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Dare Devil
14th June 2005, 01:00
I am legally blind. I do not see openings as easily as others, my hand-eye is not as fast (as a result I eat boxing style punches like candy). In part, this is why I prefer to grapple an opponent- I can just close my eyes and relax.

As such I don't trust myself to apply pressure point strikes in either free movement or even a clinch, I just can't be that precise. However on the ground I'm curious what most people find effective and easily accesible.

The few points I manipulate other than the joints and spine/neck would be just under the nose, just under the jaw, the back of the knees, and the arm pits (I often GnP an opponent's arm pit when he covers up and protects his head, in very short order that arm is useless ^_^). Aside from striking the colar bone, trachea, and other such unfriendly targets I don't have many PP tricks up my sleeve.

Just curious as to whether or not other people have similair troubles, and what points are worth checking out the next time I am in full mount or am working my spider-guard ^_^

Chris O'Connor IV
Pleasantly Oblivious.

Wounded Ronin
14th June 2005, 01:03
Mmm, I'm not blind (only nearsighted), but I remember my old judo instructor at the Cornell Judo club generally discouraging the use of pressure points in grappling. In his experience, they weren't very effective...not effective enough to spend much time studying, in any case.

Dare Devil
14th June 2005, 01:31
I would never count on a PP to end a fight, just maybe open up a crude head lock; anythin I can do to save myself the trouble of moving a lot, hey, I'm all for it ^_^

Chris O'Connor IV
I CAN'T SEE YOU!

Wounded Ronin
14th June 2005, 02:11
I would never count on a PP to end a fight, just maybe open up a crude head lock; anythin I can do to save myself the trouble of moving a lot, hey, I'm all for it ^_^

Chris O'Connor IV
I CAN'T SEE YOU!

Well, one thing that worked on me once which would probably be easy to do without looking was a really big judoka dragged his knuckles along the sides of my neck while he was reaching for a lapel choke.

I was lying on my belly on the ground, and he was sitting on my back. I was protecting my lapels pretty effectively. Then he said, "This is gonna hurt", and using my sweat as lube, dragged his knuckles down my carotids so he could reach in and apply the lapel choke. It was extremely painful.

And extremely funny in retrospect, heh heh.

Trevor Johnson
14th June 2005, 04:46
I'd actually start by just working pressure points slowly, the ones between tricep and bicep, ones on forearm, etc. Then start working them into grabs and such. The trick is not that you aim for a pressure point, there's lots of spots on the body that're painful to grab. The trick is to be able to use the pressure points wherever you've ended up grabbing. That just takes practice. One thing that might help is trying to train your grip so that you wiggle your thumb/fingers under the muscle. Lots of spots on the body where, if you get your fingers under muscle, there's a nerve to pinch. Also the gripping points on back and side, where just a hearty pinch-n-twist works. You might also learn how to properly pull hair, so as to be complete. Not many pressure points on the back of the head, but if there's hair, it functions just fine.

Harry Cook
14th June 2005, 17:27
Shoving your fingers into the mastoid process (just under the ear) can be an attention getter at times.
Harry Cook

Trevor Johnson
16th June 2005, 20:28
One thing I would do a lot of is training your grip strength and wrists. Carrying around the widemouthed jars filled with water is good, as are the winching exercises. (Take a dowel about 3/4 as wide as your shoulders, drill a hole halfway through, put a rope through that and knot one end. Attach the other to some weights. Now take the dowel and use both hands, held out at shoulder height, to winch the weights up by wrapping the rope around the dowel, and then back down slowly. ) You can also squeeze tennis balls (and golf balls with the fingertips, ) to develop grip strength. Many neat things can be done by gripping and twisting with your fingers dug into a weak spot.

Don't forget, if you have bad eyesight, grab and then hit. Once you've grabbed, you should know where they are and what they're doing from the tactile cues.

Rogier
17th June 2005, 07:47
Shoving your fingers into the mastoid process (just under the ear) can be an attention getter at times.
Harry Cook

Works like a charm, however for the visually disabled there's a far easier one. There's this secret technique that you're only taught at high levels, but I think I can tell you guys.

There's an area between the legs of (nearly) every male in this world, if you push down hard, grab and twist or just crush...........

But seriously, I think Harry's suggestion is a good one.

IchiRiKen1
19th June 2005, 04:26
Shoving your fingers into the mastoid process (just under the ear) can be an attention getter at times.
Harry Cook

Instead of shoving your fingers there, make a "phoenix eye fist" (the index finger is only partially bent so that the second knuckle extends out as the striking surface; the other fingers are curled as in a normal fist), and repeatedly punch the nerve that runs along the edge of the jaw. Striking into the soft, fleshy part of the mastoid process isn't quite as effective as punching into it. In training, be sure you are striking against the posterior aspect of the mandible (jaw), and not against the mastoid process (that large bump under/behind the ear), as the mastoid isn't the strongest bony proturbance in the body... It'll end up getting damaged in short order.

Alternately, if in the rear mount and attempting to get a choke onto your opponent, use said phoenix eye fist and drag the knuckle from the above mentioned point along the underside of the jawline... That'll get him to lift his head away from the pain instinctively, and "if do right, no can defense" since the pain makes you jerk your head up and back without thought...

Just some thoughts...

geordie
19th June 2005, 07:31
DAredevil
Note; from my study there are three types of pressure points, striking, rubbing and touch points. Many people apply way too much pressure in the wrong way to the wrong type of point and get dissapointing results. Pressure points are best used in combinations along a specific meridian to get the best results. They are as dangerous as portrayed and not to be played with. In your situation you should indentify how to activate multiple points with your knees feet hands and fingers at the same time. One point will give pain, two some paralysis, three unconsciousness, four shut down an internal organ (recoverable), five causes death. It would be advisable to find out as much information as you can about reviving people and the healing side of nerve points before using the dangerous side. Pressure point practice should be limited to light touch no more than 15 minutes per week or your partner will become ill.

Trevor Johnson
20th June 2005, 17:58
DAredevil
Note; from my study there are three types of pressure points, striking, rubbing and touch points. Many people apply way too much pressure in the wrong way to the wrong type of point and get dissapointing results. Pressure points are best used in combinations along a specific meridian to get the best results. They are as dangerous as portrayed and not to be played with. In your situation you should indentify how to activate multiple points with your knees feet hands and fingers at the same time. One point will give pain, two some paralysis, three unconsciousness, four shut down an internal organ (recoverable), five causes death. It would be advisable to find out as much information as you can about reviving people and the healing side of nerve points before using the dangerous side. Pressure point practice should be limited to light touch no more than 15 minutes per week or your partner will become ill.

Couple things:
1. please sign your full, true, and accurate name to all posts, it's what you agreed to when you signed up on e-budo.

2. multiple points are, hmmm, a tad impractical? For someone who can't see his opponent, he's going to be going for one at most. And pressure points aren't magic, they're extremely painful, debilitating, and such, if applied right, but going for more than one at a time seems to me to be a waste. After all, the other hand's probably going to be needed for other things, like hitting, getting a lock, blocking, etc.
Also, shutting down internal organs and such is probably mythical. I'd have to have it done to me to believe it. Multiple pressure points at the same time increase pain, yes. They're wonderful that way. But as for the shutting down organs thingie, the only ones that I can think of are lungs and heart, and those can be shut down without pressure points.

Cufaol
20th June 2005, 21:00
I've had someone's lungs shut down (open palm strike on the plexus solaris :) ), Then a guy wasn't able to use his arms for 24 h after painfull demonstration of pressure points (it wasn't me and I do not agree with this kind of practises), then I had a guy knocked unconscious by a knuckle strike between his legs, .... A well trained person should be able to shut down other organs as well I gather, after all, accupuncture works too doesn't it? (to a certain extend ofcourse)

c

Trevor Johnson
20th June 2005, 21:22
I've had someone's lungs shut down (open palm strike on the plexus solaris :) ), Then a guy wasn't able to use his arms for 24 h after painfull demonstration of pressure points (it wasn't me and I do not agree with this kind of practises), then I had a guy knocked unconscious by a knuckle strike between his legs, .... A well trained person should be able to shut down other organs as well I gather, after all, accupuncture works too doesn't it? (to a certain extend ofcourse)
c

Well, yes. Putting people into shock with a sufficiently forceful nerve strike can be done. Lungs and heart rely on muscle action, which means that when you really pound the solar plexus, you can stop the lungs, and a strike on the chest can cause shock to a weak heart, as can a strike to the carotids. That was why I said what I did above. And a guy knocked unconscious by a strike to the groin is shock and sufficient pain. You get a solid hit on my groin, I'd be down for the count too. And as for other organs, you can't really shut down function of something that doesn't rely on nerves and muscles to function, like liver, spleen, etc, without rupturing it, which isn't, I presume, what you're talking about. If you cause enough pain/shock to a nerve, you can make certain muscles weak. Funny bone, anyone?

A lot of this is shock to the nerves and the debilitating effects of pain. Pain by itself can kill. Neuralgia can sap the immune system, for one.

Part of my problem with the whole pressure point thing is the mystical cachet that it's garnered. I view it as a very practical thing, and it works in my hands as I have described above. There are groups who practice pressure points who can't replicate their techniques on anyone out of the group. This strikes me as conditioning. If I tell you that you're worthless enough times, you'll believe it. If I tell you that something's going to hurt convincingly enough, you'll feel pain when I do it. If I tell you that you'll feel dizzy and maybe pass out after a technique, and I set you up properly the first few times, you'll believe it and start to make yourself feel dizzy. The problem is, without this mental conditioning given to beginners in the group, these techniques cannot be replicated. So, are they real? In a sense, yes. Are they useful? No.

Cufaol
20th June 2005, 21:42
A sound theory indeed Mr. Johnson, I really hope you are right. Imagine if it would be effective?! It might change a lot of things in the world of MA.

Trevor Johnson
20th June 2005, 22:15
A sound theory indeed Mr. Johnson, I really hope you are right. Imagine if it would be effective?! It might change a lot of things in the world of MA.

Sorry, but could you be a widdle bit more specific as to what you're talking about in which post?

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 13:19
I'm sorry. I've taken it into account. I was talking about the following: What if pressure points would indeed have the possible effect of shutting down important body functions (kidneys etc.)? I suppose it would affect a lot of styles and also the way people fight.

Again, I apologize for my prior unspecific post yesterday mr. Johnson. Greetz, c.

Rogier
21st June 2005, 16:46
I'm sorry. I've taken it into account. I was talking about the following: What if pressure points would indeed have the possible effect of shutting down important body functions (kidneys etc.)? I suppose it would affect a lot of styles and also the way people fight.

Again, I apologize for my prior unspecific post yesterday mr. Johnson. Greetz, c.

How would that affect a lot of styles?

Trevor Johnson
21st June 2005, 17:53
Depends. Ever tried to type when you're freaking out? Tunnel vision and loss of fine motor skills make it really difficult, no? Righto. If you have to hit 3-5 specific points in order to use the pressure point skills, then I doubt that you can, under stress, actually use those skills. So whether or not they work is moot. The fact is, you could probably shut down things like the kidneys and the liver, since they have a surprising amount of nervous control. The problem is, it would require direct targeting of the spinal cord, and surgery. If you're going for the spinal cord, break the thing, already!

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 19:38
yes, well ofcourse it's probably impossible, unless, you could train until the techniques become reflexes (unconscious level).All of this is ofcourse completely hypothetical.
c.

Trevor Johnson
21st June 2005, 19:46
I don't think that even a highly trained fighter could do it, given the complete chaos that they'd be dealing with and the physiological responses going on within their own bodies.

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 19:53
correct, mr.Johnson. However, certain special forces (seals if I'm right) have a cqc-system, based on attacks and counterattacks according to the reactions of the adversary's body when they are hit. The 'students' study the nervous system and it's reactions on certain techniques (punch/kick/throw...). I don't know wether they still use it, but it's the closest thing I know to pressure points.

regards, c.

Trevor Johnson
21st June 2005, 19:58
We do that too, it's not too hard. You find movements designed to take advantage of that in various kata.

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 20:04
so, when you expand that, you could use some pressure points. Or at least I do when I can't get someone's arm bent for a certain technique, I tend to hit the nerves with my knuckles. It numbs the arm for about a second, and that's all I need. Which doesn't mean that all pressure points/techniques are usefull ofcourse. And I have to say that my little theory wasn't testd in a real life situation.(luckily perhaps.)

c.

Trevor Johnson
21st June 2005, 20:16
Oh, and one thing about the seals. Military training is not the same as karate training. It's much simpler and much more direct. We learn stuff with more nuance that the average seal simply doesn't have TIME to learn.

Cufaol
21st June 2005, 20:23
ofcourse. I'm aware of that. Sometimes I wonder...is it safe to teach people only the practical stuff, and leave out the history, the culture and the traditions?

c.

Trevor Johnson
21st June 2005, 20:30
ofcourse. I'm aware of that. Sometimes I wonder...is it safe to teach people only the practical stuff, and leave out the history, the culture and the traditions?

c.

I would prefer not to, since that leaves out the ethical matrix in which I would prefer that this stuff be embedded. The army provides one for seals: e.g. only when we tell you it's ok, but civvies have to provide their own. The law is a good start, though.

Wounded Ronin
22nd June 2005, 04:04
correct, mr.Johnson. However, certain special forces (seals if I'm right) have a cqc-system, based on attacks and counterattacks according to the reactions of the adversary's body when they are hit. The 'students' study the nervous system and it's reactions on certain techniques (punch/kick/throw...). I don't know wether they still use it, but it's the closest thing I know to pressure points.

regards, c.

You know that military units don't emphasize unarmed hand to hand combat that much, right? The kind of training that special forces personnel get in that area will even vary quite a lot, and there are many who feel that their hand to hand training was silly.

Wounded Ronin
22nd June 2005, 04:08
ofcourse. I'm aware of that. Sometimes I wonder...is it safe to teach people only the practical stuff, and leave out the history, the culture and the traditions?

c.

It's unarmed hand to hand combat. It's the last line of defense. Although you can theoretically kill someone with unarmed hand to hand combat, or break his limbs, or knock him out, it's a lot harder to do so unarmed than if you even had a rock in your hand.

It's not even like giving someone a knife and telling him that the pointy end goes in the other person. It's far less instantly destructive.

Since we're already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of destructiveness, the last thing that you need from a self defense perspective is to then water down the training futher with historically unsubstantiated stories about history and traditions which are essentially superfluous. The more superfluous static you add to unarmed training the more you're just hurting the student who will go around with a completely inflated idea of how destructive he is unarmed compared to a couple of average guys with knives. I think that your concern is totally pointed in the wrong direction.

Trevor Johnson
22nd June 2005, 04:26
Personally, I think that the history and the culture stuff is great, for civilians. The military provides its own methods of mediating violence, but we need the matrix to help us learn the ethics of using violence. Soldiers have that matrix provided for them, courtesy of military culture, law, and custom.

Rogier
22nd June 2005, 07:16
Still don't see how or why this would affect a lot of styles.

Just about every system / style does something with pressure points, it may be in completely different forms. As for using pressure points in real life situations; I've seen the Dillman stuff and it all looks nice, but it does not seem to be that useful in a stressful situation.

If you get into a grappling situation you might be able to use some of the very basic pressure points just to cause some pain and get into a certain position.

I think that Trevor's description of tunnel vision is quite accurate and applies to most situations.

ajmma12
29th June 2005, 19:41
i am a student of Professor T.A. Frazer who is one dillmans top three students you may have heard of him i do kiai jitsu jodoryu jujitsu kyusho jitsu and pressure point are very usefull on the ground not just to get in positions but also to go for K.O.s so obveously you dont what youre talking about '

Ajmma12

Trevor Johnson
29th June 2005, 20:15
i am a student of Professor T.A. Frazer who is one dillmans top three students you may have heard of him i do kiai jitsu jodoryu jujitsu kyusho jitsu and pressure point are very usefull on the ground not just to get in positions but also to go for K.O.s so obveously you dont what youre talking about '

Ajmma12

One, posts must have your full name on them, not just your screen name. You agreed to this when you signed up.

Two, welcome to E-budo! :) :)

Three, read the previous posts on the thread and then we can talk. I personally don't buy into Dillman's ideas and techniques. Pressure points are good, I use them, even on the ground, but not that way. Pain is effective at making people do things, but there're people who can ignore it. My teacher's taught me a number of these, and I use them, but I'd never depend on them to save my life. I view them as whipped cream and a cherry, they're great on good ice cream, but useless alone, and they don't do a thing for bad ice cream.
Same with pressure points. If your technique is good, the pressure point'll make it better. If you use it alone, it does nothing, and if your technique is lousy, the pressure point cannot make up for it.

Cufaol
29th June 2005, 21:46
I'm siding with mr. Johnson here. One fo our sensei is almost immune to pressure points. Last time I tried to use them, I got a real !!!-kicking...

regards. c.

Peter Nicholson
29th June 2005, 22:15
I'm siding with mr. Johnson here. One fo our sensei is almost immune to pressure points. Last time I tried to use them, I got a real !!!-kicking...

regards. c.

Have to agree there - one of the dan-grades I train with appears to either have no nerves at all, or they are buried deep enough to require drilling for...

That said, if your hands are there anyway, you might as well try it - it can add a little spice to a good technique!

IchiRiKen1
30th June 2005, 14:00
you may have heard of him

Nope.


i do kiai jitsu

So you yell at people and that knocks them out, right? Have you done this? Please, explain...


so obveously you dont what youre talking about

Actually, it has been discussed all over the internet why Dillman is probably the one who isn't quite up on what he claims... But whatever.

Wounded Ronin
1st July 2005, 03:03
i am a student of Professor T.A. Frazer who is one dillmans top three students you may have heard of him i do kiai jitsu jodoryu jujitsu kyusho jitsu and pressure point are very usefull on the ground not just to get in positions but also to go for K.O.s so obveously you dont what youre talking about '

Ajmma12

Yes, obveously.

Rogier
1st July 2005, 09:03
I do kiai jitsu jodoryu jujitsu kyusho jitsu and pressure point are very useful on the ground not just to get in positions but also to go for K.O.s so obviously you don’t know what you’re talking about '

Ajmma12

We are talking about a real life situation, not the nice grappling that happens in judo or wrestling (and similar sports). In a ground situation where your opponent is not trying to get you in an arm lock or hold, but trying to put his fist through your head, these things just won't work.

Look at things like free fights where ground fighting usually amounts to:

1. person falls down
2. opponent drops down on his chest (sitting position)
3. opponent starts "free plastic surgery" on his face

You need to start looking at situation outside the dojo or seminars. Things that work during a dojo training or seminar might not always work outside. Remember that you are training with a partner. The keyword here is partner, your partner is giving you the opportunity to train a certain technique.

If you need a simple example:

Judo exams; If the person doing the exam is asked to perform some shoulder throws his partner isn't going to fully resist, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to show the required techniques.


I am a student of Professor T.A. Frazer who is one Dillmans top three students you may have heard of him

How long have you been training with this pressure point stuff and do you train in any other arts or with any other teachers (or have you trained)? If not you can't really give a valid opinion. You need to be able to compare what you are being taught or test it in another setting then the dojo.


note:

I've made some changes to the quotes (spelling and grammar).

Troll Basher
30th July 2005, 13:04
1) Lungs and heart rely on muscle action, which means that when you really pound the solar plexus, you can stop the lungs,
2) and a strike on the chest can cause shock to a weak heart, as can a strike to the carotids.
3) Part of my problem with the whole pressure point thing is the mystical cachet that it's garnered. I view it as a very practical thing, and it works in my hands as I have described above.

1) The heart IS a muscle….for someone that works in the biology field I thought you would have known that.
2) How do you know it works on the Carotids? Have you done it before?
3) Just wondering who you trained in pressure points under…..care to drop a name?

Troll Basher
30th July 2005, 13:07
Alternately, if in the rear mount and attempting to get a choke onto your opponent, use said phoenix eye fist and drag the knuckle from the above mentioned point along the underside of the jawline... That'll get him to lift his head away from the pain instinctively, and "if do right, no can defense" since the pain makes you jerk your head up and back without thought...
Just some thoughts...

Good call.
I also like to do a ridge hand under their nose to bring the head right up and then you can dial in a pretty sweet choke. ;)

IchiRiKen1
30th July 2005, 13:15
Good call.
I also like to do a ridge hand under their nose to bring the head right up and then you can dial in a pretty sweet choke. ;)

Chufeng showed me the one I described... By "show" I mean "used on me." Except instead of just running the knuckle down, he actually punched me at the jaw hinge about 6 times first... OW!

Troll Basher
30th July 2005, 13:19
You know that military units don't emphasize unarmed hand to hand combat that much, right?

Uh…they do now. At least the ARMY does.
Recently all units are required to train in H-2H as part of their PT. I was “hired” (read asked) to teach them.

Troll Basher
30th July 2005, 13:24
i am a student of Professor T.A. Frazer who is one dillmans top three students you may have heard of him i do kiai jitsu jodoryu jujitsu kyusho jitsu and pressure point are very usefull on the ground not just to get in positions but also to go for K.O.s so obveously you dont what youre talking about '

Ajmma12

Well my teacher kicked Dillman out of his organization after going to only 6 seminars and I say Dillman’s full of crap. You wanna talk pressure points let's get it on!

Troll Basher
30th July 2005, 13:26
Chufeng showed me the one I described... By "show" I mean "used on me." Except instead of just running the knuckle down, he actually punched me at the jaw hinge about 6 times first... OW!


I don't blame him.....has has to soften you up a bit before he works on you! :)

IchiRiKen1
31st July 2005, 03:14
Uh…they do now. At least the ARMY does.
Recently all units are required to train in H-2H as part of their PT. I was “hired” (read asked) to teach them.

And I guess all those units I see in the morning around our camp doing Combatives is just a mirage... More uninformed commentary from a civilian who thinks he knows it all.

Troll Basher
31st July 2005, 08:57
And I guess all those units I see in the morning around our camp doing Combatives is just a mirage... More uninformed commentary from a civilian who thinks he knows it all.

Yes they are mirage Matt, and it's due to too much chi gong. ;)
Isn't it funny that people with no connection to the military know more than people that are in it or work for it......

paradoxbox
31st July 2005, 22:17
I wouldn't count on using pressure points to end a fight.. But I think there are a number of major pressure points that could probably help end it, and being visually impaired you can probably find them fairly easily.

Like some mentioned already, near the ear, temple, also the solarplexus is remarkable for taking the fight out of people. A quick elbow strike to that area will usually sit a person down for a while.

There's also a ring of tissue about 1 inch above the eblow on the bottom of the arm. Squeezing this extremely hard during grappling will allow you some control of the arm. Take it as more of an opportunistical thing, don't rely on it to accomplish your goal entirely.

Also some points on the side of the rib cage, jab in with a knee or just grab really hard in the area and dig in with the tip of your thumb and hope you hit it. Even if you miss the point itself, it's still painful as all hell.

Just stick with the major pressure centres and even without being able to see them, you can find them quickly as long as you know your orientation in respect to the opponents body.

RE: Kiai jutsu, some people believe it, some don't, a kiai doesn't need to 'knock a person over'. A kiai let loose into someones ear at point blank range might as well have the same effect as a flashbang grenade going off nearby, it can really be rattling if you're not expecting it. You've never experienced a good kiai if it didn't cause you some hesitation immediately afterward hearing it.

Trevor Johnson
1st August 2005, 03:41
One other one that is easy enough to find is about 45 degrees down and outside of the nipple, where the pec seems to end and the ribs begin. You can grab and dig fingers under there, or try a single-knuckle punch/dig right up in there. Hurts nicely. Grab and pull won't actually tear anything, but it will hurt.

Troll Basher
1st August 2005, 03:55
One other one that is easy enough to find is about 45 degrees down and outside of the nipple, where the pec seems to end and the ribs begin.
1) You can grab and dig fingers under there, or try a single-knuckle punch/dig right up in there. Hurts nicely. Grab and pull won't actually tear anything, but it will hurt.

1) Ummm….in a word “no”. That is an example of poor bunkai that is commonly passed around. I had people attempt that on me and it has never worked. In fact I have never seen it work on anyone…..unless they let them do it.

Trevor Johnson
1st August 2005, 07:58
RE: Kiai jutsu, some people believe it, some don't, a kiai doesn't need to 'knock a person over'. A kiai let loose into someones ear at point blank range might as well have the same effect as a flashbang grenade going off nearby, it can really be rattling if you're not expecting it. You've never experienced a good kiai if it didn't cause you some hesitation immediately afterward hearing it.

If you've read "Dueling with O'sensei," by Ellis Amdur, he mentions some of the training in kiai-jutsu that he has had in the koryu. I've also heard one of the kiais of one of the ryu he knows, this wierd wailing thing that I frankly wouldn't EVER want to hear behind me in the dark. It even beats a screech owl or the bagpipes! :D :D
The amount of training required, however, is a bit much for me in terms of practical use. It seems to involve a lot of very subtle psychological self-manipulation, for want of a better term, in order to induce a similar effect in the other person. It's not just all about the sound. Myself, I like the screech in the ear approach. Works nicely. If you can convince someone you're psycho with it, even better.

Given that this is the kyusho jutsu section, I should probably say something about them as well. One thing you might want to read instead of Dillman is the Bubishi, a book which has greatly influenced both Chinese and Okinawan martial arts. I'm assuming you've got good enough vision for reading, yes? It's got a lot of pressure points in it, both ones that are supposedly medicinal and ones that are either painful or deadly. Pat McCarthy's done an excellent translation of the Bubishi, with much background material to help with comprehension. I'd skip the medicinal points, myself, but the painful points are useful.
Another book you might want to look at is Karate-do Kyohan. It has much the same list, but may be more or less useful to you because it's a much SMALLER list and not so cluttered.

I should mention that pressure points don't always work. This is why, you may remember, I likened them to whipped cream and a cherry earlier in the thread. All they do is make good ice cream better, but if the ice cream is lousy, you're stuck. In the case of pressure points, you need a solid mechanical advantage. The pressure points may make it easier, but won't make a technique work if it otherwise would have failed.
The reasons that pressure points don't always work are several:
1. The person may not have that particular pressure point. There's one on the back that I use when grappling, in the sure and certain knowledge that I don't have it. Sometimes payback ain't! My girlfriend is missing a few in the arm.
2. They may be drunk or drugged, or just raging. If you aren't feeling pain, the pressure points won't work on you. You may feel them when the high wears off, if someone's hit you hard enough to lay a bruise there, but that's later, and just a bruise.
3. As I believe I mentioned earlier, sometimes the muscles can cover the point and protect it. Many of the pressure points I know don't work well if the person is in sanchin stance with tense muscles. One I know cannot be applied during a wrist lock because the wrist lock covers it. If you apply it before you do the lock, it works fine.
The solution to this is obvious. MOVE them! You need to try various points that you think are worthwhile, and figure out, for the repertoire that YOU find useful, when they are usable.
Sometimes, in order to get someone with a pressure point, you need to bend their body a little, or twist their arm. Sometimes you need them to straighten their arm.
There are a great many strikes worth doing when you have someone bent over or twisted, because suddenly those strikes do a lot of damage. If they stand there straight with muscles tensed, then those strikes don't work as well and they laugh at you.
What this means for pressure points is the same as it means for punching. If you get someone bent over or twisted, in the middle of the hullabaloo that is a real fight, you may not have time for the picture-perfect attack that everyone idealizes and talks about. It doesn't matter, because you now have a plethora of not-so-perfect shots that can do a lot of damage to a target that isn't so perfect itself. Go for it!

Experiment. Try various pressure points, see which ones work when, and find progressively tougher friends to try them on.
Just don't rely on them to the exclusion of all else, or you'll be sorry.

Troll Basher
1st August 2005, 08:44
1) Given that this is the kyusho jutsu section, I should probably say something about them as well. One thing you might want to read instead of Dillman is the Bubishi, a book which has greatly influenced both Chinese and Okinawan martial arts. I'm assuming you've got good enough vision for reading, yes? It's got a lot of pressure points in it, both ones that are supposedly medicinal and ones that are either painful or deadly. Pat McCarthy's done an excellent translation of the Bubishi, with much background material to help with comprehension. I'd skip the medicinal points, myself, but the painful points are useful.
Another book you might want to look at is Karate-do Kyohan. It has much the same list, but may be more or less useful to you because it's a much SMALLER list and not so cluttered.
2) I should mention that pressure points don't always work. This is why, you may remember, I likened them to whipped cream and a cherry earlier in the thread. All they do is make good ice cream better, but if the ice cream is lousy, you're stuck.
3) In the case of pressure points, you need a solid mechanical advantage. The pressure points may make it easier, but won't make a technique work if it otherwise would have failed. The reasons that pressure points don't always work are several:
A) 1. The person may not have that particular pressure point. There's one on the back that I use when grappling, in the sure and certain knowledge that I don't have it. Sometimes payback ain't! My girlfriend is missing a few in the arm.
B) As I believe I mentioned earlier, sometimes the muscles can cover the point and protect it.


1) A quick not on the Bubishi…anybody’s translation. The original book was a collection of “crib notes” that were passed from teacher to student. More than likely the teacher didn’t just say “here go read this and you will be able to understand and do kyusho techniques”. More than likely it was “hands on” instruction with the teacher explaining and possibly demonstrating techniques from it and how to heal certain injuries that occur from training. To assume that you can read such a book and have anything but an infinitesimal knowledge of kyusho is absurd and immature.
2) I have noticed that people that say this are usually the people that are poorly trained and trying to apply them in the wrong situations. For example I would not try to do a mawashigeri to the head if I was standing in a crowded place. Doesn’t make sense to do it because the situation warrants a different response.
3) Can you explain to the people on E-Budo how long and from whom you have trained pressure points/kyusho with and in what possible way are you qualified to coach others on the subject?


A) Uhhh you are talking about a subject that I happen to be trained and licensed in…..everyone has the same number of points.
B) Again I ask where and how long you have trained with an expert in pressure points/kyusho?

Maddog Mitchell
1st August 2005, 13:25
Robert,

What is Oyata Senseis take on using PP on someone who is intoxicated or on something? This is not a joke it is a serious question. Has he said anything as to whether to try and do them or to go with something different?

Additionally what works on someone who is relaxed and expecting a shot doesn't neccesarily work on the opponent who's angry and expecting a confrontation. I'm not saying it can't work but I believe it is much harder. Hence a big portion of fighting IMO is strategy and tactics. Someone expecting a fight can be swayed to let their guard down and Bing, Bang, Boom get nailed. There are other factors but wanted to get your take on them.


Mike Mitchell

Troll Basher
1st August 2005, 14:07
Robert,

1) What is Oyata Senseis take on using PP on someone who is intoxicated or on something? This is not a joke it is a serious question. Has he said anything as to whether to try and do them or to go with something different?
2) Additionally what works on someone who is relaxed and expecting a shot doesn't neccesarily work on the opponent who's angry and expecting a confrontation. I'm not saying it can't work but I believe it is much harder. Hence a big portion of fighting IMO is strategy and tactics.
3) Someone expecting a fight can be swayed to let their guard down and Bing, Bang, Boom get nailed. There are other factors but wanted to get your take on them.
Mike Mitchell

1) I don’t know. I’ll go get drunk and ask him. ;) Seriously, his advice is stay away from those kinds of people. I don’t think I have ever heard him comment on whether PP techniques work on drunk people. Personally I never have a plan of attack since I don’t know what they are going to do. If I guess one thing and they do something else….I’m screwed. If I think OK, I am going to do this PP on his torso and the guy bends over to tackle me I am SOL. Most likely I would probably use tuite on them if possible since it’s an easier way to control someone. If you know where one of there arms is that’s one less thing to worry about right….
2) There are couple of benefits to someone who is angry. For one they can’t think straight, and another people that are angry don’t move as well. People ( the defender) should stay calm and use those two things to their advantage.
3) That kind of relates to what I said above. Keep calm, look for potential openings because they are not thinking straight. Sometimes I will go on to one of those websites that have all those videos of crashes and people getting in fights. I look at the fight mpegs and try and look for clues to find out what starts the physical violence and how I might handle it if faced with the same problem and what I might do different.

Maddog Mitchell
2nd August 2005, 11:06
Robert,

I'd be interested on his take other than the obvious of trying to stay away.

I can tell you from first hand experience that some don't work at all including grappling/tegumi and tuite against a person on something. Hell just recently we experienced one guy who was tazzered and didn't go down and continue to walk towards the Police Officers. Another guy was 6'9 and 300lbs he was tazzered 3 times and still was fighting. Flashlight to the head ended that one. That's Bouncer Tuite :)

Good posts! I found that strangulation techniques work better atleast for me.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

Troll Basher
2nd August 2005, 11:34
Robert,

1) I'd be interested on his take other than the obvious of trying to stay away.
2) I can tell you from first hand experience that some don't work at all including grappling/tegumi and tuite against a person on something.
3) Hell just recently we experienced one guy who was tazzered and didn't go down and continue to walk towards the Police Officers. Another guy was 6'9 and 300lbs he was tazzered 3 times and still was fighting. Flashlight to the head ended that one. That's Bouncer Tuite :)

Good posts! I found that strangulation techniques work better atleast for me.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell


Mike,

1) To be honest I haven’t ever heard him comment on using PP on someone under the influence of something. Like I said before, PPs have a time and a place so if you have experience with someone that is so out of it they feel nothing then PPs would most likely no be an option.
2) Yes I had some experience with that situation as well. I thought I was going to break the guy in half....he eventually calmed down enough that I could let him go.
3) 6'9 and 300lbs is a big boy. What the hell was he on a “roid-pcp-crystalmeth” cocktail? What did you use one of those big 25 battery long Mag Lites?

Maddog Mitchell
2nd August 2005, 17:26
Robert,

I realize he's never commented on them before, but I'm sure he raised a little hell back in his day, just curious if he had a story or two.

These big guys are scarry sometimes, add steroids, alcohol and some are on cocaine and you've got trouble.

Thanks for the replies!

Mike Mitchell


PS It was the Butt end of a maglite via a hammerfist strike :)

gabro
3rd August 2005, 16:06
RE: Kiai jutsu, some people believe it, some don't, a kiai doesn't need to 'knock a person over'. A kiai let loose into someones ear at point blank range might as well have the same effect as a flashbang grenade going off nearby, it can really be rattling if you're not expecting it. You've never experienced a good kiai if it didn't cause you some hesitation immediately afterward hearing it.

In a way, Kendo relies on kiai Jutsu. You can break someones posture by your kiai (or at least my sensei can break mine by his) enough to get in a cut. I hadn't actually considered this before now.

Cheers,

Mads

Trevor Johnson
3rd August 2005, 18:30
In a way, Kendo relies on kiai Jutsu. You can break someones posture by your kiai (or at least my sensei can break mine by his) enough to get in a cut. I hadn't actually considered this before now.

Cheers,

Mads

Works in all sorts of situations. I've used it, and had it used on me. Know one 7th kyu who, a few days ago, got attacked by a Russian pimp. Not a knife-competent one, luckily. What saved her was her repeated furious screaming. Flustered him so much he couldn't subdue her before she broke free. Cops met her at the end of the alley, having heard the screams, and the pimp's now in police custody. She's looking forward to the prosecution.