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E.elemental
5th July 2004, 16:40
In another thread which deals with the Kama the "weaponsconnection" and Mr Carbone is mentioned. Since I have a few questions concerning just that company I decided to start a new thread. First of all I could say that I am looking for high-quality Kobudo-weaponry. And Mr Carbones reputation is from what I have heard really good. I am thinking of ordering his Tuifa and a pair of Sai (havent decided which yet).

I wonder if someone could post (any) more pictures of especially the Sai other then them existing on his web-site? The Sai looks and sounds extremly interesting.


Comments anyone? :)


http://www.weaponsconnection.com/page1.htm

TimothyScott
5th July 2004, 19:36
It's a good thing I have today off -- you are in luck:

http://karate.dhs.org/gallery/sai.htm

These are the heat treated, stainless steel "deluxe" sai he's got on his web site. I've got a friend that has his stainless steel "standard" sai. I'll see if I can borrow those and take some shots.

E.elemental
6th July 2004, 22:03
Thanks, the photos proved usefull. :)

Do you know the difference between the deluxe Sai and standard Sai you mentioned. Since some say that they are a bit heavy, does this affect the use when changing from gyakute-mochi to honte-mochi? Is this change of grip done easily?

TimothyScott
7th July 2004, 04:25
I'm not up on Japanese terminology so I don't know what you are referring to exactly. If you mean are they hard to flip and maneuver? Well, the weight certainly does slow things down! The sai themselves feel nice and solid when going against another weapon (like a 5ft staff.)

I don't know the exact weight difference between the standard and deluxe. I do know that the standard style are a heck of a lot easier to flip around.

My buddy said I could borrow his sai and take some photos. I was hoping to get them from him tonight but he wasn't able to make it to class.

E.elemental
7th July 2004, 10:28
Honte-mochi = Natural grip
Gyakute-Mochi = Reverse grip
Tokoshu-Mochi = Special grip

These words can be used with the other weapons also, Kama, Tonfa.. :)

And changing grip from Honte-mochi to Gyakute-Mochi is of course as you say to flip them.

A bit strange that the standard are easier to flip? They should be harder to handle while the deluxe is easier?

I have mailed mr Carbone, hopefully he will answer soon. But maybe he is up to much work now? I was wondering about measurement..

:cool:

TimothyScott
7th July 2004, 12:19
Originally posted by E.elemental

A bit strange that the standard are easier to flip? They should be harder to handle while the deluxe is easier?

I have mailed mr Carbone, hopefully he will answer soon. But maybe he is up to much work now? I was wondering about measurement..

:cool:

The deluxe are a bit more massive and take more strength to get moving and then stopping. This is over-exaggerating, but consider how a short wood stick (tanbo) will flip around in your hand. Now imagine it's made of lead. A bit more difficult to maneuver because it's more massive.

When you finally get a hold of Mr. Carbone, he will ask you a bunch of measurement questions. Each pair of sai he makes are custom fit.

Last I heard, Mr. Carbone was headed to Okinawa for a short while. It could be that he's still there. He's usually pretty good at getting back on e-mail inquiries.

On another note, why use Japanese terminology when plain old English will suffice? I guess that assumes that English is your native language. :)

TomMarker
7th July 2004, 13:53
I have heard that they are a great product, but the website uses more than its fair share of hyperbole. I read an article written by an Isshin Ryu gentleman who really lays into some of the claims made on his page.

If I was going to pay THAT much for a pair of sai (and I've been tempted to order from him before) I'd be more curious to know how they compare to Shureido-made sai.

Edited to add:
http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/aja/isshinkai/agenasai.shtml

E.elemental
7th July 2004, 21:38
Originally posted by TimothyScott

On another note, why use Japanese terminology when plain old English will suffice? I guess that assumes that English is your native language. :)

Yes it does, and since Swedish is my native language and we use Japanese terminology when training it was natural for me to use Japanese here. :o

By the way, now Mr. Carbone has replied, he answered all my guestions. Im almost convinced that I will order his Sai of Agena (Standard) in the near future. :)


Does anyone have experience of his Tuifa?

TimothyScott
7th July 2004, 22:27
Originally posted by TomMarker
I have heard that they are a great product, but the website uses more than its fair share of hyperbole. I read an article written by an Isshin Ryu gentleman who really lays into some of the claims made on his page.

If I was going to pay THAT much for a pair of sai (and I've been tempted to order from him before) I'd be more curious to know how they compare to Shureido-made sai.

Edited to add:
http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/aja/isshinkai/agenasai.shtml

Heh heh. Thanks for the link. I never did take his "energy" claims seriously and couldn't have cared less about the lineage of his weapon mastery. I bought the sai because they looked cool. What more reason do you need? :)

E.elemental
8th July 2004, 20:11
"The Standard has a 9/16" blade and the Deluxe has a 5/8" blade."

I asked Mr Carbone the difference between the standard and the deluxe Sai. I really didnt understand exactly what he meant with it. It has something to do with width? Could someone better in english perhaps explain? :o

TomMarker
10th July 2004, 02:50
Originally posted by TimothyScott
Heh heh. Thanks for the link. I never did take his "energy" claims seriously and couldn't have cared less about the lineage of his weapon mastery. I bought the sai because they looked cool. What more reason do you need? :)

Don't get me wrong... they are a BEAUTFIFUL pair of sai. If they are really made from tire irons and bolts, all the cooler. I'm just curious to how they compare to what I've always thought to be the "gold standard" in sai.

Gene Williams
10th July 2004, 02:58
You don't "flip" a sai. You strike with it. "Flipping" is a modern innovation for tournaments.

TimothyScott
10th July 2004, 03:34
Originally posted by Gene Williams
You don't "flip" a sai. You strike with it. "Flipping" is a modern innovation for tournaments.

I'm not sure what kind of point you are trying to make here. I wasn't talking about throwing it up into the air and having it spin if that is what you are implying. By flip I meant the general motion of changing the tip position of the sai from near your elbow (for example) and your thumb hooked into the tine, to out towards your opponent and your hand position grasping the handle.

With specific regards to your comment, you don't just "strike" with a sai, you grapple with it. Of course, this doesn't invalidate striking concepts, but there is certainly more to sai techniques than just striking. Any monkey off the street can view the kata and figure that stuff out (as my sensei always says.)

Gene Williams
10th July 2004, 03:45
It has become pretty common for people to use light sai and perform the hand changes as fast as they can. That is flipping. Original sai were iron and pretty hard to "flip." If the kata were done properly, the strikes would be emphasized more and the speed of the flip would not be important. Oh, and Tim, I've probably forgotten more sai kata than you know.

TimothyScott
10th July 2004, 04:18
I wouldn't doubt it, I only know one kata. Good to see you're humble about it though.

Gene Williams
10th July 2004, 04:21
Its got nothing to do with being humble...it has to do with responding to a smart !!! with a little reality.

E.elemental
11th July 2004, 20:30
In the weaponsconnection page it says:


"Use and misuse of Martial Arts weapons involve serious risks, including injury, disability, and death. Weapons are sold for training purposes only. The practitioner should be under the direct supervision of a qualified expert for demonstration of forms, collection, or display. Inspect weapons before each use to ensure they are in proper condition. Do not use weapons for sparring or contact. Strict caution should be observed."

Do not use wapons for sparring or contact... is this referring to the risk of injuring someone or myself or the capability of the weapon? Anybody that knows?

What I am thinking of is Kobujutsu pre-arrenged-Kumite for example. In this there is lot of contact between Bo/Tonfa, Bo/Sai etc.. Do you know if the weapons on this page is intended for that kind of use? I thought so, I just wanted to hear your opinion in the matter. I know that no weapen is indestructible and the use of the weapon must be in a way it was designed for, but should I be concerned with build of the ex Tonfa? Or could I just keep training.. and training.. Kumite?

:D

n2shotokai
14th July 2004, 06:04
Speaking of injury during use, was it in the 70's when the Bruce Lee flicks had everyone knocking themselves out with nunchaku. It seemed as though more gang bangers were swinging them in their front yards than kids doing the hoola hoop. WHACK ohhhhhh. Too funny.

E.elemental
20th July 2004, 23:53
Now I have ordered a pair of Sai and Tonfa. I hope I will like them and got the measurements right. :D


So in about 9 weeks I will have them, when I have made me an opinion on them I will get back here and report. ;)

Loukopoulos
26th September 2004, 21:04
I don't know what is a standard vs deluxe pair of sai. There is a difference between stainless steel sai and rough iron sai. Stainless steel has been adopted for demonstrations as the audience can appreciate the speed of the sai as depicted in the light. They are not very effective in 'catching' a bo, for example, while the rough iron because the surface is not slippery smoothe are best for bunkai. Besides, one's opponent should not see the weapon and if seen, should not be able to estimate length and size...

Shikiyanaka
29th September 2004, 11:59
The Kanji of Sai is put together from the rightside radical "iron" plus "fork" :) This is very appropriate :)

I tried to post the the Kanji but somehow it did not work.
çŢ‹ŕ?ł

E.elemental
12th October 2004, 17:30
Finally my Sai and Tonfa are here!!! :D

I was worried about the lengths of the weapon since measurements can be tricky when ordering like this. The Tonfa is a tiny bit to short, but the grip couldnt suite me better. And the length of the sai is PERFECT! As comparing to Shureido they are a bit heavier but not much and I suppose I will get used to it.

Overall I am very pleased!!! :)

harleyt26
12th October 2004, 23:08
Which sai did you get?9/16 or 5/8? what about handle wrapping? Shiny or natural finish? Tempered for throwing? What style of tonfa did you get? What wood are they made of?Which way are the handles tapered if at all?How did they measure you for them as far as hand size and arm legnth?I have purchased many Shureido and Crane Mountain weapons but have not yet tried Weapons connection.I may try a set of their sai someday when my finances are right but I am spoiled on Crane Mountain tonfa for sure,they are a tough act to follow. Tom Hodges

E.elemental
12th October 2004, 23:27
Originally posted by harleyt26
Which sai did you get?9/16 or 5/8? what about handle wrapping? Shiny or natural finish? Tempered for throwing? What style of tonfa did you get? What wood are they made of?Which way are the handles tapered if at all?How did they measure you for them as far as hand size and arm legnth?I have purchased many Shureido and Crane Mountain weapons but have not yet tried Weapons connection.I may try a set of their sai someday when my finances are right but I am spoiled on Crane Mountain tonfa for sure,they are a tough act to follow. Tom Hodges

I really dont know if it was 9/16 or 5/8. :o But it was his standard Hardened high carbon steel Sai of Agena. Natural finish. I bought the Hamahiga Tonfa (the cheapest). I think they are made out of Bubinga, but I am not really sure. On his site he has a description of how to measure. I didnt really trust that so I measured with my old sai ant tonfa and estimated the length I should have. And the Sai got perfect, I mean REALLY perfect! Tho Tonfa however I noticed was delivered shorter then I ordered and I have written to Mr Carbone about this. And the handle wrapping is optional, I didnt recieve any on mine. Tomorrow I will wrap them myself in black colour.

I will take some pictures some day soon. If you put aside the delivery-time which I found very long (because they are handmade) and the wrong length of Tonfa I am still very pleased. The weapons are the best I have found yet! However I have not tryed Crane Mountain. :)

Maddog Mitchell
13th October 2004, 02:19
Tom,

I second that about Crane Mountain. Pam is great and the quality and work is really outstanding.

regards,

Mike Mitchell

E.elemental
13th October 2004, 20:05
About my Tonfa that got a bit to short.. I have now spoken to Mr Carbone and has offered my a new pair. He seems like a most generous and kind man, not that I have ever met him. Since I am very pleased with my new Sai I have decided to order his Stainless heat treated Sai - Standard. :)

To be continued...

Robby Bray
15th October 2004, 02:59
I'm with Crane Mountain also. I've been ordering their stuff for about four years now and have not had a complaint about anything. Bo, Tonfa, Ekku, Nunchaku ... thumbs up to all.

Robby Bray

JS3
15th October 2004, 14:13
I have had good dealings with both Mr. Carbone and Crane Mountain.
I have to admit that I have come to replace my weapones with the ones from Murasaki Kobudo (http://www.murasakikobudo.com).

The focus tend to be on lighter and faster, and the people are also easy to work with.

Joe

Loukopoulos
15th October 2004, 19:22
Hi everyone,
I just viewed the website and I would like to make the following observation:
In the list of the weapons sold the oar is listed as 'AEKU'and I wondered if that was an American pronunciation. The Okinawan pronunciation is 'EIKU'. I also noticed that 'TONFA' was sold. In order to be consistent, if you are selling 'TONFA' then, you would like to say 'KAY' because 'TONFA' is the Japanese pronunciation and 'KAI' is also Japanene for oar. If, however, you would like to use the Okinawan pronunciation for 'TONFA' it is 'TUNFA' or 'TUIFA' or 'TUIFU' but most popularly used 'TUNFA'. In that case, you would way 'EIKU'. There is no 'AEKU' because the Japanese vowels are clearly pronounced and in the 14 years there I have not heard 'AEKU' pronounced by Okinawan practitioners.
By the way, Eiku is the weapon I most frequently demonstrated on Okinawa, so I can make this correction with a good amount of confidence. Okinawan teachers are very meticulous in details when it comes to Kata techniques and Kata names. I would have been corrected.
Mr. Bill Hayes is a dedicated practitioner. I had the good fortune to know him personally in the United States and on Okinawa. I'm taking this opportunity to send him my regards via this post...

Loukopoulos
15th October 2004, 19:26
Hi everyone,
I made a mistake also.
'KAI' is what I intended to type NOT 'KAY'.
I guess that is what happened to 'AEKU' instead of 'EIKU'

How many push-ups?

Robby Bray
17th October 2004, 14:09
Most likely. Remember, don't sweat the small stuff.

wsteigner
19th October 2004, 04:13
Hi Loukopoulos Sensei; Hayes Sensei would say 200
would be a good round # for pushup.
The Oar is a lot of fun to work with and i wish I had seen your Demo`s. Your Eiku is the 1st time
i have seen it written like that I have also seen
Kai,Ieku,Eku[most common i think] Ueko and in the
Shureido catalog Eaku. The Aeku is new also and
I think as you do just a case of being to quick
on the keyboard, some in Japan call it Sunakake-Bo.
But by any name it is a lot of fun.
thank you
bill steigner

Loukopoulos
19th October 2004, 04:59
I perceive a two-way problem:
The Japanese/Okinawans notoriously are shy with the English language. The American ear on the other hand, is not trained on 'hearing' correctly because learning languages is not strongly emphasized in the educational corriculum. Over and over again in magazine articles and even in books the phonetic spelling is wrong because the hearing is wrong. Japanese speak in distinctively clear vowels. The Americans approximate the sound because a letter can have sound variations. The end result is wrong pronunciation.

Spanish, Italian, Greek, Russian practitioners pronounce Japanese nicely because the vowels of their native tongues are clear and uncomprimising just like the Japanese language. In Europe, I found, especially the Germans, are very keen in learning precise pronounciation.

Anyway, I strongly believe that if we are in a teaching position it is our fundamental obligation to get the sound of the word correctly. It matters just like the exact hairline of a technique matters, and just like a split second timing matters in kumite.

Call me a relic!

Robby Bray
20th October 2004, 02:22
I agree with you about the American problem with the vowels being pronounced incorrectly. There's another problem here too though. Everyone likes to lump the Okinawans/Japanese together, but when you talk old Kobudo and Karate they cannot be lumped together. This was a generation that had a serious language problem. Hogan is not Japanese, and many of the words are different anyway because it was how the Japanese tried to pronounce the Hogan word. YIKES!!!

Loukopoulos
20th October 2004, 03:58
Yes, I agree.

Primarily people separate by conveniently saying Japanese/Okinawa by placing a slash. That is in English. A few postings back I made a clarification between Okinawan pronunciation and Japanese. The example I used was Tonfa (Japanese) and Tunfa/Tuifu (Okinawan). And the oar was (Kai) and Eiku (Okinawan).

O.k. I have killed the horse.

E.elemental
6th November 2004, 01:47
Hello!

Here is a picture of a Sai made by Mr Carbone and a Sai from Shureido. I have placed them next to eachother so its possible to compare them. If someone is interrested I could send that person more pictures of the Sai from Carbone, or from shureido of Course. :) Carbone Sai, left, Shureido sai right.

Now when I have had some training with Carbones Sai I could say that I am very pleased. Comparing them with Shureido is somewhat misleading as I would say that they are a different type of Sai. I like Shureido and Carbones Sai very much and I would recommend both of them. However on a personal basis I think that Carbones Sai are easier to move, since the balance is more to the middle of the sai. Yes it takes a little more effort to get them moving and stopping, but the movement feels very.. flowing? Didnt know if that was the right expression. :o

E.elemental
3rd December 2004, 15:25
Today I recieved my new Tonfa from Carbone since my first order of them got a bit wrong because of a misunderstanding. Anyway I am very pleased with them and the size got perfect. And YES they are the best tonfa I owned so far.

Many here have personal experience or opinions on his Sai. Is there anyone that have any opinions other then me on his tonfa? Good? Bad? :)

And have anyone attended his seminars?

chizikunbo
14th December 2004, 17:52
I have used Carbon, Shureido, Taika Oyatas special sai, and Century sai, I have I personally like the weight of the shureido and the feel of carbone sai, but persoanlly the Oyata sai that you get from http://ryu-te-supplies.com are my favorite, but Mr. Carbones are also good, Shuridos are just to expensive. The only thing about Mr Carbone that I have a problem with are th Jo's those flares on the end snap right off, done it to 2 of them.

E.elemental
14th December 2004, 18:24
Thanks for the info, since Mr Carbone told me that I was his first customer in Sweden opinions about them here are rare. So its valuable to me that I can get opinions from elsewhere. Yes I have earlier heard about Oyata Sai and they look interesting, but the pictures werent so good I think? If you have the possibility maybe you could take some photos of them and post? Perhaps in a new thread? But anyway I would be interested. Can Oyate make custom made Sai? :)

I will post a picture of Carbone Tonfa, the grip is similar to Shureido but slightly thicker and I like it very much. And they are heavy, if thats good or bad is a matter of taste, perhaps they could be a bit lighter.. but just a bit... :D

Sunsu
25th December 2004, 19:23
Hello all;

I was wondering if anyone had experience with the Carbones Chizi Kun Bo, specifically the stainless steel?

Merry Christmas!

chizikunbo
25th December 2004, 21:58
Originally posted by Sunsu
Hello all;

I was wondering if anyone had experience with the Carbones Chizi Kun Bo, specifically the stainless steel?

Merry Christmas!
Hey Cody, I think I know you off Erics Board, welcome!
Mr. Carbones Bubungia Chizikunbo are great, but the stainless steel kind of hamper technique, too heavyI think.
Now Ill also refer you to http://ryu-te-supplies.com under Tanbo & Chizkunbo section. They are decent, and the price is right too!


About Taika's sai, Ill see if I cannot get some photos they are very good sai however, and not priced bad at all. I dont think that custom sai are done, and if and when they are done they would probebly be Yudansha in the assosiation only. The sizes they have are listed, you can contact Saleem Saed on the website, he handels sales and can answer any questions :)

Nadelman
27th December 2005, 21:43
I have a pair of the Agena Energy Sai and have to say that they are the best I have ever owned. They are heavier, but better to train with and master a heavier pair than a lighter pair. The balance is superb and yes, they do "flow". They are very sturdy when blocking a bo.

Others in the dojo have his other weapons and they are considered the "A" weapons in the dojo.

I had the pleasure to meet Mr. Carbone at a seminar he gave at our dojo and he delivered them to me personally.

I highly reccomend his products.

Normal Guy
29th December 2005, 00:56
If anyone has any questions about the Weapons Connection or Kyoshi Carbone, I would be happy to answer them. Also, I can introduce you at some point if you like. I was wondering if anyone has a copy of that article from an Isshin Ryu person that addresses Kyoshi Carbone. The link you provided is not active. Thank you. Normal Guy.

Nadelman
1st January 2006, 16:32
Don't get me wrong... they are a BEAUTFIFUL pair of sai. If they are really made from tire irons and bolts, all the cooler. I'm just curious to how they compare to what I've always thought to be the "gold standard" in sai.


My understanding is that the sai are made from a single bar of steel, on a laithe, and a second one is welded on to form the foils. He makes to rope on the grip himself.

RobertRousselot
4th January 2006, 02:40
Lipski,

I posted this in a different location but maybe this is a better place to ask.
I found this located on the Soke Menkyo Kai Website http://www.sokeship.com/LINKS.htm
Maybe you can explain this to me.

The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.
If you are unfamiliar with " Ki energy" then we recommend the web site below. The Ki Development Assn. has a book that explains and easily teaches one how to do Ki.

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai “charged” with ki ?
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki?

From Carbone’s own website:
"The Energy Sai of Agena"
(Agena area of Gushikawa City, Okinawa)

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

In Okinawa Martial Arts History, the finest handmade Sai came from the Miyahira Family. They passed the secret technique of making the Sai to their son who continued the craft. The superb balance and shape made the Sai a perfect weapon for combat. They were the preferred choice of the Masters.

Again I have questions:
1) How does it collect my energy?
2) How does it compress it?
3) How and what does it look like when it “explodes out of the end”?
4) Is it possible to see this explosion?

Nadelman
4th January 2006, 17:01
Robert,

Perhaps you should contact these people directly, they use and endorse Mr. Carbones Sai. Most of them are in Okinawa and Japan, so it should be easy enough for you to look them up.

Kotaro Iha, Fusei Kise, Kiichi Nakamoto, Tsuguo Sakamoto, Kensho Tokumura, Angi Uezu, Seikichi Odo, Giyu Gibo, Master Higaonna, Eiko Shimabukuro, Ichiro Nakahodo, Shinsei Matsumoto, Master Miyahira, Tsuyoshi Uechi, Master Miyazato, Seikichi Iha, Kunio Uehara, Masahiro Nakamoto, Tsuneo Shimabukuro, Zenpo Shimabukuro.

Also, here is a link with with photos of them holding their Carbone Sai
http://www.weaponsconnection.com/.

As a matter of fact, I am sure that Mr. Carbone would be more than happy to answer your questions as well. He is known for being polite and responding to all who inquire.

Trying to cause damage to someone's reputation based solely on heresay and inuendo is morally wrong. If you have something factual, I have yet to read it in any of your posts.

"Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one." ~Chinese Proverb

RobertRousselot
4th January 2006, 21:36
Robert,

1) Perhaps you should contact these people directly, they use and endorse Mr. Carbones Sai. Most of them are in Okinawa and Japan, so it should be easy enough for you to look them up.

2) Also, here is a link with with photos of them holding their Carbone Sai
http://www.weaponsconnection.com/.

As a matter of fact, I am sure that Mr. Carbone would be more than happy to answer your questions as well. He is known for being polite and responding to all who inquire.

3) Trying to cause damage to someone's reputation based solely on heresay and inuendo is morally wrong. If you have something factual, I have yet to read it in any of your posts.

"Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one." ~Chinese Proverb


1) Actually my questions were directed at the person that wrote this:


If anyone has any questions about the Weapons Connection or Kyoshi Carbone, I would be happy to answer them. Also, I can introduce you at some point if you like. I was wondering if anyone has a copy of that article from an Isshin Ryu person that addresses Kyoshi Carbone. The link you provided is not active. Thank you. Normal Guy.

So I did and the answer I got was……..


As far as your questions about Kyoshi Carbone's Sai, feel free to ask him yourself if you are sincerely curious. It sounds like you want a pair. Perhaps you should order the Sai and have your questions answered? I believe him, and believe in him, and know him to be a superior martial artist in all respects……..


2) Based on those small photos I honestly can’t tell who’s sai they are holding. Also, just because they are holding the sai so and so made doesn’t mean they actually use them.
3) Still on that topic are you? Well those comments are totally unrelated so I am wondering why you felt the need to pop that in here. Or maybe you feel that by asking the logical question as I have done above will in some way damage a person's reputation.... :rolleyes:

Nadelman
4th January 2006, 23:53
2) Based on those small photos I honestly can’t tell who’s sai they are holding. Also, just because they are holding the sai so and so made doesn’t mean they actually use them.


Robert

Ok, forget the photos. If you are really interested in getting to the truth as you say, just contact these masters directly, most of them are in Okinawa and Japan, so it should be a local call, and they are rather well known and even famous, so locating them shouldn't be a problem.

If you were really the truth seeking crusader of martial arts justice as you portray yourself to be, you would call Kyoshi Carbone directly and confront the man directly whose integrity you have questioned.

I suppose it is easier to just sit behind your keyboard and throw baseless inuendo and heresay at people. You must have missed that lesson your Sensei taught about Courtesy and Respect being central to a way of life in Karate. What a great example you must be to your students.

RobertRousselot
5th January 2006, 00:54
Robert

1) Ok, forget the photos. If you are really interested in getting to the truth as you say, just contact these masters directly, most of them are in Okinawa and Japan, so it should be a local call, and they are rather well known and even famous, so locating them shouldn't be a problem.

If you were really the truth seeking crusader of martial arts justice as you portray yourself to be, you would call Kyoshi Carbone directly and confront the man directly whose integrity you have questioned.

2) I suppose it is easier to just sit behind your keyboard and throw baseless inuendo and heresay at people. You must have missed that lesson your Sensei taught about Courtesy and Respect being central to a way of life in Karate. What a great example you must be to your students.

1) Actually it is still a long distance call. However, my questions weren’t directed at these gentlemen nor do I care what kind of sai they use. It wasn't part of my question so let's keep on track. My questions were directed at those people on this forum that said:


If anyone has any questions about the Weapons Connection or Kyoshi Carbone, I would be happy to answer them.....

2) Uh? I asked simple questions about information on a website. You are obviously over defensive about it as can be seen from your answers.

It seems to me that since you as well as Lipski are familiar with the weapons Carbone has made and you both obviously support him then you should know something about these energy/ki charged sai he claims to be making. These are all pretty straight forward and simple questions that should be verifiable by either of you.
Just to reiterate my simple questions plus a few more I have thought of:


The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.
If you are unfamiliar with " Ki energy" then we recommend the web site below. The Ki Development Assn. has a book that explains and easily teaches one how to do Ki.

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai “charged” with ki ?
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki?
3) How was this energy/ki measured before and after someone used them? (what scientific method did they use?)
4) These sword smiths of old that are referred to; are they Japanese sword makers that pounded and folded the metal several hundred times or is it some other sword making style?

From Carbone’s own website:
"The Energy Sai of Agena"
(Agena area of Gushikawa City, Okinawa)

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

In Okinawa Martial Arts History, the finest handmade Sai came from the Miyahira Family. They passed the secret technique of making the Sai to their son who continued the craft. The superb balance and shape made the Sai a perfect weapon for combat. They were the preferred choice of the Masters.

Again I have questions:
1) How does it collect my energy? (in what scientific way is this done?)
2) How does it compress it? (in what scientific way is this done? I have yet to understand how a solid piece of metal can “compress” anything. My limited knowledge of physics is at your mercy for a clearer definition.)
3) How and what does it look like when it “explodes out of the end”? (this would be an awesome feat, do you relize it would make conventional weapons obsolete. Sorry to say but this sounds a little too much like Dillman’s claim were he was exposed on a National Geographic Documentary for saying he was able to shoot “chi balls” out while he is standing in line at Starbucks. Perhaps you should consider taking James Randi’s challenge of $1,000,000 http://www.randi.org/research/ )
4) Is it possible to see this explosion? (what a stupid question. Sorry for asking. obviously this can be seen by anyone using these sai)


A couple things come to mind while reading these website’s claims.
One, and I am not really sure why, is a story called “The Emperor’s New Clothes” by Hans Christian Andersen (1805-75) http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Emperors-New-Clothes.htm
The second is where has the truth in advertising gone and why are people not held more accountable for what they sell on the internet. If I advertised a car, a pen, or a pool cue using the same claims as those websites people would think I was full of it and call me out on it. AND if they actually bought one of them and it didn’t do the thing(s) claimed my butt would be sued for sure.

Nadelman
5th January 2006, 04:50
Robert,

1) First, you claim Mr. Carbone was "infamous" and insult him based on heresay and inuendo - no first hand information or facts to back up your claims.

2) Then when that didn't work, you switch tactics and start attacking his products.

3) You refuse to verify his claims by contacting a single person on a list of world renowned masters who endorse his products (from his website) because you "don't care what sai they use", :confused:

4) Then, you insist that third a third party answer your questions instead of contacting him directly to confront him about his claims.

5) You hide behind your keyboard and rant and rave yet you don't avail yourself of an obvious avenue to prove yourself correct.

My beef is not with the questions you ask, but your methods. If you really were interested in "exposing" something, then you could just ask him yourself or the people that endorse him and his products. Simple.

Your real agenda is clear to all who are reading your posts.

I have nothing more to discuss with you. I rest my case.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."
[Plato]

.

RobertRousselot
5th January 2006, 05:05
Robert,

1) First, you claim Mr. Carbone was "infamous" and insult him based on heresay and inuendo - no first hand information or facts to back up your claims.

2) Then when that didn't work, you switch tactics and start attacking his products.

3) You refuse to verify his claims by contacting a single person on a list of world renowned masters who endorse his products (from his website) because you "don't care what sai they use", :confused:

4) Then, you insist that third a third party answer your questions instead of contacting him directly to confront him about his claims.

5) You hide behind your keyboard and rant and rave yet you don't avail yourself of an obvious avenue to prove yourself correct.

6) My beef is not with the questions you ask, but your methods. If you really were interested in "exposing" something, then you could just ask him yourself or the people that endorse him and his products. Simple.

Your real agenda is clear to all who are reading your posts.

I have nothing more to discuss with you. I rest my case.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something."
[Plato]

.

Nice attempt at trying to derail this thread but the questions are still there for you and still unanswered.

1) Get your facts straight. Nothing was hearsay. I had first hand interaction with Carbone and stated so.
2) Worked? I wasn’t aware anything was supposed to “work”. I stated facts based on my knowledge of him. As for attacking his products, nope I merely asked simple questions which nobody from his camp seems to want to answer.
3) My questions were not about “who uses” his products but rather they are about the products themselves, the claims made by the maker and directed at the few individuals here on E-Budo that said they would be happy to answer any questions about his products. So far I have not gotten an answer from those folks.
4) See number 3.
5) I am asking the questions but getting, to date, not a single answer. It’s extremely odd that all of you in his camp clam up and can’t/won’t give me a logical answer to questions about claims in his advertising.
6) I think your “beef” with me is more like I asked straight forward questions to “extreme” claims made on a website and you can’t answer them with any degree of logic therefore you try to derail this thread by relating events from an entirely different thread.


So are the claims made on Carbone's website about the Sai true or not?
Specifically this one:
The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

RobertRousselot
5th January 2006, 09:05
I have a pair of the Agena Energy Sai 。。。。。。。。。

Since you are on this forum and you claim to own a pair I will direct these questions at you.

From Carbone's website:
The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

1) Are the sai “charged” with ki ?
2) If so does this make it easier to send ki?
3) Do they "collect your energy"?
4) Do they compress it?
5) Does ki “explode out of the end”?

tsurutengu
5th January 2006, 14:33
1) Are the sai “charged” with ki ?
2) If so does this make it easier to send ki?
3) Do they "collect your energy"?
4) Do they compress it?
5) Does ki “explode out of the end”?

Mr. Rousselot,

I don't know Mr. Carbone; own or have handled any of his equipment; or knowingly met any of his students. With that said, I can say, with a staright face, that if any one of the five items you have listed are true, Mr Carbone is definitely in line for the next Nobel Prize in Physics.

Normal Guy
5th January 2006, 16:49
Fellas,

This is getting a bit silly. You know that the Sai is not a lazer gun, yet you are taking things to the absurd to make it appear as if he intends to portray it as such. Its obvious that your posts are intended to create the appearance of absurdity to cover up what you have failed to admit is rude behavior.

No one that has this sai ever assumed it would shoot out "energy balls" as you stated above. Its not some sort of ficticious magical device or intended to appear as such. Kyoshi would tell you that himself. He doesn't claim to perform "no touch knockouts" either. He is a real down to earth martial artist and I'm still perplexed why it is so important for you to try and cut him down.

However, Kyoshi does have a unique proprietary process and quite frankly, he would be ill-advised to tell people all the details because there are people who would steal that process and call it their own. And I don't mean to insinuate that would be you, but who are you to him and why should he care what you think? I'm the one that is upset with your insults. If the tables were turned and I were to insult your teacher, perhaps you would feel the same. But, I would not insult your teacher.

Plus, people really like his Sai and I've not heard that any one of them was juvenile enough to interpret the language of the web site to mean that it shoots out magic little lazer balls. As I understand it, most or all of the people that buy his Sai talk to him first and go through measurement issues and other details and they all seem satisfied that they received the Sai he told them they would. I've seen much of the time, sweat, and details that go into making these Sai in his shop and its quite grueling. It actually takes too long for me to sit through it. In fact, he is going to have to retire from this process soon because, even with a mask on, his lungs are collecting too much metal.

If you are the type of martial artist that believes that one can in fact empower their martial art technique through focusing and transfering energy, then you may understand why this Sai bolsters that flow -- if you had a pair (so to speak).

But, If you don't believe that something can be fabricated to be a superior conductor of energy when compared to another similar device, and you don't believe that in the martial art you are working on building, collecting and transferring something (call it energy, ki, or whatever you want) when you do technique, you would not understand or agree with this point. If you think that the focus of and transmission of energy and ki, whether through a weapon or otherwise, is not a real thing, then of course you would have no reason to believe that one Sai can be made to do that better than another --because you don't believe that such a transfer occurs under any circumstances. That is your prerogative. There are many unknowns with regard to the transmission of energy.

And on the topic of the Nobel Prize: physicists are still trying to explain many unknowns. For example: how electrons can be particles or waves at different times depending on how, when and who observes them; how an electron can exist at one moment and not another; how quantum physics and relativity can exist together; what gravity really is; whether sting theory is the answer; and whether there is a universe of imaginary space time outside of our space time. The existence and transmission of Ki presents a similar quandry. I believe it is there, and you may not. I believe I have experienced ki or something like it, and you apparently have not. Some theories of medicine use and believe in chi and others do not. If you've seen "What the Bleep," which is an interesting movie, there are Zen masters that believe they can change the appearance of water molecules through prayer and I think there is a book out about that discovery. Its really up to each of us to accept our truths and none of us to assume we are almighty.

So, we can agree to disagree. And I can accept that I don't have all the answers. But that doesn't change the initial point of my message to you. There is no justification for your nasty postings and backstabs. I think that deep down you know this to be true, but have to save face now that this process is started by trying to prove your point and have the last word. Which is fine. You may respond to this posting and have all the last words you want. I am satisifed that this debate could go on and on without end if one of us doesn't stop. So I will stop on my end.

And again, I wish you good fortune and success in your training and your life. Very truly yours, David Lipski

Nadelman
5th January 2006, 18:05
"If you walk, just walk. If you sit, just sit. But whatever you do, don't wobble."
- Master Ummon

.

cxt
5th January 2006, 19:40
Look, I have nothing but respect for the sai that Mr. Carbone makes, I own a couple of pairs myself, as do several of my training buddies.

I would heartly recommend them to anyone serious enough about their art to invest in some serious training equipment.

(as far as the sai go, have not ordered anything else--but I did encourge several people to buy them---and they have loved them)

They are very well balanced, and worth every penny.

However, the wording that Robert Rousselot points out on some of the marketing material used is more than bit "out there."

Not an "attack" of some sort--its a accurate observation/question as to some of the verbage used.

And he's right--it is.


Chris Thomas

Nadelman
5th January 2006, 20:14
I understand Ki to be the power I generate when striking a target, and a weapon as being an extension of my body. So, by virtue of design, a well crafted and balanced weapon could help to facilitate, and even accelerate that power. There is a similiar mystique with the sword among Samurai. It has been refered to as the "soul" of a Samurai. It is more that just the material.

I had a "connection" to my rifle when I was in the army. I could swear I "knew" when it needed to be oiled, and cleaned, and when it needed adjustment, just by holding it. I was in the IDF and we never put our weapon down, even to sleep, eat, or go to the bathroom.

If you have used his Sai for a while, pick up your old commercial pair and go through a kata, really hard. You will immediately understand the difference in feeling when you strike. His Sai do seem to "flow" once you have used them for a while. Go through this excercise and tell me what your experience is.

This is what my experience and understanding is having used these Sai religiously and on a daily basis for the past month.

cxt
5th January 2006, 20:49
Nadelman

Again, you seem to miss the point.

Compared to "commercial" sai they SHOULD feel and work better.

They are a more expensive, better crafted, better balanced, better constructed weapon.

The work of a true, painstaking, craftsman.

I consider myself lucky to be able to afford the sai's I purchased from him.
As do the guys that have also bought sai from him.

I even understand what your saying and where your coming from.

But Robert is still correct in what he points out on the verbage of some of the marketing material.

And I'll have to honest with you, had I not held and used a pair of the sai prior to buying them--that verbage would have prevented me from doing so.

If nothing else this discussion is a really good example of how perception---right or wrong--can effect peoples willingness to buy--does not matter of we are talking a physical product or training.

Its might be useful for Mr. Carbone to have this information.
Could be that he was unaware of the how people are reading and "taking" what is used to market his sai.

Information like this is sometimes pure gold.


Chris Thomas

Nadelman
5th January 2006, 21:46
:)

Come now, only an incredibley naive person really believes that energy beams or the such are going to shoot out of these Sai. This is really silly.

I know you did not take it that way either. Robert R. also doesn't really believe it either. He is an experienced marial artists, owns a dojo in Tokyo and knows better than that. He just has a bug about Kyoshi Carbone for some personal reasons, and this is how he is taking out.

Kyoshi Carbone is not some guy in a garage. He is an extremely well respected master with 40 some odd years in the martial arts. He is well known in Okinawa, and holds and 8th Dan in both Isshinryu and Kobudo. He is recognized by a great many very high profile people.

I wouldn't take this seriously, and neither should you, and neither should Robert R. He knows better too. Come on guys, this has become very silly.

.

RobertRousselot
5th January 2006, 23:17
Fellas,

1) This is getting a bit silly. You know that the Sai is not a lazer gun, yet you are taking things to the absurd to make it appear as if he intends to portray it as such. Its obvious that your posts are intended to create the appearance of absurdity to cover up what you have failed to admit is rude behavior.

2) Its not some sort of ficticious magical device or intended to appear as such. Kyoshi would tell you that himself. He doesn't claim to perform "no touch knockouts" either. He is a real down to earth martial artist and I'm still perplexed why it is so important for you to try and cut him down.

3) However, Kyoshi does have a unique proprietary process and quite frankly, he would be ill-advised to tell people all the details because there are people who would steal that process and call it their own. And I don't mean to insinuate that would be you, but who are you to him and why should he care what you think? I'm the one that is upset with your insults. If the tables were turned and I were to insult your teacher, perhaps you would feel the same. But, I would not insult your teacher.

4) Plus, people really like his Sai and I've not heard that any one of them was juvenile enough to interpret the language of the web site to mean that it shoots out magic little lazer balls. As I understand it, most or all of the people that buy his Sai talk to him first and go through measurement issues and other details and they all seem satisfied that they received the Sai he told them they would. I've seen much of the time, sweat, and details that go into making these Sai in his shop and its quite grueling. It actually takes too long for me to sit through it. In fact, he is going to have to retire from this process soon because, even with a mask on, his lungs are collecting too much metal.

If you are the type of martial artist that believes that one can in fact empower their martial art technique through focusing and transfering energy, then you may understand why this Sai bolsters that flow -- if you had a pair (so to speak).

But, If you don't believe that something can be fabricated to be a superior conductor of energy when compared to another similar device, and you don't believe that in the martial art you are working on building, collecting and transferring something (call it energy, ki, or whatever you want) when you do technique, you would not understand or agree with this point. If you think that the focus of and transmission of energy and ki, whether through a weapon or otherwise, is not a real thing, then of course you would have no reason to believe that one Sai can be made to do that better than another --because you don't believe that such a transfer occurs under any circumstances. That is your prerogative. There are many unknowns with regard to the transmission of energy.

And on the topic of the Nobel Prize: physicists are still trying to explain many unknowns. For example: how electrons can be particles or waves at different times depending on how, when and who observes them; how an electron can exist at one moment and not another; how quantum physics and relativity can exist together; what gravity really is; whether sting theory is the answer; and whether there is a universe of imaginary space time outside of our space time. The existence and transmission of Ki presents a similar quandry. I believe it is there, and you may not. I believe I have experienced ki or something like it, and you apparently have not. Some theories of medicine use and believe in chi and others do not. If you've seen "What the Bleep," which is an interesting movie, there are Zen masters that believe they can change the appearance of water molecules through prayer and I think there is a book out about that discovery. Its really up to each of us to accept our truths and none of us to assume we are almighty.

5) So, we can agree to disagree. And I can accept that I don't have all the answers. But that doesn't change the initial point of my message to you. There is no justification for your nasty postings and backstabs. I think that deep down you know this to be true, but have to save face now that this process is started by trying to prove your point and have the last word. Which is fine. You may respond to this posting and have all the last words you want. I am satisifed that this debate could go on and on without end if one of us doesn't stop. So I will stop on my end.

And again, I wish you good fortune and success in your training and your life. Very truly yours, David Lipski

As expected I see a long diatribe with lots of hot air but no real answer to a single question I put forth. I wonder what the legal ramifications of false advertising are....

1) Silly?? Silly is a grown man making those claims on his website and actually expecting someone with more than one brain cell to believe it. My posts don’t create an appearance of absurdity, Carbone’s website claims do that by themselves. I merely ask questions about what he claims. What I have done by posting these questions is show that Carbone is possible of making some pretty outlandish claims now as he has done in the past. This is obviously a pattern with him.
2) His website claims would tend to make folks think differently.
3) Yes, I guess sai production is a cut throat market. :rolleyes:
4) I never said lazer balls, that is something you threw in there. If you are going to quote me do so correctly. Actually Carbone is the one that said “it explodes out the end”.
5) A typical “PC” comment by someone that can’t answer or support a logical response to questions asked.



"If you walk, just walk. If you sit, just sit. But whatever you do, don't wobble."
- Master Ummon

.

Your fortune cookie qutes are getting old. Why don't you post something on topic for a change.




1) I understand Ki to be the power I generate when striking a target, and a weapon as being an extension of my body. ……..
2) There is a similiar mystique with the sword among Samurai. It has been refered to as the "soul" of a Samurai. It is more that just the material.

3) If you have used his Sai for a while, pick up your old commercial pair and go through a kata, really hard. You will immediately understand the difference in feeling when you strike. His Sai do seem to "flow" once you have used them for a while. Go through this excercise and tell me what your experience is.

This is what my experience and understanding is having used these Sai religiously and on a daily basis for the past month.

1) No, that is not “Ki”, what you described is common physics. See website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)
2) You have grossly misunderstood the phrase referring to the sword being the "soul" of the Samurai
3) No thanks. I have a pair of Sai that were made by my teacher that are balanced just fine even though they don’t “explode out of the end”.


:)

1) Come now, only an incredibley naive person really believes that energy beams or the such are going to shoot out of these Sai. This is really silly.

2) I know you did not take it that way either. Robert R. also doesn't really believe it either. He is an experienced marial artists, owns a dojo in Tokyo and knows better than that. He just has a bug about Kyoshi Carbone for some personal reasons, and this is how he is taking out.
3) I wouldn't take this seriously, and neither should you, and neither should Robert R. He knows better too. Come on guys, this has become very silly.

.

1) Or so someone might hope by writing such stuff on their website. Your buddy Carbone wrote "it explodes out the end" so he therefore must believe it himself. Or did he just make that up?
2) I only read the claims that were written and then questioned their validity. You and Lipski seem to have gotten your panties in a wad because I would dare ask or question your teacher’s website claims.
3) It sounds like you would like me to stop asking for an answer to my questions. Why is it neither you or Lipski have answered a single question I have asked about Carbone’s claims?

Well after my last experience with Carbone’s website claims I have learned to “file & save” so I have taken a “snapshot” of his website just in case he changes it.

Looking forward to an answer to my questions.

The definition of "explosion"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosion

Nadelman
6th January 2006, 01:29
Robert,

Why do you keep getting banned from other forums? Is it your obnoxious and confrontational demeanor?

It seems you have a history of harrassing people on these forums.

***************************************
RRousselot Account Suspended:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/member.php?userid=7120
***************************************

You will have to log in to this one to see his profile:

RRouuselot Banned User

http://www.martialtalk.com
***************************************

RobertRousselot
6th January 2006, 01:51
Robert,

Why do you keep getting banned from other forums? Is it your obnoxious and confrontational demeanor?

It seems you have a history of harrassing people on these forums.

***************************************
RRousselot Account Suspended:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/member.php?userid=7120
***************************************

You will have to log in to this one to see his profile:

RRouuselot Banned User

http://www.martialtalk.com
***************************************

*YAWN*

I see you are trying to attack my character in a weak ploy and yet another lame attempt to differ attention from the topic at hand. Doing so means you are obviously desperate. I must have really struck a nerve by asking open honest questions about Carbone's claims on his website.

Banned from Forums:

As far as I know I am only Banned from martialtalk and I am not ashamed of it. .
I, and others, were booted from Martialtalk because I posted information regarding Dr Gyi and his bogus claims as to being a war hero, his fictitious rank and so on. This pissed some Moderators off over there since their teacher has some connection/holds seminars for Dr Gyi.
This coupled with the fact that martialtalk tended to be a magnet for every dingle berry that claimed to be a Soke-Doke, (See Soke Calkins threads) or other circus like idiots that claimed they could perform “no touchy KO’s”, had no less than 5 ranks of 7th dan or higher and claimed those styles exist in Okinawa and elsewhere but actually do not. As well as other folks like Jack Papa Stearns and his ilk. (Stearns claimed he won the Congressional Medal of Honor- and actually had not-which is a felony). It’s because I would not tolerate BS from folks like this that probably got me banned. Some folks call it having integrity.

I wonder how your posting this is relevant to the topic of this thread.
You still won’t answer those question about the sai?
I wonder why you can’t/won’t…….

Nadelman
6th January 2006, 11:40
***************************************
RRousselot Account Suspended:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/m...php?userid=7120
***************************************

You are also banned from this forum.

My posting is relevant because it demonstrates a pattern of behavior by you. I don't have to attack your character. Your behavior on this and other forums speaks for itself. Your postings and flame wars are out there for anyone to read.

No answer about the Sai will satisfy you, as demonstrated. It is part of the pattern that gets you banned on other forums. Since I don't make the Sai, I cannot answer your questions and nobody on this forum can. Only the man who makes them.

You refuse to contact Kyoshi Carbone directly. Instead, you prefer to hide behind your computer, picking fights and getting banned from forums all over the internet.

************************************************
:D :D You still refuse to contact Kyoshi Carbone directly :D :D
************************************************

LOL
.

RobertRousselot
6th January 2006, 12:16
***************************************
RRousselot Account Suspended:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/m...php?userid=7120
***************************************

You are also banned from this forum.

1) My posting is relevant because it demonstrates a pattern of behavior by you. I don't have to attack your character.
2) Your behavior on this and other forums speaks for itself. Your postings and flame wars are out there for anyone to read.
3) No answer about the Sai will satisfy you, as demonstrated. It is part of the pattern that gets you banned on other forums.
4) Since I don't make the Sai, I cannot answer your questions and nobody on this forum can. Only the man who makes them.
5) You refuse to contact Kyoshi Carbone directly.
6) Instead, you prefer to hide behind your computer, picking fights and getting banned from forums all over the internet.

************************************************
:D :D You still refuse to contact Kyoshi Carbone directly :D :D
************************************************

LOL
.


Your attempts to derail this thread and post quips about my character are not getting you very far.

1) Is it now?…..Funny, I thought this thread was about “weaponsconnections”. It also seems Lipski invited questions about the group and the content there in….. to which he seems reluctant to answer. Either way, keep posting that I got banned from martialtalk all you like. Hell I will even help you out and put it in my signature.
2) I don’t see the “Moderator” next to your name anywhere. The folks that follow my posts will also notice I usually have the most problems with people that make bogus/ridiculous claims
3) Are you sure? How would you know? You haven’t even tried to answer it yet.
4) Oh, I see. NOW you want to throw that in.
5) Nope. Wrong as usual. I have sent him an email and I am waiting for his reply.
6) So what do you suggest….we meet at the OK Corral and duke it out. :rolleyes:

So do you have anything pertinent to add to this thread about "weaponsconnection" ?

Nadelman
6th January 2006, 13:55
************************************************
You still refuse to contact Kyoshi Carbone directly about his Sai.
************************************************

RobertRousselot
6th January 2006, 13:58
************************************************
You still refuse to contact Kyoshi Carbone directly about his Sai.
************************************************

Obviously you don't read well.
Look at #5 in the post above yours.

Here is the email that was sent:

Mr. Carbone,

I have a few questions for you that some of your associates seem to be unable to answer.
Maybe you can explain this to me. I found these on the internet:

The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.
If you are unfamiliar with " Ki energy" then we recommend the web site below. The Ki Development Assn. has a book that explains and easily teaches one how to do Ki.

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai “charged” with ki ?
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki?

From your own website:
"The Energy Sai of Agena"
(Agena area of Gushikawa City, Okinawa)

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

In Okinawa Martial Arts History, the finest handmade Sai came from the Miyahira Family. They passed the secret technique of making the Sai to their son who continued the craft. The superb balance and shape made the Sai a perfect weapon for combat. They were the preferred choice of the Masters.

Again I have questions:
1) How does it collect my energy?
2) How does it compress it?
3) How and what does it look like when it “explodes out of the end”?
4) Is it possible to see this explosion?

Nadelman
6th January 2006, 14:09
You have finally built up the courage...Great! Now you can stop wasting our time (Even though we have all already provided you with an account of our excellent experience with the product and Mr. Carbone) :rolleyes:

****Oh by the way... You claim that martialtalk attracted "okey sokeys". So, then why do you have hundreds of posts there? You spent an awful lot of time on that forum...

Birds of a feather, flock together?

BTW, you were banned by Budoseek.net as well....Two out of three aint bad :)

RobertRousselot
6th January 2006, 14:16
BTW, you were banned by Budoseek.net as well....Two out of three aint bad :)


*YAWN*

See if you can read what's under my name.
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12855&page=2&pp=20

RRousselot
Account Suspended

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Join Date: Mar 2002
Real Name: Robert Rousselot
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 344

Nadelman
6th January 2006, 14:18
Banned, suspended, yadda yadda yadda...

The bottom line is that you are not a desirable person.

E.elemental
6th January 2006, 16:26
Gentlemen.. please. :)

IMHO the discussion has gone vastly off-topic, I can just beg you to either start a new thread or resolve this by PM. This thread should be dedicated to Mr Carbone and the Weaponsconnection, and especially their weapons (quality, prices, use etc). And in the beginning on this discussion this was the case, but please now the discussion just ruins the thread. The topic can be discussed no question about that, but when discussing whos banned and whos not.. please not here.

Kindest regards

Normal Guy
6th January 2006, 18:10
That's a good idea. Agreed.

RobertRousselot
6th January 2006, 23:32
I still have not received a reply from Carbone.
I sent it to both email addresses listed on his website.

IchiRiKen1
7th January 2006, 02:37
What I love the most about this kind of "discussion" is how the parties that are being asked for support and evidence of their claims, rather than provide same, take an alternate route by trying to discredit those that are asking the questions...

Sai that "explode ki" out of their tips? What is this, Dragonball Z?

I'm happy that this "kyoshi" guy has managed to garner such a following of softheaded nits that are willing to believe that ki will "explode" out of the tip of a weapon. For those of us on Planet Earth that aren't living in a 13th century mindset, you'll have to forgive us for being skeptical of such claims.

Reality must be terribly frightening for some people, to force them into living a fantasy world that requires the suspension of common sense to this degree.

Enjoy.

RobertRousselot
7th January 2006, 12:15
Well folks here it is. The long awaited reply from Carbone. Please read it and see if you can find an answer to a single question I asked. I can’t.


Rousselot Sensei,
1)I was a dedicated student of Mr. Oyata myself for 6 years.
2) I still stay in close contact with Amor Sensei and Wicklund Sensei.
We travel to see each other and train from time to time.

I am confused.
3) Due to your rudeness and insulting nature of our last experience,
I don’t know what has changed from then to now.
First time shame on you, second time shame on me.
So, you will have to excuse me if I feel skeptical of your requests.
Are there ulterior motives? I hope I am wrong.

If this is a way of apologizing for our first encounter, then I will consider it.
I am not interested in getting into a yakking contest.
There is more to the Martial Art than physically hurting some one.
You MUST respect your elders and superiors, according to my family.

My policy is, “If you don’t want the Agena Sai, I don’t want you to have it.
Please send it back and I will return your money. No questions asked.”
In all the years making the Agena Sai, no one has EVER returned them.

I’ll bet I have been perfecting the Agena Sai technique as long or longer than you have been in the Martial Art.
I made my first pair in 1973. Started Martial Art in 1960 at age 14 and serious study in 1972 and traveled to Okinawa
for the first time in 1980 and have been there 23 times and continue to go.
I have never asked for any Rank, Title or Position from anyone.
I make the best and I know it and so does everyone who has the Agena Sai.
Soon, I will retire from making the Agena Sai and become the little old wine maker.
Wine is my passion and I make the best wine, also.
I think I will have a glass after I am through writing this email.

4) When I received your email I wrote a long letter explanation of the mistakes made in your investigation
of my web site description and information about the Agena Sai.
If that was your intent to make me work, you were successful. I only type with 2 fingers.
I will know better next time when someone writes without giving their name.
I hope it was an honest mistake and not a rude gesture.

Even though this email may seem a little uneasy, I don’t really want to have enemies.
I would rather put everything behind and start fresh with a good relationship.
I have made many mistakes in my life. I am too old for bad feelings.
If you want a crude dialog, please don’t write again.
If you are sincere about the education of the Agena Sai I have a DVD of Kihon Buri and some training techniques,
along with a short explanation with historical relationship.
Even Hokama Sensei, PHD was interested.
He is a good friend of Mr. Oyata and requested my Agena Sai.
It is almost finished and will be sent Monday with the DVD.

Sincerely,
Peter Carbone


1)He was a seminar student during that time. Carbone lives in MI, Mr Oyata lives in KC.
2) Two people that were “asked”* to leave Mr. Oyata’s Assoc.(*read booted out) Hardly “character witnesses”. What was the quote Nadelman used?? Oh ya…."birds of a feather"…
3) Gee, he seems to remember me. Seems he hasn’t forgotten about the last time I contacted him about his website having the references to Uhugushuku and Wakinaguri and asked him to remove it.
4) I quoted his own website and asked him to explain the claims he made so I am wondering where these “mistakes” I made are?

Well I count 510 words and nowhere is there an answer to a single question I asked. Actually I expected something like this from him.

E.elemental
7th January 2006, 16:07
Then its settled, now we can leave that specific subject. I highly doubt that anone will shed some new light over this issue. :)

When I bought my sai from him I didnt really got them for the sake of ki or anything else, and when I started using them I just liked the feeling of them, its as simple as that. :p

RobertRousselot
8th January 2006, 00:31
Then its settled, now we can leave that specific subject. I highly doubt that anone will shed some new light over this issue. :)

When I bought my sai from him I didnt really got them for the sake of ki or anything else, and when I started using them I just liked the feeling of them, its as simple as that. :p


Actually I think the main discussions from this thread have been moved here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32110

E.elemental
8th January 2006, 02:03
Actually I think the main discussions from this thread have been moved here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32110

Yes I noticed that. Thats just fine, I just thought it got a bit off-topic for this thread, but the questions could of course be debated else were.

ryukyu2000
8th January 2006, 14:59
To all:

I have not been asked by anyone to write this nor am I a student or member of Mr. Carbone's weapons society. I thought it important to state my experience with Mr. Carbone in light of the many e-mails recently posted.

In 1996, I saw a very small ad in a martial arts magazine (don't remember which one) regarding Mr. Carbone's sai. The internet was very new during that period and I was not on the internet. I contacted Mr. Carbone, we talked about his sai and my training needs, he directed me regarding the measurements he needed and 3 weeks later a great pair of sai arrived. These were clearly custom made to my specifications. I also ordered a second pair for my training partner.

In 2005, I interacted with Mr. Carbone again to order a second pair of sai for myself with some slight modifications in terms of shaft dimension and without the standard grip. Even though we interacted over e-mail, Mr. Carbone called me to ensure that we discussed my training needs and again these arrived clearly custom made to my specifications.

I am aware of a small handful of instructors in the US who make customized sai. I think we should be grateful that as a small collective group that they continue these traditions for us. Based on my experience over a decade with Mr. Carbone, he worked hard to meet my needs, and exceeded, and delivered on time. As a long-term student of karate and kobudo, these things are important to me. Simply put, Mr. Carbone delivered.

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY USA

Doug Daulton
9th January 2006, 09:46
So, it appears as if the Carbone "debate" spilled into this thread as well. As I've shut it down elsewhere, I am shutting it down here as well. For those interested in discussing the actual issues in questions. I'll open a few new relevant threads.

As I said elsewhere ...

1) Stay on topic (or close to relevant, naturally-occuring tangents)
2) Back up your challenges with fact
3) Refrain from name-calling.

If you cannot do these three things, you should consider not participating at all.

Best of luck in your training.