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Sidarta
10th November 2003, 02:30
I have purchased the sickle shown in the picture below at the gardening section of a hardware store the other day.

I did not find it by accident, I was actually loking for it there since I have seen a few of my dojo mates using this exact brand (simply a standard industrially manufactured tool). Most instructors I have seen usually perform with more thick and apparently heavier Kama. Some of them use to carry tools exactly as the one in the picture for semminars or keep them in the dojo's closet to be used by those who do not have their own yet. Possibly because these are very low-priced so any damage they suffer would not mean a big loss.

By the way, it costs less than US$3,00 each.

So, is it common for you (your dojo, your association, etc.) to use these type of tool in practice or would you rather use the ones strictly designed to be used as weapons? Does the kama shown in the picture look decent? I just wanted to know how usual is that in other places.

John Lindsey
10th November 2003, 02:51
Is there a reason why you need a sharp one? This style is very light, and maybe not the best choice for training. Though I do not train with such a weapon, I would not suggest using this style, but maybe our other members might have other views...

Sidarta
10th November 2003, 03:31
Not at all. The only reason I got the sharp one was because it was the only type available. Actually I do not think there are dull sickles being sold in hardware stores. If I could find a dull edged one with such a low price that would definatelly be my choice.

People usually wrap the edges with some kind of Scotch tape. I think most people who use the kind of tools I put in the picture do it because of the low prices and availability.

cheers.


Originally posted by John Lindsey
Is there a reason why you need a sharp one? This style is very light, and maybe not the best choice for training. Though I do not train with such a weapon, I would not suggest using this style, but maybe our other members might have other views...

Hank Irwin
17th November 2003, 16:09
How they are made and react to combat makes the difference. Starting with real kama at a beginner level is fine, just wrap the edges with electrical tape or duct tape. The thickness of the shaft makes a difference, and the way it is fashioned. The way the blade is inserted in to the shaft makes a big difference also. I have seen many come apart. I make mine with piined tangs. The tangs go 3" into the shaft. The photo you show looks pretty good. Maybe I can find one of mine. I have seen kama bought on Okinawa at a farm store that were very good, very sharp also. But at $3.00 a pair, I think I would buy a few too.:D

Hank Irwin
17th November 2003, 16:28
This one is called village kama, not quite as long of blades, 7" to be exact. Made of carbon steel, very sharp too. I made the shafts out of Brazilian hardwood. The top of shafts are wraped with yute. It serves as decoration persay over brass pins.

Sidarta
17th November 2003, 19:10
Thanks for the input Mr. Irwin!

As you mentioned, I think the price is the main reason why people choose to buy the kama I showed. So, having them lost, worn out or broken means no big deal. And apparently these tools get the job done. And yes, beginners usually wrap it with some sort of thick scotch tape.

I have in mind that these tools are pretty decent but not perfect for kama practice. I think that because instructors or senior students apparently prefer to perform with other types and/or models. One funny thing is that I thought these guys mostly used kama specifically designed for martial arts practice. So the other day I was going through my teacher's locker (with his permission, of course) and grabbed one of what I thought to be one of his specially designed kama, one I know he brought from Okinawa himself. I noticed there was this tiny sticker on it that said "*something I cannot remember* - hardware store". Apparently the use of actual tools as kama is pretty common in other places too.

cheers,

Hank Irwin
18th November 2003, 04:59
Well, that's what the kama were, a farming tool. I think adjustments came about by way of using them for combat, like the thickness of shaft for contact, and shape of handle so you always know where blade is. I don't know if the bigger blade was by way of combat or not, but could see benefits in both areana for longer blades. As a farm tool I would imagine adjustments were made also, like carving/shaping fingergrips for ease of handling in the fields. Most farming kama have only bladed edge on one side which would not be efficient enough in a real weapons fight, but if that's all you had I guess the phrase"It's not the weapon but the wealder" would come into play.:D
Either way, good tool, deadly weapon.

E.elemental
2nd May 2004, 23:40
Well it all depends on what to do with them. As for use in Kata I think they will work just fine. And the price sounded very reasonable to, almost that I felt like bying a pair. But that would be a vaste since I havent my training with Kama. Still I own i pair of Shureido Kama, these pair I do use in my little garden.

By the way I have looked for a pair that is suited for Kata practise but still would be suitable for use in Kumite, if anyone has a link to such a pair of weapons I would be keen to see them.

:)

Gene Williams
3rd May 2004, 01:10
You need to train with sharp weapons. Toy weapons for toy martial artists:nono:

E.elemental
3rd May 2004, 01:41
Do you mean the Kama mentioned in the first post or did you refer to my pair from Shureido? I know that my Shureido Kama are to fragile but I dont know anyone that use them to Kumite therefore. What brand do you suggest could meet the demands of both Kata and Kumite? I have sees some from a company in England called Reimondo, I dont know howewer if they are any better.

:)

Victor
3rd May 2004, 02:56
Hi,

The first kama pictured were exactly like the kama being sold by Fuse Kise at a seminar about 15 years ago. They were the sort the average Okinawan's kept around their house to use in the garden.

I've seen various sorts, and even have one set with blades that the backs are a quarter inch thick (and would do a good job carving through my car door).

All of them require different technique in usage.

I would suspect, except from whatever deveoped on Okinawan from tradition, they were not really used just trained with and whatever was at hand was used. Metal was at a premium on Okinawa as I understand it.

The kama developed as a martial weapon in Japan is a different class of weapon though similar in essence.

More telling are the styles of usage. From what I've observed the Okinawan systems tend to use kama with little hand shifting of the kama (which always seemed very reasonable if one was really going to use them). On the other hand the kama I studied (from an Indonesian Shotokan practitioner) involve very complex kama shifting. Frankly beyond my true potential but not my instructors. Of course if you can do it and make them sing, you're in a different dimension (but then all his small weapons (including tanto) involve inredible handling and shifting techniques.

I remember a few years ago it was reported the Okinawan police were asking instrutors to stop teaching kama as the kids were getting into fights with them (yep kama and teenagers, what the blades are really for, sadly).

All of the instructors I've seen only teach kata to senior dans' and only with live blades (beginning bery slowly for the beginner will find they will be bit as i did too). They don't accpet any other form of trainingi is rational. {Scary rational kama isn't it), but the logic is unassailable. Kama is very potentially dangerious to ones self. If you practice with fake or covered blades you won't develop enough respect and that coudl killl or maim you if the real usage allowed you to slip into a bad habit.

Sure very few use answer today but you wonder if those cuke kids competing in kobudo with kama would live if the blades were very real anway.

And if I remember one word of caution, didn't Hohen Soken lose his sight in one eye becasue his kama on a leader missed? That's as troubling as a competitor I saw sink one through is foot or a freind 25 years ago try spinning them in his hand and sink it through the flesh on his arm (but I guess we should say that's ok cause it's only a flesh wound.

So we have the quandry of kama. An excpetionally dangerious potential, that nobody can really point to as being used in actual combat on any regular basis on Okinawa except as kata training.... and still I train with them and dive when my aging fingers can't move fast enough.

O' the ecstacy of the arts.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

ps I've only passed what I studied, the Chosen no Kama series (sho and dai) to one instructor I've developed too. Am I keeping my instructors traditions or am i just prudent regardling law suits?

shisochin#1
3rd May 2004, 03:14
I have a set of very sharp kama that I pratice kata with. I will also tell you that one day ended up cutting the back of my leg and ended up getting some stitches. The fun part of the thing was sitting for about an hour deciding on what to tell the doctor. Everyone at the hospitle got a kick out of it aswell as Shihan Williams and everyone at the Milledgeville dojo. I ahdv the name of kamasutra for quite a while. live and learn.

Hank Irwin
3rd May 2004, 12:29
I make wooden kama for practice, but as Victorsan said, will give you false sense of security. But some Namby Pambies need them, otherwise they would cut themselves apart. Kama is one of the last weapons you learn in our system. Victorsan, where did you hear this about Soken O'Sensei? Is first for me. Wouldn't surprise me, the video I have of Soken O'Sensei doing kamakusari is awe striking to say the least. First thing I thought was WOW!! then I wondered what would happen if he slipped just slightly. I remember watching Perry Sensei at a seminar doing kama on a rope. Very impressive, had to have dull blades though, otherwise those whips around his thigh might have been leathal. Kama is for the advanced practitioner. Takes a mature mind to handle what is coming. I remember he told us about one of his contempories doing kama on a rope for a tournement,...stuck it in the back of his neck. I have cut the knuckle ends midway of my fingers off quite a few times when I was a little younger. Scarey thing kama they are. I have seen many different types of kama, the longest blades coming from China. The one's that I make are for kumite, but should be practiced with on a regular basis. Children should not run with sharp things in their hands!! Think Mom said that. Hahahaha!!!

Gene Williams
3rd May 2004, 21:40
Originally posted by shisochin#1
I have a set of very sharp kama that I pratice kata with. I will also tell you that one day ended up cutting the back of my leg and ended up getting some stitches. The fun part of the thing was sitting for about an hour deciding on what to tell the doctor. Everyone at the hospitle got a kick out of it aswell as Shihan Williams and everyone at the Milledgeville dojo. I ahdv the name of kamasutra for quite a while. live and learn.

That name we gave you was "kamasuture", Grasshopper:D

shisochin#1
3rd May 2004, 21:42
oh sorry rum shots make me type funny ....... and then trying to run a kama kata man dont try that at home.....

Victor
4th May 2004, 00:56
Hi Hank,

It's been quite a while since I read that about Hohen Soken and his eye and the kama. Unfortunately I can't pull the source out of memory (likely burried in many records in my computer files somewhere but I'll be durned if I can think of where right now. As I wasn't there I hope I'm not repeating a fiction.

Kama on leaders are very dangerous (just as Chinese 3 section staff, rope dart and steel whip are too). I've seen enough hits in tournaments over the years to belive it could be a true story.

I don't do the leader kama, but the versions I do are so complex in their handling that I have enough fear in my hands when I use them.

Did you ever note how the 'modern' kama competitor holds the handles just below the blades and don't shift them. Safer for their kicks, of course I one was really going to fight with them they likely wouldn't shift them either (unless they were greased lightening like Tris Sutrisno is).

Now you've got me thinking how to track down that Soken quote... eventually I'll stumble across the source.

Sorry I don't have it on tap.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

E.elemental
4th May 2004, 15:32
I just felt like sending a picture of this Kama, it`s from the same brand as my Bo which I am very pleased with. I think this Kama could be good...

Does this look like a good Kama to you? :D

Hank Irwin
9th May 2004, 21:47
Patsan, are they peened or is that screw mounts I see? Robsan, I am in San Fran, got my first day off today. Was dede mou BTW the first few days, should be off till Wed. Going down the street tomorrow morning on Columbus St. to do some Taiji with the locals. Been a long time since I was last here, city is still beautiful, changed a lot since the early 70's, but still nice to be here after such a long time away.

E.elemental
10th May 2004, 21:34
I am almost certain that they use screw mounts. Because I know that you can change the blade of the weapon. I think the handle and the blade are sold separately.

Though I have not planned on buying a new pair of Kama this year, maybe I can tell you something else when I decide to buy a pair. Note that I only have done Kihon-exercise with Kama, so I am definately no expert. ;)

Hank Irwin
11th May 2004, 07:16
Too bad, would be a mistake for combat. The blades looks real nice though. Best bet for kumite would be real thing, solid peened tang.

E.elemental
29th June 2004, 20:16
If we talk kobudo-weapons in general..

Even though I am fairly satisfied with the weapons I have I must ask anyway. What company would you say makes the BEST (nice feeling, look ok, but most importent should not brake easily)weapons, not saying it has to be the same company. I am curious..


Bo, which I can use both for Kata and Kumite. Today I have a Reimondo Kumite-bo, this is excellent in most aspects. But i wonder if you got any other opinions in this matter.

Sai, today I use Shureido-Sai, they are the best so far I have tried.


Tonfa, I have Shureido-Tonfa, they are definately good, but I am still not really pleased with them.


Kama, Also Shureido, but I think they would brake if used in Kumite.

Nunchaku, Shureido.. again.. Good and traditional but little to small. In the future I will buy Reimondo-Nunchaku, since the company has quality stuff.


Besides this, got any idea any other quality-rigid Kobudo weapons, of course they should be reasonbly priced. But thats not what is most important to me. I`d rather save money for somethingreally good. I already now of crane-mountin, which is said to be very good.


Tricky question maybe? :o




http://www.reimondo.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Here is reimondos site, if you have any comments please post it here.

TimothyScott
30th June 2004, 02:14
I just have to mention that those kama look very nice. Thanks for the link to the Reimondo site!http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif

I've already sent off a query to them asking if they make custom sized kama and if they would be able to make the handles out of moradillo / brazilian rosewood. I hope so.

Shikiyanaka
30th June 2004, 08:24
The Reimondo kama indeed look very good, and the shape of the handle is fine.

Aside from the ones build by weapon makers there are still the "normal" Japanese kama intended to be used as tools in the garden and such, which I think are interesting also.


http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/718153.jpg
Grass sickle 1

http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/718151.jpg
Grass sickle 2

http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/718119.jpg
Grass sickle 3

http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/718156.jpg
Nobori

http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/718152.jpg
Atsu Kama

http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/718150.jpg

And take a look at the Rochin (tan-yari):
http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/710094.jpg
Mokume Yarri-Kanna

http://www.dick.biz/isroot/dick/Files/AbbildungGross/710095.jpg
Two-hand Yarri-Kanna

If you are interested in fine Japanese tools, take a look at
http://www.dick-gmbh.de/
----------
Regards

TimothyScott
30th June 2004, 12:41
After some quick searching, I came up with this site out of Seattle, WA:

http://www.ehardwicks.com/product_line/cats/gardencut_pruning.htm

The kama here look like the ones on the German site.

E.elemental
30th June 2004, 16:17
Nice and interesting pictures, the Nobori resembles a sort of Jingama also used to cut grass. I must say since I use my Shureido-Kama in my garden its probably not the best steel, since I must constantly sharp them to keep the edges sharp. Ordering from germany sounds lika an interesting idea. :) Or if i decide to order the Reimondo Kama, perhaps the steel used in them are better? And the Rochin looksn interesting to.. in the pictures Shikiyanaka sent.

By the way, here in Sweden the sun shines!

:cool:

TimothyScott: When you recieve an answer from Reimondo perhaps you could tell us?

Hank Irwin
30th June 2004, 22:01
The Reimondo site looked good except no real photos, looks like drawings. I am prejudice when it comes to buki, I make my own. Have been for a little while. Peter Carbone's Sai are the best I have seen till I start forging my own...hahaha! Hey.. this forum is almost starting to sound like "Victory Garden" by the way. Yuk! Yuk!:D

E.elemental
1st July 2004, 00:02
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
The Reimondo site looked good except no real photos, looks like drawings. ... Hey.. this forum is almost starting to sound like "Victory Garden" by the way. Yuk! Yuk!:D

I have not thought about that, I think they are real photos perhaps with exception of the bo. :)

And for all of us that dont know what "Victory Garden" is.. what is it? :D

Who is Peter Carbone?

TimothyScott
1st July 2004, 00:17
Peter Carbone runs the Weapons Connection site and makes custom weapons:

http://www.weaponsconnection.com/

Here's a link to a pic of the sai that I bought from him:

http://karate.dhs.org/graphics/_sai.jpg

E.elemental
1st July 2004, 00:26
Oh stupid me.. :o

I know of the weaponsconnection, I just didnt now of Mr Carbone by name. Now I know that everyone I have heard of saying that the weapons are of very high quality, but still I wonder.. just looking at the picture they seem a bit heavy at the tip? Or put it this way, if we just are talking balance, are they better or comparible with Sai from Shureido. :)

E.elemental
1st July 2004, 10:44
What are the size-limitations when posting pictures here? I just sent a small one because I know that there are some sort of limit... anyway they show Reimondo Kumite-Kama. :)

Aha, now I saw what the limitations are. So I think I can throw in another also.. :D

E.elemental
1st July 2004, 10:47
A bit embarresing, I could not include the pictures in my first reply so here they come.. seperatly..:o


And the second picture were wrong somehow so this is it! ;)

E.elemental
1st July 2004, 22:26
Another one... :D

TimothyScott
2nd July 2004, 12:01
Originally posted by E.elemental

TimothyScott: When you recieve an answer from Reimondo perhaps you could tell us?

Here are the answers I got from Reimondo. My questions were: 1) Do they ship to the US? 2) Could I order a custom sized pair of kama? 3) Could I have the handles made out of moradillo / brazillian rosewood?




Hello Tim,

Nice to hear from someone across the water again. Yes I do ship to the
U.S. Shipping costs can sometimes be a pain but thatís the U.K for you.
The answer to your second question is again yes. It,s what our company
is all about. If you send me the spec I will do the rest.
With regards to the type of timber I would have to check with my
supplier, and as long as they have it and the cost is the same it should
not be a problem.

I hope that answers all your questions but if there is anything else
please do not hesitate to contact me.

I look forward to receiving your order.

Best Regards

Ray Wilks
Reimondo Martial Arts Weapons

Hank Irwin
2nd July 2004, 22:05
I am prejudice when it comes to weaponry, I make my own. Everyone seems to like them. They always ask if I could make more. Mr. Carbone's sai are very nice,what he calls Agena Energy sai!?? They are a little heavy too. Many Okinawan Sensei have purchased them from him. He claims to have been schooled in Okinawa by Sai making Master... I make many different types of weaponry, mostly related to Okinawan Kobudo, but I also make a lot of Chinese weaponry, and what ever strikes me fancy. Always in the "Den." :D

TimothyScott
3rd July 2004, 01:09
Hank,

Are you offering your services? If so, got any photos of your work and price estimates? Just curious. Do you do any metalworking? I think the next thing I'm going to get (outside of kama) is a pair of manji sai.

I agree with you, the Carbone sai are heavy. If nothing else, I figure they're good for arm conditioning! :)

chizikunbo
3rd July 2004, 14:41
Originally posted by TimothyScott
Hank,

Are you offering your services? If so, got any photos of your work and price estimates? Just curious. Do you do any metalworking? I think the next thing I'm going to get (outside of kama) is a pair of manji sai.

I agree with you, the Carbone sai are heavy. If nothing else, I figure they're good for arm conditioning! :)
Hi tim, first off the Carbone sai are great! I love their manji sai, they mesure up and give shureido a run for their money. But I cannot stress enough how good the Oyata sai are, they are quite different, Though I have not used a pair of the Oyata Manji Sai, I have used the Oyata Sai and they are my favorite, they weight is perfect, they are balanced beyond belief and they are the Sai Taika designed years ago and has been using ever since, the prongs are slightly closer to the hand, I love them, they are supposed to be the closest thing to the original sai that exists, but But Carbone claims this as well so I dont know. If you are interested just get ahlod of Sarhar at Ryu te supply, he will happily answer any quetions that you may have concerning them.
the store is at http://members.rogers.com/ryu_te_supply
--josh

Hank Irwin
3rd July 2004, 15:32
I didn't realize Oyata Sensei had this site, was very nice. The sai looked real nice, I would buy them just because they came from Oyata Sensei. I have a site listed under my name. Drop by and take a look please. I also have a brief summary of my visit to see Coffman Sensei in Marco Island. It had been a long time in coming. Stop by, drop me an email, there is a link. domo :cool:

chizikunbo
3rd July 2004, 17:47
Ill check it out, thanks.
yes Taika Oyata has a site and an official ryu te site will be up soon (http://ryute.com) Cant wait. I love those sai though, they are great!

Hank Irwin
4th July 2004, 06:35
Cool, let me know if I may be of service. All my buki are custom made for each individual. Have many customers. domo

chizikunbo
4th July 2004, 14:54
okay thanks!

Doug Daulton
4th July 2004, 21:54
Lots of good input here, I'll just throw in my understanding from the Taira --> Akamine line. As always, Dometrich Sensei is the last word on this, not me. :)

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=&postid=242351


Above is the kama shown way back at the beginning of this thread. In my experience, this is the weapon/tool used by most practitioners. As the kama (at least in Ryukyu Kobudo) is derived from an everyday tool, it makes sense to train with one. I have seen some heavier duty kama used by folks claiming to study an Okinawan Kobudo system. In most cases, these are more akin to the kusarigama of mainland koryu, complete with hand/fingerguards. In my experience, this is simply not right.

I have never seen a legitimate Okinawan practitioner use kusarigama-style kama in keiko or embu.. As I understand it, kusarigama was a battlefield and/or duelist weapon, thus the heavier weight, fingerguard and chain leader. So, use of this style of kama in an Okinawan-based waza is, in my opinion, an unnecessary affectation. Similarly, I have seen some modern variants on the basic kama which have holes drilled in the blade to make them whistle (c'mon!) and even a "cutout" of sort where the blade meets the handle. These "cutout" kama are dull and the cutout is used, for all things, to spin the kama around the fingers like some fancy Old West pistol play. Yikes!!!

So, if one is serious about learning kama as a weapon in the Okinawan tradition, stick to the plain old hardware store kama or a handmade variant in the same model/form. And, if you are a raw beginner, please tape up the edges so you don't lose a pound of flesh and fingers.

Finally, for bit of perspective, Kama is a Godan requirement in the Taira --> Akamine line (as well as the Taira --> Inoue line as well I think). That is how dangerous it is to take up and how difficult it is to master.

chizikunbo
5th July 2004, 00:08
I think kama are very dangerous and should be learned with a wooden or hard rubber blade first, then a bladed kama should be used.

Hank Irwin
5th July 2004, 14:29
Kama is definetly not for the novice, in fact most weapons are not for the beginner period.. The kama I make are not bulky like many I have seen, neither are they so light that you can only do kata with them. Wrapping the blades for a starter is a good thing. They are more dangerous for the user at first when learning. All my blades come with a very sharp edge. If you are scared of the weapon, good, you should be, even as a farm tool you can cut yourself pretty good. Farm tools that took the form of fighting tools also underwent changes to a degree. Had to, kama for instance, farm type has blade edge only on one side, for combat this was less efficient, so changes occured, also length of blade too.

chizikunbo
5th July 2004, 16:57
I would like to know if the notch in the back fo the blad of a kama was original for fighting againts staffs, or if it was a farm tool design:D

TimothyScott
5th July 2004, 18:01
Just a guess -- if you let your hand slide up the length of kama handle, the notch is so that you don't lop off a finger.

Doug Daulton
5th July 2004, 18:15
Originally posted by chizikunbo
I would like to know if the notch in the back fo the blad of a kama was original for fighting againts staffs, or if it was a farm tool design:D http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=&postid=303342
Taking an educated guess, the notch shown above is to protect the index finger when the kama is gripped all the way up towards the blade for greater leverage during in close cutting in the field (low to the ground, heavy, base stalks/cane). So, the notch is likely an artifact from farming use.

That said, the notch could theoretically be used to trap/pin a bo or other weapon, but I've never heard of that specific use for the notch. In any case, this notch is not the "cutout" to which I referred earlier. While located in a similar place, the cutout is much bigger, smoother and forms a perfect circle. It has no discernable combat value.

chizikunbo
5th July 2004, 18:43
Originally posted by TimothyScott
Just a guess -- if you let your hand slide up the length of kama handle, the notch is so that you don't lop off a finger.
That soundes reasonable:D
Thanks to the both of you for clearing that up:D

E.elemental
6th July 2004, 22:13
The cutout on the Kama is said to prevent the weapon to cut into an other weapon such as the Bo. If this would happen the Kama could get stuck leaving the user with just one or none.


I have not tryed this so I cant say if this is actually working, but thats part of the idea anyway. The other advantage is when changing grip as been said earlier. So you just can drop it and go to tokushu-mochi without the risk of cutting yourself. :)

TimothyScott
7th July 2004, 18:49
Here is some more information from Ray Wilks of Reimondo:



Cannot obtain moradillo but can get the brazilian rosewood you
mentioned. Just a thought what about purple heart?

The shipping cost is £25.00, which may seem quite high to you guys in
the states, but postage in this country is crap cost wise. If you know
someone who has an account with UPS or similar carrier they may be able
to pick them up for you much cheaper.

If you wanted them in purple heart I would make an extra charge of
£5.00, if you wanted them in Brazilian Rose wood I would have to charge
an extra £15.00 as this timber is imported in small qty's and you pay a
preminm to get it in certain lengths and thickness's. So to make a pair
of handles I may have to have a bigger piece than I actually require. I
hope that makes sense.

So in :

Brazilian Rose wood £80.00 plus postage.

Purple heart £75.00 plus postage.


Yikes. That's kinda spendy.

E.elemental
3rd November 2004, 11:27
Hello! :)

I have been searching for some good steel for making Kata Kama, all of the answers got a bit expensive. So now I have almost given up. But as mentioned earlier in this thread sickles meant to cut grass could do just as good. I have found these. Especially the G-3105 and 04.

http://www.hidatool.com/gardenpage/sickles.html

I have serios thoughts on buying a pair, I think they would suite REALLY good, and would definately have good steel in them. So what do you think? Is there anything I havent thought of?

:cool:

harleyt26
3rd November 2004, 11:57
I own a set of the G-3103 kama that were purchased in Okinawa at a hardware store.I only use them for wall decoration,they are too light for real kobudo application and the handle to blade connection could not take a good strike from a bo or any other weapon.The tang does not extend down into the handle far enough to offer the support needed.They are also much sharper than necessary for kobudo application,they can shave the hair off your arm with no problem,that makes them unnecessarily dangerous.When kama are too sharp they tend to get too much bite into the weapon you are blocking(if you are blocking with the blade and not the handle)that makes it easy for your attacker to snatch the kama out of your hand.Sharp kama are good but these are far too sharp for safeties sake.I prefer a heavier set of kama like Shuriedo or Crane Mountain,I have tried both of these.The price of the G-3103 is a definite plus in comparison to the heavier ones but you get what you pay for. Tom Hodges

E.elemental
3rd November 2004, 13:04
harleyt26: Thanks for sharing that information. :) Of course I will not use the pair to Kumite ("sparring"), only for Kata practise. They are as you say, much to sharp and probarbly to weak. The thing is that I also had intended to use them in my garden so therefore I was glad to hear that they are really sharp.

As you say the price is a plus, although in case of buying I will have to pay for the postage to Sweden. But I have not really found a Kama I really like, I have Shureido and they are of course good but I am not completly satisfied. So now I am turning to the traditional, sickle for cutting grass. This feels like the thing the Kama was originally intended for, so in that aspect they are really treditional. If I decide to purchase a pair of this Kama I will get back with a report, but I am not an expert.
:cool:

Victor Smith
4th November 2004, 03:16
Just to be the Devils Advocate for the Okinawan garden variety kama, who says the purose of kama is to block weapons?

I attended a clinic with Kise Sensei maybe 17 years ago and the kama they were using (and selling) came from Okinwana and were identical to those in the pictures.

Likewise the kama I study were based on those style kama. My kama series (Chosen no Kama Sho and Dai) came from an Indonesian Shotokan instructor, and his kama technique involves continual kama shifting technique, which he does exceptionall well.

I see the light weight kama as more an offensive weapon.

The heavier weight kama (which I have as well) are for an entirely different kama technique usage.

Of course if very lightweight kama are practiced as if they're for blocking, the potential that that is their purpose can be dangerous.

BTW, at the time I attended the clinic with Kise sensei, it was reported the Okinawan police were discouraging the Okinawan Sensei from sharing kama. Apparently the youth street gangs were using them for very bloody fights.

That's what happens when everyone keeps their gardening equipment around I guess.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

E.elemental
4th November 2004, 16:25
Originally posted by harleyt26
I own a set of the G-3103 kama that...

Whats the length of the wooden handle? :) I think I am going to order a pair of the G-3104 modell since 05 was out of stock, but maybe they are to short? :o

E.elemental
5th November 2004, 00:15
Now I know that the G-3103-5 has a handle 33 cm long. :) Thats a bit to short, and I have found others with a handle of 44 cm. 33 Cm should be 12.992126 inches.. well if I got that right in the first place. :o


Some more links:

http://www.ehardwicks.com/product_line/cats/gardencut_pruningtools.htm

http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&iProductID=105696

http://www.groworganic.com/a/item_GO700_SickleBrush.html

Some very day soon I will order a pair of these Kama, so there is still time to warn me of anything. ;)

harleyt26
7th November 2004, 01:28
I measured mine today they were 13 and one eighth inch(that is wood only) the blade added one more inch.I hope you have a considerable amount of spare time or a very small yard.I prefer a 48 inch cut riding mower(I have an acre I mow)it allows me more time yo practice with my long handled asian red oak shureido kama(I am still waiting for my crane mountain kama). Tom Hodges

E.elemental
7th November 2004, 01:52
Originally posted by harleyt26
I hope you have a considerable amount of spare time or a very small yard.
:)

Thanks for the info, and yes my yard is very small indeed. I suppose the Kama G-3105 as I now have orderad are exactly as long as my Shureido Kama, size M I might add. They are a bit to short, but works fine anyway. I think I will be satisfied with my buy. When your Crane Mountain Kama arrives I expect a little feedback on them from you. ;)

E.elemental
15th November 2004, 16:42
Today my G-3105 arrived. They were a bit to short but they will suite my anyway. They feel good in the hands and are definately of a traditional design. I am very pleased. They are to weak for Kumite though, but this is not what they were intended to anyway. I will use them in my garden and when doing Kama Kata. :)

E.elemental
24th February 2005, 15:02
Have anyone of you used the Kama from Oyata? They seems interesting and more rigid then the ones above.

http://ryu-te-supplies.com/Sai&Kama.htm

chizikunbo
24th February 2005, 17:30
I have used the Oyata sai ans the kama, they are heavey weight, and very very good quality, they are superior weapons :)

E.elemental
24th February 2005, 21:24
Originally posted by chizikunbo
I have used the Oyata sai ans the kama, they are heavey weight, and very very good quality, they are superior weapons :)

Thanks! Do you know the difference between the two on his site (Kama) RT-119 and RT-120. As I understand both are of steel with the difference that only one of them are sharpened.

And do you know an estimate of the time for the delivery? Yes I asked them but if you have the answer it could be interesting for others? :)

E.elemental
2nd March 2005, 19:12
About the Oyata Kama Iīll get back to them later when I have more info. :)

http://www.karatedo.co.jp/shureido/english/e_index.html

http://www.reimondo.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

http://www.weaponsconnection.com/page1.htm

http://www.crane-mountain.com/

http://www.okiadventures.com/html/about.html

http://ryu-te-supplies.com/index.htm

This is some of the best weapons as I understand it, the sites are often refered to when it comes to buying weaponry. But does anyone have another link perhaps that is not included above? In other words, are there some other place to buy quality weapons?

E.elemental
21st May 2005, 13:08
A while ago I recieved the Kama from Ryu-Te, however there where not the most expensive since that model was out of stock. This I knew when I ordered. But I got dissapointed because it was really light and seemed of extremely poor quality, perhaps ok for Kata but I wanted a hevy duty.