PDA

View Full Version : Kama Kata



Chris McLean
7th August 2004, 06:12
I am trying to find information on traditional Okinawan Kama Kata.
Does any one run Toyama No Niecho No Kama?
If so am I spelling it correctly?
Can anyone tell me about its origins and history?

Gene Williams
7th August 2004, 12:22
There are not very many kama kata that are "orthodox" and go back a ways. On Okinawa they are called "Ni cho gama." Hama Higa is old, so is Kingawa. Toyama is another. Hama Higa is named after an island, the others are named after people. There are many, many "dojo" kama kata, made up by someone. I think Mabuni made a couple, Jushi, I think is one. The old ones are not fancy or flashy. They don't have a bunch of flips or kicks, and they look strong. Sakagami has a book, a series on Ryukyu Kobudo, which is excellent if you can find it. History of development is very hard to find. Most of it is oral history.

Chris McLean
7th August 2004, 15:08
Thank You, yes finding information has not been easy. I have some oral information. But I am trying to learn more. So do you know if I am spelling it correctly? From what Sensei has told us there where only five original Kama Kata on the island before WWII. I dont know all their names. I never really appreciated the Kama as a weapon until he pulled out a couple of real ones from his bag. Very impressive compared to the fake practice kama every one uses to do fancy flashy moves with. It becomes very obvious after seeing the real Kama why the Kata is simple and powerful.

Gene Williams
7th August 2004, 15:22
I know that four of the five are: Kingawa Dai and Sho, Toyama, and Hama Higa. I don't know the name of the other one. Shureido makes a nice kama, but they are pricey. Please...don't buy those dull edged things. Learn with a real weapon. It changes everything. By the way, when I said the old kata do not have many flips, I meant hand reversals, not acrobatics.:D

Chris McLean
7th August 2004, 16:16
Thanks for the help!

dsomers
7th August 2004, 16:50
Toyama No Nicho Gama also goes by Tozan No Nicho Gama . You can find it in Inoue Sensei's book , Toshishiro Obata's book , & there's a website that has it , as well . If you need help finding it , let me know & I'll provide the link for you .

David

Chris McLean
7th August 2004, 17:13
David thanks for the correct spelling and info. yes could you Pm the link or post it here please. I will look for the books.

dsomers
7th August 2004, 18:10
Here's the link : http://home.planet.nl/~poel0383/kama_tozan.html , I dont know how accurate it is though , as I do not know the kata & probablly wont be learning it for a few years .
On a side note , I'd like to add , a while ago I compared this kata to that of Hama Higa , it appears that they are almost identical . I'm wondering if one was based on the other , or perhaps they are the same kata , but by different names . Like the Bo Kata Oshiro No kun , it is also known as Ufugusuku No Kun , & the Kata we're talking about Toyama , is also known as Tozan ; and possibly Hama Higa ? Thoughts ?

David

harleyt26
8th August 2004, 05:02
in the ryu kyu kobudo system of Tamayose Hidemi we have been taught the kata Kanagawa No Nicho Gama. Thomas Hodges

Shikiyanaka
12th August 2004, 13:22
Hi,

二丁鎌 = Ni Ch Kama. The "" is a long vowel. Ch simply indicates the counting of things, thus "Ni Ch Kama" simple means "2 sickles."

Kanegawa no Nichgama: Kanegawa no Gibu was the grandfather of Taira Shinken. He is said to have developed the Kanegawa no Nichōgama
and Kanegawa no Timbe. Inoue in Ryky Kobud Jkan wrote that Kanegawa has been a "student of the great Yafuso" :) while Tyama is simply described as "A great master of Bōjutsu" and as founder of Tōyama no Nichōgama and Tōyama no Kun.

Nichōgama, Nunchaku, Surujin, Tekkō, Tinbe and Rochin are all every day tools. This gave rise to the theorie that Ryūkyū Kobudō is a peasants martial art. The development of theses weapons, however, only took place in the ending 19th century, when the Ryky kingdom had been abolished and the officials and high class people (Oyakata, Pchin, etc.) lost their offices and with this the (weapons)tradition connected to them.

While the kata of B, Sai and Tunfa may be easily dated back in the times of Ryūkyū kingdom, this is not the case with these "peasant weapons," and belonging to them the Kama. Becoming Okinawa-ken in 1879, the original approach to weapons use (in whatever way this happened) was lost and - while keeping the old traditions alive - substituted and enlarged by new ways. So, depending on ones standpoint about what tradition is, Kama are relatively new (at least as a classified weapon).
Maybe this adds to the discussion.

Shikiyanaka
12th August 2004, 14:54
Gene,

can you tell from what system Hama Higa no Kama is from??? I mainly found american websites where this kata is mentioned, so I would guess it stems from Isshin-ry???

Gene Williams
12th August 2004, 15:22
Either Shorin or Isshin ryu, maybe. I'm not sure that the kobudo kata were necessarily associated with any particular karate ryu originally. Different kobudo is taught by many Okinawan ryu, and not all teach the same ones. I learned all my kobudo in Shito-ryu. I know that Isshin ryu does a lot of kobudo. Shito-ryu does tons of it. Not so much in Goju, but they do practice kobudo.

dsomers
12th August 2004, 15:56
I know that Richard Kim taught Hama Higa , as it is in his book . However , Isshin Ryu does not have Hama Higa in their syllabus . I too can't find much info on its history .

David

wsteigner
12th August 2004, 16:28
Taira Shinken Sensei Has the Hamahiga kata both
Tunfa and Sai in his Ryukyu Kobudo teachings.
Taira Sensei taught Hamahiga Tunfa to Shimabuku
Sensei founder of Isshin-Ryu But in a film they
spelled it wrong so many think it not in Isshin-ryu. Many think the Kata came from
Hamahiga Island a short drive from the main
Island now but was about 1/2 half hour by boat
in the good old days.
thank you
bill steigner

dsomers
12th August 2004, 17:43
Bill ,

Do you know anything about the Hama Higa No Nichougama , though ?

David

Gene Williams
12th August 2004, 18:50
There are Hama Higa no sai, tonfa, and kama. I am not sure if there is a Hama Higa no bo, however.

wsteigner
12th August 2004, 20:24
Only place I have found Hamahiga Kata for the Kama so far is in John Sells book Unante on page 330 and it is listed as a common Kata for Kama.
Hamahiga no Nichokama.
As Gene Williams has said, I also have not found any for the Bo/Kon while looking for any Hamahiga Kata.
thank you
bill steigner

Chris McLean
12th August 2004, 22:50
Thank you Gentelman for your educational and informative responce to our quest.

harleyt26
13th August 2004, 02:21
Hamahiga no nicho gama is not in the Tesshinkan syllibus but we do have hamahiga no sai and hamahiga no tonfa they are both sandan level kata.Kanagawa no nicho gama is Godan level and it is the only kama kata in our syllibus.You might try the Hozon Shinkokai their syllibus is similar but they do a few more kata, that could be one of theirs. Thomas Hodges

Robby Bray
14th August 2004, 14:10
Not a lot of authentic kama kata out there. Remember that the okinawans' are very shy and nonconfrontational as a society. They tend to look at the kama as a very savage weapon, as its kata represents a lot of bloody tech.


Robby Bray