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Shikiyanaka
18th August 2003, 09:13
Hello everybody,

on May 24th, 1682, the Pechin of Hama Higa played a game of Go against the Japanese Honĺinbo Dosaku in the mansion of the Shimazu Daimy˘. Later Hama Higa Pechin received Nana Dan (7. Dan) in Go from Dosaku. It is said that this Hama Higa Pechin performed Toudi and Saijutsu in front of the 5th Tokugawa Shogun; thus he was a Kobujutsu man.

There was another Hama Higa Pechin, whose nickname is also given as Machu Higa (Matsu Higa). But this one lived later and accompanied the last Ryukyu king on a trip to Tokyo around 1870 or so. The picture often given as Matsu Higa thus would be in fact that of this Hama Higa Pechin. As the Pechin rank was family inheritance, he most likely was a descendant of the Go playing Hama Higa Pechin.

A different story tells of Matsu Higa was a men living around 1700, in the times of the Go playing Hama Higa Pechin. Matsu Higa is said to have lived on Hama Higa island for at least some time, and is also said to have introduced the Tunfa to Ryukyus, after learning it from a Chinese master. Thus it was concluded that Matsu Higa came before Hama Higa, and as there is a Hama Higa no Tunfa Kata, according to this story Hama Higa must have been a disciple of Matsu Higa. Thus it was concluded that the Hama Higa Kata was a derivation from Matsu Higa.

But as the Go playing Hama Higa Pechin lived much earlier, the Hama Higa Kata must have been first or letĺs say the original form. Or this early Matsu Higa of 1700 was in fact the Go playing Hama Higa Pechin.

Can anyone help to solve this confusion or do anyone has a comparison between the Matsu Higa and hama Higa Kata?

Andreas

Pavel Dolgachov
22nd August 2003, 09:39
What are your sources for this information, Andreas?
And probably you know about Chatan Yara. I know that there was a man on Okinawa whos name was Chatan Yara and he was a nice go player too. Probably he was an martial artist.

Shikiyanaka
22nd August 2003, 11:21
Hello Pavel,

yes yes yes, there was a Yara Satunushi (titel) who is also mentioned in context of Go. You can find the story of hama Higa Pechin and Yara Satunushi at
this wonderful page (http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/orient/go/history/okinawa1.html)

Are you sure that this was Kobudjutsu and Todi man Chatan Yara? In the story above the date 1710 is mentioned, at which time Yara was 15 years old. As Chatan Yara was a student of Kusanku - who was in Okinawa part time at around 1760 - he most likely was a descendant of the Go playing Yara Satunushi (the Pechin ranks were hereditary in the family).

On this even more wonderful page (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/005/001/index.html) you'll find the connection of the names Hama Higa Pechin and Matsu Higa (Machu Hija). This however ist the Hama Higa Pechin of 1790-1870, and that si also why it was possible that a photo was taken from him, probably when he accompanied the last Ryukyu king on a journey to Tokyo. Again; as the Pechin rank was hereditary in the family, the Go playing Hama Higa Pechin (one proved date of his life: 1682), who demonstrated Todi and Saijutsu in front of the 5th Tokugawa Shogun (this info must be from Taira Shinken's Kobudo Taikan I think) may have been a grand-grand-grand-father of the later Hama Higa Pechin.

I have also checked many other sources and lineages including Sell's Unante (he suggests, that Matsu Higa may have been a member of the Kojo family, which may be true also).

Richard Kim of course wrote "Kobudo Okinawan Weapons Of Matsu Higa" and also "Kobudo Okinawan Weapons of Hama Higa."

Hhmmmm. Let's see what you guys have...

Greetings

Andreas Quast

:eek:

Pavel Dolgachov
22nd August 2003, 12:14
yes yes yes, there was a Yara Satunushi (titel) who is also mentioned in context of Go. You can find the story of hama Higa Pechin and Yara Satunushi at

Are you sure that this was Kobudjutsu and Todi man Chatan Yara?
Of course not! It's difficult to say.

Quote from Okinawa prefecture web-page:

>There were two great turning points in the history of the Okinawan martial arts. The first was the 'Order of the Sword Hunt' implemented by King Shoshin (1477-1526) that place a ban on the carrying of weapons for not only the general public but also the warrior class people.
(end)

Andreas, what do you think about possible banning of weapon??? I think this ban and later ban are myths. What do you think about R. Kim books? Some people regard him as a collector of old tales... Hm...

I know you wrote together with Katherine sensei very interesting book. Nice work!

Shikiyanaka
22nd August 2003, 13:00
Pavel,

yes I remember you know Katherine Sensei; and Rainer Seibert told me about you, could it be?


Andreas, what do you think about possible banning of weapon??? I think this ban and later ban are myths.

I don't think they are myths. As long as there is no better work I believe in the research of George Kerr. Weapons ban by King Sho Shin and stockpiling of weapons in Shuri is documented in George Kerr's "Okinawa. History of an Islands People."

And do you know the accounts of Basil Hall and others? All say that Okinawans had no weapons or that they had weapons but didn't like to use them. Ok, that was after Satsuma occupation of Ryukyus.

Disarming the Ryukyus was simple a tool of control for Satsuma. However, they did not became peaceful trough beeing forced to stay weaponless by the Satsuma, but were peaceful people before... and paid the price. The only choice for Ryukyu people under Satsuma occupation was collaboration with the Japanese; fighting them - even occasionally - would have simply led to more suffering and punishment. On the other hand, Sakugawa, Chikin Kouragwa and Matsumura Sokon are said to have trained in Jigen Ryu; thus at a certain time the Ryukyu Bushi class was allowed - and maybe wanted to - use weapons. But that was mostly Jigen Ryu Bo Odori; as you know, the story was building "a secret defense line on the outer borders of the empire"; maybe against the European powers???


What do you think about R. Kim books? Some people regard him as a collector of old tales... Hm...

Really? Do some people regard him as a collector of tales? And is this good or is this bad?

Some people also say, that maybe the "insightful appliance of legends sometimes contains the most truth."

:rolleyes:

Pavel Dolgachov
22nd August 2003, 14:40
I remember you know Katherine Sensei; and Rainer Seibert told me about you, could it be?
Of course I remember Katherine sensei!!! She is a person who introduced me to traditional okinawan kobudo. I hope I have a right to call her my Teacher and myself as her student. I studied under her seminars from 1993 till 2000. Very sad, but we didn't see each other more than 3 years. Of course, I know Rainer Seibert. He told that you had discussion between each other about Yamanni-ryu license of Taira Shinken.


I don't think they are myths. As long as there is no better work I believe in the research of George Kerr. Weapons ban by King Sho Shin and stockpiling of weapons in Shuri is documented in George Kerr's "Okinawa. History of an Islands People."
Probably, there is a misunderstuding. People think that weapon was banned for ALL okinawans. But! I read in Mark Bishop book that okinawans were good smiths and trade their weapons (swords etc) in South-East Asia even after Satsuma invasion. Also I read that the aim of ban was to collect weapon in Shuri. Sorry for my bad english. Please read Journal of Asian Martial Arts with article by Mario McKenna about Murakami Katsumi.
One russian historian also says that in documents all wealthy okinawans after invasion had right to have swords and even could travel to Satsuma to repair them! It's documented.
Sorry, I can't say any more.
Do some people regard him as a collector of tales? And is this good or is this bad?
Difficult to say good this or bad. Sorry, but I have never possibility to read Kim's books. But untrue stories are always a reason to change history. Probably people who call Kim this way mean that.


Some people also say, that maybe the "insightful appliance of legends sometimes contains the most truth." :D Probably, but I'm historian by the education and legends and tales are not suit for XIX century. Documents are better. :D

Shikiyanaka
22nd August 2003, 17:50
Hello Pavel,

first let me quote myself:


I remember you know Katherine Sensei

This means that she told me she knows you; it was not a question of mine. So I suppose it was a misunderstanding leading you to write:


Of course I remember Katherine sensei!!!

Back to the topic. Ok, no-one said that there were no swordsmiths in Ryukyu Kingdom (who said that? Me?), but:

"No evidence can be found to suggest that the Okinawans at any time contemplated an attempt to throw off Japanese controls; nevertheless, in 1669 Satsuma saw to it that the Shuri government's swordsmithy was abolished, putting an end to the manufacture of swords for ceremonial use, and in 1699 forbade the import of weapons of any kind. A new policy inspectorate was created, and a new Japanese garrison post was established in the eastern quarter of Naha."
(George Kerr: Okinawa, the History of an Island People, 1965, p. 178/179.)

So it is true that they


were good smiths and trade their weapons (swords etc) in South-East Asia even after Satsuma invasion

but only until 1699, and before that it were often ceremonial swords, as Kerr pointed out.


wealthy okinawans after invasion had right to have swords and even could travel to Satsuma to repair them!

Yes, and as I wrote previously, Ryukyu Pechin class people, among them people like Sakugawa and Chikin Kouragwa, went to Satsuma to study Jigen Ryu, Sokon Matsumura is even said to have gained a Menkyo in Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (if this is true; I do not know).

It is indicated that Ryukyu Bushi from a certain rank were welcomed, maybe even invited by Satsuma's Shimazu, to learn martial arts. But for which cause? The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten tells the story of Jigen Ryu being taught to farmers, merchants and others as a disguised method. They wanted some sort of "disguised defense-line" against potential attackers, such like European powers. I mentioned this before I think.

But I have never seen a picture and never heard of an account other than the above mentioned of Matsumura, in which is told about Ryukyu people bearing swords in the time between Satuma invasion in 1609 up to the abolishion of the Ryukyu Kingdom and the founding of Okinawa prefecture in 1879 or so.

Last but not least:


Of course, I know Rainer Seibert. He told that you had discussion between each other about Yamanni-ryu license of Taira Shinken.

Rainer and me discussed Yamanni Ryu lineage because we were both interested. I never never never said that Taira had Yamanni Ryu license... There never were Menkyo, as Oshiro himself stated.

My standpoint of view (I think it is a fact) is that in Ryukyu Kobudo the heritage of Chinen Sanda was handed down by 5 direct disciples of Chinen Sanda:

Higa Raisuke
Higa Jinsaburo
Higa Seiichiro
Akamine Yohei
and Yabiku Moden,

and that no other linage could claim that (I calculated that this makes about 68 percent of all notable students of Chinen Sanda; that was hard for me...).

From the above mentioned things I derived my question why it is said, that Yamanni Ryu was a secret art and nearly died out.

Akamine Eisuke nearly trained 20 years under four of the above mentioned direct students of Chinen Sanda before he met Taira Shinken. So, what's the problem??? Don't you think he mastered the Kata?

In Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is stated, that Yabiku Moden was Chinen Sanda's most appreciated student, whatever that means. As a historian, you should recognize that.

So, maybe it was not Yamanni Ryu, but it was Chinen Sanda's Kata (is there a difference?)

And I am absolutely convinced that this point of view of mine is completely positive in it's intention and essence. You may have already get a glimpse of how I use to debate; it is not very comfortable. It's the same love ( yes, it is love, nothing else) for detail as in Kata.

So please be patient with this poor old child and forgive me my faults. Later (yes later is good) I will pay for it all... ;)

In fear of your reply

Andreas Quast

Shikiyanaka
22nd August 2003, 18:02
And what about my Matsu Higa and Hama Higa theory???

Ok, it was a small step for me, and a big step for mankind... but was that really all... I have a feeling that you ignore me... it is a kind of punishment, isn't it??? ;)

Ok, let's open some different battlefields so everyone will forget of that great achievement of that odd - what's his name ? Andrea??? Oh, he's from Italy. (Yes, and my girlfriend is from Sweden!)

Andreas Quast

Rob Alvelais
22nd August 2003, 18:25
Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
[B]Rainer and me discussed Yamanni Ryu lineage because we were both interested. I never never never said that Taira had Yamanni Ryu license... There never were Menkyo, as Oshiro himself stated.

My standpoint of view (I think it is a fact) is that in Ryukyu Kobudo the heritage of Chinen Sanda was handed down by 5 direct disciples of Chinen Sanda:

Higa Raisuke
Higa Jinsaburo
Higa Seiichiro
Akamine Yohei
and Yabiku Moden,

and that no other linage could claim that (I calculated that this makes about 68 percent of all notable students of Chinen Sanda; that was hard for me...).



What happened to Masami Chinen?

Rob

Shikiyanaka
22nd August 2003, 18:52
Dear Rob,


What happened to Masami Chinen?

Good question. In fact it was simply not part of the subject, as you know. Notwithstandingly now I need to explain.

I will quote myself:


My standpoint of view (I think it is a fact) is that in Ryukyu Kobudo the heritage of Chinen Sanda etc.

I talked about Ryukyu Kobudo of Taira / Akamine, not Yamanni Ryu (!?!?),

and again quoting myself:


and that no other linage could claim that (I calculated that this makes about 68 percent of all notable students of Chinen Sanda; that was hard for me...).

I admit I was wrong... correct is 62,5 %. This means that 100% would be 8 people. So there is enough room for Chinen Masami, Oshiro Chojo and Chitose Tsuyoshi. This, however, is not my lineage, but rather from the BRD, 1978, p 141. Got the phone number of Watatani Kyoshi??? Ask him, I'am just a medium.:rolleyes:

Andreas Quast

Pavel Dolgachov
26th August 2003, 13:01
This means that she told me she knows you; it was not a question of mine.
I see.


Yes, and as I wrote previously, Ryukyu Pechin class people, among them people like Sakugawa and Chikin Kouragwa, went to Satsuma to study Jigen Ryu, Sokon Matsumura is even said to have gained a Menkyo in Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (if this is true; I do not know).
As I know, it's true. This Menkyo was recorded as many other.


Rainer and me discussed Yamanni Ryu lineage because we were both interested. I never never never said that Taira had Yamanni Ryu license...
Probably I made a mistake. My bad English.. It's always so.

Akamine Eisuke nearly trained 20 years under four of the above mentioned direct students of Chinen Sanda before he met Taira Shinken.
Is it true? 20 years. Is this number is correct? As I know, there are two dates exist about beginning of kobudo practise of Akamine. Some people claim that he began to practise after the WW2. Where is a true?
Ok, it was a small step for me, and a big step for mankind... but was that really all... I have a feeling that you ignore me... it is a kind of punishment, isn't it???
Hm... I can't understand. Sorry.

Shikiyanaka
26th August 2003, 13:54
Hello Pavel,

thank you for answering.


Is it true? 20 years. Is this number is correct? As I know, there are two dates exist about beginning of kobudo practise of Akamine. Some people claim that he began to practise after the WW2. Where is a true?

I will have to check my files at home for exact details on that point; I will submit them later.

It is very interesting for me to know in which source it is claimed that Matsumura S˘kon had a Menkyo in Jigen Ryű Kenjutsu. If it was a Menkyo Kaiden he should at least have been noted in some of the official lineages of the Jigen Ryű. Would you be able to point out the source for such information on Jigen ryu? Or was it a secondary source?


Ok, it was a small step for me, and a big step for mankind... but was that really all... I have a feeling that you ignore me... it is a kind of punishment, isn't it???

The original thread is going to dissappear, I was afraid. All else stated here is already known, or at least agreed upon ;)

But this is really good topic. Because it means that a further piece of the puzzle of the lineage of Ryukyu Kobudo has been constructed - without giving all details it simply means that
Hama Higa 1663 - 1738 = Matsu Higa!
Hama Higa 1790 - 1870= Matsu Higa!

Weather the name Matsu Higa has been retraced from Hama Higa 1790 - 1870 to Hama Higa 1663 - 1738; I do not know.

Hama Higa Pechin 1663 - 1738 performed Sai and Tode in front of the 5th Tokugawa Sh˘gun. As Matsu Higa is the nickname of this Hama Higa Pechin (as I assume) and one Matsu Higa living around 1700 brought the Tunfa to Ryukyus, this Matsu Higa must have been the Hama Higa Pechin 1663 - 1738. And that's why it is indicated that he was also the one who originated the Hama Higa Kata series, which - in this theorie - would have been also traditioned under the name of Matsu Higa (if they changed or which way they went I do not know).

Anyway, as one Matsu Higa is said to have been the teacher of Takahara Pechin, this Matsu Higa = Hama Higa theory would in turn simply mean that:

Hama Higa Pechin 1663 - 1738 --> Takahara Pechin --> Sakugawa Satunushi Pechin etc.!!!!

What do you think???

Pavel Dolgachov
26th August 2003, 14:08
I will have to check my files at home for exact details on that point; I will submit them later.
I remember this. Some people think that Akamine began to study kobudo before WW2, other - after. It's not the main topic. It's just about his abilities to study.


It is very interesting for me to know in which source it is claimed that Matsumura S˘kon had a Menkyo in Jigen Ryű Kenjutsu.
Russian MA historian Gorbylyov studied this question well. And he has sources. I will send you his e-mail by private messages to discuss with him.


What do you think???
I need to read your book. :)

Shikiyanaka
26th August 2003, 14:19
Hello Pavel,

is it Andrej Gorbylyov?!? :)
(Yes, please send me his e-mail)


I need to read your book.

I heard that Katherine may come to Kaliningrad end of 2003. If this is true, I am sure she will bring you one copy...

Andreas Quast

Pavel Dolgachov
26th August 2003, 14:47
is it Andrej Gorbylyov?!?
Yes. Do you know him? see his e-mail in PMs.


I heard that Katherine may come to Kaliningrad end of 2003. If this is true, I am sure she will bring you one copy...
Now I think it will be too difficult for me. I have some problems with a place to train and my groops. I'm not sure about her visit.

Shikiyanaka
26th August 2003, 14:54
Thanks Pavel for the e-mail. Now I will have to learn Russian... Martial arts mean to be multilingual, I guess. But that's only fair. One day you will all need to learn German, I swear... :p

Pavel Dolgachov
26th August 2003, 15:29
Short quote from article about Matsumura Sokon (sorry for my bad English):
"Father of sensation was Nagamine Shoshin, okinawan karate master amd Matsubayashi-ryu founder. In august 1942 he visited Matsumura's grand grand daughter home in Naha to explore a genealogy of Matsumura's family. In buddist altar's box he found a menkejo - masters license - of Matsumura Sokon in Jigen-ryu kenjutsu and coloured peace of paper with some words. These papers were granted to matsumura by Jigen-ryu master from Satsuma Ishuin Yashichiro. <...> Nagamine made a copy of this documents".

But these documents were destroyes as a whole home during WW2.


One day you will all need to learn German, I swear... Already began :D

Pavel Dolgachov
26th August 2003, 15:43
Short quote from article about Matsumura Sokon (sorry for my bad English):
"Father of sensation was Nagamine Shoshin, okinawan karate master amd Matsubayashi-ryu founder. In august 1942 he visited Matsumura's grand grand daughter home in Naha to explore a genealogy of Matsumura's family. In buddist altar's box he found a menkejo - masters license - of Matsumura Sokon in Jigen-ryu kenjutsu and coloured peace of paper with verses. These papers were granted to matsumura by Jigen-ryu master from Satsuma Ishuin Yashichiro. <...> Nagamine made a copy of virses.

<...> [in 1834 Matsumura had to return to Okinawa.]Before his departure Ishuin Yashichiro decided to give him techniques of highest, fourth level (Unki - Light among clouds) of Jigen-ryu and grant him menkyo and verses by him.<...>
Matsumura studied in Kagoshima probably 2 years and 2 monthes.
But these documents were destroyes as a whole home during WW2. Nagamine also wrote that Matsumura was at Satsuma once more but there aren't any documents about it.


One day you will all need to learn German, I swear... Already began :D

Shikiyanaka
26th August 2003, 19:38
Hello Pavel,

great work, thank you.

伊集院矢七郎 must be the Kanji for Ijűin or Ishűin Yashichir˘; unfortunately I couldn't find it in BRD or BRJ lexica. But I will try to find out more.

Concerning Akamine Eisuke: he must have started in 1942 to train under Higa Seiichirō, Higa Raisuke, Higa Jisanburō und Akamine Yōhei. In 1959 Taira Shinken came to their D˘j˘, so I rounded it up to 20 years... ;)

Shikiyanaka
26th August 2003, 19:54
Pavel,

Matsumura is also interesting for the assumed lineage of Hama Higa Pechin. Because Sakugawa is also said to have studied in Jigen Ryű - wether it was Kenjutsu or B˘ Odori. Thus the Japanese style Bujutsu would have entered this lineage which later became the Sh˘rin Ryű, as opposed to Sh˘rei Ryű. It is clear that this would have had an influence upon that which we today consider as differences between Sh˘rin and Sh˘rei.

Pavel Dolgachov
27th August 2003, 08:51
Because Sakugawa is also said to have studied in Jigen Ryű - wether it was Kenjutsu or B˘ Odori.
Yes. It's interesting. Murakami Katsumi wrote tale in his book about sai-jutsu about Yara Chatan (if my memory doesn't fails me). He think that Yara studied Jigen-ryu (jo-jutsu) too.

Thus the Japanese style Bujutsu would have entered this lineage which later became the Sh˘rin Ryű, as opposed to Sh˘rei Ryű.
As Gorbylyov discovered, okinawan karate idea "Ikken hisatsu" came from Jigen-ryu. Matsumura is responcible to bring this idea to Okinawa.
You mean differences between Shurite and Tomarite from one side and and Nahate from other???

Pavel Dolgachov
27th August 2003, 08:53
伊集院矢七郎 must be the Kanji for Ijűin or Ishűin Yashichir˘; unfortunately I couldn't find it in BRD or BRJ lexica. But I will try to find out more. Patrick McCarthy mentioned him in Bubishi: The Bible of Karate.

Concerning Akamine Eisuke: he must have started in 1942 to train under Higa Seiichirō, Higa Raisuke, Higa Jisanburō und Akamine Yōhei. In 1959 Taira Shinken came to their D˘j˘, so I rounded it up to 20 years... ;) I see. ;)

Shikiyanaka
27th August 2003, 09:31
Hi Pavel,

I also heard elsewhere that Matsumura was responsible for linking Jigen ryű with Okinawan skills.


You mean differences between Shurite and Tomarite from one side and and Nahate from other???

Yes, in fact I mean that it is usually described as the differences of origin concerning northern and southern Chinese styles. It would mean that Sh˘rin (written as "Shaolin") styles were already early also exposed to Japanese Bujutsu ideas and concepts.

So obviously it wasn't only the differences between nothern and southern Chinese Quanfa (or Chűgoku Kemp˘), which affected the Sh˘rin (Tomari, Shuri) and Sh˘rei (Naha) development.

And whereas many Sh˘rin styles had Kobudo in their curicullum from early on, in Shorei Ryu's Goju Ryu lineage this was not the case. However, it was Kamiya Jinsei - a Goju Ryu man, pointed out by Miyagi as a noted teacher of Karate on Okinawa - who contributed Kobudo Kata to the research of Taira Shinken. Concerning the time period and quality of contribution Kamiya Jinsei did not stand back behind Kanegawa no Gibu and Mabuni Kenwa, not to forget Yabiku Moden (also Yabiku Moden is one of the most well known persons in Kobudo history, this doesn't mean that others were more secret or more sophisticated. Beyound what is known and agreed about him anyway, Yabiku was the one who "saved" the whole category of Chikin Kata nearly by himself).

Shikiyanaka
27th August 2003, 09:34
Hi Pavel,


Patrick McCarthy mentioned him in Bubishi: The Bible of Karate.

Yes, I remember, and I think he also gave the source for this. Need to look it up.