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PghRonin
10th November 2000, 16:48
What is some of your opinions of the use of tessen and jutte in Aikijujutsu?

Nathan Scott
10th November 2000, 22:42
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PghRonin
11th November 2000, 00:09
Nathan Scott,
Which videos by Soke Angier were the tessen - jutte demonstrations done. I would like to get these videos.

Nathan Scott
11th November 2000, 00:15
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Richard Elias
13th November 2000, 10:16
Hi guys,

First, the scenes in the videos are very few and done for just an example. There are clips of tessen on the hojo and kenjutsu tapes and jutte on the hojo, but just in the introduction.

Obviously, in our school we do both jutte and tessen.
The tessen, though primarily a striking weapon, can be used to trap, control, or throw, and compliments the jujutsu quite nicely.
The jutte is primarily a disarming tool sometimes used in combination with a tessen or jo. I would have to disagree with you on this one though Nathan, I believe the jutte works quite well at disarming a swordsman...if used properly.

The jutte in our school is a bit uncommon. The hook is longer than most and tapers outward from the bottom, that is, it is designed to be able to accomodate swords, pole weapons, and limbs. Though some jutte were indeed only badges to show rank, some were even hollow, but others were designed to be used. Some had as many as four hooks, while some had none. Some even had chains connected to them. They were often used in groups, or with the others using weapons such as the mitsu dogu.

As far as Aiki schools that use them, I understand that Daito Ryu has a series of tessen techniques, and I believe Arashi Ryu and Kaze Arashi Ryu (not related) both have tessen in their curriculum, but other than that I don't know.

Its kinda up in the air right now, but the next video we produce may be on tessen or tessen and jutte together, since many of the techniques cross over. We just finished kenjutsu #4 on short sword.

Oh, and Nathan (if I may call you Nathan) please not Mr. Elias. Rich or Richard is fine. Mr. Elias is just too formal for me, makes me think your talking about someone else. Like my father. :)

Nathan Scott
13th November 2000, 16:51
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Walker
13th November 2000, 17:01
I believe that there is a photo sequence in the current Bugei Trading catalog featuring J. Williams using the jutte.

Richard, do the Bugei jutte approximate those you describe as used in your practice?

Kendoguy9
13th November 2000, 18:01
hello all,

I am basing this off of a list of the entire Hiden Mokuroku found on one of Kondo sensei's students websites. i can not say how acurate it is past the ikkajo section, but in the gokajo section it list a waza (or possibly group of waza) caller "jutte dori". this past weekend i had a chance to train with Kondo sensei. after a special class with him we were waiting for Mr. Goss, Kondo sensei picked up some sort of club or short stick and began swinging it in a very prescribed manner. i watched him for a min. and asked if he was doing jutte and he said yes, and that tessen could be moved in a similar fashion as well. i don't know if that means there is jutte in Daito-ryu but i5t seems Kondo sensei knows something.

gambatte!!!

PghRonin
13th November 2000, 21:10
Richard,
When will the Kenjutsu #4 video be a available? I just recently made a suggestion to Toby Threadgill and James Williams at Bugei to see if Don Angeir will be producing a tessen and jutte video. I hope that you guys decide to go ahead and produce the video.

PghRonin
13th November 2000, 21:13
What is a Hachiwari exactly? In my opinion it is just a style of jutte. Can anyone help me with this one?

Nathan Scott
13th November 2000, 21:51
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Richard A Tolson
14th November 2000, 06:26
Richard,
You are correct. Arashi-ryu does have tessenjutsu as a part of our curriculum. We have eight omote techniques which are based on our jujutsu methods and several ura techniques for dealing with opponents armed with other traditional weapons.
Nathan,
The koryu that specializes in the use of the jutte is Ikkaku-ryu. This art is now a part of the Shinto Muso-ryu curriculum. Though I would agree that I would not desire to attempt these techniques solo against a swordsman.
Perhaps the hachiwari was actually an early Samurai version of the can opener??? :)

Richard Elias
14th November 2000, 11:07
Walker-"do the Bugei jutte approximate those you describe as used in your practice?"

No, they don't. Unfortunately I haven't found any comercially available that are similar. The ones we have at the dojo my teacher had custom made.
I heard you might be at the demo in texas. Maybe I can get my teacher to let me bring one to the seminar, if not I will bring some pics of one so you can see what I'm talking about.

Tom-"When will the Kenjutsu #4 video be a available?"

Actually we just got them copied off the master last week and they should be available through bugei even now. I'm not sure how much they charge, you'll have to give them a call. We will have some with us in texas this weekend. There is a pretty good chance that the next tape we make will be on tessen/jutte. But it probably wouldn't be available til around this time next year..or so.

I have some old film of Ikkaku ryu, which also includes tessen, and some of Kaminoda Sensei performing jutte and tessen. They use the jutte and tessen together sometimes, one in each hand. The jutte is also combined with, or followed by, the application of hojojutsu. The hojojutsu of Shinto Muso Ryu comes from the Ittatsu Ryu. Though technially they are not "aiki" or "jujutsu" arts.

Incidently, I don't think it was very common for a man armed with only a jutte to go one-on-one with an armed samurai. The jutte is an arresting weapon not a killing one (not that you can't). It would be an unwise officer that went to apprehend a trained samurai without back-up. Though I think it can be done, the jutte does offer alot of leverage and control. But most officers were not bushi, and not as highly trained or skilled enough to go it alone.

So the one with the jutte captures the sword, while others entangle his sleeves and trip-up his legs. Sound reasonable?

Walker
14th November 2000, 15:27
Richard,
Iíll be there next weekend and look forward to meeting you.
Bugei announced on their BBS that Ken jutsu 4 will be available this week.

Richard A Tolson
14th November 2000, 15:38
Richard,
Could you please give us a preview of the types of techniques that are covered on Kenjutsu #4?
BTW, I have Angier Sensei's hojojutsu tape and think it is excellent!
Friends,
The 1998 BUDOSAI videotape available at Mugendo Budogu http://www.budogu.com features some of the Ikkaku-ryu jutte and tessen techniques.

Richard Elias
14th November 2000, 20:40
"Could you please give us a preview of the types of techniques that are covered on Kenjutsu #4?"

We demonstrate various blocks, draws and cuts from standing and seiza, and seiza footwork exersizes. Then the body of techniques give examples from standing and seiza, with a single attacker and two attackers. In the intro there is a couple of our basic tessen techniques.

Production value-wise, I think this is the best one that my teacher has put out. Really clear shots. It was all done on the computer, with a digital camera. As to the content and the performance of the techniques...I'll leave that to be judged by those who see it.

PghRonin
14th November 2000, 20:55
Wow,
I think I'm going to have to get all these videos, and I can't wait for the tessen/jutte video. I have a question, will we see Aiki Jujutsu videos in the future?

PghRonin
14th November 2000, 20:59
Richard,
What style or type of tessen is used in Yanagi Ryu, is it the folding style or the solid non-folding style, or a combination of both?

Richard Elias
14th November 2000, 22:04
Tom,

I don't know if there will be a jujutsu tape. My teacher's original intention with the videos was to sort of document or catalog the arts in our system that rare or seldom seen or practiced. There appears to be plenty of aikijujutsu masters out there these days, and my teacher hasn't shown much interest.

Besides, to be honest much of the art doesn't film well. I mean, it might be impressive to watch but some of the movements he uses are soo small they are hard to see, and often times what appears to be happening is not what is really happening at all. My teacher could easily fill a video with the particulars of a single technique, and you still might not get it unless you get to experience the technique first hand. The stuff really has to be felt. With the weapons it's different, if it looks like you hit him the head, chances are you hit him in the head. Besides that, much of the hand-weapon techniques are the same as the empty-hand, simply don't use a weapon and supplement a strike or throw, control, etc. for the cut. Take advantage of what presents itself during the course of the form. Many of the techniques (if not most) in our system have there origins in the weapons arts.

"What style or type of tessen is used in Yanagi Ryu, is it the folding style or the solid non-folding style, or a combination of both?"

We have trained with both. They each have their advantages, the non-folding is definately stronger but I feel the folding tessen offers more versatility. We have a number of redirections and distractions that, because they work visually, work better with the folding fan. Plus, in the summer it gets pretty hot in the dojo and the solid fan just doesn't work quite the same.

Richard A Tolson
15th November 2000, 05:34
Richard,
Thank you for the added information!

PghRonin
19th November 2000, 23:51
Richard,
How many tessen and jutte kata are there in Yanagi-Ryu?

Richard Elias
22nd November 2000, 02:46
Tom,

There are no set kata for tessen and jutte per se, but there are innumerable individual techniques. Many are derived from short sword and knife techniques, while others are unique to each weapon.

Walker
22nd November 2000, 18:56
I have seen Ken 4 and must say that Richard is being modest and not mentioning that he is the very accomplished budoka demonstrating most of the techniques on the tape.
The production is really good. Great job Rich - a real straight-to-video movie star!
Damn, I forgot to get your autograph. :smilejapa

PghRonin
25th November 2000, 18:21
So does anyone know where I can purchase good tessen, both solid and folding?

kenjgood
26th November 2000, 07:33
You can obtain a solid steel Tessen through Bugei Trading Company:

http://www.bugei.com/ushop/index.cgi?ID=ODUL2R&task=item&ItemID=IT367

I also saw the Kenjutsu 4 Tape on the shelves.

Richard Elias
26th November 2000, 09:04
Mugendo budogu carries a variety of folding tessen as well as a kassen solid iron training version.

http://www.mugendobudogu.com

I also understand that James is working on having a folding tessen made for Bugei.

PghRonin
26th November 2000, 16:28
Richard,
I was wondering if you can make a suggestion to James. I would like to see a solid tessen that accually looks like a folded fan. Maybee he can work on that to. Thanks.

PghRonin
28th November 2000, 22:11
It seems that alot of the koryu incorporate the tessen into there curriculum, but what about the jutte? What systems train in jutte? I would really like to know the systems that incorporate them both.

INFINOO
4th December 2000, 18:41
Several years ago I was able to handle a jutte that Soke Angier brought with him to Canada. It had one horn with three different opening sizes. The smallest was for a blade, the second for a staff and the third was big enough for a wrist side ways. It was the same type of jutte seen in the Tanto Jutsu tape. I noticed that the jutte bugei is selling now is different. Better or worse , who knows. Anyone interested in in the use of the jutte might want to check out a Vidio called Crossada, featuring Master at Arms James Keating. I think the tape is still availible through Palidin press. The Crossada is a large knife that has horn gaurds. Since both weapons have the ability to trap other weapons and are about the same lenght and size. I have found the skills learned with one transfer to the other . Your mileage may vary. Hope this helps
Gregory Rogalsky Director of Rogalsky Combatives International.

[Edited by INFINOO on 12-04-2000 at 01:45 PM]

PghRonin
12th December 2000, 02:26
Can anyone give me some info on Tenshin Ryu? How extensive is there Tessen Jutsu curriculum and do they teach Jutte Jutsu? Has anyone ever heard of John Hamelton? He is an instructor in my area that teaches Tenshin Ryu.

[Edited by PghRonin on 12-11-2000 at 09:28 PM]

Nathan Scott
12th December 2000, 16:55
[Post deleted by user]

PghRonin
12th December 2000, 20:53
I don't think John Hamelton has anything to do with that dojo. Has anyone ever heard of him?

What about Kaze Arashi Ryu is that a Lagit Ryu?

[Edited by PghRonin on 12-12-2000 at 04:30 PM]