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View Full Version : PP to cause defecation



jaxonbrown
25th February 2004, 15:16
Serious question.

A bouncer that was teaching a physical security class said there were pressure points that caused blindness, dizziness, numbness (aside from the usual knockouts and pain-compliance application). He also said that he knew a point that could "make you !!!! your pants" but he wouldn't tell us.

I asked about this on another forum and the only serious reply i got back was it was an inch inside the anus. i thought, christ why bother?

Is this pp for real?

Becky Sheetz
25th February 2004, 16:45
"it was an inch inside the anus"

I'm all for trial and error, but even I'd pass at that one

Scott Rogers
25th February 2004, 19:25
While I would not rule out the possibility of this point exisiting, it is however unlikely. If you flip through some chinese based DIM Mak books it is almost laughable because all points allegedly cause immediate death, paralyzation, and I have even seen one that sadi it would inhibit the ability to digest food properly. Now there is a pressure point located about and inch below the belly button that when struck if the person has a full bladder, will cause him to pee his pants.

Jason W
29th February 2004, 20:14
Erle Montaige in his book on Dim Mak talks of two points, one over each kidney, that if stuck in an inward+downward circling manner at a certain time would have this effect. Never tried it myself so can't vouch for it...but its in the the literature if you look hard enough for it.

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon

Kevin73
29th February 2004, 22:54
I've had an instructor who has hit people in the back/kidney area and made them pee themselves.

Defecation is a not uncommon response to the body's fight/flight reaction in a perceived life/death situation. I don't know if the reaction this other person was talking about would be due to that or due to just a biological defense mechanism.

jaxonbrown
1st March 2004, 22:05
Originally posted by Jason W
Erle Montaige in his book on Dim Mak talks of two points, one over each kidney, that if stuck in an inward+downward circling manner at a certain time would have this effect. Never tried it myself so can't vouch for it...but its in the the literature if you look hard enough for it.

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon

which direction? front back or side?
(maybe i should try it on myself in the shower - lool)

Gene Williams
1st March 2004, 23:41
Once again, pressure points are interesting, more for massage and reflexology, Quigong, etc. than for self defense. Everyone should know the major ones, learn to use a couple of the more easily applied, but not rely upon them in a real life fight. Too much of this and I think you are trying to substitute some "magic" technique for hard work and learning to punch, kick, and choke, and good hard conditioning.;)

Gcastill
3rd March 2004, 06:35
my profession is that of an acupuncturist and with regards to all that I had been reading, from a strictly academic point of view if you really understand zang and fu organs, shu, source points ect. One key element that comes into play when regards to point activation, that is the condition of the uke. Sure there are command/local/distal points that you can use to activate a condition + or - but , you still have to have some information before that happens. With that said try the lower uniting-he points combined with one of the four command points in mostly likely ST-36. Depending on Uke's condition I think you can make em lose more then their lunch.

regards,

Gregory Castillian

Jason W
3rd March 2004, 11:01
Jaxon,

You are standing behind your opponent, facing their back. The strike I believe is a kung-fu strike, a double palm strike with an inward rotation of the hands, ie. left is clockwise, right is anti, against the kidney area slightly below, in a downward angle.

This apparently reverses the flow of the Urinary bladder meridian, causing the energy, and ultimately everything thats in the bowels, to fall downwards.

As I said, thats just what's in the book...never tried it, although a Tai Ji buddy of mine assures me he has seen it done in the Tong Long club he used to train at.

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon

Gene Williams
3rd March 2004, 11:15
Great idea...if I can convince the mugger to turn arouind for a moment...:D

MikeWilliams
3rd March 2004, 13:43
Well it's got to be better than finding a spot two inches up his anus.

Gene Williams
3rd March 2004, 14:31
I think some of the SanFrancisco dojo practice that technique;)

jaxonbrown
4th March 2004, 13:13
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Once again, pressure points are interesting, more for massage and reflexology, Quigong, etc. than for self defense. Everyone should know the major ones, learn to use a couple of the more easily applied, but not rely upon them in a real life fight. Too much of this and I think you are trying to substitute some "magic" technique for hard work and learning to punch, kick, and choke, and good hard conditioning.;)

quoted for truth. this should be the standard answer to people who question pp application. from seeing pp used in training, they should be used to amplify a technique not be a technique in itself.

jaxonbrown
4th March 2004, 13:20
Originally posted by Gcastill
my profession is that of an acupuncturist and with regards to all that I had been reading, from a strictly academic point of view if you really understand zang and fu organs, shu, source points ect. One key element that comes into play when regards to point activation, that is the condition of the uke. Sure there are command/local/distal points that you can use to activate a condition + or - but , you still have to have some information before that happens. With that said try the lower uniting-he points combined with one of the four command points in mostly likely ST-36. Depending on Uke's condition I think you can make em lose more then their lunch.

regards,

Gregory Castillian

in your opinion, would this be viable in a self-defense situation? uke is aggressive and adrenalized and moving unpredictably. causing someone to soil themselves certainly would stop aggressive tendencies (unless they are used to it like bums and mental cases)

jaxonbrown
4th March 2004, 13:25
Originally posted by Jason W
Jaxon,

You are standing behind your opponent, facing their back. The strike I believe is a kung-fu strike, a double palm strike with an inward rotation of the hands, ie. left is clockwise, right is anti, against the kidney area slightly below, in a downward angle.

This apparently reverses the flow of the Urinary bladder meridian, causing the energy, and ultimately everything thats in the bowels, to fall downwards.

As I said, thats just what's in the book...never tried it, although a Tai Ji buddy of mine assures me he has seen it done in the Tong Long club he used to train at.

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon

thanks, yea i can see it. basically, arms forming a circle with palms out, fingertips almost touching right? this would be a tough one to pull off with an uncompliant uke it appears.

jaxonbrown
4th March 2004, 13:32
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I think some of the SanFrancisco dojo practice that technique;)

yea, they can apply pp technique not with just their fingers!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Gcastill
5th March 2004, 09:18
I guess in the big picture and I mean the really big picture if you have enough time or have an internal clock going in your head and you are constantly thinking about the diurnal flow of chi through the jing mai and hit a point (and by the way it could not be a local kidney point as they run up the front of the body) then you must be one bad hombre. Not that it cannot be done, but the expertise involved is so high. Then there is the question of energetics and penetration, the body does tense up under pressure and this pressure does not have to be that extreme for tension to happen there is thick muscle in the thoracic and lumbar regions. My personal guess at these points are bl-19 and 20 but from a shear medical opinion any blow to the Kidneys is going to hurt if you hit that are area hard enough. This is classic to boxing and many other pugilistic forms. I say keep it simple and donít do anything that is going to land you in prison for excessive force.

Gregory Castillian

3x3
11th July 2008, 00:01
Hi all,
My first post so here goes

Last weekend one of my students made an arrest... The guy was big, probably on something. 3 doses of the (pepper/ capsicum) spray and he was still aggressive.

While he was busy busting one officer's face (20 year judo guy; not my student) the other (my student) put him in ushirojime (sleeper). It took a few seconds to bite. The guy went unconscious and was cuffed. He smelled bad. He had filled his pants.

I have three points:

1) Messing with pressure points against this guy would not have ended well.
2) While everyone wants pressure points to be real, in the actual situation, you will need courage and simple but effective technique way more than you will need to know about a secret point 1" inside the anus or just above the kidneys to be struck in a circular motion at a certain time of day etc, etc.
3) Did the guy lose 'a lot more than his lunch' because he was on something? did it happen because of the physical stress of the spray? Because of the strangle? Maybe the arresting officer accidentally touched the pressure points with his buttons and it just happened to be the exact right time of day? Maybe the guy just really needed to go!!

I think these points have been made by others already, but hopefully this practical example will help.

Regards,
Peter Hills

Gcastill
11th July 2008, 00:45
True, true if you don't have the skills then you should not try to deploy them. But the PP thing well to me it does not matter because PPs are part of a larger whole. Heck a choke hold is a pressure point, a blow to the side of the head with a PR24 could be a pressure point attack. For me most of the times I have had to effect an arrest or restrain someone my employment of PPs have never failed, but keep in mind said point(s) may have only been used to set up another type of movement/attack or to make another opening or to cause movement, PP are part of a whole skill set including when, how and where they (PPs) can be used, and it takes time to learn this stuff which most professional people don't have, and most of the time after you learn this stuff whatever was the driving force changes and thus the fighter changes, he/she does not fight anymore or for completely different reasons. I practice TCM traditional Chinese Medicine and there are many points that have certain contraindications, but some of those same point when used in different circumstances give great relief and in some cases save lives- pp are not a silver bullet- Amen for your boy effecting a good arrest and making it home for dinner unharmed.

Dean Whittle
11th July 2008, 03:03
During a seminar tour in 92, Charles Daniel, a high ranking Bujinkan Instructor took us through a number of pressure points, including one which he claimed causes the 'recipient' to defecate and urinate simultaneously. The point was on the front of the body and needed to be struck on a downward angle to have the 'desired' affect. No one volunteered for the demonstration so I don't know about it's true effectiveness, but I do agree with the above comments that specific PP striking is almost useless against an adrenalised opponent.

Ellis Amdur wrote a short piece on using pressure point striking, I forget where he originally posted it but here's a copy:

. I had a very close friend who was a judoka. A very sturdy man - five feet, eight inches, and one hundred eighty pounds - all muscle. We were drinking a few beers at his house, and I decided to f** with him (he was my friend, after all) and try something out at the same time. (Actually, we'd had quite a few beers.)

I turned to him and said, "You know, thanks to my studies in koryu, judo appears to me to be mere kid's stuff, easily defeated."

Y - "You shouldn't kid around like that, Ellis."

E - "No, I mean it. I'm now completely invulnerable to being choked out."

Y - "You may think that's funny, but you shouldn't say things like that! Some people could take it seriously and get pissed off."

E -"Oh, you don't think I'm serious then. Go ahead and try to choke me, then."

My friend had a hot temper, so we were good to go. To make it even easier for him, I put on my kiekko gi top, lay on my back, and he put on a cross-collar choke. "Go ahead," I said. "Sorry to hurt your feelings like this, but you should know the deficiencies of what you were studying all these years."

He cinched on the choke and just as it was tightening, I took my knuckles and simultaneously pressed with all my might at the bottom of his floating ribs. (Note: The man was an expert, doing what he did best. He was relaxed. And drunk. Relaxed even more.) He shot completely over my head, and I shrugged his hands off my collar.

The man was devastated. He sat there with his head in his hands, saying, "I don't believe it. You've destroyed my life. So this is kyushojutsu! My judo is nothing." (We were very drunk, actually).

I had another beer, and had mercy on him. And I wanted to see if what my teacher (mentioned in the last post) was telling me the truth about kyusho and tsubo. I said, "Wanna try again."

"What would be the point?" he said. He was really hurting. If this had been a couple hundred of years ago, he would have had to give me his dojo.

E- "O.K. Listen. Listen to me, brother! This is important! Imagine you don't know me. You know that statue of your father downstairs? You don't know me and I came into your house and broke it. Your dead dad's statue in pieces all over the floor. Then I laughed at your mother when she saw it and began crying. Then I molested your sister! I did! Imagining all that? Good. Now, c'mon. Choke me now. Choke me now!"

Remember the old Mickey Mouse cartoons, where there is a bull in a field, and he turns color and smoke comes out of his nose and ears. Y was sort of like that - anyway, something was coming out of his nose at that point - and he got the "mount" and cinched on the choke. HARD. I used my knuckles again. It was like pushing into corregated steel. I started to go out, and I thought, "What the f***. Let's take it all the way." I spread my arms wide, and hit him with my knuckles right in the floating rib points as hard as I possible could. Once. Twice. Fade to black.

When I awoke, Y was pouring himself a beer with a relieved look on his face. "Thanks, Ellis. I was worried there for a second."

E - "Was I out a long time?"

Y - "Oh, no, not that. I mean, I was worried about my judo." END

With respect

Duanew
11th July 2008, 20:50
I have had two instructors tell me you could make someone urinate by striking at a downward angle on the lower abdomen-both situations took place in a bar....
Ok, you're in an environment where people pee regularily. The bladder is now a small balloon filled with urine.....the urine is kept in by a small muscle....someone punches downward creating pressure against the bladder....overcoming the small muscles ability to hold it back...and they call that KYUSHO. I call is basic physics.