PDA

View Full Version : Toyama and Kanegawa no Nichogama (Sho/Dai?)



tgall
15th July 2005, 13:59
Hello,

i ve got some questions about Toyama (Tozan) and Kanegawa no Nichogama (Sho/Dai). This Kanegawa no Nichogama was teach from Shinken Taira to his Students. Does anybody know how it comes that in the Taira - Inoue Line now exist two Katas of Kanegawa the Sho and Dai Version, and in the Taira - Akamine Line just the one kata?

I' ve seen the Kanegawa no Nichogama in the Kama book of Demura and I' ll know the Kanegawa no Nichogama Sho from the Inoue book, and for me they don't look similair. How close is the Version of Demura to the original from Taira, I' ll know Demura was a student of Sakagami.

Does anybody know something about the history about Toyama and Kanegawa no Nichogama?
I had heard a few times, that Toyama should be a japaness Kata or was in this case just the changing of the name to Tozan meant to be japaness?

Thanks for your help

Sincerly

Thomas Gall

TimJurgens
18th July 2005, 06:30
Not sure if this helps but Toyama or Tozan are readings of the name of a location in western Japan (mainland). If you make a trip to Korea there is an airport there that has hops to the Pusan area.

I train in Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinko Kai with some other instructors here in the Tokyo area and get down to the Hombu in Tomigusuku as often as possible. In fact I was there this last week. We only do the one kata as you mentioned and I am working on that kata at present as part of our 4th Dan set.

Regards,

Tim Jurgens

tgall
18th July 2005, 16:51
Hello Tim,

could you compare the version of Kanegawa no Nichogama you learn at the Hombu Dojo, with the Version Demura?

Thanks

Thom

TimJurgens
23rd July 2005, 04:39
I am sorry but I have no idea about Demura Sensei's publications or teachings having never bought or looked at any.

The version taught at the Hombu has 4 passes in an H pattern with one legged transisions at all but the last transition. It uses a block and puncturing movement in the first pass, a block in the second pass, a block and a reverse slash in the third pass, and a block a hook into the neck or shoulder area and a slash in the fourth pass.

The only other Kama Kata I have any experience with was one that I learned from Kise Sensei. The two have some common elements but of course the embusen is different and the sense of energy in the techniques is different. The Hombu for RKHSK puts a lot of emphasis on focus in the techniques. Inoue Sensei seems to teach the same katas with less kime but with more "rapid fire" timing.

tgall
8th August 2005, 21:38
Hello Tim,

I' ve compared the version of Demura with the version of Kanegawa no Dai in the 1st kata book of Inoue, which i just get a few days before. They are nearly the same, in the and the differ a little bit.
I'm adding 4 pages out of the book, your descrpition sound similair like the pictures, but i ll think you could compare it better with the pictures if u see them.


Thomas

Shikiyanaka
11th August 2005, 20:53
[...] version of Kanegawa no Dai in the 1st kata book of Inoue, which i just get a few days before.

Thomas, I'am glad that you were able to get a copy of the book; I first thought it was a scan of the three volumes I lend you in Klatovy last year.

There is a course in Belgium, 23.-24. August 2005, with Inoue Kish˘ (the person doing the kata in the book). He is current headmaster of Ryűkyű Kobujutsu Hozon Shink˘kai and you would be able to ask him about the Kata and compare it with the Kanegawa Kata you developed from the book:

Inoue in Belgium (http://www.elhatri.nl/docs/kobudo_antwerpen_seminar_inoue_2005.pdf)

I think, Enzio will also be there.

You can also ask him if the one legged transition is alright; I really don't know if my translation of the text was correct. What does Tamyose Sensei say to your Kanegawa Kata? Did you show him? Didn't he teach the Kata to his master students in Klatovy?

tgall
5th September 2005, 09:48
Hello Andreas,

i hadn't been at the Seminar with Tamayose Sensei. I' ve been the week later there with Shihan Oshiro, so i don't know what Tamayose had taught there.

Thomas Gall

Pavel Dolgachov
5th September 2005, 12:49
Tamayose taught two trainings per day. Every first morning training was dedicated to bo kihon (one our) and bo-jutsu and tekko-jutsu kata. Second trainings were dedicated to (all together):
- tekko-no kihon
- Maezato-no tekko
- Shushi-no kon sho
- Shushi-no kon dai
- Sakugawa-no kon sho
- Sai-no kihon
- Chatan Yara-no sai
- Tsuken Shitahaku-no sai
- Nunchaku-no kihon
- Maezato-no nunchaku
- Akamine-no nunchaku

Frank Pelny and his student and some other people also practised Hama Higa-no tunfa, Hama Higa-no sai and Sakugawa-no kun dai. There wasn't any kama kata.

Shikiyanaka
7th September 2005, 16:11
Great program. I only met Tamayose Sensei once and I met a fantastic person, a sensitive teacher with much appreciation and an excellent technician; and at times has a good humor, too.

I have only twice trained in Tsukenshitahaku, which - as you may agree - is far from enough. So I'll leave it until some day. I however train in the other mentioned Kata as well, and also B˘ Kihon, but the other other Kihon are unknown to me.

My Hamahiga no Tunfa is not so good, but maybe has some distant similarities with what is taught by those experts. Pavel, take and look and tell me if you recognize it:
Hama Higa no Tunfa including wobbler caused by molehill (http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/video/Hamahiga.wmv) ~47 MB

Pavel Dolgachov
8th September 2005, 06:53
As I already wrote to you, my PC have a filter. If you change .wmv to .pdf I will receive a possibility to download it.

Shikiyanaka
8th September 2005, 16:28
Sorry, yes I remember. I will burn a CD for you. Please PM me your postal adress.

TimJurgens
8th October 2005, 11:51
Gents,

OK Toyama or Tozan is part of our set, I am just too low on the level of pond scum to have learned it yet.

For the pages you have scanned in I guess the biggest difference may be in the angle that the Kama are being heald but that is hard to tell from a book.

Perhaps I should wander over to Shibuya and watch a few training sessions of Inoue Sensei's and ask him the difference. The one time I visited however the impression I had was that everything was correct but different if that makes sense. Main feeling was that they were moving for speed and less snap where we tend to move not as quickly from one technique to the next but each technique should really explode with focus. Seemed like two good ways for the same result.

The way that the Bo is used when doing the shomen uchi was one of the biggest differences.

Sanseru
9th October 2005, 04:41
Hi Tim:

Well, since you and I are virtual cousins in terms of lineage - I thought I would put in my two yens worth. Tozan / Toyama has a lot of similarities to Kanegawa, but are not the same form IMHO. At least not when looking at Inoue's "Ancient Martial Arts of the Ryukyu Islands" Vol. 2.

At least in that text, the section on Tozan shows a couple of differences. For example:
1. No cuts only parries in the opening segment
2. Dropping down to one knee for the morote gedan uke
etc.

I had a really good chat with Inoue Kisho at the 2001 Ko-ryu Enbu Taikai in Hiroshima - mostly about history and what not. I would agree that the Inoue lineage kobudo is different to its Okinawan brother - mostly in the area of body mechanics. Just not my cup of ocha. One thing that has always impresed though, was the way their curriculum was organized an the two-person sets that they have. In general, it produces very competent students.

As for learning Kanegawa no Nicho Gama - its a yon dan kata on our food chain :)

Kindest regards,

Mario McKenna
Vancouver, BC

dsomers
9th October 2005, 09:13
Mario ,

Have you ever seen the Kata , Hama Higa No Nichou gama ? I have a friend of mine that was working w/ me on it , & is also pictured in Richard Kim's book ,as well . It follows pretty much the same embusen , as Tozan w/ the exception , it does not drop down on the knee , as well . Nakamoto Sensei told me he teaches it , but I dont not see it listed in the syllabus , nor Tozan/Toyama for that matter . The only Kama Kata I seen them do last year was Kanegawa though .

David

Sanseru
9th October 2005, 17:04
Hi David:

Can't say that I have ever seen Hamahiga no Nicho Gama. I'm not surprised that Nakamoto sensei teaches it and that it is not on his official curriculum. He really did a lot of cross training with a lot of weapons teachers.

As for Tozan, I have only seen the Inoue group list it on their curriculum. All of Taira's Okinawa students only list Kanegawa. Just like Inoue also includes a Sakugawa no kon chu and a few sho / dai version of other forms which the other Taira students do not. And Inoue was adament that all these forms came from Taira.

Cheers,

Mario

Gibukai
10th October 2005, 12:15
Hello,

that Sakugawa no Kon Chu came from S. Taira seems to be only consequent, since he mentioned that this kata has 3 levels as early as in 1938 (as you probably know already). What surprises me, is that the Okinawan students of S. Taira do not practise the Chu version. So are the group of M. Inoue and Shotokan the only ones which have it in their curriculum?

Regards,

Henning Wittwer

tgall
10th October 2005, 13:00
Hello Tim,

the 4 pages I had scanned belong to the Kanegawa no Nichogama Dai in the Inoue version.


Gents,
OK Toyama or Tozan is part of our set, I am just too low on the level of pond scum to have learned it yet.

For the pages you have scanned in I guess the biggest difference may be in the angle that the Kama are being heald but that is hard to tell from a book.


Would it be possible to compare these parts with the Akamane Linage?



Has anybody else more Infomation about Hamahiga no Kama? The only source I found was at Richard Kim's Kobudo Vol 2. In the other schools that goes back to Taira Shinken there had never been something written about it.


As for Tozan, I have only seen the Inoue group list it on their curriculum. All of Taira's Okinawa students only list Kanegawa. Just like Inoue also includes a Sakugawa no kon chu and a few sho / dai version of other forms which the other Taira students do not. And Inoue was adament that all these forms came from Taira.

On the old homepage of the Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai was Toyama no Nichogama listed as an official kata. At the Ryukyu Kobudo Tesshinkan it isn't teached.

Sincerly

Thomas Gall

TimJurgens
16th October 2005, 08:07
As for learning Kanegawa no Nicho Gama - its a yon dan kata on our food chain :)


Vancouver, BC

Yes ours too.

Kanegawa no Nichogama
Kugusuku (Kojo) no Sai
Yonegawa (Yuniga no Kun) no Kon

That is the set we do for testing. I have them down but strive to get better.

TimJurgens
16th October 2005, 08:12
On the old homepage of the Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai was Toyama no Nichogama listed as an official kata. At the Ryukyu Kobudo Tesshinkan it isn't teached.



I believe that Tameose Sensei knows the kata, I would be a little surprised if he did not as it was taught in the Hozon Shinko Kai Hombu when he was one of the association's directors. For the Hombu it is still there but not part of testing kata so it is kind of like an elective. For updates on our kata set please see www.ryukyu-kobudo.com I think that Emile has the navagation bars working well know and we have some good info on the different Kata there.

harleyt26
24th October 2005, 02:01
Hello Jurgens sensei,I wish we had had time to meet you in Tokyo a couple of weeks ago but it just was not possible.Tamayose sensei does know Toyama no nichogama but does not require it in the Tesshinkan sylabus,Shapland sensei has demonstrated it for us though.About the kata you mentioned,Kugusuku no sai,would that be the one with the throw to the floor in it?Tamayose sensei told me he has practiced the sai throw 31,000 times this year alone.He demonstrated a throw for us,it penetrated a 2 inch piece of oak and stuck into the dojo floor below it.Afterwards we noticed many other holes in the floor.Well back to my kihon practice. Tom Hodges

TimJurgens
29th October 2005, 05:23
It will be a long time before I would feel comfortable being called Sensei.

Kojo no sai (in Japanese) and Kugusuku no sai (in Okinawan Dialect) is the kata with 3 sai where 1 is thrown.