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Dave Humm
9th February 2005, 04:14
Hey all !

Just wondering if anyone might be able to give me the translations of the following:

Diagonal cut to the knee - Outside (falling)
Diagonal cut to the knee - Inside (rising)

Diagonal cut to the groin - Inside (rising)

Horizontal cut through waist/abdomen

Vertical cut to center

Thanks in advance

Dave

Andy Watson
9th February 2005, 11:20
Hi Dave

Just as there are several ways to say what you want to say in English, there are quite a few in Japanese as well.

My personal interpretation would be:

Diagonal cut to the knee - Outside (falling) = Soto no hiza ni naname kirioroshi/kiriotoshi

Diagonal cut to the knee - Inside (rising) = Uchi no hiza ni kiriage

Diagonal cut to the groin - Inside (rising) = Mata kiriage

Horizontal cut through waist/abdomen = Hara/Koshi ni ichi monji giri (or yoko giri)

Vertical cut to center = Kirioroshi or Shomen uchi or Shomen giri


Hope that helps

Brian Owens
9th February 2005, 11:52
As Mr. Watson said, names can vary. Different ryu use different names for the same technique, and sometimes the same name for different techniques.

In my school we used "shorthand" for a lot of our waza, so these may not be grammatically correct "literal translations" -- but they may help you with your research:

Diagonal cut to the knee - Outside (falling) = Hiza Nanamegiri

Diagonal cut to the knee - Inside (rising) = Hiza Kiriage

Diagonal cut to the groin - Inside (rising) = Mata Kiriage

Horizontal cut through waist/abdomen = Koshi Yokogiri

Vertical cut to center = Shomengiri
(and a particular version is called Shin Chokugiri)

HTH.

Dave Humm
9th February 2005, 13:32
Thanks fellas

Appreciate your help.

glad2bhere
9th February 2005, 13:58
Just a quick question.

When folks transliterate in Japanese are you using a standard set of kanji or some grouping of hiragana and katakana? The reason that I ask is that not everyone uses the same terms all of the time and terminology seems to reflect a particular tradition or style many times. I am wondering where the variance comes in? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Brian Owens
9th February 2005, 14:32
Originally posted by glad2bhere
When folks transliterate in Japanese are you using a standard set of kanji or some grouping of hiragana and katakana?

...terminology seems to reflect a particular tradition or style many times. I am wondering where the variance comes in? Thoughts? Comments?

There are different kanji used depending on the name used; for example "kesa giri" and "naname giri" are two names that could be used for the same cut. The kanji for the two would be different, but everyone that uses "kesa giri" would use the same kanji. I hope I understood your question correctly.

Terms were chosen that reflected a particular teacher's intent. Also, since in the early days there was a certain amount of secrecy involving a ryu's methods, names may have been chosen that required having received the oral transmission to understand their meaning.

In the case of the two terms above, they are pretty straight forward. I think "naname giri" just means "diagonal cut" while "kesa giri" means "priest's robe cut" because it followed the same line as a Buddhist priest's surplice.

Sometimes names were chosen that were practical, and sometimes names were chosen that were more poetic.

glad2bhere
9th February 2005, 16:54
Thanks, Brian. You understood very well.

Currently I am working on the taxonomy for Korean sword. There are some issues that are coming up that will need to be addressed so I was curious how you folks in Japanese traditions get your heads around these things.

For instance, with Korean language, most of the time it is not a matter of "poetry". Here are some issues that come up.

A.) Need to be different.

As some may know there is no small amound of splitting in Korean traditions. Even the HAE DONG GUMDO people (which is a relatively new approach) have splintered into about 5 main groups (at my last count). Each of these groups wants to do the same thing yet differentiate what they do from others. So there might not be a reason to use a different term except to keep a clear difference from ones fellows, yes?

B.) Distain for Japanese Roots

Without being unseemly on a Japanese venue, please let me say that there is much influence back and forth across the Eastern Sea. However, political and cultural affronts of the past have caused folks to mutually exclude each other. In this way, for instance, Kendo terms might be used but only through employing the Korean rendering of the Han-ja (J. Kan-ji). There is still a strong avoidance of overtly Japanese traditions.

C.) Finally, I must report that Han-gul is foremost a phonetic "alphabet" and a new approach to standardizing comes with practically every sunrise. The Korean nation is very sensitive to being told how to use its language, on one hand, and can be very arbitrary and parochial about setting a standard of its own on the other hand. A recent criticism of Korean dictionary points up that, in the Korean language, severe deficits exist for want of a true reflection of Korean language in dictionary form as opposed to the simple transcription of say, a Japanese dictionary into Korean.

Not sure why I babbled on like this except to frame the interests that motivated my question. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce