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Hattori
15th November 2005, 00:08
If you look at some of the techniques in Hatsumi Sensei's stick fighting book (co-written with Chambers) there are several techniques (Hishigi - short stick) from Asayama Ichiden-ryu.

The Asayama Ichiden ryu DOES NOT include any "crushing stick" (hishigi) methods. The hishigijutsu techniques that Hatsumi covers in his book are from Shindo Tenshin ryu according to Hatsumi. Ueno Takashi was the 8th head of Shindo Tenshin ryu.

George Kohler
15th November 2005, 04:14
The Asayama Ichiden ryu DOES NOT include any "crushing stick" (hishigi) methods. The hishigijutsu techniques that Hatsumi covers in his book are from Shindo Tenshin ryu according to Hatsumi. Ueno Takashi was the 8th head of Shindo Tenshin ryu.

David,

YOU ARE WRONG. Asayama Ichiden-ryu DOES have hishigi-jutsu. Shindo Tenshin-ryu also has Hishigi-jutsu. The techniques in the book contains both Asayama Ichiden-ryu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu.

As to which technique in the book belongs to Asayama Ichiden-ryu, please refer to page 100. The technique is "hiki otoshi" and belongs to the "jodan no kurai" section of Asayama Ichiden-ryu and not Shindo Tenshin-ryu.

Hattori
15th November 2005, 06:58
David,

YOU ARE WRONG. Asayama Ichiden-ryu DOES have hishigi-jutsu. Shindo Tenshin-ryu also has Hishigi-jutsu. The techniques in the book contains both Asayama Ichiden-ryu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu.


The technique is "hiki otoshi" and belongs to the "jodan no kurai" section of Asayama Ichiden-ryu

Pardon me? No mention of hishigijutsu in my notes and I've never come across it in my practice (I have practiced Asayama Ichiden ryu on and off for several years now under Hattori Makoto in Atsugi Japan).

No mention of such techniques in the Asayama Ichiden Ryu Yawara Taijutsu Gokui Zukai Hidensho either.

Could you kindly elaborate further?

George Kohler
15th November 2005, 12:57
Could you kindly elaborate further?

Tanemura Shoto Sensei.

ChrisMoon
15th November 2005, 16:07
Could you kindly elaborate further?

Kaminaga Shigemi, Tanaka Fumon, Serge Mol...

There are several lines of transmission for Asayama Ichiden Ryu and the one I am most familiar with has it. It is even referenced in Serge Mol's book, Classical Weaponry of Japan on pages 94-98.

Seishin
15th November 2005, 21:48
My Teacher (Kai Kuniyuki Sensei of Nippon Budoin Seibukan) is a direct student of Kaminaga Shigemi Soke of Asayama Ichiden Ryu. He has shown me Hishigi techniques from the Ryu (including Ueno Sensei's drawings). I seem to remember that there are about a dozen techniques or so in addition to 25 Hanbo waza. He has also studied Shinto Tenshin Koryu Kempo with Kaminaga Shigemi Soke, and it is correct that there are Hishigi techniques in that Ryu as well.

Regards
Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan

George Kohler
15th November 2005, 22:32
Pardon me? No mention of hishigijutsu in my notes and I've never come across it in my practice (I have practiced Asayama Ichiden ryu on and off for several years now under Hattori Makoto in Atsugi Japan).

Hmmm...If you are practicing the same branch that Ueno Takashi Sensei was soke of, maybe you need to ask Hattori Makoto about it.

I seem to recall that almost all taijutsu kata in Asayama Ichiden-ryu, if not all, can be done with a "hassun hishigi" (I believe the techniques are called bogyakudori - I'll have to check my notes when I get home).

George Kohler
16th November 2005, 04:19
I assume that your teacher is Hattori Masanobu, student of Kaminaga Shigemi? Did you know that Kaminaga has stated that the Asayama Ichiden-ryu Yawara Taijutsu Gokui Zukai Hidensho does not cover "all techniques"?

Hattori
16th November 2005, 07:15
I will check on the hishigijutsu techniques of Asayama Ichiden ryu with Hattori Makoto. As I said, I am unaware that there are any. Perhaps a different branch or perhaps I haven't been introduced to them yet? Or perhaps it's a case of things being added to puff up the curriculum?

Regards


(Admin note: merged post from a different thread - George Kohler)

Hattori
16th November 2005, 07:32
I assume that your teacher is Hattori Masanobu, student of Kaminaga Shigemi?

No, no relation.

Perhaps you are confusing the hishigi with the tansaibo, I have practiced bogyakudori with the Tansaibo.These techniques are significantly different than hishigijutsu.

A hishigi is 39cm where as the tansaibo is 24cm and is much thinner, about the thickness of a pencil.

George Kohler
16th November 2005, 13:17
Both the Asayama Ichiden-ryu and Shindo Tenshin-ryu refer their hand held sticks as "Tanbo". In the Asayama Ichiden-ryu they use two sizes.

Also, there are different lengths for Hishigi. One is 39cm and the other is shorter and called "hassun hishigi".

Here is section from an article that was in the magazine Hiden on hanbojutsu and tanbojutsu, by Tanemura Sensei:


We call a stick that is exactly one half the size of a bo a “cane” or “staff” and anything shorter than that is a “tanbou.” If we go shorter than a tanbo, there is the “hishigi”, but the hishigi is also seen as a kind of tanbou. Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Shinto Tenshin Ryu is famous for its “Hishigi-jutsu.”

He has also stated:


Gyakutori bojutsu is the Ura (i.e., inner) techniques of Tanbojutsu (short stick techniques).

Hattori
17th November 2005, 04:15
Quite obviously we are talking about two differing lineages with two differing opinions. :)

Thanks for explaining your side of the coin. I should not have been so general in my original statement it seems.

George Kohler
17th November 2005, 13:08
Quite obviously we are talking about two differing lineages with two differing opinions. :)

Thanks for explaining your side of the coin. I should not have been so general in my original statement it seems.

Just courious, which branch of Asayama Ichiden-ryu does Hattori Makoto teach?

Mekugi
17th November 2005, 15:37
The Asayama Ichiden ryu DOES NOT include any "crushing stick" (hishigi) methods. The hishigijutsu techniques that Hatsumi covers in his book are from Shindo Tenshin ryu according to Hatsumi. Ueno Takashi was the 8th head of Shindo Tenshin ryu.

Shinto Tenshin Ryu's name was changed during the Allied Occupation to Tenshin Koryu kempo (an FYI here). The branch of Asayama Ichiden ryu that Ueno sensei taught was primarily taijutsu, however there seems to be a heavy indication that small weapons could be used in their application - at least in his branch (George is spot on). My two bits.

Hattori
18th November 2005, 00:19
Just courious, which branch of Asayama Ichiden-ryu does Hattori Makoto teach?

Until I started discussing it in this thread with you, I didn't think that there were differing branches of the ryu. What I have been taught is different however, so I will have to check on which "branch" it is that I have been practicing. :)

Shudo
12th March 2010, 12:53
I am trying to locate quality media on Asayama ichiden ryu, chi no maki.Books, DVD or VHS that is not ninpo based and without having to spend 3 figure sums. Can anyone point me in the right direction.
Regards
Sean Halpin

Troy Wideman
12th March 2010, 13:55
Hello Sean,

Not sure what you mean by ninpo based. I have a Okuden Menkyo licence in Asayama Ichiden Ryu, when we do it in the Genbukan, or any ryu ha for that matter. It is taught as a seperate entity to the ninpo program. Inrelation to media and book coverage of Asayama Ichiden Ryu, there is a public book put out there by an instructor. However, this has a lot of other stuff mixed into it and is not Asayama Ichiden Ryu in its pure form. Tanemura Sensei, does have DVD's on the material but I think you need to be a member to get the information. As to the 3 figure sums, I think the video's are around $30 to $40 which is reasonable, I guess if you buy all three you might hit 3 figures. However if you really want to learn the art, you will need to find a qualified teacher of it and I am sure this will cost you more then the videos.

Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman

Troy Wideman
12th March 2010, 14:05
Hi Sean,

I actually just went to our website and noticed that the dvd's are available to the public. The dvd's from shoden to Okuden would run you around $130.00 in total, with shipping. However, if you are trying to learn the material I would suggest you find someone that is qualified because not all the information is given on the dvd's.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Shudo
12th March 2010, 14:57
Hi Troy,
Thank you for the information. My knowledge on Asayama is limited and I have previously heard that Asayama as taught by Ninjutsu schools has been blended in with other forms of Jujutsu. This is not my opinion.....just hear say. Hence my reference in my previous post. I did have a look at media available from Tanemura sensei it looks very interesting, also his Hanbo book looks very interesting. I am not trying to learn this or any other art by video, I think I am old and experienced enough to know this is impossible. Unfortunately, this like many arts are difficult to find locally available.I would like to see and understand more about the basics of this art, to get a feel. If you can vouch for it, I would be happy to accept your recommendation. Have you viewed these DVD's?
Kind Regards
Sean

Troy Wideman
12th March 2010, 16:45
Hi Sean,

I am just curious, are you in london england, or london, Ontario-Canada. If you are in Canada, come down and see me.
Inrelation to the video's, they are great to give you an idea of the patterns but you obviously can't pick up the small points on the patterns. The Dvd's also do not give you all the patterns for the level. Obviously Tanemura Sensei does not want to give the whole schools techniques by Dvd.
Inrelation to the style, it is a very hard joint locking system. In the higher levels it has some ground fighting incorporated into it. I have viewed the Dvd's and think they are a great referrence source to help someone remember the patterns, if they have already learned them, however, learning the techniques from them is another issue.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Shudo
16th March 2010, 11:06
Hi Troy,
I am in London England. I have previously done a small amount of Asayama with Kai Kuniyuki Sensei's group.
Regards,
Sean Halpin.

Lance Gatling
16th March 2010, 11:15
What's the full syllabus of Asayama Ichiden ryu like? I guess in days gone by some of its grappling and counters against grasps would be rare but compared to many systems, it seems fairly common enough.

Troy Wideman
16th March 2010, 12:42
Hello Lance,

The system is compromised of locks, counters to locks, defences against strikes and some ground fighting in the higher level. In the highest level there is small stick techniques. I think the style gets more interesting as you proceed higher in the levels. It is usually one of the first ryu ha started under Tanemura Sensei.

Hi Sean,

What level did you reach in Asayama Ichiden Ryu.


Kind Regards,


Troy Wideman

Shudo
17th March 2010, 09:44
Hi Troy,
Kai Sensei did not teach Asayama as a single gradeable stand alone art. In fact, he blended some of the aspects of asayama into his own style, Yoshin Ry Bujutsu, however, on occaison he would demonstrate or teach some Asayama techniques. As such, I am a big grade 0.
Kind Regards
Sean Halpin

Duke Meade
17th March 2010, 18:57
According to Sato Kinbei Sensei, Asayama Sangoro Ichidensai studied many styles of Jujutsu then based on this knowledge made his own Asayama Ichiden Ryu Ha.
Sato Sensei learned this style from Takashi Ueno Sensei. Sato Sensei said that the style had many techniques that were similar to Dai To RyuAiki Jujutsu.
I know of only one manual, and that is the one I have from Sato Sensei.
The manual is divided into many sections.
I do not think you would be able to learn much from this book. Like the other members stated , you will need a Sensei. Sato Sensei thought this style very worthy to pass it on.
I have been teaching this style for 17 years and I agree with what Sato Sensei said.

Best Regards,

Duke Meade

Troy Wideman
17th March 2010, 20:06
HI Duke,

Thanks for the contribution. Yes I agree with you, there are huge similarities to Daito Ryu. I like to classify it as a harder style then Daito Ryu, locks are applied more directly. This is just my assumption because I hold no rank in Daito ryu, it is only from what I have observed in video. What rank did you receive? Do you have the copies of Ueno Chosui's manuals. I have up to Okuden and again I agree that you can't learn the techniques from the manuals. It is most definitely a worthy style, which I think gets even more interesting at the higher levels.

KInd Regards,

Troy Wideman

Duke Meade
17th March 2010, 23:44
Hi Troy San,

I do not have Ueno Sensei's manuals. I do have Sato Sensei's manual.
It has all the Kata from begining to the end of this Jujutsu.

Studying from Sato Sensei, we learned many techniques and other things from all of the different styles he had studied. This fruition of his was Dai Wa Do (大和道)
As for rank, I have a Kaiden Menkyo of Dai Wa Do and other.

Thanks for your reply,

Duke

Troy Wideman
18th March 2010, 00:47
HI Duke,

Thats great, its nice to finally chat with you. I have heard about you and your dojo. Yes your teacher was a great man and he is connected to our family as you know. I wish you all the best in your training. Who knows maybe we will cross paths sometime.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Shudo
18th March 2010, 09:22
Hello Duke,
Thank you for your response, I am aware of another text "Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu", authored by Iwaki Hideo. However, this book appears to be out of print and scanned copies are being offered for silly money. I am not attempting to learn this art by book, DVD etc, as previously stated. I just have a strong interest in Jujutsu and as such,
collect media etc and like to train.
Kind Regards
Sean Halpin

Chris Parker
18th March 2010, 11:06
Hi Sean,

I actually have a copy of the book in question (but have been desperately searching for a copy of his three-part book on Tenshin Koryu.... from what I can see it was never translated into English). It's an incredibly well done piece, divided up into the following sections:

- Background info and the 33 Ways Of Deliverance.
- Tehodoki Shoden (a series of grip breaks)
- Tehodoki Okuden (a series of applying limb controls and locks from grabs)
- Jodan No Kurai (many of the basic applications of the school)
- Chudan No Kurai (a slightly harder application, including some more takedown techniques)
- Gedan No Kurai (a greater focus here on escapes from rear grabs)
- Okuden No Kurai (much more advanced techniques, all invovling a throw to finish)
- Idori No Kurai (Asayama Ichiden's seated waza, many similar to previous level techniques)
- Shio No Kurai (takes the idea on non-resistance in its techniques)
- Shotodori No Kurai (defences against short sword and knife attacks)
- Tachidori No Kurai (defences against long sword, including a few from seiza).

From what I have seen, most lists for Asayama Ichiden Ryu seem to be the Jodan No Kurai, Chudan No Kurai, Gedan No Kurai, Okuden No Kurai, and Idori No Kurai, so this goes a bit further. Unfortunately, the pictures and the written descriptions have a number of discrepancies between them (deliberately, I feel), so getting to the real kata is not an easy thing to do. There are certain steps not described, but shown in the diagrams, and sometimes the wrong hand is mentioned, at other times whole steps appear left out.... quite a headache!

That said, it is from the Yokohama-den branch of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, which I believe is the same branch that is taught in the Genbukan, and by Sato Sensei (and obviously by extension Kai Sensei), so it is probably very similar at the very least.

As a slight aside, a number of years ago a few Bujinkan seniors were purporting to be teaching Gikan Ryu, giving it the structure listed above (Jodan No Kurai through to Idori No Kurai), but they were just teaching aspects of Asayama Ichiden Ryu that they had been shown by Hatsumi I believe. He had recieved Menkyo Kaiden in the system from Ueno Takashi Sensei before being given Hamon when he started studying under Takamatsu.
-

nicojo
18th March 2010, 13:52
In Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan edited by Diane Skoss, page 63, there is a brief sketch of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Heiho. I never understood (or really, bothered to research in order to understand) the difference between this koryu and what is taught by Genbukan, etc. groups. Just a different line near the beginning I suppose. You can see a bit of this thumbnail description on Koryu.com under the ryu guide at http://www.koryu.com/guide/ichiden.html . Perhaps the Skosses or other koryu researchers would be able to give you more information.

Troy Wideman
18th March 2010, 22:14
Hi Chris,

Actually the Iwaki Hideo book has alot of things added into it that are not main line Asayama Ichiden Ryu. All the Tai Hodoki is not part of the system, or alot of the sword material. Inrelation to the information that was being taught as Gikan Ryu, this was actually information taken from copied versions of Tanemura Sensei's old Tapes. A group of people did not know what the techniques were so they thought they were Gikan Ryu, I know this because i was part of that group before I joined the Genbukan. It was then being spread around as Gikan Ryu patterns, hahaha, quite funny really.
Inrelation to speaking with the Skoss's about the ryu ha, I would beg to differ. If they do not have a licence in the style they can only surmise. This is most likely why hardly any information is in about the style. You need to speak with someone that is actually licenced in the Ryu ha and that can speak with authority on it. I do not believe they are but I could be wrong.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

nicojo
19th March 2010, 00:39
Hey Troy, and everyone

It's just interesting to me that a relatively lesser-known ryu-ha has several different places it crops up. The line I mentioned sure doesn't seem to have much presence in the English-speaking world (as actual people studying with this line) that I can find from easy-chair net-searching. I just hadn't seen anyone mention the description from koryu.com. No I don't think Diane and Mike Skoss claim any authority in speaking of Asayama Ichiden ryu other than their experience in koryu as observers and practitioners (of other ryu), experience much much greater than mine for sure. They may have met some practitioners or instructors of the ryu when they did their field study, I don't know. May be a lead, maybe not.

Here's a short clip from a demonstration in Japan with kama and bokken: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bSJJTVxGSw

and a wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asayama_Ichiden-ry%C5%AB

Probably both have been found by others. Well, my job (such as it is) here is done. :) Good luck researching Sean. Interesting to read about, for a fly on the wall.



Inrelation to speaking with the Skoss's about the ryu ha, I would beg to differ. If they do not have a licence in the style they can only surmise. This is most likely why hardly any information is in about the style. You need to speak with someone that is actually licenced in the Ryu ha and that can speak with authority on it. I do not believe they are but I could be wrong.

Troy Wideman
19th March 2010, 04:10
Hi J.

Well as I said, I am ranked Okuden Menkyo in this Ryu ha so I can speak with a bit of authority, a bit. I am sure Mr. Meade can also contribute because of his rank as well.

Kind Regards,

Troy

nicojo
19th March 2010, 04:27
Well, good deal! Apparantly I missed the part where you said you trained in the same line. Have a nice day.


Hi J.

Well as I said, I am ranked Okuden Menkyo in this Ryu ha so I can speak with a bit of authority, a bit. I am sure Mr. Meade can also contribute because of his rank as well.

Kind Regards,

Troy

Troy Wideman
19th March 2010, 12:30
No problem, Good luck in your training.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Shudo
23rd March 2010, 13:28
Troy,J, Chris and Duke,
Thanks for all the information, very useful. Chris, now you have me searching for another book (Tenshin Koryu) sounds very interesting and maybe another fruitless search. Good luck and good training to you all.
Regards,
Sean Halpin.