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John Lindsey
19th February 2004, 21:49
About the Moderator

Scott Rogers specialization is in kyusho jutsu pressure point concepts. He runs a website at www.realpressurepoints.com . Although Scott has received a masters certificate from George Dillman, he recently left his organization to pursue what he feels is the realistic aspects of pressure points in martial arts and self defense. He is an author of a monthly column for taekwondo times on pressure points, and has have a 7 tape video series with Panther.

Scott has also studied many other martial arts from brazilian jujutsu to boxing and taekwondo. Some of the teachers he has studied under include Suh Chong Kang, George A. Dillman, Masaaki Hatsumi, Wally Jay and Remy Presas.

The scope of this forum will be to discuss any questions you may have on the use of pressure points in martial arts, specifically in self defense situations

Scott Rogers
19th February 2004, 22:39
Many people have a very negative view on pressure points. I feel that this is due not to their effectiveness but to the manner in which they are applied. If you are a poor martial artist with no real knowledge of self defense, pressure points will not make you any better. When I teach pressure point techniques, I make sure that it is an effective technique even if the person misses all of the points they are aiming at. In short kyushojutsu or pressure points should complement your chosen style, not replace it or alter its content.

bruceb
6th July 2004, 22:55
Most people expect the Vulcan death grip, or some kind of magic spot that will effectively give them the magic touch, but as we know, it is as much science as it is skill while applying what you know with the addition of pressure points.

I have done aikido for about seven years now, with five years of kempo karate/ wally jay jujitsu, and the more I look around in other arts, the more pressure points become the staple of the advanced practitioner.

The other thing that people forget, at least those who are either beginners or not practised in pressure points, is that pressure points are the assistant to techniques, not the whole technique. The addition of emotional projection, let alone creating conditions that let the human body accept the signals to pressure points, must be included in the technique or the results are poor to no results at all. So, it is possible to neutralize pressure points if you understand how and why they work, but to resist with only partial knowledge is just asking for trouble, as much as applying them without researching the healing techniques is asking for trouble also.

This is just my opionion, but after watching the demonstrations and the healing/ recovery needed for not just the volunteer but the person applying the technique, I still have great concern for the health of the people who are using pressure points causing damage to themselves or the bodies of others.

Yeah, it is a dangerous practice if one is not aware of the dangers, but then again, what in life is not dangerous is one is not careful to avoid dangers or learn to heal oneself when injured?

Jim Perkins
9th July 2004, 16:29
Hello I am new to e-budo I have seen this topic attempted on other forums and it is a difficult topic to discus. There is so much more to this topic than just attacking pressure points for self defense I hope to see some good communications here. I have studied Okinawa and Chinese martial arts for a long time but I am still just a student and still learning.

Gene Williams
9th July 2004, 20:06
Probably every atemi point has a "pressure point" associated with it.
It is much more practical, and better tactics, to strike these points with force and rely upon hydrostatic shock or crushing force than it is to try to apply "pressure" as in Dillman's (and others') antics. Wrist locks, arm bars, chokes all rely upon certain pressure points, but they use them differently than most of the "kyusho" folks do. I have not been impressed with the kyusho folks who demonstrate pressure points as a primary means of attack. Most of it appears staged, and I do not believe such tactics are a good choice for self defense. Everyone should know the major ones, but striking and choking are better weapons. For those who defend the effectiveness of such stuff, why don't the kyusho guys prove themselves in NHB or BJJ fights? If it is such magic, it ought to put Royce or Rickson away easily. Hell, go try it in a good Goju or Shito ryu dojo...ought to put every one down with ease. How about a judo dojo...shoot, magic like kyusho in the hands of a Dillman ought to have those judo roughnecks beggin' for mercy:D

bruceb
10th July 2004, 00:36
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Probably every atemi point has a "pressure point" associated with it.
It is much more practical, and better tactics, to strike these points with force and rely upon hydrostatic shock or crushing force than it is to try to apply "pressure" as in Dillman's (and others') antics. Wrist locks, arm bars, chokes all rely upon certain pressure points, but they use them differently than most of the "kyusho" folks do. I have not been impressed with the kyusho folks who demonstrate pressure points as a primary means of attack. Most of it appears staged, and I do not believe such tactics are a good choice for self defense. Everyone should know the major ones, but striking and choking are better weapons. For those who defend the effectiveness of such stuff, why don't the kyusho guys prove themselves in NHB or BJJ fights? If it is such magic, it ought to put Royce or Rickson away easily. Hell, go try it in a good Goju or Shito ryu dojo...ought to put every one down with ease. How about a judo dojo...shoot, magic like kyusho in the hands of a Dillman ought to have those judo roughnecks beggin' for mercy:D

Oh I don't know about that?

Most of what is used by kyusho jitsu is not allowed in practice or the teacher tells the practitioner to practice their way.

If you check with the Gracie's, they have been in touch with Wally Jay and his style of jujitsu which is not all rock'em sock'em, but it sure seems to work when the proper conditions are induced ... and this two by four to the body is not the the trauma induced way to think. My God! Are you still talking in the stone-age terms of clubing a human being into submission?

Well, consider the conditions that make Kyusho jitsu work, and alter those conditions to change the effectiveness of that style, but then ... you can do that for nearly anystyle of martial arts, right? Change the conditons for the technique and have it ... not work?

I believe you need to rethink your response Gene.

Good, bad, or indifferent to George Dillman, or Kyusho Jitsu, one needs to keep things in their proper light. Dillman is interpreting the note of his teacher which are methods to kill people, not to disable them or knock them out. I surely don't see any attacks on Hohan Soken? Why? Because he used what worked.

We all modify the techniques so that there is a wide margin of safety and they disable or cause conditions that are conducive to incapacitate our attacker, but that doesn't mean they will work every single time ... especially if someone is able to change enough of the conditions so they are not effective techniques.

The fact is, if I use aikido against a grappler, I am not gonna be gentle, and the grappler or myself is gonna be injured. That would go over big with the teacher ... NOT!

Yeah, a rethink for your reply is in order.

Gene Williams
10th July 2004, 02:15
Bruce, did you just say something?

hedkikr
12th February 2005, 00:01
From my limited exposure, I can say that "pressure points" seems to be a generic term relating to accupressure / accupuncture points or nodes. But from jiujitsu & chin-na, I know that some of the points are points of connection between muscle & tendon, sensitive points on the throat or space between or within a muscle(s). Not all are along the mystical meridians. By implying this & faking the "knock-outs" (as I've seen in several videos - you know, the victim instinctively putting his hand out to prevent a painful fall), so-called pressure point fall into the arena of Bad Budo or Baffeling Budo. Weak points, vulnerable points...OK, but lets stop mystifying a basic principle of physics and physiology.

Trevor Johnson
14th February 2005, 00:57
I'm rather fond of pressure points, but I view them sort of like whipped cream. It's great, but only on good ice cream. Similarly, pressure points work great when applied with a good technique. The way I use them, you have to break the body down first. It's pretty easy to strike a pressure point on the arm, for instance, if the arm is relaxed. So how to use this? Simple, you get the arm in a position where the muscles can't fully engage, and then go for the pressure point. Same with a grab. I can work my way past pain, and can tense muscles to armor myself against a blow or a pressure point attack. So can any opponent. Ergo, the way to get these to work is to prevent the body from tensing against them.
Now, as to their use, I think that they're useful in very specific situations. If someone's attacking me and I have a limited time to deal with him before I need to beat feet, I probably won't use them except maybe to strike at them. I can get better mileage from hitting him, grabbing his legs, and going alley-oop so he hits his head (French savate man did exactly this to a British bare-knuckles guy, I think around the turn of the century).
Grabbing for pressure points is only useful for me during situations where I don't want to or have to seriously injure my opponent, and I have the time to exert control over him. It's great if I manage to stun him with a punch, for example, because then I can take him down using non-injurious, if painful, methods. The stun relaxes him a bit, and gives me a sec to get a good target. However, if he's on drugs, drunk, or otherwise immunized against pain, I'm going to have to seriously hurt him and pressure points are useless.

(My teacher once ran into this last, a rather overweight boss of his once ran after two men in the pizzeria parking lot with a bat in order to chase them away. Unfortunately, they were weight-lifters, steroid-heads, raging, drunk, and on cocaine or some other drug. My teacher managed to get the bat away before they killed his boss, but they were ignoring every blow he could land, even to the groin, they were massive, and the only way he thought he could get their attention was to crush their tracheas. He got his hands on one, but wasn't really prepared to kill them, and that's what crushing the trachea would have amounted to. His friend survived, since the weapon was gone, and the cops got to deal with the berserkers, which they did by piling on, breaking their elbows so they could cuff them, and then breaking their knees when they tried to kick the squad cars apart. I can't imagine what they felt like the next morning...)

Troll Basher
26th February 2005, 00:33
Originally posted by Gene Williams
………. For those who defend the effectiveness of such stuff, why don't the kyusho guys prove themselves in NHB or BJJ fights? If it is such magic, it ought to put Royce or Rickson away easily. Hell, go try it in a good Goju or Shito ryu dojo.. ought to put every one down with ease. How about a judo dojo...shoot, magic like kyusho in the hands of a Dillman ought to have those judo roughnecks beggin' for mercy:D

I always love that sort of logic.
So by using your logic if you go into a NHB match or another dojo and lose in a fight against someone then your art is just as ineffective as well????

It’s more of the fighter and not the art…..

jason sagaci
2nd March 2005, 16:37
This is my first post, so hello everyone.
I have studied the points as applied in Hapkido ( Korean Aiki-Jutsu). I know what people are thinking, but I have left all that behind for Koryu. Anyway, they do work. The trouble is it is very unpredictable. One Tsubo that has one person hopping like they were stung by a bee, may only make another person smile. Then you are in trouble. Going back to their origins in medicine, sensitivity in the tsubo waxes and wanes according to health and injury in the areas of the body from which those nerves connect. People have differing constitutions, and to rely on Tsubo as an attack method is really risky. I myself had the unfortunate experience of kicking an addled attacker in the jewels to no effect.
Tsubo work well to get out of holds, chokes, dirty fighting close in where there is no room for strikes.
Itis NOT a 'Miracle Weapon'.

thanks, Jason Sagaci

Trevor Johnson
2nd March 2005, 16:56
One of the little problems with it, yes. Some people are immune to some of them.
Also, the more muscular the target, the less likely pressure points are to work, simply because muscle's so good a shield. The muscles HAVE to be relaxed, even for a fraction, to make pressure points work. That said, if you can get one on right, you can really zonk someone, and they're great as add-ins. If someone's feeling great pain due to a pressure point, while also being worn down by other means, they'll succumb much faster. I should note that I've seen tickling used in just this fashion, and it's probably got a similar success rate.

Trevor Johnson
25th May 2005, 01:12
Pity e-budo went down when it did. I was looking forward to an interesting discussion.

powerof0ne
27th May 2005, 23:47
Many years ago when studying Aikido there was a certain "pressure point" around the armpit area...one of my friends at the time is 100% Irish, and the pressure point wouldn't work on him at all but would on the rest of us. The instructor asked my friend if he was Irish and than went on to say that Irish people are missing this "pressure point"? I'm not sure how true this is, but will always remember the pain everyone else but my friend were in.

Trevor Johnson
28th May 2005, 20:40
There's one gripping point on the back that causes my friends great pain, and they hate the fact that it doesn't work on me. My girlfriend doesn't seem to feel some of the elbow pressure points, either.
That's why I feel that they're like whipped cream and a cherry. You'd better have good ice cream under it, or it's kinda pointless.

Trevor Johnson
1st June 2005, 19:00
One guy my teacher met a long time ago claimed to have met a ninja in the woods while high, and so impressed the ninja (by being stoned enough to see him, apparently) that the ninja taught him a "secret pressure point attack." Said attack consisted of going into Okinawan/reverse backstance with the hand towards your opponent as in Chinto kata, if you are familiar with that. You hold your attacking hand pinky up, thumb down and insert pinky into the opponent's navel. If you do it correctly, they fall down in convulsions with vomiting. My teacher asked for a demonstration and was told, "Oh, no, I can't do that, I'd cause you to fall down convulsing and vomiting!" My teacher responded, "No, no, please do this, I want to see it demonstrated!" The guy wouldn't. Later found out that he was a TKD student with very little experience.

Now, if this is the common pressure point experience, I can understand why it's got a bad rap. My own experience, and my teacher's, is considerably more practical, and I find kyusho jutsu quite useful in certain specific ways. So, has anyone else run into similar ridiculousness?

petreliu
6th August 2005, 06:51
When martial artist starts to question wheter this or that technique work or not he has reached a very important level in thinking.I think we should never underestimate our intuitive feeling about usefulness of techniques. This is important for many reasons: First, techniques of martial arts are not tested in a similar manner than they used to be in feodal times. false or weak technique used in a combat resulted severe injury or death. this is a reason why so many people get confused about the importance of single kyusho te

petreliu
6th August 2005, 07:55
When martial artist starts to question wheter this or that technique work or not he has reached a very important level in thinking.I think we should never underestimate our intuitive feeling about the usefulness any technique. This is important for many reasons: First, techniques of martial arts are not tested in a similar manner than they used to be in feodal times. At those days false or weak technique used in a combat resulted severe injury or death. This is the reason (at least I think so )why so many people get confused about the importance of single techniques. It is simply because people do not have to fight for their survival every day! I`m not saying that every martial artist should seek for streetfights to test their skills but thats obviously what is missing nowadays. I´d estimate that 99,9 percent of all martal artists never end up in a real fight where their skills would be tested. What i am trying to say here is, that because we do not have to fight every day we are in great danger to loose the sense of reality. We should never underestimate our intuitive feeling about what really works. And this general confusion prevents us to see the whole picture of martial way. Moreover, this ignornace of the beginners is used by greed people who sell magic tricks to people who are confused. I think that kyusho techniques have been detached from their original context and emphasized in way that gives a wrong image about the importance of pressure-points. I think that we should not start our martial way with the delegate pressure point but instead focus on basic training which includes all aspects of fighting. And I think martial arts should not be understood as a bunch of tricks learned over weekend-camp. Because martial techniques are not tested anymore like they used to be, we should firstly rely in our conception and feeling about the usefulness of the technique. I saw a video in pressure point fighting where this well known master did toe locks to his opponent. As he talked I started to wonder that what would be the likelyhood of ending in asituation like that. master was on his knees in front of the opponent. opponent could have easily made a lethal kick whit a knee ! In situation like that I would never try to reach my opponent´s toes, especially when he wears shoes, like most do! Wouldn`t it be less dangerous to teach how to protect your head in a situation like that? or learn how to strike groins ? anything else than twisting toes!!!!

In the end part of that video he did a no touch knock-out from the distance. ....and people were amazed! then I realized that almost anything can be sold to the people who have lost the sense of reality. This video was very important because it put me on the right track again.....

Instead of being secret as it has been claimed in present literature, i think that old grand masters realized the true value of the pressure points and thats why kyusho applications were never over-emphasized as they seem to be now among some modern masters.

Ellis Amdur
6th August 2005, 15:00
The Araki-ryu has some instruction of kyusho in it's records, but it was not emphasized in the line I've studied. You picked up some in the kata, but it wasn't points to be struck or pressed - it was the best point to apply leverage, for example, for a pin or lock.

That said, regarding the more classic ideas on kyusho, my instructor stated that the whole concept had been contaminated by the inclusion of tsubo from acupuncture and shiatsu - and that this was not a new phenomenom. Tsubo are healing points, although they can hurt if one applies force or pressure. However, when one is being treated, one's body is relaxed. Just recall the last shiatsu session where you tensed up. The practitioner would tell you to relax -and it hurts more. My instructor's point was that in a fight, one is both adrenalized and tense, particularly when you feel the other person trying to hurt you. He noted that in "dojo bujutsu," - which he meant, in this case, schools that do not practice realistically, and essentially, train the students to be passive and responsive to the teacher (resulting, I suppose, in knockouts at a distance), they are also passive when the teacher applies pressure to a tsubo.

A proper kyusho, however, is going to hurt (and/or be injurious) whether you tense your muscles or not. Crude examples would be trachea, groin, temple and eyes. There are others in the scrolls, but I don't know if they are effective.

Best

Finny
7th August 2005, 11:44
Mr. Amdur,

I remember you telling a story in a thread a long time ago about a martial artist you met in Japan who was somewhat expert at applying kyusho.

I can't remember the specifics, but it somewhat altered my (cynical) view of kyusho - anything you can tell us about that experience?

PS - 'Old School' has to be one of my favourite books of all time (I've been meaning to buy 'Duelling with O-Sensei', despite having little interest in Aikido) - thanks for producing them and any chance of another book in the works?

Regards,

Brendan

Finny
7th August 2005, 11:50
Oh and BTW,

Proof that not even the most blatantly injurious kyusho are foolproof:

http://www.bravo.co.uk/travelsick2/main/challenge_clip2.html

Yip Chee Gung of Chow Ga Tong Long Pai (Southern Mantis) 'taking one for the team' in the name of MA research.

Apparently Wang Shu Jin was also renowned for his ability to retract his testes into his abdomen.

Ellis Amdur
7th August 2005, 16:47
Brendan -

I honestly don't recall the story you mean. I do have one other kyusho story though. I had a very close friend who ws a judoka. A very sturdy man - five feet, eight inches, and one hundred eighty pounds - all muscle. We were drinking a few beers at his house, and I decided to f** with him (he was my friend, after all) and try something out at the same time. (Actually, we'd had quite a few beers.) I turned to him and said, "You know, thanks to my studies in koryu, judo appears to me to be mere kid's stuff, easily defeated."
Y - "You shouldn't kid around like that, Ellis."
E - "No, I mean it. I'm now completely invulnerable to being choked out."
Y - "You may think that's funny, but you shouldn't say things like that! Some people could take it seriously and get pissed off."
E -"Oh, you don't think I'm serious then. Go ahead and try to choke me, then." My friend had a hot temper, so we were good to go. To make it even easier for him, I put on my kiekko gi top, lay on my back, and he put on a cross-collar choke. "Go ahead," I said. "Sorry to hurt your feelings like this, but you should know the deficiencies of what you were studying all these years."
He cinched on the choke and just as it was tightening, I took my knuckles and simultaneously pressed with all my might at the bottom of his floating ribs. (Note: The man was an expert, doing what he did best. He was relaxed. And drunk. Relaxed even more.) He shot completely over my head, and I shrugged his hands off my collar.
The man was devastated. He sat there with his head in his hands, saying, "I don't believe it. You've destroyed my life. So this is kyushojutsu! My judo is nothing." (We were very drunk, actually).
I had another beer, and had mercy on him. And I wanted to see if what my teacher (mentioned in the last post) was telling me the truth about kyusho and tsubo. I said, "Wanna try again."
"What would be the point?" he said. He was really hurting. If this had been a couple hundred of years ago, he would have had to give me his dojo. I would have let him sleep in the back yard with the maid. . . .wait a minute. That's not so bad! Anyway, to continue.
E- "O.K. Listen. Listen to me, brother! This is important! Imagine you don't know me. You know that statue of your father downstairs? You don't know me and I came into your house and broke it. Your dead dad's statue in pieces all over the floor. Then I laughed at your mother when she saw it and began crying. Then I molested your sister! I did! Imagining all that? Good. Now, c'mon. Choke me now. Choke me now!" Remember the old Mickey Mouse cartoons, where there is a bull in a field, and he turns color and smoke comes out of his nose and ears. Y was sort of like that - anyway, something was coming out of his nose at that point - and he got the "mount" and cinched on the choke. HARD. I used my knuckles again. It was like pushing into corregated steel. I started to go out, and I thought, "What the f***. Let's take it all the way." I spread my arms wide, and hit him with my knuckles right in the floating rib points as hard as I possible could. Once. Twice.
Fade to black. When I awoke, Y was pouring himself a beer with a relieved look on his face. "Thanks, Ellis. I was worried there for a second."
E - "Was I out a long time?"
Y - "Oh, no, not that. I mean, I was worried about my judo."

P.S. As for writing, I might have something in the works in a few years, but it's too soon to be gabbing about. BTW - yeah, you should buy Dueling. It's not really about aikido anyway. It's deep thoughts that will make you really soulful, so that women will flock to you.

Best

M. McPherson
7th August 2005, 18:15
Mr. Amdur,

I *think* Mr. Finn is talking about a story you related in a post online a while back. You wrote about approaching a gentleman in Tokyo, a fishmonger by trade, who was the last surviving practitioner of an art that emphasized kyushojutsu. You approached him, if I remember correctly, to learn something of his art...only you made the mistake of doing so in a respectful manner. I don't remember if he was put off, or just suffering social vertigo because of your approach, but he declined the offer (again, if I remember correctly).
I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember you briefly describing some of his conditioning exercises, and that he had a grip like a steel spring. And it hurt.

I don't know if that's the story Mr. Finn meant, but if you remember it, I for one would love to hear your thoughts on it in light of the thread.

Respectfully,

Finny
7th August 2005, 18:42
That's the one, Mr. McPherson.

The demonstration I remember involved him digging his thumb into somewhere on your ribs (?) - Resulting in some serious discomfort on your part, Mr. Amdur - If my memory serves.


BTW - yeah, you should buy Dueling. It's not really about aikido anyway. It's deep thoughts that will make you really soulful, so that women will flock to you.

LMAO - That's a great pitch you've got there Mr. Amdur. I read the exerpt on Aikidojournal.com - really beautifully written - I'll be sure to get a copy. Unfortunately I'm a broke and exceedingly lazy undergrad student, so you can imagine how long it'll take me - not sure the girlfriend will appreciate the 'women flocking' part, but I'm sure I'll make do :p .

On the subject of future writings, I hope you follow it up - I'll be looking forward to it (whatever it may be).

Ellis Amdur
7th August 2005, 21:02
I'd be very surprised if the guy (he'd be pissed if I called him a gentleman) is still alive. Kasumi Shin-ryu was an offshoot of Araki-ryu, developed by the most important second generation Araki-ryu shihan - Mori Kasumi - (who, I believe, was really the one who consolidated the ryu). He must have been quite a guy to have enough "material" to develop another school. It reportedly had kenjutsu, naginata, kamayari among it's weapons, and jujutsu. Serge Mol refers to it - incorrectly, I believe - as Kashin-ryu.

What the old guy told me was that Kasumi Shin-ryu was a "keidomyaku" bujutsu, which means an "artery" martial practice. He said that one attacked the junctures of the arteries - however, I don't know if he was referring to anatomically accurate points in the circulatory system or to kyusho from an Oriental perspective.

He accurately grabbed me sort of behind the collarbone, and also seemed to lift my ribs apart to get at what was underneath. Hurt a lot.

He told me that his instructor was a butcher and that he used to hang up sides of beef and practice thrusting his fingers through the muscle fibers.

My acquaintance, who was briefly in Araki-ryu and was my senior by a generation in Buko-ryu as well. He had menjo in Sugino's KSR, and also in Watanabe (the elder's) Yagyu Shinkage-ryu.

He would never teach anyone - his social caste as a fishmonger was, in his mind, too low. He had a kind of perverse humble pride. So, as the previous story went, by treating him a teacher (bushi), he recoiled. Had I treated him like a guy who spent his days in fish guts, I might have got something from him.

Jason H.P. Yoo
8th August 2005, 01:36
Brendan -

I honestly don't recall the story you mean. I do have one other kyusho story though. I had a very close friend who ws a judoka.

I do not mean this in a manner to challenge your expertise (let alone the power of your kyusho techniques or judo choke), but what point are you illustrating through this story?

Are you saying that the kyusho are themselves fundamentally ineffective? Or are you saying that the use of kyusho alone is not nearly a guarantee of escape from a dangerously tactically inferior position?

Finny
8th August 2005, 04:27
I believe Mr. Amdur is using the story to illustrate the position he (and his teacher) have taken regarding kyusho:


That said, regarding the more classic ideas on kyusho, my instructor stated that the whole concept had been contaminated by the inclusion of tsubo from acupuncture and shiatsu - and that this was not a new phenomenom. Tsubo are healing points, although they can hurt if one applies force or pressure. However, when one is being treated, one's body is relaxed.


My instructor's point was that in a fight, one is both adrenalized and tense, particularly when you feel the other person trying to hurt you. He noted that in "dojo bujutsu," - which he meant, in this case, schools that do not practice realistically, and essentially, train the students to be passive and responsive to the teacher (resulting, I suppose, in knockouts at a distance), they are also passive when the teacher applies pressure to a tsubo.


A proper kyusho, however, is going to hurt (and/or be injurious) whether you tense your muscles or not.

The story simply illustrates Mr. Amdur's point that tsubo can be very painful and effective if one's opponent is relaxed, but can also be completely ineffective if the opponent is tense and adrenaline-charged.

shemp
17th October 2005, 17:32
Many people have a very negative view on pressure points. I feel that this is due not to their effectiveness but to the manner in which they are applied. If you are a poor martial artist with no real knowledge of self defense, pressure points will not make you any better. When I teach pressure point techniques, I make sure that it is an effective technique even if the person misses all of the points they are aiming at. In short kyushojutsu or pressure points should complement your chosen style, not replace it or alter its content.

Kyushu is a part of waza . ' apart of bunki like throwing punching kicking strangling blocking aiki , its all there . Kyushu is just the targets you strive to hit to get maximum effect and shorten the conflict .
its not magick its anatomy . ya some don't believe in it but some don't believe in kata . thats there short comings .

paradoxbox
18th October 2005, 18:27
Kyusho work on people who are tensed up as well but most of us lack the kind of conditioning to make it work on anyone other than a relaxed opponent. In a certain school of ninpo tearing the bark off of trees was used in old times to condition the fingertips and imrpove gripping strength. Nowadays we have those little horseshoe shaped workout machines to increase forearm and grip strength.

A man with very large tensed muscles can still be hurt by kyushojutsu if you have the hand strength to reach the pressure point in the first place.

A study or familiarisation of gyokko ryuu kosshijutsu might be worthwhile to anyone interested in kyushojutsu.

Trevor Johnson
18th October 2005, 20:40
No matter how strong you are, sometimes they still will not work. A. Some people lack specific ones completely. B. Adrenaline or artificial substitutes are great painkillers. It's likely that you can bring someone to their knees when they're not all charged up and not be able to affect them when they're mad at you. They may have huge bruises later where you gripped them, and not have felt a thing at the time. Done that myself.
Pressure points are great as long as you don't rely on them.

shemp
18th October 2005, 22:37
your doing it wrong then .





Kyusho work on people who are tensed up as well but most of us lack the kind of conditioning to make it work on anyone other than a relaxed opponent. In a certain school of ninpo tearing the bark off of trees was used in old times to condition the fingertips and imrpove gripping strength. Nowadays we have those little horseshoe shaped workout machines to increase forearm and grip strength.

A man with very large tensed muscles can still be hurt by kyushojutsu if you have the hand strength to reach the pressure point in the first place.

A study or familiarisation of gyokko ryuu kosshijutsu might be worthwhile to anyone interested in kyushojutsu.

paradoxbox
19th October 2005, 03:43
:rolleyes:

Have you ever tried kyusho on someone in a Mixed Martial Arts fight while they are in the ring? Good luck. I'm sorry but you are sorely mistaken if you think you can use pressure points to knock someone down when they're tensed up and expecting it unless your hands are conditioned for it.

I don't think pressure points were ever a 'magic' art that could be used by even weaklings to overcome extremely strong opponents. Some strikes to some areas work no matter if there is strength or not, like hitting the temple or back of the skull or testicles. But I believe if you don't have the hand conditioning to go along with the training in how to hit the points, your ability to use kyushojutsu properly is only 50% at best.

But I'm not sure what to say if you believe you can hit someone in the nipple when they have pectorals of steel and are tensed up and ready to hit you, and expect it to have much of an effect. It takes a lot of hand conditioning to make most pressure points work on strong and ready people.

If you think you can do this without having very strong hands then go try it in reality on people who are ready for you to do it. There are more than enough people out there who will take the challenge and they will win it every time, I'll put money on that bet. A hit anywhere except the temple, back of the skull or the jewels isn't going to do much to anyone ready for it. Maybe if you break something in the strike that'll do it it. Are your fingers strong enough to break bones?

Don't believe me if you want, that's fine, but anyone expecting it and with higher pain threshold is going to brush it off like nothing. This is from my experience and the experience of many other people who have used kyusho jutsu with me in randori during training, not cooperating uke. Kyusho work extremely well on almost everyone who isn't expecting it.

Mukeido
19th October 2005, 06:36
Have you ever tried kyusho on someone in a Mixed Martial Arts fight while they are in the ring? Good luck. I'm sorry but you are sorely mistaken if you think you can use pressure points to knock someone down when they're tensed up and expecting it unless your hands are conditioned for it.

I don't think pressure points were ever a 'magic' art that could be used by even weaklings to overcome extremely strong opponents. Some strikes to some areas work no matter if there is strength or not, like hitting the temple or back of the skull or testicles. But I believe if you don't have the hand conditioning to go along with the training in how to hit the points, your ability to use kyushojutsu properly is only 50% at best.

But I'm not sure what to say if you believe you can hit someone in the nipple when they have pectorals of steel and are tensed up and ready to hit you, and expect it to have much of an effect. It takes a lot of hand conditioning to make most pressure points work on strong and ready people.

If you think you can do this without having very strong hands then go try it in reality on people who are ready for you to do it. There are more than enough people out there who will take the challenge and they will win it every time, I'll put money on that bet. A hit anywhere except the temple, back of the skull or the jewels isn't going to do much to anyone ready for it. Maybe if you break something in the strike that'll do it it. Are your fingers strong enough to break bones?

Don't believe me if you want, that's fine, but anyone expecting it and with higher pain threshold is going to brush it off like nothing. This is from my experience and the experience of many other people who have used kyusho jutsu with me in randori during training, not cooperating uke. Kyusho work extremely well on almost everyone who isn't expecting it.

Here here. I agree 100%. Not to mention attempting to apply pressure point strikes during an altercation with an oversized Maori hell-bent on bashing your brains out. Good stuff for the movies - leave it all to Batman!

shemp
19th October 2005, 17:10
first I don't do tournaments they have rules . I have knock out people in street fights using kyusho .it works better then just hitting a person anywhere .
but don't use it , fine with me . I have I know the setup point the knockout point and I use Aiki jitsu on joints .
tensed up means it easy
as for weakling ? Karate is to get the maximum from the minimum efforts .
oh well . your right , you should not bother with points . you probably don't think acupuncture works either .




:rolleyes:

Have you ever tried kyusho on someone in a Mixed Martial Arts fight while they are in the ring? Good luck. I'm sorry but you are sorely mistaken if you think you can use pressure points to knock someone down when they're tensed up and expecting it unless your hands are conditioned for it.

I don't think pressure points were ever a 'magic' art that could be used by even weaklings to overcome extremely strong opponents. Some strikes to some areas work no matter if there is strength or not, like hitting the temple or back of the skull or testicles. But I believe if you don't have the hand conditioning to go along with the training in how to hit the points, your ability to use kyushojutsu properly is only 50% at best.

But I'm not sure what to say if you believe you can hit someone in the nipple when they have pectorals of steel and are tensed up and ready to hit you, and expect it to have much of an effect. It takes a lot of hand conditioning to make most pressure points work on strong and ready people.

If you think you can do this without having very strong hands then go try it in reality on people who are ready for you to do it. There are more than enough people out there who will take the challenge and they will win it every time, I'll put money on that bet. A hit anywhere except the temple, back of the skull or the jewels isn't going to do much to anyone ready for it. Maybe if you break something in the strike that'll do it it. Are your fingers strong enough to break bones?

Don't believe me if you want, that's fine, but anyone expecting it and with higher pain threshold is going to brush it off like nothing. This is from my experience and the experience of many other people who have used kyusho jutsu with me in randori during training, not cooperating uke. Kyusho work extremely well on almost everyone who isn't expecting it.

paradoxbox
19th October 2005, 23:00
first I don't do tournaments they have rules . I have knock out people in street fights using kyusho .it works better then just hitting a person anywhere .
but don't use it , fine with me . I have I know the setup point the knockout point and I use Aiki jitsu on joints .
tensed up means it easy
as for weakling ? Karate is to get the maximum from the minimum efforts .
oh well . your right , you should not bother with points . you probably don't think acupuncture works either .

You are preaching to the choir. In the organization I'm in, we study gyokko ryu kosshijutsu, an art based upon attacking pressure points and weak areas of the body. But I don't have unrealistic expectations. Out in the real world you may or may not encounter people as strong as mixed martial artist fighters, and you may or may not fight against tense or non-tense people. The idea is you should be able to knock almost all of them down and you can't safely do that without hand conditioning.

shemp
20th October 2005, 04:08
sorry for preaching to the choir but I thought this was "it doesn't work thread "
I have been knocked out by a first punch that landed on the eye brow and an inch above , a good knock out point , a friend in a temporally paralyzed an appoints arm temporally by hitting pericardium 6 and the point just inside the shoulder at the ball of the arm socket .

















You are preaching to the choir. In the organization I'm in, we study gyokko ryu kosshijutsu, an art based upon attacking pressure points and weak areas of the body. But I don't have unrealistic expectations. Out in the real world you may or may not encounter people as strong as mixed martial artist fighters, and you may or may not fight against tense or non-tense people. The idea is you should be able to knock almost all of them down and you can't safely do that without hand conditioning.

Finny
24th October 2005, 09:51
Please follow the rules you agreed to when joining e-budo, Shemp, and attach your full real name to all of your posts - this can be easily accomplished by putting your name in your signature line.

I also disagree with you - aiming a punch at "the eyebrow and an inch above" may sound good, but applying that in real life, against someone moving their head is not an easy task. Also, like some others said, it may not work on some people (I've been hit just about everywhere on my face/head - hard, and never been knocked out, for some reason).

While obviously (IMO), there are some basic kyusho to aim for in a fight (solar plexus, temple, point of jaw, kidneys, liver etc...), the point that they are not always effective is very valid:

1. In a fight, it is not always possible to accurately attack a certain point.

2. One may miss

3. One's opponent may simply be impervious to the particular attack

4. One's opponent may have a sufficiently high pain threshold to be able to ignore your attack.


I know the setup point the knockout point and I use Aiki jitsu on joints .
tensed up means it easy

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the "setup point"? and the "knockout point"?

And how can you use "aiki jitsu" on joints?

shemp
24th October 2005, 21:32
Please follow the rules you agreed to when joining e-budo, Shemp, and attach your full real name to all of your posts - this can be easily accomplished by putting your name in your signature line.
{I thought it posted my name automatically .how do I post it ?}
I also disagree with you - aiming a punch at "the eyebrow and an inch above" may sound good, but applying that in real life, against someone moving their head is not an easy task. Also, like some others said, it may not work on some people (I've been hit just about everywhere on my face/head - hard, and never been knocked out, for some reason).???{
are you serious ? first most all Kata's show you how to hit the targets , next you never look for anything but opportunity . next it works on all but 1% of males and not all females . the part about your head ? ya sure , let me have a shot at your temple . , look don't use kyusho , Its OK with me , but your tell me "it doesnt work " sorry I know better .}

While obviously (IMO), there are some basic kyusho to aim for in a fight (solar plexus, temple, point of jaw, kidneys, liver etc...), the point that they are not always effective is very valid:

1. In a fight, it is not always possible to accurately attack a certain point.

2. One may miss

3. One's opponent may simply be impervious to the particular attack

4. One's opponent may have a sufficiently high pain threshold to be able to ignore your attack.



Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the "setup point"? and the "knockout point"?
{NO I don't think I will .}
And how can you use "aikijitsu" on joints? as for Aikijitsu ? wow . no , you know I wont do that either . you could look up Aiki jistsu a good tape would be one of Miquel Ibarra, a similar Chines art you'd look up Chi Na .

I'm not your sensei and I never give out information to people that start out calling me a lire , as for your 3
. and 4. impervious to an attack , ?? what ? LOL ya OK I guess use kryptonite ?
high pain threshold ? sure . using points under the ear on both sides at once in and up will take down a guy on meth . this has been proved by police .
[if done correctly }

Finny
25th October 2005, 03:24
as for Aikijitsu ? wow . no , you know I wont do that either . you could look up Aiki jistsu a good tape would be one of Miquel Ibarra, a similar Chines art you'd look up Chi Na

OK - I know what Aiki jujutsu is, and what Aiki Jutsu is, I just didn't get the connection with "applying aiki jitsu to a joint". Perhaps the Chinese art you mean is Shuai Chiao? Chin na is not an art, it is a term which refers to the grappling or joint locking techniques in all chinese martial arts.


I'm not your sensei and I never give out information to people that start out calling me a lire

I didn't call you a lire (or even a liar) - I simply disagreed with you.


are you serious ? first most all Kata's show you how to hit the targets , next you never look for anything but opportunity . next it works on all but 1% of males and not all females . the part about your head ? ya sure , let me have a shot at your temple

Works on all but 1% of males and not all females? Where did you get those statistics? What a load of rubbish.

The part about my head? Yes I'm serious. I didn't say I enjoy being hit in the head, but I've boxed since I was 8 or 9, I've been hit just about everywhere on my head (hard - I'm a heavyweight, so I spar/fight other heavyweights) and I've never been knocked out. Concussed, yes, but not knocked out. You want a shot at my temple? I'll trade you - you can hit my temple, then I'll hit your jaw. We'll see who goes down first.


look don't use kyusho , Its OK with me , but your tell me "it doesnt work " sorry I know better

I didn't say I dont use kyusho or that they don't work, I said they don't always work, and are often difficult/impossible to hit accurately.


high pain threshold ? sure . using points under the ear on both sides at once in and up will take down a guy on meth . this has been proved by police .
[if done correctly }

Hahaha - what a load of crap. Can you provide any sources to back up this idea that police have 'proved' that these points always work on "guys on meth"?? How do the police get to these points while fighting/restraining a guy on meth?


I thought it posted my name automatically .how do I post it ?

Of course you can simply write it underneath each post you write, but it's easier to attach it to your signature. Just go to "User CP", then write it under "signature".

shemp
25th October 2005, 20:50
the load of crap comes from law enforcement use that techniquee .

you say you know Aikjisu? but its all against the joints wrest mostly .

but like I said , stay away from kyusho you just don't get it . you whine "you cant hit those points in a fight " bull !!!! , you don't use your finger you use everything fro fist to elbow like a bat hitting most like L5 to St5 .
I like guys like you , you cant figure it out so you declare it useless . OK .
you cant do it so no one can well I have and to me thats all that matters .

Trevor Johnson
25th October 2005, 23:36
the load of crap comes from law enforcement use that techniquee .

you say you know Aikjisu? but its all against the joints wrest mostly .

but like I said , stay away from kyusho you just don't get it . you whine "you cant hit those points in a fight " bull !!!! , you don't use your finger you use everything fro fist to elbow like a bat hitting most like L5 to St5 .
I like guys like you , you cant figure it out so you declare it useless . OK .
you cant do it so no one can well I have and to me thats all that matters .
I hate to say this, but I actually can't take your advice. I can't understand what you're saying. Would you do me a favor and clean that up a bit so it's comprehensible?
(You're getting treated like a troll here. One of the reasons why may be that almost every troll I've ever seen has had trouble with spelling and grammar. We try to be forgiving, but if someone starts yelling at us with poor grammar and diction, they tend to get stereotyped. )

I should point out that the one thing I understood from this post, that LEOs use these techniques, may in fact militate against the rest of our using it.
Police have the power of the radio, and usually come in groups, plus access to lethal force if needed (and a willingness to put the boot in if resisted). This means that criminals actually resist them less. So, a technique that works for a cop may NOT work for me simply because the person I'm trying to grab or strike isn't giving me that psychological advantage. Cops don't realize it, but the uniform really helps against almost everyone. (Except psychotics, druggies, the royally p.o.ed, and the really drunk, who feel very little anyway, so... Plus, their training is to arrest, mine is not.

Now, I do and have used kyusho jutsu myself, and there are several tricks to it, the first and foremost of them being never to rely on it. Restraining someone, they can almost always escape if they're willing to sacrifice a joint. You often need to focus their attention on the pain verbally and keep it there. As for striking points, my experience has been that you put them on top of a really good strike. It's like ice cream, whipped cream and a cherry don't do much to enhance the flavor if the ice cream sucks. With good ice cream, the effect's wonderful.
Similarly, if someone moves while you're striking, you can really have trouble hitting a specific spot. The best way to do it involves grabbing first, which vastly increases your targeting capabilities, and then hitting where you want to hit. The primary grab tends not to be precisely targetable, however.
I often use kyusho jutsu to wear someone down with pain, but that's in randori. In a real fight, you don't have the time.

shemp
26th October 2005, 00:06
you cant understand ? then thats great , we'll leave it at that .


I hate to say this, but I actually can't take your advice. I can't understand what you're saying. Would you do me a favor and clean that up a bit so it's comprehensible?
(You're getting treated like a troll here. One of the reasons why may be that almost every troll I've ever seen has had trouble with spelling and grammar. We try to be forgiving, but if someone starts yelling at us with poor grammar and diction, they tend to get stereotyped. )

I should point out that the one thing I understood from this post, that LEOs use these techniques, may in fact militate against the rest of our using it.
Police have the power of the radio, and usually come in groups, plus access to lethal force if needed (and a willingness to put the boot in if resisted). This means that criminals actually resist them less. So, a technique that works for a cop may NOT work for me simply because the person I'm trying to grab or strike isn't giving me that psychological advantage. Cops don't realize it, but the uniform really helps against almost everyone. (Except psychotics, druggies, the royally p.o.ed, and the really drunk, who feel very little anyway, so... Plus, their training is to arrest, mine is not.

Now, I do and have used kyusho jutsu myself, and there are several tricks to it, the first and foremost of them being never to rely on it. Restraining someone, they can almost always escape if they're willing to sacrifice a joint. You often need to focus their attention on the pain verbally and keep it there. As for striking points, my experience has been that you put them on top of a really good strike. It's like ice cream, whipped cream and a cherry don't do much to enhance the flavor if the ice cream sucks. With good ice cream, the effect's wonderful.
Similarly, if someone moves while you're striking, you can really have trouble hitting a specific spot. The best way to do it involves grabbing first, which vastly increases your targeting capabilities, and then hitting where you want to hit. The primary grab tends not to be precisely targetable, however.
I often use kyusho jutsu to wear someone down with pain, but that's in randori. In a real fight, you don't have the time.

Finny
26th October 2005, 00:36
No Shemp - It's you who doesn't understand.

By the way, what style of 'Aikjisu' (sic) do you train?


stay away from kyusho you just don't get it . you whine "you cant hit those points in a fight " bull !!!! , you don't use your finger you use everything fro fist to elbow like a bat hitting most like L5 to St5 .
I like guys like you , you cant figure it out so you declare it useless . OK .
you cant do it so no one can

You're an idiot Shemp. Maybe you should re-read my post. I said I can and do use them, but they are not the be-all and end-all of fighting.

I never declared it useless (although I guess I have by now called you a 'lire' hahaha)

And I never said you can't hit those points - I said you can't ALWAYS hit those points ACCURATELY.

Once again - you are a certifiable idiot. Have fun in E-Budo hell when you get there...

Finny
26th October 2005, 03:30
By the way, I just checked your profile - you train in karate and use 'aiki jitsu' on joints?

What does 'aiki jitsu' have to do with karate?

And for a 58 year old, your spelling, grammar and writing in general is appalling.

Trevor Johnson
26th October 2005, 15:59
It's not that I can't understand your wisdom, you say you have some, and I'm willing to believe you.
The problem is that you aren't good at communicating it. So, can we try typing your post up on word or something that has spellcheck, grammar check, etc, and then cutting and pasting? It would really help you, which is what I'm trying to point out.

All of us have our views on kyusho jutsu. That's fine. Yours aren't actually getting judged on their merits at this point. They may have some, but your lack of communicative skills gets in the way of our being able to judge them on the merits.

So, for your own benefit, try my suggestion.

Oh, and Shemp? One thing that you agreed to when you signed up was to put your full name at the bottom of the posts. It's easy to do, just go to user cp and add your name to your signature. The mods get pretty snarky about it, so I figure I'd better warn you before they decide to ban you or delete your account. It's part of E-budo rules, and is strictly enforced, 'k?

RobertRousselot
7th November 2005, 10:50
I admit I stopped reading this thread when it turned into a bit of a flame war. There is enough of that on these boards I don’t need to read yet another one.

Just a few things on kyusho.

1) Like with most things….if it didn’t work you probably weren’t doing it right. So why blame the art/technique for your inability? Blaming the art/technique speaks volumes about your character and training ideology. Lose the ego and try harder until you can do it correctly. Kyusho is just like any aspect of training, you actually have to practice it to get it right. When sparring how many punches land perfectly? If you get 50% of them I would say you are doing a damn good job….better than most. How is landing a kyusho strike any different?
2) This “color by numbers kyusho” I read about all over the internet….it’s bull. I have yet to have someone tell me exactly which kyusho # they hit to whack someone out. People that talk about first you hit GB 20 and then ST 9 are full of it and don’t know what they are talking about. They throw out TCM terms as if they were licensed in it. Well, I am and I can tell you 99% of the stuff I read on these boards is BS.
3) If you don’t like kyusho and don’t think it works fine. Say so then go away, we don’t need to hear it over and over on why you think it doesn’t work.

sect_7
30th January 2006, 10:15
One of the little problems with it, yes. Some people are immune to some of them.
Also, the more muscular the target, the less likely pressure points are to work, simply because muscle's so good a shield. The muscles HAVE to be relaxed, even for a fraction, to make pressure points work. That said, if you can get one on right, you can really zonk someone, and they're great as add-ins. If someone's feeling great pain due to a pressure point, while also being worn down by other means, they'll succumb much faster. I should note that I've seen tickling used in just this fashion, and it's probably got a similar success rate.

This is simply untrue. most people tense muscle, and in this case it is actually EASIER to apply the pressure point cause hard muscle ripples. in the case of relaxed muscle... umm well nerves dont gnerally lie directly under muscle, they normally lie next to arterial vessels (which are AWAY from muscles so as to avoid having valvless areteris having bllod pumped against the work of the heart by the local muscle group.)

deaddoll
17th February 2006, 10:23
There is never one single moment in time that will be the same exactly as any other,so something either works when you ues it or it dosent,knowing a few hows and whens and maybe even just doing it cos it feels right is all we can do,if it works when you want it to thats great,it it dosent ,hey move on either you did it wrong or it just did not work at that time on that person.

yelena66
27th December 2006, 10:17
I also happens to me. I would appriciate your help too.



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aikibod
29th March 2007, 18:53
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