PDA

View Full Version : Custom Samurai Clothing



redsuntradition
13th September 2005, 22:23
Custom made Samurai clothing, Hakama, kimono, kataginu, kamishimo, Juban, Obi's and more.

www.redsuntraditions.net

__________________________
Kay Wadley

Mitch Saret
20th September 2005, 17:01
Your products look nice and appear to be of good quality. My question is why do you have so many pictures of people wearing them inappropriately? Kataginu with modern day uniforms, kataginu with the ends sticking out from under a rank belt, not to mention that the kataginu had been banned by the emporer. Not that we are bound by the emporer, but don't you think that the product would be shown better if worn properly?

nicojo
21st September 2005, 19:14
Here's an honest question: What exactly are the differences between kataginu, kamishimo, and hoi? I had thought Kamishimo was reserved for important folk in important meetings in edo-period, though they are modified from much earlier (heian) apparal. And that Hoi are really used by Shorinji Kempo yudansha, certain monks and that's it. So what are the circumstances and context in which one would wear kataginu?

Where're our resident dojo GQ advisors? :p

Thanks,

Mukeido
22nd September 2005, 02:34
From your site Kay:


A Kimishimo is a piece of Samurai Clothing that has two parts. Kataginu top part, Hakama bottom part

Actually that's a KAMISHIMO. Kamishimo is also called kataginu bakama for obvious reasons. Kataginu is NEVER worn without hakama, remember that it evolved from the suo. Are your kataginu pleated?

Funny that everything on the site has its Japanese term except "leggings," do you mean kyahan?


What exactly are the differences between kataginu, kamishimo, and hoi? I had thought Kamishimo was reserved for important folk in important meetings in edo-period, though they are modified from much earlier (heian) apparal. And that Hoi are really used by Shorinji Kempo yudansha, certain monks and that's it. So what are the circumstances and context in which one would wear kataginu?

The hoi is distinctive of Shorinji kempo. Similar at first glance to the motsuke koromo, but with less pleating. Hoi also have himo inside the sleeves in order to tie them out of the way. Kataginu (or more correctly, kamishimo as it is worn together with hakama) were worn by high ranking samurai of the third rank and up during the Edo period when at formal occasions. There would be no reason for budo practitioners today to wear them except to look, er "funky."

Even in koryu samurai schools in Japan they are only worn for dramatisation and historical emphasis. Unless your ryu has a definate link to a samurai tradition you would simply be playing dress-ups!

Brian Owens
22nd September 2005, 05:34
...Wordrobe into a Wordrobe with style doesn't have to be difficutt.

We will gladly past your picture in one of Our Kataginues, Kimishimo or Hakamas
"Wordrobe"?

"Difficutt"?

"Kataginues"?

"Kimishimo"? (At least they didn't try improperly to pluralize kamishimo by adding an s or es.)

And what is meant by "...past your picture..."? Something to do with time travel?

Sorry to be harsh, but I always have a hard time trusting the quality of products or level of service from companies who can't even bother to have correct spelling and terminology in their advertising.

As for actually wearing kataginubakama/kamishimo, there are a number of Web sites in Japan selling them, and I sometimes see them on late-night TV shows from Japan of the comedy variety (in some truly hideous color/pattern combinations), but only rarely do I see serious Budoka wearing them, and then only on very formal occasions or during Edo period re-enactments. In a Noh drama or kabuki, during kenbu, that's all fine; but wearing half the outfit over a dogi in the dojo? No thank you.

Lastly, a proper kataginu should, I think, be quite stiff and well pleated. If one wants a haori he should wear a haori.

http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/shop/image/kamishimo-9682.jpg

Brian Owens
22nd September 2005, 05:56
...Kataginu (or more correctly, kamishimo as it is worn together with hakama)...
I could be wrong, of course, but my understanding is that "kamishimo" refers specifically to kataginu & hakama of matching material, and that if mixed they would be referred to as "kataginu and hakama."


If one wants a haori he should wear a haori.
Oops. I meant jinbaori, not haori. A haori doesn't look anything like a kataginu.

Mukeido
22nd September 2005, 07:06
Hi Brian,


I could be wrong, of course, but my understanding is that "kamishimo" refers specifically to kataginu & hakama of matching material, and that if mixed they would be referred to as "kataginu and hakama."

Actually, if the materials are of a different texture/design/colour the set is a tsugi-kamishimo. Kamishimo refers to the SET of kataginu and kamishimo.

A haori would be suitable, if for example one wore hakama and kimono/montsuki. A jimbaori is supposed to be worn over yoroi. In some block prints it can be seen however that daimyo sometimes wore jimbaori over kosode, but this was an exception. A dobuku would be acceptable also as it was commonly worn over kosode and suo.

Back to kamishimo, it should be worn over noshime, or katairo.

Brian Owens
22nd September 2005, 10:08
...Actually, if the materials are of a different texture/design/colour the set is a tsugi-kamishimo. Kamishimo refers to the SET of kataginu and kamishimo.
I assume you meant "SET of kataginu and hakama."

Yes, but if they are different materials, would they be considered a "set," or would they just be a kataginu and a hakama? Slacks and a blazer aren't "a suit." The terminology can get confusing. I've not heard the term tsugi-kamishimo before; only kamishimo and kataginubakama.

Even Japanese sources can get it wrong. In The book of Kimono: The Complete Guide to Style and Wear, author Yamanka Norio wrote, "During this period the samurai altered the kataginu, a sleevless upper garment favored by the working classes during the Muromachi and Momoyama periods, and incorporated it into their costume. Now known as the kamishimo, it was worn over the kimono and was combined with the hakama to complete the attire for high ranking samurai. ...This combination of kimono, kamishimo, and hakama was later adopted by scholars and men of wealth." [Emphasis added.] So he considers the kamishimo to be only the upper garment, which seems odd to me since, to my understanding, "kamishimo" means "upper and lower."

Re my comment about jinbaori, I wasn't refering to the appropriateness of wearing one, only that the kataginu sold on the site in question didn't always appear to have the structure and form of good kataginu; in some photos they were following the line of the shoulder, drooping, etc. Thus my tongue-in-cheek comment that "If one wants a [jinbaori] he should wear a [jinbaori]."

Anyway, thanks for the extra info. "The day we stop learning is the day we start dying."

Mukeido
22nd September 2005, 11:16
I assume you meant "SET of kataginu and hakama."

Yes of course, typo there.


Yes, but if they are different materials, would they be considered a "set," or would they just be a kataginu and a hakama? Slacks and a blazer aren't "a suit." The terminology can get confusing. I've not heard the term tsugi-kamishimo before; only kamishimo and kataginubakama.

Even if different materials are used, it is still a SET - and therefore referred to as tsugi-kamishimo. It was sometimes common to have a patterned hakama and a straight single-coloured kataginu - this is a tsugi-kamishimo. Traditionally kataginu are made of hemp, but hakama can be of any other material in a matching colour (or even a different colour).


Even Japanese sources can get it wrong. In The book of Kimono: The Complete Guide to Style and Wear, author Yamanka Norio wrote, "During this period the samurai altered the kataginu, a sleevless upper garment favored by the working classes during the Muromachi and Momoyama periods, and incorporated it into their costume. Now known as the kamishimo, it was worn over the kimono and was combined with the hakama to complete the attire for high ranking samurai. ...This combination of kimono, kamishimo, and hakama was later adopted by scholars and men of wealth." [Emphasis added.] So he considers the kamishimo to be only the upper garment, which seems odd to me since, to my understanding, "kamishimo" means "upper and lower."

Yes, Japanese can get it wrong too, especially when in translation into English books. Kamishimo refers to BOTH the hakama and kataginu in SET. Although a hakama can of course be worn without a kataginu, a kataginu CAN NOT be worn without a hakama.

The "sleeveless upper garment favoured by the working classes during the Muromachi and Momoyama periods" Yamanaka refers to was NOT a kataginu but rather a suo. The term kataginu refers specifically to the stiff "winged" and pleated top that is only worn with hakama.

jest
23rd September 2005, 14:27
Sorry to be harsh, but I always have a hard time trusting the quality of products or level of service from companies who can't even bother to have correct spelling and terminology in their advertising.


Completely unrelated to budo, but I agree; in the past year I've sent two emails to Bang & Olufsen regarding ads they ran in National Geographic magazine.

One mentioned a "cd breaking system" and another had the typical it's/its error. If I recall both used the slogan "Close to Perfection", which amused me greatly.

The ingrates didn't send me any free equipment though. :(

Brian Owens
23rd September 2005, 22:26
...One mentioned a "cd breaking system" ...
I have a neighbor who loves playing his car stereo at full volume while washing it in his driveway, working on it, etc. He likes "Hip Hop" music.

I'd love to give him a CD breaking system! :D

David T Anderson
25th September 2005, 14:41
Congratulations on your site and new business. I'll be watching to see how your product line develops...I would be particularly interested in short [mid thigh-length] kimono-style tops to be worn under hakama for dojo practice.

Please note that your site is heavily littered with typos and misspellings...as mentioned by others, this takes away from the impression you want to make as a serious, professional business.

I also note that the pictures on your site are both very small and load very slowly. Since details are important in custom clothing, you might want to address this... Good luck.

redsuntradition
1st October 2005, 22:50
Thank you for pointing out the spelling. The eyes go with age.

With all my years of training in the arts, this is what I can give back to the martial arts community.
Every garment I produce is with love, craftsmanship, and dedication to the arts.
After years of searching for good quality Japanese type products, my son's asked me to make them custom clothing for their dojo's. These garments are much higher quality than products sold for alot more money. The materials are heavy and do not stain or hold lint. The hakama and katiginu are of a traditional patteren not availible any where else in America. These are very old patterns with modern more durable materials.

I am offering these products to the public because they can not be found in this quality or traditional pattern.

David e-mail me and I will set you up with the best Kimono you have ever worn.

Lillian Kay Wadley

RonH
4th November 2005, 05:58
After seeing this thread I ordered a kimono from Red Sun Traditions. They were very accomodating, have great communication, gave me a lot of options and sent out my custom made kimono in just a couple of days. It is simple and very nicely done. I showed it to my teacher tonight and he wants one too!

Brian Owens
11th November 2005, 09:24
...I also note that the pictures on your site are both very small and load very slowly. Since details are important in custom clothing, you might want to address this...
Two pictures that were on the site, but are now gone, displayed very fast; the pictures of the haori and jinbaori. The quality of the photos was also excellent.

That's because they weren't pictures of Red Sun's garments, but of Bujin Design's.

The reason they were displayed so fast is because Red Sun was linking directly to Bujin's site, stealing their bandwidth.

Truth in advertising was not displayed.

RonH
14th November 2005, 20:34
Well I now have a second kimono from Red Sun and am very happy with their product and service. I always wondered why some of the iai tops with kimono sleeves cost $180 or more. These are 1/3 the cost and you get them custom made to your specifications.

Can't speak for any of their other products, but the kimonos are great.