, 19:44
Defend myself against whom? The problem with self defense is that you cannot completely predict where and when it may be required. The biggest variable is: who is the attacker? Is he/she 5 ft 100 lbs or 6 ft 200 lbs?

I always felt it is important to be realistic. I know by training, I have NOT gained the ability to defend myself, I have only lessened the pool of assailants who can hurt me.

I can comfortably say: I can defend myself against most unarmed women and some unarmed men.

I think most assailants are men and most men are stronger than I am and that remains a disadvantage to me. So I may live or escape, but I am likely to get hurt in the process.

I train so that if I go down, I go down fighting and not crying.

M

PS: But there's ONE thing I know I can do... I can SPANK drunk, unruly, naked guests at parties. :D

Soulend
7th July 2003, 20:34
Do you feel that your training is realistic enough that you can honestly defend yourself?

Against some, but probably not others. Like any other creature, I imagine.

spartanmachine
7th July 2003, 23:10
Thanks for all the replies so far.
Ok, do you guys think about the most common vulnerabilities you may have day to day and train according to these. Ex. If you go to bars alot do you include de-escalating situations in your training as well as preparing for situations that may arise there.
If so, what are some of these situations and how do you train to deal with them?

wendy ongaro
7th July 2003, 23:55
When I was working full time for the state pen, my husband and I ran through a number of scenarios, including how to best knock patients off of exam tables.

this is going to sound kinky, but we also got a hold of some hand cuffs and practiced the best ways to slip them. I then would flirt with the security officers in my spare time and have them cuff me, to see who was cuffing right and who wasn't, and therefore, which inmates would be more likely to slip cuffs with different officers.


I also have a couple different response scenarios for dealing with mental health emergencies that have served me well so far.

don't laugh, but I've also gotten really handy with my bear spray. The big horns don't have grizzlies (yet- they're coming), but they do have moose, wolves, and most frightening, people. I figure if bear spray can disable a grizzly long enough for me to get away, it will be helpful in distracting a human long enough to create an opportunity. But like all weapons you have to practice, practice, practice. :D

shinobi77
8th July 2003, 00:37
Hi all,

Not to deviate from the question posed, but I kind of have an offshooting q of my own. So, generally speaking most martial artists feel they are better off than not for having spent the time they have training. My question is at what point did you start to feel confident that you could handle an attack? I know that there's a myriad of things that you can't prepare for...personally it's only been a year and a half since i started training, and i'm happy i know what i do now, but not quite sure about many things yet. My worries are more centered around the fact that I might not have the control i need so that "I" don't hurt someone instead of toning it down to deal with the situation more appropriately. I figure there's people with decades of training that use this forum so there would be some interesting comments. A year, 5 years, 10, 20? Just a curious question,

Jed Konopka :)

Jock Armstrong
8th July 2003, 01:17
"Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill". Old aussie saying.
A lot of truth in that- especially for the smaller folks. Cody nailed it [I'm assuming from her chinese background that she is fairly small] why stand toe to toe with someone bigger. Pretend to be overwhelmed squeeze out a crocodile tear or two and when the opening is presented, go for the jugular. The same goes for small guys. Ever seen a bully inflate when he thinks he has the little guy crawling- guard goes out the window and then he gets deflated by smart little guy. Double ouch. We used to teach girls that a possible defence when some rapist is mauling her is to sink your teeth into the rat's tongue or lip and rip like hell. Takes their mind of sex that does. Usually they are too much in pain and shock to beat up on the girl too. Thats when she should make like Jesse Owens. Fighting hurts. I'm confident in my abilities [used to fight drunken cowboys for a living every Saturday night] but why expose yourself to unnecessary danger. No rules in defending yourself. remove the threat.

Mekugi
8th July 2003, 02:47
We used to teach girls that a possible defence when some rapist is mauling her is to sink your teeth into the rat's tongue or lip and rip like hell. Takes their mind of sex that does. Usually they are too much in pain and shock to beat up on the girl too.

Not to be a jerk, but I would have to say that rape is NEVER about sex, even though the rapist is sexually aroused. I am to understand that rape is really about control and domination- and if you take this feeling of "control" from the possible rapist, then they are semi-vulnerable, but at the same time extremely dangerous and unpredictable.

-Russ

wendy ongaro
8th July 2003, 02:51
My question is at what point did you start to feel confident that you could handle an attack?

When I became comfortable with my capability to survive losing an attack and being victimized. After that, winning or losing an attack became less important as the difference between them didn't seem as cut and dried.


My worries are more centered around the fact that I might not have the control i need so that "I" don't hurt someone instead of toning it down to deal with the situation more appropriately.

My husband once second guessed an assault, and lost some teeth in the process. Remember, first action, right action. The more you actively think and analyse in the heat of the moment, the less focused you are on what is really going on around you. Think before you get into a situation. Once the sh!t goes down, just do what you need to do to get out in one piece.

I often had self-defense students who would come and share their experiences with me and want to know if 'they had done the right thing'. Had they done the right thing? Hell if I know, I wasn't there. There are a million variables in an assault, you cannot factor for all of them. My advice was "you are here now with me, alive, and in good physical health. therefore, you must have done the right thing." To try to second guess ourselves after something traumatic is normal- it's how we learn from life. But at some point, you have to say "enough! this is what I could have done differently- and this is WHAT I DID RIGHT!" and LET IT GO.

joe yang
8th July 2003, 02:59
Do you feel you can honestly defend yourself?

What a straight line, please!

No, but I can dishonestly defend myself. :D

Cody
8th July 2003, 03:15
My greatest vulnerability is not knowing when to switch into combative mode. From past experiences, most assaults are commited by people I know well. When people you love or care about decide to cross the boundary gradually, it's hard to know when to draw the line.

Unfortunatelly, so far, none of my training experiences directly help me make those decisions.

That said, being around "warriors" (so to speak), and in the process of adopting budo as a lifestyle, I become more mindful of different faucets of violence, it's not a taboo that I would avoid at all cost anymore. And that helps me to deal with it more realistically, and I become more ready to commit myself into combative mode, and also to switch back into civil mode and be in control.

-Cody

Jock Armstrong
8th July 2003, 03:36
Never said rape was about sex alone. However, nobody feels powerful with their tongue bit in half. Really hurt the SOB- give yourself time to escape. Also missing an eyeball slows baddies down too. Ladies, get mean and nasty. Be indignant. "how dare you" is a big motivator.

spartanmachine
8th July 2003, 05:45
Do you feel you can honestly defend yourself?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a straight line, please!

No, but I can dishonestly defend myself.

I was waiting for someone to notice that ;)

OK Do you HONESTLY feel you can defend yourself?

Happy Joe?

Mekugi
8th July 2003, 09:14
Hi again!
Maybe I am unclear with my point. What I am saying is rape's not about sex at all, it's about hurting someone and feeling powerful. I am not saying that women should not fight back, but the reasoning that fighting back "it takes their mind off sex" has absolutely nothing to do with the rapist's motives.

That is to say, it is feasible to think that a person who was castrated could "rape" someone, albeit differently. There was a debate a few years back that wanted to lop off the genitalia of rapists as a "cure all" to the problem. While that sounds fine and dandy, the parties involved ascertained this would not stop the "rapist" from sexual asssualt because it has nothing to do with the libido.

-Russ


Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Never said rape was about sex alone. However, nobody feels powerful with their tongue bit in half. Really hurt the SOB- give yourself time to escape. Also missing an eyeball slows baddies down too. Ladies, get mean and nasty. Be indignant. "how dare you" is a big motivator.

illusions117
8th July 2003, 11:46
Kage110,

Well, I think it would depend on the exact circumstances whether I wanted to fight before running away. I mean, in general, I would like to refrain from getting involved and in most situations my first goal would be to talk my way out or walk away. There are some circumstances where it would be more logical from my perspective to defend yourself such as someone coming at you with a flurry of punches. Also, both types of plan F are also common in the U.S. military as well from my experience. :D

joe yang
8th July 2003, 12:33
Yes, I am happy. Yes, I honestly think I can defend myself. That makes me a complete fool! :D

txhapkido
9th July 2003, 04:10
Originally posted by Bob
Why shouldnít you train with bare knuckles I do it all the time. And do we hit with full power, yes most of the time we do (depends what level your partner is). This is good training for contest and the streets.

Let me get this straight. You hit with full power and your training partner doesn't wind up in the hospital. Something's wrong with this picture.

Bob van Tuyn
9th July 2003, 14:55
Yes we do hit with full power, and fortunately nobody ends up in de hospital. They do of course get bleu, purple and red skins and very sour bones. Especially the ribs and forearms. But to my understanding every kyokushin practitioner trains in this manner. And our tournaments are also conducted this way. And very few people end up in de hospital.

So it is possible to train at full strength and without pats. And I do recommend it because it does familiarise you wit the feeling so that when you get hit in a real fight you wonít be stunned.

BradMessenger
9th July 2003, 17:34
Do I feel I can defend myself? Well, for the most part yes. 90% of self defense is self awareness. For the 10% where I would need to use physical self defense it all depends on the situation. Take for example the fight I saw last week, two guys throwing haymakers back and forth for about a minute, and no one got hit...not once. Could I defend myself against this? Pfft i'd hope so, but there will be times when it is one MA practitioner against another, or maybe a weapon involved...and in that case I am never good enough at self defense, I could always improve on something.

The day I feel I am the best is the day I stop training.

Brad Messenger

Mekugi
10th July 2003, 00:35
Are you hitting to the head?

-Russ

Originally posted by Bob van Tuyn
Yes we do hit with full power, and fortunately nobody ends up in de hospital. They do of course get bleu, purple and red skins and very sour bones. Especially the ribs and forearms. But to my understanding every kyokushin practitioner trains in this manner. And our tournaments are also conducted this way. And very few people end up in de hospital.

So it is possible to train at full strength and without pats. And I do recommend it because it does familiarise you wit the feeling so that when you get hit in a real fight you wonít be stunned.

Jock Armstrong
10th July 2003, 02:58
Bob, if you are hitting full power to the head and nobody is busted up or unconscious, you are not doing it right..............
Seriously, Kyokushin shiai are tough but they lack reality in that the rules expressly forbid punching to the head, which happens to be the single most common attack in the street. My own experience in bars [security] was that guys I worked with who were kyokushin stylists were good value- hard, brave as lions but they used to get split lips and broken noses because they tended to neglect their guard. You can't toughen your face and even tough guys fall down when you plant them square on the chin.
As for training bare knuckle on bags and mitts I agree. Ultra hard or heavy bags are not necessary for punching. A solid medium weight bag is fine. Also, there is no need for extended bag sessions. Thats cardio vascular and can be done better in other ways.Point them knucles folks!!!:beer:

Mekugi
10th July 2003, 03:27
I would like to say this about that, if I may be so bold (or is that an arse? You be the judge. Anything I say at this is all moot B.S. because I previously said that you can never "really" be prepared, so I am whizzing in the wind).

Training continually in a way that leaves your vulnerable to injury is also bad self defense. I mean, if you are practicing full force all the time, which greatly increases the chance of injury, you are more than likely to be injured. As mister Murphy points out, if it can go wrong it will; therefore the one time that you are injured as a result of "hard" training is the one time that you will be attacked and unable to defend yourself. This is not to say that once in a while is bad, but look at a boxer who has to keep himself injury free because he knows a date he has to fight. That alone is difficult, combine that with never knowing when you can be jumped and you comopound that.

There is a Koyokushin group in the gym I work out at, and they are always having the ambulance pay a visit. It seems to me that is counterproductive, I can only imagine them smacking each other in the head all the time!

Whatcha think?

-Russ

Bob van Tuyn
10th July 2003, 10:25
Ha ha,
I must say that I enjoyed reading the post of Jock Armstrong and Mekugi because its clear that they misunderstood me. I know this is my fault because I didnít mention that we do not hit to the head. In kyokushin you can only kick or use your knees for strikes to the head. So I meant that we hit with our full strength to the body. In tournament we also hit with full strength to the head (only with kicks and knees) but we donít do this in our dojo to prevent serious injuries.

RE:
lack reality in that the rules expressly forbid punching to the head, which happens to be the single most common attack in the street.

This is a weakness that every practitioner of kyokushin knows. But personally I donít want to go back to the days where kyokushin practitioners had rappingís around their hands and punched to the face. But which martial arts is perfect when you want realistic fighting??????? Every art has its strong and weak points.

RE:
There is a Koyokushin group in the gym I work out at, and they are always having the ambulance pay a visit. It seems to me that is counterproductive, I can only imagine them smacking each other in the head all the time!

I think this only speaks bad of that particularly group, in my dojo I know only of one person who has cracked a rib in 5 years.

But my point was that itís useful to train without protection and at full strength so that people donít freeze when the get hit without gloves.

Bob van Tuyn
10th July 2003, 11:03
When I see some MA I wonder if they are able to defend themselves in real life. Iím talking about MA that only train in forms and in ďrolesĒ. You attack Iíll block and throw etc. etc. etc.

Or MA that have a point system, you tab someone on the head or body youíll get separated by the referee and are awarded a point and then youíll start over until someone scores a point and youíll be separated again.

The point is that in real live there is nobody to separated you when youíve tabbed someone on the chest or head. Nor will someone say, ďO.K Iíll attack now and you can throw meĒ In a real fight they will keep on coming until they are down or youíre down.

So thatís why I see great advantages in full contact training. Iím not saying that only full contact MA are any good. But Iím convinced that it will be good that so no and then you go full contact with your friend or training partner.


And when I read remarks like

RE:
ďyou can't train for full contact hits with bare knuckles unless you're disturbedĒ
and
ďNow do you train to be really hit hard? I guess not, unless you are slightly mentally disturbedď.

I can only think of how narrow-minded these remarks are.
Because of these remarks and others like it I reacted to this thread. Iím sorry but when you donít want to be kicked or punched with some power behind it how do you think youíll cope in a real fight????

spartanmachine
10th July 2003, 15:54
And when I read remarks like

ďyou can't train for full contact hits with bare knuckles unless you're disturbedĒ

I can only think of how narrow-minded these remarks are. Because of these remarks and others like it I reacted to this thread. Iím sorry but when you donít want to be kicked or punched with some power behind it how do you think youíll cope in a real fight????

We're talking about full power full contact hits here. Now I've trained with boxing gloves (16 Ounce) and been hit full power by some big strong guys, without the gloves and mouth guard I would have gone to the hospital. It's not narrow minded to say those remarks, it's training smart and it's honest.
By the way how many times have you trained bare-knuckle full contact and against what kind of opponent?

Bob van Tuyn
10th July 2003, 17:04
Iím also talking about full power full contact punches and kicks here (no punches to the face). When youíre hitting the face you should of curse use protection Iím not debating this. But to the body I think itís a different thing. There you can hit with full force and without gloves or pads on the shins.

Iím saying that its narrow minded to say ďNow do you train to be really hit hard? I guess not, unless you are slightly mentally disturbedď. Without specifying that you mean hitting the face of your opponent. Because many people (especially competition sports) go hard to hard with their sparring partner are they mentally disturbed?????????

My point still is that itís good to know how you can hold up in full contact without protection (YOU SHOULD ALWAYS USE A MOUTH PIECE). Iím not saying that you should always train with youíre full power. This because youíre more prawn for injuries and not every body has the same fighting skill. Bud I always enjoy fighting with my sparring partners and hit with full power to the body Of course I donít kick or knee with full force to the face because itís a friendly match. Bud that does not mean that we should hold back in the stomach aria etc.

RE:
ďBy the way how many times have you trained bare-knuckle full contact and against what kind of opponent?Ē

Every training is full contact and almost every time we train without gloves (this does not mean that every time we go all-out!!!). And only against 4 th kuy and higher we can go all-out (bud once again not wit the kick to the face and the knees to the face)

I have a question for you, if you donít now and then go all-out how do you train realistically?? If you never know how it feels to be hit or kicked (and I mean strong kicks and punches) how can you prepare for tournaments and real live??

IchiRiKen1
11th July 2003, 04:34
Chiming in late here, I know...

When I train with my senior, we work on forms, breakdowns, stepping/movement, etc. We do techniques at slow, cooperative speeds at first, gradually getting more and more combat oriented.

Then, usually at the end of the training session, we scrap. I attack and get my butt handed to me. We get tied up in a pseudo-clinch, and it gets into a little freestyle stand up grappling (we train on concrete, so the option of rolling about on the ground is a rather painful one).

I inevitably end up getting smacked about quite a bit, to the degree that I get put down for more than a few minutes at least a half dozen times each session (and I feel it for days afterward).

Can I defend myself? Has my training prepared me for this? Yes.

Today my senior and I taught a class for my unit (I'm in the Army). I had two soldiers try to get a little froggy, and both of them got schooled in a rather "quick-fast-and-in-a-hurry" fashion. They simply attacked. No preconceived or prearranged agreed attack. They just launched it. One had no prior training, just attitude. One used to train in kenpo and does BJJ now. Both of them lost. Badly.

I avoid confrontation at all costs. But especially after today, I feel that I will at least walk away from most low-level situations...

Gambarimasu.

adroitjimon
12th July 2003, 04:33
A man can conquer anything if at first he learns to conquer God.
There is no fear in him that fears not himself or another
Anything is possible .for we know only the past, knowing as much
of the right now,secures the passings to past...I am Adroitjimon
there is none that can slay me , me nose stays clean so me knows
which way me goes...realeasing Kokoro has been the most benificial
thing I have learned in all of my training,because now if Im in
the right mind you could beat me with a ball bat and it wouldnt
hurt until tomorrow thats how tough I am and ain't nobody ever
beat me worse than my momma not even my brother...At my school
dojo I mean, there have been several really big guys start on
thier training and we beat the crap out of each other they quit
after awhile and I'm still training and I ain't quit yet...

I suppose I could defend my self even against a nuclear reaction
I have thousands and thousands of tinny ones all...in my head...

Mekugi
12th July 2003, 05:06
Hey ya wanna play some blackjack for cash?

I think you have the type of odds I like to bet against....

-Russ


Originally posted by adroitjimon
A man can conquer anything if at first he learns to conquer God.
There is no fear in him that fears not himself or another
Anything is possible .for we know only the past, knowing as much
of the right now,secures the passings to past...I am Adroitjimon
there is none that can slay me , me nose stays clean so me knows
which way me goes...realeasing Kokoro has been the most benificial
thing I have learned in all of my training,because now if Im in
the right mind you could beat me with a ball bat and it wouldnt
hurt until tomorrow thats how tough I am and ain't nobody ever
beat me worse than my momma not even my brother...At my school
dojo I mean, there have been several really big guys start on
thier training and we beat the crap out of each other they quit
after awhile and I'm still training and I ain't quit yet...

I suppose I could defend my self even against a nuclear reaction
I have thousands and thousands of tinny ones all...in my head...

adroitjimon
13th July 2003, 01:59
why you want to wager againstme? there is no need for sarcasm.
to defend ones self is ones priority in life... to say there is
defense against a certian situation is to missread the situation
all together... posessing the correct mind set for a situation is
part of the precepts of O sensei...how you portray your intentions
is how you endure the storm there is no secret to survival all
you do is either survive or succomb wether or not if your
training manefests it self in the time of need is truly a testimony
to your discipline,strength,resiliance,endurance,and self worth...

Mekugi
15th July 2003, 03:09
Originally posted by adroitjimon
why you want to wager againstme?there is no need for sarcasm.
Umm, because in blackjack, it is more fun to bet. Also, the way you look at the odds...well...bring cash is all I can say. There's always room for sarcasm!


Originally posted by adroitjimon
to defend ones self is ones priority in life... .
In my opinion your priorities are a little messed up. My first priority is the safety of my family and loved ones, then work, then martial arts.

Originally posted by adroitjimon
to say there is defense against a certian situation is to missread the situation all together... posessing the correct mind set for a situation is part of the precepts of O sensei...how you portray your intentions is how you endure the storm there is no secret to survival all you do is either survive or succomb wether or not if your training manefests it self in the time of need is truly a testimony to your discipline,strength,resiliance,endurance,and self worth...

First, which "O'Sensei". Second.....ahh forget it. Whatever!

-Rawsty

Jock Armstrong
15th July 2003, 03:40
Bob is right about getting hit. If you are training for self defence, make sure you spar hard. Be careful with head contact [we use anzen bogu helmets to cut down on cuts and severe damage] but make sure that hard tech to the body are in. I prefer to use TKD body protectors. They actually don't do much- just take a bit of penetration out of the tech so that guys don't get damaged but still feel the hit. This kind of training is introduced slowly and the seniors set their "bash" level mutually. Contact has more of a mental effect- once you understand that getting hit is usually much less painfull than the fear of getting hit, you have good combat conditioning.:beer:

Bob van Tuyn
15th July 2003, 09:44
Thanks jock,

I find it hard to put my thoughts in to words but I think you understand it and also see the necessity of it (on this topic). I have a few friends who practise akido and kung fu (this is not criticism on these MA!!). They have much better abs than me, if they train in crunches etc. I have to quit long before they do. Bud still they canít take as many hard punches to the stomach as I. This is because I know how it feels and know what I can apect. They are much more easily distracted when they get hit hard and I just go on and so do not give my oppenent an opening because Iím stunned. So it isnít only a matter of a strong body bud more of a mental thing.

So my advice still is:
If you want to know if you can defend yourself in a fight simulate the condition as far as you can go without injuring yourself. So spar full contact now and then.

Like MAS Oyama said if you want to learn to fight you have to fight.

Best regards

Mekugi
16th July 2003, 02:31
Anyone thinking that tournament training is "reality" needs to go to a bar, find the biggest meanest and ugliest SOB in there and spit in his face. After you get your arse beat, you will have a lot of time to think about "how your training works".

Eventually, you will heal and be back to at least 80%, so now you have the chance to go to another bar, find the biggest, meanest and ugliest SOB in there, spit in his face, then try to do to him, what the first guy did to you.

"Reality Training" at it's finest.

adroitjimon
16th July 2003, 05:20
My priorities are me... I am my family and my loved ones
without me none of them would have existed on this plane...

I refrain my self from odds that would render me victimized
I have self of worth and exibit this characteristic to all
manefestations of awareness...this is what keeps me safe
this is the mind set that protects me from nuclear reactions
this is the mindset that leaves even supernatural entities
powerless to my will... I fear me, that is it...

adroitjimon
16th July 2003, 06:20
[/B][/QUOTE]
Master Gichin Funakoshi O Sensie...:wave:

Bob van Tuyn
16th July 2003, 09:34
Mekugi

I donít know if your post was a reaction on my previous post, bud I want to clarify some points so that people donít misunderstand me.

RE:
ďAnyone thinking that tournament training is reality needs to go to a barÖÖÖÖÖÖ."

Iím sorry bud I never said that tournament training equals reality.
I said that itís important to simulate the condition (of a real fight) as far as you can go without injuring yourself.

Of course tournament training doesnít equals reality be glad it doesnít because who would want to train than any more. Even cage fighting isnít near reality.

Bud this doesnít mean that training to be hit with full force and without gloves or shin pads gives you a more accurate (realistic) scenario than practising in a point fight. Where after youíve scored a point you will be separated. I think that cage fighters are generally more capable of handling realistic fights than for accample karate, TKD, aikido, judo, boxing etc.

Because there tournament style fighting comes more closely to reality than the fighting in the MA mentioned above.

So i still suggest that people so now and than hit and kick hard, just to now how it feels and how you react.

Tatakai
7th September 2003, 19:24
Having worked the doors for 5 years and having 10 years in law enforcement, I can say YES I can defend myself, if the situation arises , but the art of self defence teaches awareness as it's greatest tool, so I try to avoid conflict if and when possible.

REMEMBER KEEP IT SIMPLE!!!!!!!!!

Soulend
7th September 2003, 21:27
I think that when coming up against a street-hardened teenager, who has developed a high tolerance for pain, hunger, and violence...the average 'martial artist' is going to have serious problems. A kid who has precious little to live for except the next fix and who has existed in almost inhuman conditions his whole life will generally tear most martial artists to shreds, even though he has had zero formal training in how to fight.

I've come across some tough customers all over the world, but none compare, so far, to some folks I have 'met' that hang around the bus station in Columbia, S.C.

Could I 'honestly defend myself'? In some cases, yes, in some cases, probably no. Same with everyone else here, I reckon.

Mekugi
8th September 2003, 02:53
Originally posted by Bob van Tuyn
So i still suggest that people so now and than hit and kick hard, just to now how it feels and how you react.

If you get kicked square in the nuts, generally the reaction is to curl up and fall over. I don't think I need to do that every now and again to make sure my reaction is the same. ;)

always,