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DCPan
14th December 2004, 18:09
Hmm...what do you guys think?

CEB
14th December 2004, 18:12
Useless.

Charlie Kondek
14th December 2004, 18:45
Remember how upset everyone was when Bob Dylan "went electric?"

Yeah, this is nothing like that at all. Electric bogu = bad idea.

:D

cxt
14th December 2004, 19:04
Worse than "useless"



Chris Thomas

CEB
14th December 2004, 19:13
Then again things like Ki Ken Tai were always difficult for me. If we go electric we can ditch all of that and do some serious hackage. :laugh:

CEB
14th December 2004, 19:15
That is a joke.

Earl Hartman
14th December 2004, 21:15
It was inevitable, I suppose. Anyway, that's kumdo, not kendo, right? I doubt (or I would like to doubt) that Japan would go for something like this.

DCPan
14th December 2004, 22:05
Hi Earl,

I don't know anything about it really as I can't read the Korean on the page.

I got the link from this thread:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5135

Rumor has it that this maybe the prototype of the kind of bogu that will be used should Kendo become an Olympic Event.

Currently, that kind of Bogu is used for Hae Dong Kumdo.

ulvulv
14th December 2004, 22:14
Pull the plug, pull the plug!!

R A Sosnowski
15th December 2004, 00:39
Originally posted by DCPan
Hmm...what do you guys think?
Ask the Classical Fencers what is wrong with modern Olympic Fencing. It degenerates into a game of tag -- whoever can turn the light on first.

Just say NO.

renfield_kuroda
15th December 2004, 01:10
I actually remember a tae kwon do tournament we had at UC Berkeley back in 1993, at which time similar bogu was demo'd. An electrical engineering prof. was also an instructor, so he made them. The chest protector only registered a hit when a solid, straight on kick was landed, etc.
Seemed to work ok, but when I was disucssing with one of the other instructors he said simply "I would not use it, because if I didn't see the kick or punch land, I will not score the point."

It's more severe in kendo: the strike could be perfect, but if your kiai was weak, or for whatever reason the judges feel that you did not exude the requisite presence of mind, the flags stay down.

Regards,
r e n

Sapporo Ichiban
15th December 2004, 04:14
I always liked the Olympic TKD system that no point was granted unless it was a clean solid hit. After all, you're not going to hurt anyone with a tap unless it's one of those freak shots that lands 'just so.' Besides, even if a point isn't awarded you still reap the residual benefits. Your opponent might still feel pain or, at the least, feel the weight of your kicks and become hesitant.

But I'm neutral about that system with kendo. I can see the motivation to only award skilled attacks but doesn't that 'attack' emphasis reduce the role of defense too much? With a cutting-type blade instead of a shinai, a touch might well be enough. So even though the attack might not be well coordinated, executed crisply, etc.--if it was still good enough to get through to me, should I be complaining that a point was awarded?

Even the way it is, I still find kendo very, very attractive. But it's like the limited target areas . . . arguably might be making kendo more 'sportish' than desirable? Dunno.

YagyuJubei
15th December 2004, 07:25
I think we should make kendo closer to reality not further from it. More Budo and less sport. I am not sure but I think this e-bogu will only make kendo worse.

spliffmaniac
15th December 2004, 08:25
What's to stop tsuki to the doh? The light would turn on and you wouldn't have to fret about the old left hand..?

Matt Molloy
15th December 2004, 09:06
Originally posted by ulvulv
Pull the plug, pull the plug!!

I agree, it's horrible. :eek:

Get the hammer out!

Cheers,

Matt.

Mrose
15th December 2004, 09:07
Never done Kendo, but in my first year of College I joined the Fencing club. We were all beginners in the club, but we had fun. So we decided to go to another, larger school for a competition. Of course we all lost. I didn't really care about that, it was the way we lost. The other guys who were used to the electronic scoring had all learned little "tricks" to score points. One guy would slash at me and I blocked, but he got his sword ( I think it was rapier) to bend and flick my suit. I took me a while to figure out how he was scoring because I couldn't even feel it! Systems like this just make the judges lazy, and it becomes a game of "tricks":mst: And Mr. T don't like tricks, fool!

Steven Reich
15th December 2004, 14:25
I think that what electric equipment has done to fencing can be described as akin to the raping of a child. I'd hate to see the same happen to Kendo.

But if we add electric scoring, let's do the job right (i.e. ruining Kendo) and add prosthetic grips to the shinai and make the shinai lighter so the sport is 'more exciting.'

Forget the electric scoring, it's fixing a problem that doesn't exist.

CEB
15th December 2004, 14:34
Originally posted by Sapporo Ichiban
....
But I'm neutral about that system with kendo. I can see the motivation to only award skilled attacks but doesn't that 'attack' emphasis reduce the role of defense too much? ....

That is the idea. :)

Steven Reich
15th December 2004, 14:35
You probably fenced foil. Yes, the flick is a problem, as is the windmill parry that is ubiquitous among users of the pistol grip. The problem is even worse in Saber. The saber is electrified along the entire blade (back and sides included), so you're basically just trying to touch to complete an electric circuit. Don't bother parrying, the blade can bend around and touch you, setting off the buzzer. Bluntly, sport fencing has degenerated into an athletic footwork drill with car antennae. Certainly it's athletic and the top athletes train very hard. But it's not swordsmanship.

Of course sport fencing has a few other problems (lack of etiquette, for one)...

Kendo really needs to retain its traditions and not wander away from its art.


Originally posted by Mrose
Never done Kendo, but in my first year of College I joined the Fencing club. We were all beginners in the club, but we had fun. So we decided to go to another, larger school for a competition. Of course we all lost. I didn't really care about that, it was the way we lost. The other guys who were used to the electronic scoring had all learned little "tricks" to score points. One guy would slash at me and I blocked, but he got his sword ( I think it was rapier) to bend and flick my suit. I took me a while to figure out how he was scoring because I couldn't even feel it! Systems like this just make the judges lazy, and it becomes a game of "tricks":mst: And Mr. T don't like tricks, fool!

Earl Hartman
15th December 2004, 18:38
Kendo as an Olympic event?

Heaven preserve us.

nicojo
15th December 2004, 18:57
I won't be happy unless there is dance music, glow-in-the-dark suits and steam machines. THEN Kendo will be exciting for the mass audience(lowest common denominator).

And cheerleaders.

J/k.

Someone with photoshop skills should step in here.

Steven Reich
15th December 2004, 19:50
I apologize in advance if this offends anyone...

Because YOU ASKED FOR IT!!! Here's what you can expect as the new family-oriented sport of Olympic-style Kendo:

For father:
Well, everything: skin, bright lights, violence.

For mother:
Complaining about everything above.

For children:
Bright lights, violence with good sportmanship, wholesome, scantily-clad cheerleaders.




Originally posted by nicojo
I won't be happy unless there is dance music, glow-in-the-dark suits and steam machines. THEN Kendo will be exciting for the mass audience(lowest common denominator).

And cheerleaders.

J/k.

Someone with photoshop skills should step in here.

Steven Reich
15th December 2004, 19:54
Oops, here's the image.

Again, sorry in advance if anyone is offended.

cxt
15th December 2004, 20:05
Scantly clad cheerleaders?

Hmm, maybe I was to quick to judge???

Throw in an older single malt and you may have something.


Chris Thomas

nicojo
15th December 2004, 20:09
Ha ha, nice one Mr. Reich. Quick turnaround!

I did some fencing in college as a Phys ed credit, it was a lot of fun, but there wasn't enough interest at the school to field a full-time club. I don't do kendo, never really had the opportunity, but I have a lot of respect for those who do. I think it develops some great skills; hope those don't get lost in the Olympics.

Dan Weber
15th December 2004, 20:35
No matter how advanced the electronic sensors, there is no way that they can detect correct technique, seme, zanshin or any of the other components that go into yuko datotsu or a "valid strike". Therefore you would still need judges to check for those things, which would invalidate the need for sensors. If you do not have the concept of a valid strike then you wont have kendo. You might have something else like the pic a few posts ago shows (heheh, that was great! :D ) but it definitely wouldn't be kendo.
Then again, I am a little old school in that I don't "play" kendo (I really hate that word) I practice kendo.


Dan Weber

Steven Reich
15th December 2004, 20:46
Oh, you're right, no family sporting event is really a family event until beer is involved.

Back on topic:

I agree with Dan. Kendo is as much an art as a sport. As such, there needs to be a human judging component. Sport fencing of several decades ago had this to a point. Since it was dry (i.e. not electric), a competitor needed to show clear point-in-line (except in epee as it has no right-of-way), and a touch needed to put a significant bend in the blade so that the judges could see the point. In kendo, this is emphasized even more. It's not just that you got a hit, it's that for an instant, your mind, your body, your spirit and your sword were one--you mastered yourself and defeated your opponent. How do electric sensors help with that?

Bruce Mitchell
16th December 2004, 00:13
I have to ask, what is the problem that needs to be fixed? Is the electronic gadgetry for the competitors sake, or the judges? As someone who pratices Atarashi-naginata, I could see the eletric-bogey suits coming up for us if it passes in the kendo world. Now, I often hear critism of kendo and atarashi-naginata shiai as it is, about whippy strikes that wouldn't cut and so forth. However I personally feel (digging myself a hole here) that the real problem is the shinpan who award points for these types of things. So, is the electric bogu really an attempt to make up for inadequate shinpan while sparing their feelings? Just a thought....

BCentrella
16th December 2004, 01:03
It's Breakin' 2: Electric Bogu! LOL

Actually, since we're coming up with flashy ideas, I think the super-duper electric shinai should make lightsaber noises when you swing them...

MikeWilliams
16th December 2004, 11:11
Just think of all the sponsorship decals you could fit on your bogu, too.

I think it's time the sport went professional.

Brian Owens
16th December 2004, 11:39
Originally posted by Bruce Mitchell
I have to ask, what is the problem that needs to be fixed? Is the electronic gadgetry for the competitors sake, or the judges?I'm not a kendoka, so I could be wrong here, but I suspect that the proposed introduction of electronic scoring aids (and hopefully that's what it is; an aid to judges, not a replacement of them) is to lessen the instances of teams crying "politics and favoritism" in scoring.

As I understand it, in kendo if both opponents get a clean strike the one who got in first gets the point and wins (unlike real life where they both die). So in cases where both strikes got in nearly at the same instant the computer would settle any disputes.

Obviously, over time techniques would evolve that take advantage of the rules; but that has already happened in karate, kendo, etc. It would be incumbent on the practitioners to see that the sporting side doesn't lead to the watering down of the traditional side.

Andrei Arefiev
16th December 2004, 11:44
Originally posted by Steven Reich
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?s=&postid=339152

No, this image is SO wrong in the context. What are the two guys doing in the background sitting in seiza? There's no place for them in such a kendo world.

Incidentally, we have a cheerleaders group at the school where we practice iaido and jodo (it might not sound unexpected to you, but for my country, it is), and we can't help thinking about inviting them to our events :D

Charlie Kondek
16th December 2004, 14:56
Hilarious pics, but it needs something. I know! J-idols!

Just to clarify one point: the governing body of kendo, which is Japanese, is almost unanimous in its opposition to such bs. Sometimes there's tension between Japanese kendo authorities and Koreans, the Koreans are more in favor of making changes, but not all Koreans. It'll be a cold day in hell before I ever touch a piece of electric anything in kendo. Except maybe a n electric men unstinkerizer that removes unsightly odors, that I might consider.

To clear up another point:


Originally posted by Brian Owens As I understand it, in kendo if both opponents get a clean strike the one who got in first gets the point and wins (unlike real life where they both die). So in cases where both strikes got in nearly at the same instant the computer would settle any disputes.

There's another option, my friend. What I have normally seen is that such an exchange is declared ai-uchi, "mutual kill," no point is awarded for either player, and play continues. Maybe the electric bugaloo crowd is in favor of the other option, having the computer decide. Meh!

I'm also old-skool, or as old-skool as can be, but I don't have a problem with "playing" kendo. It's just semantics, just the way kendo is translated into English by multilingual Japanese speakers. As I've pointed out in the past, they also think boxers "play boxing," and I wouldn't want a boxer to play anything on my chin.

Brian Owens
17th December 2004, 05:43
Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
...There's another option, my friend. What I have normally seen is that such an exchange is declared ai-uchi, "mutual kill," no point is awarded for either player, and play continues.
Oh, of course. I remember being told that, but didn't consider it in this case. As I said, I don't do/practice/play Kendo.

Chidokan
19th December 2004, 01:00
you need more electric bits....like a microphone for kiai, a motion detector for the forward movement, and link them all together with the touch pads. Then it would work. And kendo as we know it would no longer exist, and would develop into the mud wrestling style of judo you see nowadays. No thanks. I'd rather lose to a dodgy decision and walk off with my head high than put up with that type of rubbish.
Its about time we took away the cleaned up rules and brought back foot sweeps, strangulation with do, and winning by removing the men (with or without head still in it...):D

Daniel san
23rd December 2004, 19:47
As a spectator I find the judges to be an interesting and integral part of the sport. Like was said before an aid not a replacement.

From the stands it is sometimes hard to see who hit first. Still,I would rather not see it happen. I watch kendo BECAUSE it does not have electricity or a ball.









AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiieeeee!!!!! Run for your life! 10 foot tall cheerleaders!

chizikunbo
24th December 2004, 13:52
Thats just horrible!