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E.elemental
12th October 2005, 23:01
A thread dedicated to questions related to the sand/water/dirt-flipping movement used in Ryukyu Kobudo. :)

My question is that the movent does exist in as various Katas as in Koryu No Kon, Sueyoshi and of course Sunakakke No Kon. All of these Katas is as I understand done with bo. Mayby a silly question, but why do they have this when sand and water flipping is so difficult to perform with the staff? An Eku I understand, but a bo? Or is the Katas just intended to teach as the movement but not using a bo if we actually were to do it?

Kind regards

Sanseru
12th October 2005, 23:25
Hello:

This technique was NOT explained to me as "sand flipping" when employing it with a bo (as was the case when I learned the Eku kata - Tsuken Sunakake no kon).

I first encountered this technique when I learned Shirataru no kon where it was explained to me as a strike to the groin or jaw. Raising the leg up and then dropping it while performing the strike greatly increases its effectiveness.

Cheers,

Mario McKenna
Vancouver, BC

twayman
12th October 2005, 23:43
I have heard the same thing? and wondered the same thing? But, it was further explained about the same as what Mario posted. IMHO with that said the eku would make more sense because of the flat paddle, but you could in theory flip sand (water I dont see it) using a bo to hide a strike. Would not work to well on grass, rocky ground or the street.

E.elemental
12th October 2005, 23:58
With only to answers in yet I have already learned a great deal. Thanks both of you! :) But what does the word "Sunakkake" mean? Just "flip"? And is Tsuken Sunakakke No kon the same as just Sunakkake No Kon?

Mario: If I understood you right the Tsuken Sunakake no kon is performed with an Eku?

twayman
13th October 2005, 00:17
Patrik,

Looks like, by this definition, to mean sweeping.

From the Japanese Karate Federaton:
Sukuiage Sunakake [C] (Sweeping) Can be done as a line drill. Must switch lead hand by bringing Bo tip back to anchor shoulder while moving in.
1. Grasp your Bo with Jun-Nigiri, right hand uppermost. Assume right Zenkutsu Dachi.
2. Scoop low moving the tip of your Bo from outside to inside to outside.

I have been told that most if not all bo kata can be performed with the Eku, although I have never really looked into it, personally I can see how they could be interchangeable.

Now you have my curiosity up Ill do some looking around and see what can be found.

Sanseru
13th October 2005, 03:31
Hi Patrik:

To answer your question:

1. Tsuken (Japanese) / Chikin (Okinawa Hogen) = Island off of Okinawa
2. Suna (Japanese) = sand
3. kake(ru) (Japanese) = hang, cover, etc.

Tsuken Sunakake no kon is the Eku kata taught in Taira lineage kobudo. Despite, the appearance of 'kon' in the name of the kata, it is always performed with an oar.

Hope this helps.

Mario McKenna
Vancouver, BC

E.elemental
13th October 2005, 11:53
Hi Patrik:

To answer your question:

1. Tsuken (Japanese) / Chikin (Okinawa Hogen) = Island off of Okinawa
2. Suna (Japanese) = sand
3. kake(ru) (Japanese) = hang, cover, etc.

Tsuken Sunakake no kon is the Eku kata taught in Taira lineage kobudo. Despite, the appearance of 'kon' in the name of the kata, it is always performed with an oar.

Hope this helps.

Mario McKenna
Vancouver, BC

Mario: Thank you! You see I saw a video of George Alexander doing Sunakakke No Kon (one of his tapes, Bo Fighting Vol II) with a bo and explaining the movement as sand flipping. Therefore I wondered why it was done with a bo as he shows. And I was under the misconception that the movement in Sueyoshi also were flipping of sand, but now I know better. Well everything has gotten me a bit confused, I belong to The Taira lineage but I havent seen the Kata yet, I think its only taught to students more advanced then I am.

Others: Note that I am not interested in starting a discussion about Geroge Alexander, this forum has plenty of much material of him. I understand that some like him and some dont, but I consider that off-topic here. But if anyone objectively can explain his way of doing it I will more then gladly listen. :)

Sanseru
13th October 2005, 15:59
Hello Patrik:

Glad to be of help. You're right that Eku is fairly advanced. My teacher, Minowa sensei, taught it at yon dan. I believe that in most Taira lineages - Akamine, Inoue, Nakamoto, Minowa, etc. it is taught at a fairly high level.

As for George Alexander, I think you are totally correct, lets not even go there.

Cheers,

Mario McKenna
Vancouver, BC

P.S. Shameless plug, put if you are in the Vancouver area this Oct 29 & 30, I will be hosting my kobudo sempai, Yoshimura Hiroshi sensei, who will be teaching seminars on Minowa sensei's version of Taira lineage kobudo. Information can be found here:

http://www.mariomckenna.com/events.html

More information on Minowa sensei here:

http://www.mariomckenna.com/minowakatsuhiko.html

Sochin
13th October 2005, 17:41
We do a number of kata with the 'sand flip' move, which, due to my playing with sticks and homemade swords all my life, I knew wouldn't flip any sand. When it was described as the application, I just assigned it to that part of my personal style that said it was an explanation of how to move 'as if' flipping sand.

Then I heard of the eku and it all made sense.

I also learned that the Nu Chah Nulth and Haida peoples of the coast here,
(hi Mario! :) ) fought with their paddles and used them to successfully slash off a head or spear thru to the heart. Some paddles are actually quite sharp on the edge, just for this purpose.

CEB
13th October 2005, 17:54
FWIW, Sunakake is taught near the end of Choun no Kun. I think there is some basis for the statement Or is the Katas just intended to teach as the movement but not using a bo if we actually were to do it?

IMO, there are manipulation/ techniques in our bojutsu that trully only make sense in the context of other long weapons such as the spear, nunte, or eku.

twayman
13th October 2005, 18:33
Sunakake is taught near the end of Choun no Kun.

IMHO I like to associate this move with a sharp blow under the chin, then thrust to the air way makes more sense (to me) than flipping sand (at least with a bo). But, every explanation helps in defining the moves; making them more useful.

Shikiyanaka
13th October 2005, 21:35
Question: Is Sunakake no Kun completely different than Chikin Sunakake no Kun (no Eku-d)? (I know none of them)

Is there any notice of an Eku being used in Kobudo performances before 1950s or so?

Just a thought; I once heard that they (the Okinawans) did some "Sunakake Kata" with the B, and only adapted the Eku "more recently."

Sanseru
13th October 2005, 21:43
Hello Andreas:

Sunakake no kon, to the best of my knowledge, is a separate form to Tsuken Suna kake no kon. Toyama Kanken and others taught Sunakake no kon.

Taira apparently learned Tsuken Sunakake no kon (Eku) from Yabiku Moden after he became his student in 1929 - so this is pre-1950's.

For what its worth.

CEB
13th October 2005, 21:48
Is there any notice of an Eku being used in Kobudo performances before 1950s or so?

FWIW, the Akahachi oar kata I practice is supposed to trace roots back to the 1400s. I wasn't there so I guess I don't really know.