View Full Version : You can't use knockouts in a real engagement!
stanley neptune
23rd March 2004, 14:46
I believe there is a place for pressure point usage. Especially in the grappling/clinch range. In fact Evan Pantazzi has a great tape on pressure point grappling. It is one of the best in my library.
But to think you can use Kyusho to knock some one out it in a real adrenaline filled physical engagement is unrealistic. If ever attacked on the street are you really going to try to find a quarter size point on some 275 pound dude's gall bladder meridian and try to knock that person out. The motor skills required are too fine; not to mention there just would not be enough time.
Gross motor skills and blunt trauma are where it is at.
Dillman and Pantazzi knockout videos are fine exhibits of parlor tricks, but that is where they should stay. In the parlor.
Stanley Neptune
Gene Williams
23rd March 2004, 14:52
You are right, Stanley. BTW, Dillman has got to be the greatest example of a "mouse that roared" to ever come down the pike. I had one of his so-called black belts visit my dojo once. He was working with one of my dan and trying to find his ulnar nerve (a fairly simple pressure point). He could never make my student wince, but next day my student's arm had bruises all over it around the site where the guy was pressing:D I met Dillman at a tournament once. Black gi with red stripes, hair styled, manicure, limp hand shake. Jesus, I thought I was talking to one of the cast members of Friends.
bradley john
23rd March 2004, 22:52
You guys really amaze me. With just one hand shake, and watching a few so called parlor tricks on video, you have decided that pressure points have no combat worthyness.
You had one so called black belt from DKI try to show you something on one of your students. He screwed it up, and now you have pronounced the whole pressure point stuff is a joke in a real combat situation? i will be the first to agree with you that there are alot of dan ranks in DKI that dont impress me what so ever. I have visited a few dojos of different styles and have watched their best in action. At least 99% of the time i am not impressed at all, with anything they do. I still havent made it to your level that pressure points have no use in a real combat situation.
I have been to a few grappleing classes and i have witnessed the head instructor screw up a few things. But i did'nt stand there and tell him, his whole system is a joke and not combat effective.
What rank do you have to be and in what style to be this smart?
How long have you trained in pressure points? Who was your instructor?
I do agree that pressure points have no benifit in a real fight, especially if you dont train that way.
Here's an idea, when shaking George dillman's hand the next time, give him some of that blunt trauma you brag about. Maybe he will show you how pressure points really work in a fight.
bradley john
Gene Williams
23rd March 2004, 23:24
Gee, Bradley, I've never bragged about blunt trauma. I am very familiar with Dillman and his BS nonsense. Pressure points have their place, although a small one. Have you ever been in a real fight?
bradley john
24th March 2004, 13:22
Hi Gene
Yes, I have been real fights before. Yes, I was able to use pressure points in the fights. [but i have also been training to do so for 10 years] Is there any guarantees in a fight that you will win? Heck no!
Pressure points are NOT the total package to your fighting skills. They are only one small part of your fighting skills. [or style] A style is just a delivery system. [of a punch and kick among other things] Gene I would not argue with you, which style or system is the best. But I would argue with you that pressure points added to the style that you practice WILL make your style better, and more effective. [only ,and only if you train to do so propperly] Gene would you agree to any of this paragraph?
Alot of the time i see people that train in pressure point fighting brag about the KO's that they do. I have been around them for a great while now, and I will be the first to stand up and tell them that they could not fight their way out of a girlscout meeting. But on the other side of it, I have seen some people that are VERY good at adding PP to an allready good fighting style. They dont have any problem with fighting their way out of an bar brawl. Dose this make them like super man? NO it doesn't , but it does give them an advantage to a certain degree. Gene would you agree with any of this paragraph?
A fight is a fight. He that hits the firstest and the mostest, USUALLY has an advantage in the fight.
So if you are in a real fight, and you are trying to hit a pressure point, and you miss it. What is the worst thing that just happened? You still just hit him. If a person lands a strike on a PP and the guy is still in the fight, do I tell him that he is suppose to be KO'ed? NO! I continue the fight untill one of us has had enough.
Gene, dose this sound any different than your fight plan?
If you get into a fight with just an above average boxer, TKD, ground fighter, college wrestler, street fighter, kickboxer, you had better bring some good fighting skills to the fight. If you dont they will kick your backside and make you look stupid. I am going to be the guy in the fight trying to hit PP when i can. And if i miss ,,, aahhh heck I still got to hit him. But after a few years of training, I find that I DO hit PP in real fights alot of the time. And if they dont go down, i keep the pressure on them untill they do ,,, or I do....lol
Gene, what do you mean by the BS that dillman teaches? Would you care to expand on that statement? I do for a fact know that at the age of 61, george dillman is for a fact, still a fighting force to contend with.
Gene , now that i have practiced my typing for a while, are we really that far from agreeing with each other about pressure points in a real fight?
Good talking to you.
best wishes
bradley john
Gene Williams
24th March 2004, 14:41
Actually, Bradley, we are probably a long way from agreeing. Anyone trying to defend Dillman has already lost credibility in my view. Sorry. BTW, there are a couple of threads on Dillman in here somewhere. You may want to do a search.
stanley neptune
24th March 2004, 15:07
Bradley,
Thanks! I can't speak for Gene but I think you are amazing too.
Stanley Neptune
bradley john
24th March 2004, 17:52
Hi Stanley
Thanks for the kind words!
Gene
Are you going to clarify the statement you made about dillman teaching BS? What is the BS that you are reffering to?
your buddy
bradley john
Rogier
25th March 2004, 08:16
Hi Bradley..
As Gene said, if you do a search with the keyword 'Dillman' you'll find enough information to get a good view of what people here think of Dillman and why they think that way..
stanley neptune
25th March 2004, 13:58
Bradley,
I was kidding. These are what we call jokes.
Stanley Neptune
bradley john
2nd April 2004, 14:21
That's it! I quit martial arts. I was caught by Gene defending Dillman. How can i show my face in public again? How can i ever put my uniform on again ,knowing that Gene has no respect for anyone saying that they can hit a pressure point in a real fight? When will Gene be on ESPN or Showtime to tell all those boxers that they too cant hit any pressure points that they are trying to hit?
Whoa is me! Gene how can i regain good status in your eyes? I have now seen the error of my training. That should be the first step in my recovery? Admitting that i was wrong is the first step? I feel like i have been to the top of the mountain and gained a new outlook on martial arts. Gene you are the one i have to thank for that.
Please tell me Gene that i am not banished from your good graces forever? I will work very hard to regain your confidence in me.
your buddy bradley john
Ken Allgeier
5th April 2004, 17:17
Information on Dillman.
http://experts.about.com/q/332/2974857.htm
Ken Allgeier
Gene Williams
5th April 2004, 18:05
Bradley, You were asking what to do to get back in my good graces...:D Take a metal paper clip in each hand, stand in a pan of water, and stick the paper clips into the nearest wall socket. There's your one touch knockout. Go for it...
Goju Man
6th April 2004, 01:08
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Bradley, You were asking what to do to get back in my good graces...:D Take a metal paper clip in each hand, stand in a pan of water, and stick the paper clips into the nearest wall socket. There's your one touch knockout. Go for it...
Gene, you ca go on tour with that one and start an ogaization where a lot of fat, out of shape guys with improperly tied obis will pay you big money. :D
Bradley, in a real fight, with a SKILLED opponent, trying to hit him solid enough for a good strike that can at least hurt him is hard enough.When you talk about a point the size of a quarter coupled with the fact that almost all of them require a set up point about the same size,(that makes two of them) is a pipe dream.
Gene Williams
6th April 2004, 11:42
Originally posted by Goju Man
Gene, you ca go on tour with that one and start an ogaization where a lot of fat, out of shape guys with improperly tied obis will pay you big money. :D
Bradley, in a real fight, with a SKILLED opponent, trying to hit him solid enough for a good strike that can at least hurt him is hard enough.When you talk about a point the size of a quarter coupled with the fact that almost all of them require a set up point about the same size,(that makes two of them) is a pipe dream.
That is so true. Look at boxers...they train to hit the head more than anybody and look how hard it is for them to land a clean shot. Look at the Gracies...it has taken them as long as 45 minutes to finish a guy. Clean shots (unless you sneak punch someone) and clean locks are harder to get than you think. Dillman is a lot of mumbo jumbo, and anyone relying on pressure points in a street fight will end up in the ER.
Jock Armstrong
6th April 2004, 15:14
"Real fights" are actually really easy to train for- just get real good at throwing fast and accurate techs. Oh, and use those kyuusho points like the point of the chin, the solar plexus, the eyes.....oh gee- did I get logical or something......
Getting a clean shot- thats what combos are for.
Troll Basher
9th April 2004, 08:54
I don’t know where all this one/no touch kyusho mumbo jumbo came from....maybe a “Dillmanite” thing.
Again I think folks have taken a concept that is quite viable in “real world” application and made something ridiculous out of it.
What is a pressure point/kyusho point?
How about the outside of the thigh about half way down or just above the knee on the inside of the knee. Those are 2 fine pressure point/kyusho points that any Thai kickboxer will use and in some cases even win a fight by.
My good friend and sometimes training partner is trying to break into K-1 via Nicholas Petas’ dojo. At 6'5" and 285lbs (not much fat either) he is rather big and in his first fight got hit in the above mentioned points and had severe pain for about 1 week. He lost the fight on points but said had he stayed in any longer his legs would have given out.
Peter Aerts of K-1 kicked an opponent in the side of the neck once and KOed him, although that is not a pressure point/kyusho point as claimed by some, it was effective.
My point......the popular Karate Rag-Mag version of pressure point/kyusho as practiced by fat slobs with beer guts that give off enough shade I could park my Caddy under is highly suspect, however, if trained in a realistic manner pressure point/kyusho points can be helpful in real world fights.
Gene Williams
9th April 2004, 12:02
There is a difference between striking pressure points with full power kicks and punches where hydrostatic shock is much of the effect and tapping or merely pressing them like some try to do.
stanley neptune
9th April 2004, 13:51
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goju Man
[B]Gene, you ca go on tour with that one and start an ogaization where a lot of fat, out of shape guys with improperly tied obis will pay you big money. :D
Fat out of shape guys with poorly tied Obis??!! Sign me up. We could call the Organization the Butter Ball Bujinkan!! Or the Shao Lard Monks!!
Stanley Neptune
Goju Man
9th April 2004, 15:57
There is a difference between striking pressure points with full power kicks and punches where hydrostatic shock is much of the effect and tapping or merely pressing them like some try to do.
Agreed Gene. Thai boxers hit kyusho points to the legs. The chin can aso be considered a kyusho point I guess. But in thai matches, it takes more than one strike. In boxing, karate or even street fighting, it is sometimes an accumulation of strikes that accomplish a given result. But the myth of hitting a point, followed by another specific point and the like is not realistic.
Gene Williams
9th April 2004, 21:04
Manny, Looks like everybody wants an easy way. Fighting is hard, mean, sweaty, inexact at times, and requires stamina, strength, and smarts. Worthy opponents don't go down because you hit them hard once or twice and maybe draw some blood. Ali fought nine rounds with a broken jaw, remember? There are some tough guys out there, not necessarily martial artists, who take some fighting to put down. All you pressure point guys are dreaming if that is all you've got.
Goju Man
9th April 2004, 22:06
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Manny, Looks like everybody wants an easy way. Fighting is hard, mean, sweaty, inexact at times, and requires stamina, strength, and smarts. Worthy opponents don't go down because you hit them hard once or twice and maybe draw some blood. Ali fought nine rounds with a broken jaw, remember? There are some tough guys out there, not necessarily martial artists, who take some fighting to put down. All you pressure point guys are dreaming if that is all you've got.
Amen brother. And it takes sweat, blood and tears in training with basic, proven techniques. But let's face it, it's much easier to attend a seminar.:D
Joe Logue
11th April 2004, 04:50
Hello everyone,
When first I started to learn Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu 18 years ago, I too didn't believe that such techniques were real, or useful in a real
self defense situation. After about a dozen times that my teacher,
Stan Hart of Mansfield, Ohio,(www.hakuda.com),made my knees buckle and my head so dizzy that I couldn't get up--I decided to train hard and during my six years of lessons with him--learned to believe in it. Stan learned the proper way from his teacher, Seiyu Oyata after many years of study. The REMEDIAL portrayal that Dillman does is based upon attending a few seminars,a total training period of 18 months!!! To most self defense/martial arts styles--this is a yellow or green belt level of training--obviously still at a REMEDIAL level. No one in his right mind would accept a green belt's skill level to be held in high respect/credulous to properly represent a self defense system's technique, such as Kyusho Jitsu. This, along with Mr. Oyata's words directly said to me in 1988/89 that Dillman "No know Tuite, only come to seminar" obviously shows that Dillman is not a good example of Kyusho Jitsu and thus should not be used to judge what's correctly performed techniques.(See Ken Allgeier's post above and the wesite post from Robert Roussolet, another student of Seiyu Oyata.
When Kyusho is applied correctly--it gives shocks to muscles in a manner which causes the body to react in pain/relax--whether it be applied to the attacker's arm,neck, stomache side, face, etc...
I prefer to call it a "shocking method" not a guaranteed Knock out.
As Mr.Oyata taught Stan and Stan repeated to me--when you hit an attacker with this technique--it should make them feel that "they just put their finger in a light socket" --this is how I felt after Stan would apply it on my body, as well as when Mr.Oyata did it to me, as well as when I've done it to some of my students.
The "K.O." hype is used by Dillman to simply attract money from people who have never felt it from Seiyu Oyata or his students.
Please consider my message and when you judge Kyusho Jitsu, as decended from Mr.Oyata--please don't use Dillman to be the example.
Best regards to all,
Joe Logue
arm
Gene Williams
11th April 2004, 11:35
I am familiar with Oyata and his students in Ryukyu Kempo and they are quite competent martial aertists. But, there is absolutely no resemblance between them and idiots like Dillman, et al. They are a traditional Okinawan ryu, practice kata and applications, and do not rely upon mickey mouse showtime techniques to get an audience. They use lots of atemi, as well, and direct it towards pp. My impression is that what they are actually doing is more like Japanese jujutsu than kyusho as it is being discussed here.
Joe Logue
11th April 2004, 12:38
I just wanted to say thanks Gene for your complementary witness to our art. Also Gene, I just want to clarify that with the self defense techniques that I've learned through the katas, about 50% are the grappling or "Japanese Jujitsu" type of movements--(but are absolutely not 'joint locking' techniques), the other 50% directly from the katas are the strikes/shocking techniques. These strikes are well hidden in the katas and are not shown as much in seminars or to beginner students of the "method", thus I can understand your impression with the art being mostly grappling with a few "atemi" strikes thrown in.
I am posting here because one of teachers in the U.S. from whom the words "Kyusho Jutsu" was made famous is Seiyu Oyata--unfortunately also Dillman tries to appear to be authoritative/authentic in Kyusho Jutsu by naming Mr. Oyata as one of his teachers--"inspired by Seiyu Oyata"--I believe is written in his Tuite and Kyusho "books". Thus I feel it necessary to clarify that Dillman's REMIDIAL portrayal of Mr. Oyata's Kyusho Jutsu is Not what we practice. The hogwash of precisely hitting "pressure points" and "quarter sized" nerve/vital points is not what 50% of Mr. Oyata's method is all about. I totally agree with the previous posts here that in a real situation, one can't find these little "points" quickly and efficiently. The "Dillman Method" of Kyusho is not our method.
Thus, when people judge the ability to use "Kyusho Jutsu" in a real panic/self defense situation, using Dillman as a base example is going to be very misleading. In my own,personal opinion, it's better to use the term "Dillman Method of pressure point striking" than to use the authentic Oyata based term of "Kyusho Jutsu" in this or other discussions as it reflects incorrectly back upon our method of self defense--especially for those not like Gene who haven't actually seen or experienced Mr. Oyata's Kyusho Jutsu.
Sorry to interupt again, but I just wanted to clarify this.
Best regards,
Joe Logue
Gene Williams
11th April 2004, 15:49
Hey Joe, There was a guy named Logue in S.C. who taught Ryukyu Kempo. Oyata came to his dojo back in the late 70's and we went to the workout. Good stuff! Are you kin to him?
Goju Man
11th April 2004, 17:01
Joe, I don't know of Oyata first hand to comment of him. Of course you've felt "shocked" when certain techniques are applied to you. Take into consideration that you are in a controlled atmosphere and a cooperating uke. I have performed similar "shocks" in many classes also, it's really not rocket science. If you want to stand there and let me softly stimulate a few locations on your body, I could produce similar effects. However, sometimes it is just not tha easy to strike these points as they are shown. That being said, pp do have their place in combat, as long as we're not talking about the L1 followed by H4 and so on.
Joe Logue
11th April 2004, 17:17
Gene--No, I am not kin to Jim, just a coincidence on the last name.
I've met him before, very nice guy and is an excellent teacher of Tuite/Kyusho Jitsu--a direct, top level student of Seiyu Oyata.
Manny--Unlike the REMEDIAL training that Dillman shows on his tapes and seminars, we NEVER train without a realistic, uncooperating "UKE".The word "UKE", as taught to me by Stan Hart, refers to someone who is trying to block/obstruct/stop your technique
from succeeding--not to just stand there like a zombie as many
train today.
This is another reason I've posted here--once again--please don't confuse our techniques & training methods with those of Dillman, or
other "Great Masters".
Sincerely,
Joe Logue
Goju Man
11th April 2004, 17:43
Joe, I respect your position on the subject. I don't know how much or often or what you guys do. My personal opinion, and it's just that, my opinion is that too much emphasis is placed on pp and good ole fashion basic techniques, (which are by far the most successful) are often overlooked or under worked in liu of these techniques. I think Shotokan proved this point, as well as Judo did by removing the "deadly" techniques and working on the others. This is no dis respect to you or your dojo.
Joe Logue
12th April 2004, 05:07
Manny, et al,
I totally agree with Manny. One may ask how can I do that and
still practice our PP techniques??? Answer--we don't practice modern striking, or Dillman-like techniques to "Pressure Points,or to Chi/Ki lines/flows, or to little 'DILLMAN DOTS' painted on arms, or nerve points, or Acupressure/Acupuncture points". We practice the bio-mechanical,efficient movements in order to shock and contract the attacker's muscles with a proper snapping motion found in all
of the classical Okinawan katas.
What WE practice has absolutely nothing to do with the above mentioned "PP" or related methods. We don't retract our arm first and then try to hit a Pressure Point hard. Mr. Oyata taught Stan a very valuable saying, which he passed onto me--"Don't try to be stronger than him,just make him weaker than you". If you don't understand this ancient, hidden method,I'll ask you to do two things--first--pay money to the "Master" George Dillman and go to his seminar. Volunteer to be hit, see if he first retracts, hits you hard and then grabs you, or his students grab you immediately and ask you if you're "all right" and ask you if you want "to lay down", as if you don't have the ability to balance by yourself after receiving the great Dillman hit.
If you don't see any difference in the hit that you've received from the hits you've received before in other MA systems--then do the second step and go to one of Mr.Oyata's or his students' seminars, receive a strike and then post the results on this thread.
Afterwhich, you may see a bit more clearly why I also don't believe
in "Pressure Point" techniques in a real self defense stuation.
I guess that's the total beginning and end of it on my part.
Have fun experiencing the difference!!!
Joe Logue
Jeff Cook
13th April 2004, 00:22
Manny, I think you and Joe are closer on this topic than you think.
I too practice in a way that Joe describes his practice. The atemi waza is effective even if the "point" is not directly and perfectly hit. Also, slashing types of impact, as with a tekatana (Robert, is that the proper term?) has the benefit of rolling/twisting muscle in a certain direction causing tears/involuntary contraction, which not only affects the agonist but also the antagonistic muscle groups. As previously mentioned, any strike to the common peroneal or sciatic nerves can be accomplished with a blocking movement, not necessarily an attacking movement.
This is also true of judo; I had a very large opponent attempt to throw me with haraigoshi. My defense was of course to lower my hips, and I also toed-in to a sanchindachi, which caused my training opponent to crash into my knees. The impact to the back of his leg along a nerve caused him to collapse, unable to stand for about five minutes.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Goju Man
13th April 2004, 00:31
Jeff, there are many points that are vulnerable on the body. But, if your weapons are not well trained, you can know those and a thousand more which will not serve you. I prefe to train the weapons of which to inflict damage, and strike where I can. Too many people forget the kicking and punching training because it takes a lot of work and sweat. Now, I am not saying this about Joe, it is just a general statement I've noticed about many other schools. There are many karate ka who train very hard, they usually will find those spots very quickly.
Jeff Cook
13th April 2004, 03:02
Manny, I agree, and I bet Joe does too. ;)
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Troll Basher
17th April 2004, 23:32
Regarding not hitting the "spot" as done in the "color by kyusho" dojo.....In Mr. Oyata's dojo a lot of emphasis has been place on makiwara training on both hands and feet as well as using a type of wooden man dummy for conditioning the forearms, striking heavy bags (300 lbs. or more).
When Mr. Oyata did a forearm block on me once I thought my arm was going to break.....no doubt it was the result of the above mentioned conditioning... there was no need for him to hit any p.point. I think he could have hit it any place and it would have hurt like hell. Using pressure points after such conditioning is just a bonus if you ask me. Either way, doing light little tippy taps is not what kyusho or atemi is about. When you strike you need to do it with the intent of "rocking their world".
Goju Man
18th April 2004, 18:04
Jeff, you are probably right. I think the kind of training that Robert speaks of is probably what many karate systems were all about. Hard training, body conditioning and solid fundamentals are what gets it done. A block is also a strike, a philosophy I trained by for a long time. It wasn't what pp I would hit, but rather what ever I did hit was going to hurt good.
Jeff Cook
18th April 2004, 21:07
Manny and Robert,
Any place on the body struck hard enough is going to be a "pressure point" to the recipient of the blow! ;)
Robert, nice to see you around still. What you said reminds me of a few (and far between) sensei I have had the "pleasure" of receiving their blows. Those old guys could kick me in the leg hard enough to "trigger" pp's on top of my skull! Is Mr. Oyata's wooden dummy similar to the ones used in wing tsun? Does he drill it in the same manner as the wing tsun folks?
Manny, I still don't know when I will be down to Miami. Will keep you posted.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Goju Man
19th April 2004, 03:20
Jeff, hope you can make it. You are right about the whole body kind of being a pp. That's where the good ole KARATE training comes in.
Troll Basher
19th April 2004, 08:02
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Is Mr. Oyata's wooden dummy similar to the ones used in wing tsun? Does he drill it in the same manner as the wing tsun folks?
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
I never saw the one he used in Okinawa. The one he uses in the US is basically some baseball bats ( the fat parts )sticking out of a post.
From what I gather it was used in a similar fashion to wing chun. However, it was also used to "hard" conditioning as well. This meant it was basically struck with the forearm instead of just "hooking" it as some folks do.
His makiwara was a 4x4, none of this tapered crap either, top to bottom was 4x4........I have never seen a 4x4 bend so far from being hit!
(BTW Jeff, I am working for "you guys" now (ARMY right?) I got moved from my nice "cushy" Marine base to an Army base here in Japan)
Jeff Cook
19th April 2004, 11:24
Damn. There goes the neighborhood! ;) I just came off of a one year Op Noble Eagle deployment at an air force base. Those air force people know how to live!
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Gene Williams
19th April 2004, 11:43
First thing the Air Force does when they arrive in a combat zone is pave over everything and put in an officer's club and a pool:D
Troll Basher
19th April 2004, 12:29
Originally posted by Gene Williams
First thing the Air Force does when they arrive in a combat zone is pave over everything and put in an officer's club and a pool:D
.......and a golf course!
Troll Basher
19th April 2004, 12:36
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
Damn. There goes the neighborhood! ;) I just came off of a one year Op Noble Eagle deployment at an air force base. Those air force people know how to live!
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
I was TDY on Yokota Air base and had a 3 bedroom Apt., 2 baths, 4 TVs, a washer and dryer etc.. all to myself.....funny thing is they (AirFarce guys) felt sorry for me. I was in heaven though! When I was on Iwakuni Marine Corp Air Station I was put in the BOQ and that was a room, a bed, a toliet and a small TV....and they (Marines) were jealous because I was livin' so high on the hog!
Goju Man
19th April 2004, 12:42
Originally posted by Gene Williams
First thing the Air Force does when they arrive in a combat zone is pave over everything and put in an officer's club and a pool:D
When I got to Rhein Main AFB, I thought man this is gonna be cool. A week later, I got to the Army base.:( I knew then and there I enlisted in the wrong one. :D
Troll Basher
19th April 2004, 12:46
Originally posted by Goju Man
When I got to Rhein Main AFB, I thought man this is gonna be cool. A week later, I got to the Army base.:( I knew then and there I enlisted in the wrong one. :D
Air Farce folks assigned to an Army base get a housing allowance because it is considered "sub-standard".......hell I wonder what they would get if they stayed ona Marine base!........probably a net set of golf clubs with a matching caddy!
Jeff Cook
19th April 2004, 23:00
Well, the USAF put us in contract housing off base; the digs were better than my home of record! They actually cancelled that contract because they felt the apartments were substandard.
I gotta say the chow is quite a bit better as well. Not quite as good as Navy mess, but pretty close. Heck, lots of times I have passed up an Army hot meal in favor of an MRE. At least I knew my chances of catching salmonella were less with the MRE.
I guess we are drifting a bit off topic?
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Troll Basher
19th April 2004, 23:09
Originally posted by Jeff Cook
I guess we are drifting a bit off topic?
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Maybe it's because we all pretty much agree on pps and the Air farce.....
Goju Man
20th April 2004, 02:21
Yeah, I think you guys are right. I can say that I never had the pleasure of MRE's, I'm an older goat that goes back to C rations. I still hve my opener on my key chain. Try eating C rats without your trusty p38. :D ( and is also good for about a hundred other things )
Well, another thread gone by the wayside.:D
Joe Logue
20th April 2004, 19:09
Just a comment--
When I trained in American "Karate"--we were always taught the old saying that a strike is a block & a block is a strike and the two should be performed the same. I became a black belt in it,totally believed in it & began to teach this method as well. I was later enlightened by my Tuite/Kyusho teacher, Stan Hart, for six years and realized that this method wasn't necessarily true when it came to the old Okinawan self defense applications, as taught to him by Mr. Oyata. Basically, and the best way that I could describe it for those who haven't been trained in it is that the "block" or better stated redirection/grappling technique is a "dragging" motion on the attacker's muscles, the "strike"/Kyusho is more of a shocking motion done upon the attacker's muscles.
Thus, I fully understand and totally respect the Karate method of hitting hard and simultaneously striking and blocking with the same arm/hand--but it is not what I've trained in for the last 18 years and if one tries to learn the older method--it becomes apparent that there is a difference in how you apply your body in "blocking & striking". The exact same kata motion--i.e. a gedan barai/downward block-- can be applied to redirect/grapple--dragging, or striking---shocking. This Karate method of block& strike being the same is one of the many mistakes that Mr.Dillman or others make when trying to perform "Kyusho Jutsu" --thus as I first started to comment on this thread--please don't judge our Kyusho Jutsu by using "The Dillman Method".
Food for thought...
Best regards,
Joe logue
Richard Horrowi
20th April 2004, 23:13
Hey Joe ( where you goin with that gun in your hand?) LOL
Joe what you've learned in the last 18 yrs is great. Of course that's your perrogative and perspective on it. Higaonna Sensei doesn't teach his people the same way Oyata teaches so is his method incorrect? I very highly doubt it! However as mentioned previously Oyata uses sawed off baseball bats on his own version of a Wing Chun dummy, Higaonna does the same.
I can understand Oyatas students not wanting to be thought of in the same sentence as Mr. Dillman. However maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems you want everyone to view Oyata Senseis method as the only true correct method?
Incidently I read Dillman claimed he received an 8th Dan under Oyata Sensei. I don't believe this for a minute, however can you clarify what their relationship was, and if in fact Dillman ever received any rank at all from Oyata?
Thanks
RH
Joe Logue
21st April 2004, 05:17
Hi Richard,(a.k.a. Jimmy Hendricks fan)...
Let me do my best to answer your two valid questions:
1.Categorically, absolutely & positively--I don't think how I've trained is the "Best" or "better" than other methods. If I was an attacker, I wouldn't want to be struck with our method of Kyusho Jutsu or your method of Goju Ryu--or any method for that matter. Most of us here on E-Budo are people who trained in authentic methods of self preservation--trained differently--but equally. I personally think that the method I changed to 18 years ago was more efficient for ME than what I had previously practiced--as I'm getting older, I'm getting faster & better--the same I've seen with Stan Hart--the same he saw with Seiyu Oyata.Thus--I'm satisfied with my training for ME--not being egocentric and thinking my training is better than yours--just it's best/more bio-mechanically efficient & less based on physical strength for ME. Stan always said to me do what you,(I), think is best for me. He was correct. I also say these same words to my students.
Richard--I sincerely hope you and anyone else that has this erroneous idea of me would please read my last post here today--I said that "I understand and RESPECT" the Karate method also. Please re-read my last post on this thread. I assumed it was obvious.
2.Tuite/Kyusho "Master" Dillman-LOL!!...As I also stated in a previous post here on this thread---Mr. Oyata said to me personnally--from his lips to my ears--about two feet in front of me---not second hand "gossip"--"Georgie no know Tuite, just come seminar". If he said this, does it sound logical to anyone with an ounce of brain matter in their head that Dillman EVER received an "8th" degree from Oyata???? Not a hard question to answer. For the record, as Robert Rousselot has stated also on other posts as well, Mr. Dillman came to seminars for about a year an a half. Has anyone reading this message EVER , properly made a "green belt" level in a year and a half? Maybe some have--if you have--ask yourself a question and be honest--at a green belt level--could you properly and COMPLETELY teach a method of self preservation??? The only answer is of course NO.
The other story he passes out is that Hohen Soken--one of the greatest teachers of Okinawan Karate,
gave "Saint Georgie" a "secret scroll" with old Tuite/Kyusho Points on it to study. Firstly--can anyone learn a method of self preservation by reading a scroll???? Maybe he can, maybe pigs fly too. The other 99.999% of the world's martial arts practioners have to study many years to do it--but then again--George could have had "Divine intervention"-- and I also believe in Santa Claus,
(sorry Virginia if you're reading this...). Secondly--Hohen Soken took a picture with him once and then he has an urge to show Dillman a "secret scroll"??? Doesn't this look like a scene out of a bad "Kung-Fu" movie from the 1960's??!!!
The other great factor of the "DILLMAN METHOD" is his training with
Master "Professor" Wally Jay's "Small Circle Jujitsu". I'm sure Mr. Jay is a great Martial Artist--I'm sure his method is great as well,
but what the heck does this joint locking system have to do with Mr. Oyata's method???--NOTHING!!! Thus--the three main parts of his claims to "Authentic" Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu knowledge and an "8th" degree from Mr. Oyata in Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu are at best laughable!!! I don't care if he calls it "The Dillman Method", but to infer authenticity to his books by calling them "Tuite or Kyusho Jutsu" is just plain wrong and totally disrespectful to Mr. Oyata, or all of us who have trained hard for many years to learn the correct method.
So how he received an "8th" degree from Mr. Oyata would be only by "Divine intervention"--Maybe we should have him cannonized--"Saint Master Dillman"???!!!LOL
With these facts & how he can only say in his "books" that he was
"inspired" by Seiyu Oyata--you Richard and everyone else be the judge--is he an authentic "8th" degree in Tuite/Kyusho?? Are any of his students authentically Black Belts/Masters if "Saint Dillman" isn't???
The answers are obvious. So, once again, I hope the world wakes up and realizes that Saint George Dillman is about as good of a proper example of Tuite/Kyusho Jutsu as my Grandmother was of Goju Ryu, Shotokan, or Shorin Ryu...(although she was a tough lady...HA!!)
Let's just all be honest & remember that a fact is a fact is a fact.
Best regards to all,
Joe Logue
Ken Allgeier
21st April 2004, 06:06
" Hey Joe where are you going with that gun in your hand, going to shoot George Dillman,
caught him messing around with my Kyusho Jutsu."
AKA Jimi Hendrix :" Standing next to a mountain,chop it down with the edge of my hand"
Voodoo Chile;Electric Ladyland
Troll Basher
21st April 2004, 08:56
Originally posted by Joe Logue
Just a comment--
When I trained in American "Karate"--we were always taught the old saying that a strike is a block & a block is a strike and the two should be performed the same. I became a black belt in it,totally believed in it & began to teach this method as well. I was later enlightened by my Tuite/Kyusho teacher, Stan Hart, for six years and realized that this method wasn't necessarily true when it came to the old Okinawan self defense applications, as taught to him by Mr. Oyata.................. This Karate method of block& strike being the same is one of the many mistakes that Mr.Dillman or others make when trying to perform "Kyusho Jutsu"
Well actually he does teach this concept strike is a block & a block is a strike .............but that is only one of several interpretations he teaches for blocks and he takes the strike is a block & a block is a strike concept a bit deeper than Dillman does.
Originally posted by Joe Logue
--please don't judge our Kyusho Jutsu by using "The Dillman Method".
Yes, please don't think that anything Dillman teaches is similar to what Mr. Oyata teaches. Dillman just happens to use the word "Kyusho Jutsu" and that's where the similarity begins and ends.
Originally posted by Richard Horrowi
I can understand Oyatas students not wanting to be thought of in the same sentence as Mr. Dillman. However maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems you want everyone to view Oyata Senseis method as the only true correct method?
Mr. Oyata did introduce these concepts into the West, America specifically, and as such tends to be somewhat of a "yardstick" people are measured by, and Mr. Oyata can actually do/has done what he claims on not so willing "ukes".........and Mr. Dillman......well.......let's just say opinions vary.
Goju Man
21st April 2004, 12:08
Joe, now that we are on the subject, I have also changed my philosophy on blocking. Sinc my exposure to kickboxing and Ashihara, I prefer to parry than to block. That is just my personal preferrence, but respect the way my compadres did it in the old school. Not everything can work the same for everyone.
Troll Basher
21st April 2004, 12:11
Originally posted by Goju Man
Not everything can work the same for everyone.
Just to add to that thought........not everything works everytime. Which is why it is better to have an array of techniques and have some variations on them. Keep them simple and effective.
Joe Logue
21st April 2004, 14:45
Only Ken could change a classic song like that!!!:rolleyes:
OK Ken--now just for that--we're practicing lots of Kyusho to the neck tonight--and you're first on the mat!!!(That'll teach him!!....):D
Joe Logue
Richard Horrowi
21st April 2004, 21:55
Thanks to everyone for their responses!
I guess Dillmans kinda in a Purple Haze! Tryin Kyusho but he don't why? Excuse me while I kiss this guy! Or maybe that was Kim Dillman LOL!
I for one don't believe any of the Dillman history. I will say this anyone who will stand and let me hit them I'm sure as hell gonna knock out.
Later Gents!
RH
Andrew
25th April 2004, 17:14
I can see a pressure point being used in a grappling situation to either set something up, or to be applied to someone when they are physically restrained and then you want to cause them pain. Other than that, I see no real use for them. I find them easy to shake off when applied and all they do is cause pain, Pain can be overcome. In an all out fight, I think it would be really hard to set up a pressure point counter from an attack, or even setting up an attack involving pressure points.
bradley john
26th April 2004, 02:20
Still waiting for all you so called experts to go to Dillman's class and try him out.
It should not be too big of an challenge if everything you say is true?
bradley john
Troll Basher
26th April 2004, 07:50
Originally posted by bradley john
Still waiting for all you so called experts to go to Dillman's class and try him out.
It should not be too big of an challenge if everything you say is true?
bradley john
I havent read here where anyone claimed to be an expert.....please direct me to that paragraph or phrase.
Dillman actually came to my teachers class.......and if memory serves all he did was run around and video tape eveything.........didnt train, just taped others training.
There are a whole slew of people that have seen Georgie try to do techniques and bombed.
Richard Horrowi
26th April 2004, 09:13
Hi Bradley,
Would going to one of his Senior Yudanshas class suffice? Like someone who was in all of his books? I've done this and wasn't impressed at all. As a matter of fact they hardly broke a sweat training and didn't dare do any Kumite, or even pre arranged Kumite.
It was all applications on a limp indivdual or a grab. Hardly what I considered realistic.
Regards,
RH
Troll Basher
26th April 2004, 09:27
Originally posted by Richard Horrowi
Hi Bradley,
Would going to one of his Senior Yudanshas class suffice? ..........
Regards,
RH
Hell if that counts I had two of his students visit me here in Tokyo.
Neither could do anything to me or people in my class.
In fact one of my 6th kyu students handed one of them , a 4th dan, his !!! while doing kumite.
Originally posted by Richard Horrowi
It was all applications on a limp indivdual or a grab. Hardly what I considered realistic.
Regards,
RH
They did the same thing in my dojo. Pretty sorry stuff.
Hank Irwin
27th April 2004, 13:30
I have quite a few tapes of Mr. Dillman when he was doing his touring with Wally Jay & Reme Presas,etc. His stuff as GeneSan and RobertSan have said is garbage. His bicycle theory for one. "Just think of a bicycle wheel turning in your mind, and you won't be KOed" the supposed way he "revives" people also. Mr. Dillman at one point in his life was a solid KarateKa, but unfortunately like many others, at some point stepped over the line. There are many like him, many are worse. These men can not stand on their own 2 feet. James Coffman Sensei's site has some interesting facts listed about a few of the Kushi Bushi that are out there. It is entitled "The Weakest Link" I am sure many of you have read it already. Coffman Sensei was issued his teaching certificate by Hohan Soken O'Sensei. He trained with Soken O'Sensei from 60-64 in Okinawa. He was also Mr. Dillman's Sensei for awhile. Sensei's site is at www.smoka-usa.com You know, I find it interesting that many of our board members do not include their ages with profile. Many of them like to use that "you old guys" thingy a lot.
Gene Williams
27th April 2004, 13:33
I agree, Hank. A lot of folks still want to play the anonymous game. What are they hiding and what do they want to pretend?
Hank Irwin
28th April 2004, 12:25
Hey Gene Sensei! I got some time next week, coming by ok?:D
Troll Basher
28th April 2004, 12:49
Originally posted by Gene Williams
I agree, Hank. A lot of folks still want to play the anonymous game. What are they hiding and what do they want to pretend?
Ummmmm.....maybe its so they cant be held accountable.....maybe its just a lack of "Stones".....who can say for sure
Hank Irwin
28th April 2004, 22:44
Traveling a lot like I do, everywhere I go, I visit dojos of different styles including my own. You would not believe some of the garbage being accepted by the public. Most times I have a lot of fun, but I meet the occasional Kushi Bushi. That's usually when the fun begins actually Hahaha! I will be in San Fran next month for a couple of weeks. Will be visiting Chinese School of Southern Fukien fighting arts. Last month I visitied Coffman Sensei at his home in Fla., will post a small account of my visit and a few photos. Hoped to do it sooner but have been slammed lately. Will try to have it up by weekend. heiwa
Gene Williams
28th April 2004, 22:53
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
Hey Gene Sensei! I got some time next week, coming by ok?:D
Great! Call me with day and time.
Rob Alvelais
28th April 2004, 23:23
Hank,
You're going to be in my neck of the woods. What's this school you're visiting?
Rob
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
Traveling a lot like I do, everywhere I go, I visit dojos of different styles including my own. You would not believe some of the garbage being accepted by the public. Most times I have a lot of fun, but I meet the occasional Kushi Bushi. That's usually when the fun begins actually Hahaha! I will be in San Fran next month for a couple of weeks. Will be visiting Chinese School of Southern Fukien fighting arts. Last month I visitied Coffman Sensei at his home in Fla., will post a small account of my visit and a few photos. Hoped to do it sooner but have been slammed lately. Will try to have it up by weekend. heiwa
Hank Irwin
29th April 2004, 00:59
Robsan, I will let you know when I drop down by way of this board ok? We should get together. I haven't actually confirmed Sifu will be there when I get there as of yet. I still have to confirm my eta and itenerary also. Sometime around the end of first week in May, right around the corner.:D
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