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Charlie Kondek
18th May 2004, 17:24
Here is a thread to answer questions and have dialogue on kendo. Hyaku offered to contribute, and many other e-budoka can as well. I will, and I'm sure DC Pan, Gendzwil, Melancon, and others will assist.

Fire away!

Caio
18th May 2004, 17:37
Greetings,

I'm a kendo practitioner myself, but I won't be so bold as to help you people... so here goes my Q:

What is the difference between an "Ippon" and a "Yuuko Datotsu"?!
Just a bit of information, both these questions are asked in the written exam required for shodan and up here in Brasil. The answer they provide is, though, equal to both, the reason of my doubt.
By the way (#1) the person responsible for that IS my sensei, so no use asking him again. By the way (#2) didn't had the opportunity to ask my OTHER sensei about this (just too many other issues on the line :) ).

Thanks.
Your's,

Aozora
18th May 2004, 17:45
What does everyone think about the move by some factions of the kendo/kumdo groups & practitioners to move to electronic bogu and scoring system ala Olympic fencing?

We had a visiting kumdo practitioner recently who was all fired up about doing it.

IMNSHO, I hate it. I hate everything about it and resent those whose are trying to move towards it. There is something organic about having live people judge the scoring. Like my kendo sensei says, it's just as much art as it is martial, and only a living breathing person can judge zanshin, which in my mind is the essence of kendo. If you want all of that electronic stuff, do foil fencing and leave kendo the hell alone. You need to devote all the energy to "fixing" things to your waza, and if this student visiting was an example of that movement, there was PLENTY about his technique for

I also think this is about a bigger issue, which is trying to Westernize something that doesn't need it. I don't have it alla rticulated out in my head, but basically, although kendo does have sporting aspects to it, it still is enough of a martial art that to further 'sportify' it would lose the spirit of it. No martial art I've seen has been made better by making it profit driven, sporty, Olympic or electronic. I realize that makes me sound like something of a Luddite, but this is fundamentally not something that needs constant "upgrade" on a wide scale. New technology is great for NASA and for medicine... not kendo.

What does everyone else think?

mareo
18th May 2004, 17:54
They should just leave kendo the way it is. Kendo will surely lose it's spirit by making it more sporty.

G. Zepeda
18th May 2004, 18:24
How do you guys turn around after a run-through Do-uchi?
Do you a) Turn towards the side of the cut, and thrust
the shinai straight out into Chudan?

b) Pull the shinai all the way forward whilst still facing
away from the opponent and come down from the top into
Chudan?

c) Any other input would be appreciated.

If I am not clear in my descriptions, please let me know, I am quite unfamiliar with many terms!

Charlie Kondek
18th May 2004, 18:33
Mareo, I'm not sure I understand your question.

Yuko-datotsu means a valid strike. You ask what is the difference between yuko-datotsu and ippon, I would suggest the difference is ippon only occurs in shiai (competition) and yuko-datotsu is something you should strive to achieve with all your attacks, in jigeiko (sparring), in everything. Yuko-datotsu means the shinai is pointed in the right direction and you are striking with the correct hasuji (angle of the blade) so that, if it were a real sword, you would cut with the edge, not hit with the flat of the blade. Yuko-datotsu also means employing ki-ken-tai-ichi, spirit-sword-body-as-one.

As far as the electronic fencing thing goes, I am vehemently opposed to it. Passionately so. It is degrading and unnecessary.

As we know, a competition is judged by three people. Between the three of them, they can determine what the points are. That's number one. Number two is that no electronic equipment in the world can measure what's discussed above, yuko-datotsu. No electronic equipment in the world will every tell zanshin.

CEB
18th May 2004, 18:48
Originally posted by Aozora
What does everyone think about the move by some factions of the kendo/kumdo groups & practitioners to move to electronic bogu and scoring system ala Olympic fencing?

We had a visiting kumdo practitioner recently who was all fired up about doing it.

...New technology is great for NASA and for medicine... not kendo.

What does everyone else think?

Electronic scoring is absolutely useless in Kendo. Whether a touch was made is practically irrelevant. The more difficult questions involve whether or not the critieria for yuko-datotsu were achieved by the kenshi. For that you need a thinking human judge. A box can't do that.

Technology isn't necessarily bad. It is gradually creeping into the game. Alternative materials for shinai is one area. Though this isn't good in my opinion. Bamboo hurts bad enough why the heck we let ourselves get spanked by carbon fiber I don't know. :laugh: BTW, I love carbon fiber forks on road bikes. It makes aluminum rideable.

Also, we have a lot more modern doo-dads these days for Bogu. IMO it wouldn't break my heart if we could eliminate himo in lieu of some sort of modern fastening systems. My himo always seem to come untied at the worst time. :)

CEB
18th May 2004, 18:52
So can be yuko-datotsu be achieved to a non-valid scoring area?

Rough Rider
18th May 2004, 18:57
Aozora asked about electric kumdo (kendo:

As a foilsman of some duration - I think it's terrible. Electrification of the weapon has ruined fencing. I see no reason to ruin kendo.

If you want more imput on what electrification has done to fencing ask Maestro Nick Evangalista (www.fencersquarterly.com). He can fill your head with more than enough information.

Charlie Kondek
18th May 2004, 19:35
Well said, Doc.


So can be yuko-datotsu be achieved to a non-valid scoring area?

Well, I'm tempted to say theoretically, yes. If you cut with ki-ken-tai-ichi and proper hasuji to me, say, buttocks (it happens sometimes going for doh) then I suppose it is yuko-datotsu, but not ippon!


Gil:

You asked about doh. Good question. Doh is, for me, the hardest cut. Getting it is very difficult. If it were an actual fight it might be easier, since you could just slash away without worrying about slashing your opponent across the elbows, chest, groin. But since you want to make a good clean kesa-giri-type cut through the doh, it's harder.

Anywho, my opinion is that you would do A, and certainly this is how I do it. But try B in practice, the bigger, the more controlled, the better. Big doh, big follow-through, big turn-around.

It has been my experience with all the waza that if you practice them big and powerful they get smaller and faster on their own. If you practice them small and fast they get too small. Which is not to say you shouldn't practice sashi-type cuts (sashi-men, sashi-kote), just to emphasize that you should cut big in practice. My thoughts, hope you get some others.

gendzwil
18th May 2004, 19:56
Originally posted by Caio

What is the difference between an "Ippon" and a "Yuuko Datotsu"?!

With all due respect to Charlie's philosophical ramblings on the matter, there is no difference. Yuko datotsu means valid point, as defined in the rules for kendo, found in somewhat outdated form (but still valid for this purpose) here (http://www.rain.org/~galvan/rules.txt).

Now if you want to argue that all points awarded are not yuko datotsu, fair enough - but that gets into the realm of judging errors, not terminology.


Originally posted by CEB

So can be yuko-datotsu be achieved to a non-valid scoring area?

No.

gendzwil
18th May 2004, 20:01
I think if we want to keep this discussion a productive Q&A session, the whole Olympics question should be avoided. It's been beaten to death elsewhere, and will take over the whole thread if we allow it. For the record, I'm against it and I'm with the overwhelming majority of kendoka.

G. Zepeda
18th May 2004, 20:01
I don't know if I had an "old school" sensei or not. For the first year or so, the shinai had to go ALL the way back, and hit you in the booty before the swing started...this helped me pick up a good habit and a bad habit. Good: all of my attacks start and come down from centerline, and the singular cut is executed right when my left hand is over the crown of my head. As I like to put it: The Do will not be telegraphed! The bad habit I picked up is going all the way back all the time, even during sparring. It gets me bashed all the time, and sensei has told me that I have progressed enough to only go back 45 degrees. Must I retrain my muscles to only go back the proper distance? Sensei said the only swing I should practice on my own is Men(footwork, conditioning, and zanshin play heavy into what sensei directs for solo practice). What is your take on this piece of advice?

gendzwil
18th May 2004, 20:03
Originally posted by G. Zepeda
How do you guys turn around after a run-through Do-uchi?
You should complete the cut by drawing through the body if going to the right, or leaving it straight out if going to the left. Either way you should end up in a sort of extended chudan as you clear away from the opponent, and then just turn around normally.

For the first year or so, the shinai had to go ALL the way back, and hit you in the booty before the swing started...
That drill is meant to teach you to swing fully, and also to be used as a warmup. I would never expect anyone to swing that big in jigeiko, even beginners. Personally I don't much like that drill because it encourages people to straighten their left elbow at the top of the swing in order to hit their butt.

To fix your swing, concentrate in suburi on stopping the backswing with the shinai pointed straight back or higher. This happens when both your hands are at the same level at the top of the swing. Note that your left hand should still be above your head, and both elbows should be bent equally and naturally. If you have access to a mirror, use it to get good feedback on the top position.

G. Zepeda
18th May 2004, 20:10
gendz:

That is normally how I perform (or try) the end of the do cut. I first learned a different way to do it and was told later the execution you are talking about. Originally, the follow through was made, and a turn around a la Men was performed. It was changed on me in the middle of class when sensei said that I "got the footwork for this down". Is it normal to have to pull the blade back towards your koshi, raise up an inch or so, and lower back into Chudan to score a point? I can hit do all day against even the nidan from Korea, but without the end part, I never, and I mean never, score a proper point. And my opponent never gives me the oppurtunity to finish up correctly;) ...

gendzwil
18th May 2004, 20:18
Gil, I must confess I don't understand why they would be so picky about that bit. Normally when you turn around you lift the kensen a little bit, this is just to make the turn a little easier and to guard your kote and men as you come around. But to me so long as you were alert and ready and in a decent position for the turn, I'd award the point.

I will say that doh is a difficult point to score and is usually not given for three reasons:

1. Hasuji is wrong - if you are slapping doh with the side of the blade, it's no point.
2. Zanshin is wrong - sloppy, out of balance zanshin is quite common with doh.
3. Striking with no opportunity - people often throw a doh in hoping to connect someway, somehow - the judges are looking to see if you took advantage of an opening or created an opening to get the doh.

DCPan
19th May 2004, 06:28
Originally posted by Caio

What is the difference between an "Ippon" and a "Yuuko Datotsu"?!


Well, literally translation of Yuko Datotsu is "Valid Strike". By that, it means the strike is done with the correct part of the shinai, or the "datotsu-bu" which is 1/3 the length of the blade with correct hasuji.

Now, a valid ippon consists of several elements, namely "riai(logic)", "yoko-datotsu" with ki-ken-tai-ichi, and zanshin.

So, while an ippon MUST have yuko-datotsu, yuko-datotsu is not necessarily an ippon, because there may not have been proper riai in the strike, or proper zanshin.

:D

gendzwil
19th May 2004, 15:35
From the rules:
Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
(spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
(mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
positive follow through of attack and strike),
Riai (correct reasoning behind the attack, which I discussed wrt doh) is the only missing part from David's list and is in fact not mentioned anywhere in the English version of the rules. It's a sort of unwritten rule. But we're talking about shiai here, and the rules for shiai define a point as yuko-datotsu. Seems to me the question isn't what is the difference, it is more what other things go into making a yuko-datotsu/point that aren't written down or commonly thought of. Perhaps that was the intent of the original exam question.

chrismoses
19th May 2004, 16:02
So at our parent dojo in Japan, many of the old-timers study Kendo in addition to Shinto-ryu. Last time we were there, one was particularly adamant that Kendo and Iai were parts of a whole as opposed to distinct arts. I have never done Kendo, and admit it's scoring system to be entirely beyond my ability to understand.

My question: Do you study both, and do you hold that these arts are indeed parts of a whole? I suppose my reason for asking is that I have seen a number of relatively advanced Iai practitioners who also do Kendo, and it has always looked like two totally different arts to me. In Kendo you see robust physicality and percussive tight impacts, then the very same practitioner, when doing Iai, makes large slow sweeping cuts with a quiet body and (seeminly) little agression. From the outside, I cannot help but see the myriad of differences. Responses?

CEB
19th May 2004, 16:08
Originally posted by CEB
Just because a certain technique is not practiced in Shinai Kendo does that necessarily mean it is not part of Kendo ?

Ed Boyd


Here is a question for the Kenshi. It got overlooked in another thread. This was something I asked on the "no kesa geri in Kendo" thread that just sort of died. Maybe it is that our particular dojo was different in its practice of kendo. ( Maybe I should say former dojo, I'm not practicing Kendo right now, I'm training for triathlon and I swim on Sundays which used to be Kendo day for me :( ) But we would practice seitei iai from 3:00 to 4:00 then Shinai Kendo class would start at 4:00 and go to around 5:30. Then we would practice kata till 6:00 or 6:30. We did all 3 ( Iai, Shinai keiko, and kata) every class. So the question of no kesa giri in Kendo seemed wrong to me. I mean kesa geri is the showcase technique in Seitei Gohanme. I see nihon kendo kata and Iai as part of the total kendo. I am alone in thinking this? Or is kendo only what you do with a shinai?

I can see how people would think something is excluded from kendo when a certain technique is not used in shinai Kendo. But, to me Kendo is much bigger than some people give it credit for. IMO, and I may be very well be wrong, but the reason i think techniques were probably taken away from shinai practice was to make kendo more challenging and help build stronger Kenshi. To me the most difficult thing one can do is to fight from chudan no kamae and defeat your opponents chudan no kamae. This we call honest kendo. No trickery or creative strategy, just honest hard work and honest hard attitude. I hope this makes sense.

CEB
19th May 2004, 16:17
Sorry for stepping on Chris Moses' post we were kind of thinking the same sort of thing at the same time. I didn't see your post when I wrote mine.

Charlie Kondek
19th May 2004, 16:41
"Do you study both, and do you hold that these arts are indeed parts of a whole?"

Yes.

Note that paired kata are also part of kendo, one that frequently doesn't get enough attention, but an integral one; you cannot pass your dan ranks without them! The shinai kendo, plus kata, plus iai, are considered adding up to the whole of kendo. I think this is the approach some people arrive at personally, but I also think that the official governing body of kendo has made this a policy.

This Furyu article says that seitai gata, the standardized set, was developed by the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei for the purpose of introducing kendo-ka to iai. The article also said it was developed to allow standardized grading for iai.

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/seite.html

I did a little searching to see if I could find a statement or charter on the ZNKR's views toward iai. I know students are encouraged (not required) to practice seitei, and it is hoped the seitei will serve to push the kendo-ka into a deeper study with one of the iai branches (or whatever's available).

But maybe I'm stating the obvious? What you really want to know is, how compatible are they? How are they reconciled in the mind of the practitioner?

Let me meditate on it and get back to you, and get out of the way so that other more knowledgable people can comment. My immediate answer is I still have so much to learn. Doing iai reminds me of the shortcomings of my kendo and leaves me with a lot of questions but deifinite impressions of how the two might coalesce in a real encounter (that I'll never have). For that alone, it is invaluable.

G. Zepeda
19th May 2004, 16:54
I studied Kendo first, then on to Batto. The techniques and lessons I learned in Kendo surely help me on a day to day basis with my studies of Batto.

chrismoses
19th May 2004, 17:08
No worries CEB, it was interesting that both posts happened at nearly the same time.

Charlie, I can see how theoretically Iai informs Kendo and Kendo informs Iai, but what I have seen in practice (and I fully admit that I have seen a very limited subset of the people doing this) is what looks to be totally different swing, posture, and footwork mechanics. I know in my own study, there is a tendency to treat tameshigiri as its own thing, separate and isolated from the kata I study. Only when my kata is such that I would be going through makiwara, and my tameshigiri is using the same techniques/cuts that I would in my kata do the two relate in any way other than both using a sword. So do kendoka struggle with the same dichotomy? Are the arts related in theory or in practice?

CEB, what are techniques but codified trickery?

DCPan
19th May 2004, 17:21
Originally posted by chrismoses
CEB, what are techniques but codified trickery?

If technique is codified trickery, how is it that senior practitioners can tell you exactly what is going to happen to you, and proceed to make it happen? :D

chrismoses
19th May 2004, 17:34
Originally posted by DCPan
If technique is codified trickery, how is it that senior practitioners can tell you exactly what is going to happen to you, and proceed to make it happen? :D

Easy, by trickery!

hyaku
19th May 2004, 18:00
Well Zen Ken Ren seem to be keen that everyone does something as well as Kendo to reach a better understanding. They really pushed it here by going out and buying Iaito for all the Kendo teachers. To be frank they don't have the time and never will.

Perhaps as yet perhaps no one is too happy with the compatibility. First it was Seitei. Now its Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon-waza Keiko-ho.

I can't help thinking of the old adage "If you want to learn something new learn some thing old"

CEB
19th May 2004, 18:21
Originally posted by chrismoses
...

CEB, what are techniques but codified trickery?

Not sure if I understand, but if you asking what are some examples of what I consider trickery one example from my old playbook would be to lower the kensen and create an opening in my defense to draw in an attack which I would 'in theory' be prepared to counter. To me this isn't 'honest' kendo but more in the realm of gamesmanship. Well even if this isn't true this sort of tactic isn't in line with how Sensei taught us Kendo. I think some if not most of this comes from a weakness I have for not wanting to lose and in the end I cut myself short I think. This kind of thing may work well against some of my peers, but against Sensei nothing works. At least if I maintain proper pressure with a good chudan no kamae my kensen had a better chance of touching him and nullifying the ippon as he procedes to attack with full vigor in response to me not being aggressive and attacking him first. Never let Sensei get too bored in Jigeiko. :)

Aozora
19th May 2004, 20:53
I study both MJER iai and kendo. I love and enjoy both, both add to each other and I can easily see both being two sides of the same whole.

OTOH, I don't think you have to study both in order to "get" budo. It's long been my opinion to be a "real swordsman" you're going to have to kill real people with real swords. Anything else is just self-cultivation and thus, whether it's koryu iai or gendai kendo, you're likely to get to the same state of being with just one or the other or both after long years of practice.

DCPan
19th May 2004, 21:46
Originally posted by chrismoses
Easy, by trickery!

Ippon! :D

Seriously though :D

In my mind, a trick is a trick, if the opponent doesn't fall for it, that's it. Moreover, a trick should only work "once", if your opponent is worth his salt. Then again, it only has to work "once" if you are really using it huh?

That being said, I prefer to think of waza as "limiting the opponent's viable choices" and ultimately pushing your opponent into a "lose-lose" situation where regardless of his response, he's toast :D


Originally posted by CEB
Not sure if I understand, but if you asking what are some examples of what I consider trickery one example from my old playbook would be to lower the kensen and create an opening in my defense to draw in an attack which I would 'in theory' be prepared to counter. To me this isn't 'honest' kendo but more in the realm of gamesmanship.

If you just stand there and leave your kamae open to play mind games with the other person, that's one thing.

However, if you limit your kamae so that only your men is open, then step-in to force the opponent to make a choice, being ready for the possible responses (i.e. opponent takes the men opening, opponent backs up, opponent freeze up), then I think that's a step above trickery.

Trickery only works if your opponent falls for it. Technique will work regardless of whether your opponent falls for it or not.

chrismoses
19th May 2004, 22:10
Originally posted by DCPan
In my mind, a trick is a trick, if the opponent doesn't fall for it, that's it. Moreover, a trick should only work "once", if your opponent is worth his salt. Then again, it only has to work "once" if you are really using it huh?

That being said, I prefer to think of waza as "limiting the opponent's viable choices" and ultimately pushing your opponent into a "lose-lose" situation where regardless of his response, he's toast :D

That pretty much fits my definition of a trick. An example of what I'm talking about: last year at the Eastside matsuri, your group had a guy who had stellar tip control. I remember the nearly digital up-down-up-down-up-down of his shinai as he set the tempo for the match. Was it technique? You betcha. Was it a trick? You betcha. He set a visual tempo that acted as a distraction and then acted on it to get a point. An Aiki example: if you've ever been 'thrown' by Don Angier's visual wall building, do you call that a trick or a technique? It works even when he tells you what he's going to do. Will it work 20 times in a row? Probably not, but neither will the perfect men cut, eventually you will see it coming and do something to keep it from working.


If you just stand there and leave your kamae open to play mind games with the other person, that's one thing.

However, if you limit your kamae so that only your men is open, then step-in to force the opponent to make a choice, being ready for the possible responses (i.e. opponent takes the men opening, opponent backs up, opponent freeze up), then I think that's a step above trickery.

Trickery only works if your opponent falls for it. Technique will work regardless of whether your opponent falls for it or not.

The first example there sounds kind of like mugamae of KSR, would that be a technique or a trick?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have a hard time finding the line. Squeezing with the pinky to have a strong grip, technique or trick? Having your weight forward so you can move faster, technique or trick? Pushing into your opponent's space so that they're threatened, but can't reach you, technique or trick? Strong kiai so that your abdominal muscles are integrated into your attack, technique or trick? See what I'm getting at? Like I said though, I find the rules for kendo unfathomable, so it's probably something I'm just not going to get. I'm OK with that. :)

gendzwil
19th May 2004, 22:44
Originally posted by DCPan

Trickery only works if your opponent falls for it. Technique will work regardless of whether your opponent falls for it or not.
I don't buy that definition. The very definition of anti-trickery in kendo is a straight men. If your opponent doesn't fall for it, you can lose kote or doh.

To me, trickery is anything that takes you far out of your normal kamae and puts you at serious risk. Katsugi-men, for example. Other examples might be the gedan trap (tm), the windshield-wiper fake-out, the stutter-stomp men feint, the tip-bounce off the floor into men. But as has been pointed out, it's a grey area. Any action you take is a potential opportunity for your opponent.

AlexM
19th May 2004, 23:26
Originally posted by DCPan

If you just stand there and leave your kamae open to play mind games with the other person, that's one thing.

However, if you limit your kamae so that only your men is open, then step-in to force the opponent to make a choice, being ready for the possible responses (i.e. opponent takes the men opening, opponent backs up, opponent freeze up), then I think that's a step above trickery.


I just wanted to comment on something.

David gives an excellent example in the first paragraphe I quoted of something that isn't kendo: namely breaking your own kamae and "waiting" (it's not "trickery" because it's not kendo in the 1st place). If you're going to make an opening it has to be dynamic and active, not with "dead feet" and without spirit.

I think the difference here is in how the opening is created: either it's done as part of a dynamic exchange between the two kenshi or it's just one kenshi "removing" himself from the exchange by essentially trying to sucker the opponent in (and not very well mind you).

This is the kind of behaviour you apparently don't see in Japan because there are people there able to smack you around for doing something as foolish as purposely breaking your own kamae and planting your feet. However, where I live (and I'm assuming in other places far removed from kendo "centers") there are people that use this kind of "tactic" and can get away with it (give me a few years and they'll regret it :D ).

DCPan
19th May 2004, 23:29
Originally posted by gendzwil
I don't buy that definition. The very definition of anti-trickery in kendo is a straight men. If your opponent doesn't fall for it, you can lose kote or doh.

Gees, this is kind of like defining what is a sport and what is a martial art huh?

IMHO, while my statement is poorly contextualized, your example of "why" it doesn't work really don't fly either.

Rarely is technique perfectly executed, so a straight men can fail simply because it wasn't 100% or simply your opponent is even stronger...that has no bearing on the technique vs. trick distinction.

My emphasis on the distinction of technique and trick is that in my mind, a technique set up your relationship in such a way that the myraid of the responses which your opponent can have are to your advantage. In my mind, trick is more all or nothing, and almost useless if your opponent know what the trick is. So, a technique is repeatable while tricks usually aren't.

:D

gendzwil
19th May 2004, 23:56
Originally posted by AlexM

This is the kind of behaviour you apparently don't see in Japan because there are people there able to smack you around for doing something as foolish as purposely breaking your own kamae and planting your feet.
Well you'll see any number of high school kids or even college age ones jerk their shinai all over the place in an effort to get you to move and then rely on their speed to get to the point. I don't think Japan is entirely bereft of wonky kendo.

AlexM
20th May 2004, 03:06
Originally posted by gendzwil
Well you'll see any number of high school kids or even college age ones jerk their shinai all over the place in an effort to get you to move and then rely on their speed to get to the point. I don't think Japan is entirely bereft of wonky kendo.

Ah Neil... always looking down on those lovely high-schoolers and college kids. :D You underestimate them.

They do wonky stuff, yes. But it's wonky kendo, as opposed to wonky non-kendo/chambara that I've seen. Despite the "wonkyness" they all usually possess a certain amount of fundamentals that make what they do kendo, as opposed to the crap I've seen here.

And besides... wonkyness can be beautifull too. ;)

hyaku
20th May 2004, 04:03
I would not give my wonky kids an inch. Those on the team are far from wonky.

Seem to remember taking one to Ninriki Dojo in London and watch him go through whole dojo "twice" in Kachinuki.

AlexM
20th May 2004, 04:22
I should have mentionned that I think that HS and College kendoka in Japan are far less "wonky" than Neil gives them credit for (I had omitted that from my post).

Even when they're not "straight", they're straight... hard to explain really. Even when they have "bad" posture, they have good posture.

Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the merits of High school and college kendoka in Japan.

hyaku
20th May 2004, 04:42
Originally posted by AlexM
Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the merits of High school and college kendoka in Japan.

Me neither. But anyone is welcome to come to my dojo and find out.:D

Charlie Kondek
20th May 2004, 14:11
Question:

For those that study kendo and iai, or kendo and kenjutsu: can you do everything that you do in kendo with shinken/iaito?

What can you do and what can't you do? And does that mean that if you can do it with shinai but not shinken, it's not valid?

gendzwil
20th May 2004, 15:40
Originally posted by AlexM
I should have mentionned that I think that HS and College kendoka in Japan are far less "wonky" than Neil gives them credit for (I had omitted that from my post).

Even when they're not "straight", they're straight... hard to explain really. Even when they have "bad" posture, they have good posture.

Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about the merits of High school and college kendoka in Japan.
I understand what you mean - bent-over sideways as they tag a kote, they can still look better than a lot of people here. And I'm sure the top kids there would take care of me in shiai. I was responding to Alex saying wrt trickery that "this is the kind of behaviour you apparently don't see in Japan". Based on my experience with the visitors we get here from time to time, you see some stuff that isn't perfection. Not everyone belongs to the team, ya know.

Caio
20th May 2004, 19:49
Greetings,


Originally posted by hyaku

Perhaps as yet perhaps no one is too happy with the compatibility. First it was Seitei. Now its Bokuto Ni Yoru Kendo Kihon-waza Keiko-ho.


Hyakutake sensei, could you please explain what is that "Bokuto Ni..." ?! It interested me...

As for another question, it seems that many people here consider Iaido an integral and inseparable part of Kendo training. I allways thought that ZNKR considered Iaido as a complementary part of the study of the Katana, and would only "recomend" it to Kenshi who are godan and up. What is the "correct" or maybe the most common view on this issue, specially in Japan?!

Your's,

ulvulv
20th May 2004, 20:59
Do a search on "Bokuto Ni Yoru" on this forum, and you will find a couple of threads which mentions it, and you will find a link to descriptions of these excercises.

Caio
20th May 2004, 21:20
Greetings,

Thank you Mr. Ulvestad. I forgot to do that. Sorry to bother you people...

Your's,

CEB
21st May 2004, 14:28
Has anybody on the forum experienced Itto Ryu. My question is whether Itto ryu uses any body/hips? The thing that always struck me as really different with Kendo is the absense of body and hips usage, But then again I'm an old Karate guy. ( fyi, gamaku is a term we use in karate but this may not even be Japanese, hard to tell sometimes when a word is Japanese proper and what is a hogan term sometime ).

Charlie Kondek
21st May 2004, 14:42
Actually, I'm finding that the more kendo I do, the lower it gets. Been working on keeping the power of my cuts in the legs, hips and body rather than arms and chest. Ask Hyaku about kahanshin. It means, as I understand it, lower body strength, and it's something Hyaku feels is underdeveloped in the western model. I have been working closely with a Japanese sempai these past couple years and he has been showing me this, too.

CEB
21st May 2004, 14:48
I realize that, I think. Lowering your center is something Tatsumi Sensei really stressed, especially in Tai Atari. If not you wound up on your can. I guess what I'm curious about is if Itto Ryu has any rotation in it. Thank Charlie for the excellent reply. I got to go now I'm going with my daughter's 1st grade clas on a zoo trip.

Gambatte Kudasai

G. Zepeda
21st May 2004, 16:54
I had to do Koshi exercises till I dropped more than once. Then there's the waddling across the dojo floor and back in kamae...ouch, I hurt just thinking about all that lactic acid!

Kaoru
6th July 2004, 18:29
Bump!

Carlton
10th July 2004, 18:27
Does anybody here own expensive hand-made bogu from Japan? My question is... is it worth the investment? Will the cheaper bogu do, or do we recommend upgrades? What is the difference? If better? How?

hyaku
10th July 2004, 23:03
They all look similar in the photo but the main difference is in the stitching. If you practice regularly you might want to go for a one or one point five men and a good pair of kote. Hand stitched stretches into shape better than machine.

But there are different weights too. I have a regular men that is like armour plating and a thin lightweight for shia.

As to Do: Obviously bamboo last longer than fibre. But its the mune part above the shell and the way its stitched together that stands the test of time.

One thing more you might consider is which side of the dojo are you? If like me you have to receive hard kakari geiko from around thirty people you need good protection!

Do you practice every day? If not I think you might be overspending on hand stitched.

Ken-Hawaii
12th July 2004, 23:03
Aloha!

Speaking as the senior Fencing Master for Hawaii, & with 52 years of experience, I can tell you that using electronic weapons has definitely damaged the sport of fencing -- perhaps fatally.

I am probably most disgusted that foil & epee fencers can "whip" their blades around & get "valid" touches on their opponent's back! Of course, in a real battle, they wouldn't last more than a few seconds, but that doesn't seem to bother the fools at the international fencing federation.

As far as kendo, if any of you have watched a slow-motion video of a solid men or do, you won't be surprised when I mention that there is almost as much "whippiness" with a shinai as there is with a foil.

I certainly hope that kendo will not go the same way.

Ken Goldstein

gendzwil
12th July 2004, 23:34
Originally posted by Ken-Hawaii

As far as kendo, if any of you have watched a slow-motion video of a solid men or do, you won't be surprised when I mention that there is almost as much "whippiness" with a shinai as there is with a foil.


There's no "whip" to a shinai. It's doesn't bend in any detectable way from merely swinging it, like a foil will. The bend you see is the result of the shinai bending around the target on contact - an entirely different beast.

Having said that, I agree completely - no electronic scoring.

Ken-Hawaii
12th July 2004, 23:43
Aloha, Neil:

Sorry that I didn't make myself clearer. I agree completely that just swinging a shinai will not "whip" it, unlike a foil.

Scoring in fencing is done when the foil or epee hits the opponent, & that is also where much of the whipping action occurs. Olympic-caliber fencers can certainly whip the foil tip around to touche on the back, while the rest of us must first contact the opponent, usually on the arm or shoulder to get the touche on the back.

At least there are no valid attack areas on the back in kendo!

Ken Goldstein

DCPan
13th July 2004, 03:23
Originally posted by gendzwil
There's no "whip" to a shinai. It's doesn't bend in any detectable way from merely swinging it, like a foil will.

Check out this gyaku-doh!

DCPan
13th July 2004, 03:26
Here's a repeat attempt!

Ken-Hawaii
13th July 2004, 03:38
Consider me astonished & highly impressed!!!

I would have bet against that much deflection in even a broken shinai!!

Ken

gendzwil
13th July 2004, 06:10
I'm unconvinced. I'd like to see a picture where they used a fast enough shutter to actually stop the motion.

Charlie Kondek
13th July 2004, 14:00
Yes, it's a trick of the camera, I think. Either that or he's using a very big banana to attack him.

:p

Welcome, Ken! Say, were you always in Hawaii, because the fencing teacher at my high school in Michigan was a Dr. Goldstein or -stien.

G. Zepeda
13th July 2004, 14:30
Does the gyaku-doh, go over the shoulder like that?
I was taught never go over the shoulder, as it leaves the other side completely open.

D'Artagnan
13th July 2004, 16:54
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Yes, it's a trick of the camera, I think. Either that or he's using a very big banana to attack him.


Well, i agree that this cannot show the true deflection of the shinai 100% without a very fast shutter speed. However, from the the kind of blur seen in this shot, the curvature of the shinai is depicted suprisingly accurately. If this were a 'trick' due to a slow shutter speed, the blur would be somewhat different.

DCPan
13th July 2004, 18:42
Originally posted by D'Artagnan
If this were a 'trick' due to a slow shutter speed, the blur would be somewhat different.

Well,

I use "dummy" cameras that auto-focus and all that...so, there's no trick involved on my part! :D

And no, that guy isn't me, so there's no vested interest in bragging rights either! :D

FWIW

Ken-Hawaii
13th July 2004, 19:08
Well, yes, I'm a "doctor" Goldstein, & yes, I'm an adjunct professor, but nope, never taught fencing up in Michigan. I think I competed there in epee a few times, though.

Ken

Carlton
14th July 2004, 15:38
Originally posted by gendzwil
There's no "whip" to a shinai. It's doesn't bend in any detectable way from merely swinging it, like a foil will. The bend you see is the result of the shinai bending around the target on contact - an entirely different beast.

Having said that, I agree completely - no electronic scoring.
I agree too