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Ulf Lehmann
27th January 2001, 20:02
If I want to translate the name *Taisha ryu* from japanese language, I can found only a mix from Katagana forms for the word *Ta-i* and a Kanji (タイ捨流).
Is there also a full Kanji form for this school-name?
But why did the japanese wrote a 400 years old school with Katagana.
Means the word Taisha a foreign word?

Ulf Lehmann

Joanne Miller
28th January 2001, 01:13
Hello Ulf,

Founder of Taisha Ryu was a person named Marume Kurando who was a direct student of Kamiizumi Ise no kami Nobutsuna (Founder of Shinkage Ryu)and recieved Menkyo kaiden in Shinkage ryu.In later years the founder added Chinese Wushu into his system!

It's true the name of Taisha Ryu is listed as タイ捨流 and there is no Kanji for the タイ part. Like you ,I am guessing it is a non-native word as well.

Something interesting,after the founder's death a Chinese Man (His Chinese name as read by the Japanese was Den Rinbo)who was a ex-pirate lead this line. Den rinbo actually led the Sagara Shinobi-Gun (Sagara Ninja group). Taisha Ryu was kind of in a way famous for it's Ninja Agents (Sagara Ninja)

If you are interested and can read Japanese go to this url:
http://www.miyazaki-nw.or.jp/yamame/taisya.html

Taisha Ryu is still active in Japan and is currently in it's 13 generation lead by Yamakita Takenori sensei in Kumamoto ken. I am not 100% sure but I think Taisha Ryu has Mukei Bunkazai status

Cheers,

[Edited by Joanne Miller on 01-27-2001 at 08:53 PM]

Ulf Lehmann
28th January 2001, 13:29
Hi Joanne,

thank you for your infos. Well, I know the connections of Marume Kurando and the Shimazu clan in Kumamoto.
But I wondering about the unusually name of the Ryu.

Ulf Lehmann

Meik Skoss
28th January 2001, 18:50
Nope, Taisha-ryu isn't a foreign loan word. It's just that Marume Kurando, the founder, chose to write the name of the style he created from Shinkage-ryu. He was a senior student of Kamiizumi Ise-no-kami Hidetsuna (Nobutsuna) and went on to create his own system, using a lot of Shinkage technique to do so and leavening it with a bunch of other stuff.

In doing so, he decided for some reason to use katakana for the first part of the name. It's just one of those little inconsistencies that drive literal "black-and-white"-minded people (who aren't used to all of the variations in grey in Japanese culture) stark raving bonkers and is what makes it all so interesting.

Ulf Lehmann
29th January 2001, 09:31
Thank you for washing my head...

There was a failure in my last post, I mean *Shimazu of Kagoshima* not Kumamoto - sorry!

Ulf Lehmann

Erik Hallstensson
30th January 2001, 12:05
Joanne Miller wrote:

"In later years the founder added Chinese Wushu into his system!
Something interesting,after the founder's death a Chinese Man (His Chinese name as read by the Japanese was Den Rinbo)who was a ex-pirate lead this line. Den rinbo actually led the Sagara Shinobi-Gun (Sagara Ninja group). Taisha Ryu was kind of in a way famous for it's Ninja Agents (Sagara Ninja)"

Those ninjas just keep popping up everywhere, donエt they? ;)
Seriously though, that must be the strangest (in a positive sense) tradition I have ever heard of. Can anyone shed some more (English language) light on this?

Peace,

Erik

ghp
1st February 2001, 04:38
Meik,



Didn't a not too recent [i]Kendo Nippon magazine have an article about Taisha Ryu? If this is the same style of which I'm thinking, the "sha" kanji means "discard" (I always read it as "tai sute" ryu...oops). Anyway, the person being interviewed -- either the soke or a senior rep -- explained that katakana is used for the "tai" because it can encompass many meanings ["body" for one]. If I recall, he said originally there was a kanji assigned to "tai" but it eventually was replaced with katakana -- so as not to be overly limiting in interpretation.

--- or words to that effect.

What say you, Senior Wrangler of the Skoss Budo Ranch?

Regards,
Guy

ghp
1st February 2001, 05:09
OOps ... Double post.

[Edited by ghp on 02-01-2001 at 12:14 AM]

ghp
1st February 2001, 05:10
Joanne,

I opened the link you provided. The second to last line on that page "...?ョ?Aタイシャの名?フについては?A丸目 ?l13代?@家では?Aタイは?A体?A太?A対?A待を現すのでタイとし?Aシ モヘ待つことを捨てる自?ンの?\えで?u捨?vとするといわれている?Bこのため丸目 ?l本家を指す??はタイ捨と オた?B..." states something like:
"About the name of "Taisha." To the 13th soke, Marume Kurando, "Tai" especially meant "body," "great/thick," "against," etc. "Sha" [alt. "sya"] was the kamae of discarding one's Self. For this reason, the Marume Kurando main family teaches Tai [katakana] Sha [kanji].

So my recall from that Kendo Nippon issue was not too far off.

Oh, the last sentence "...当地の棒?pでは秘伝?曹ノ?S影無雙太車流と るのでこのように使うことが望ましいと思う?B..." says something like, "In the hiden-sho of a local bojutsu [school] it was used in this manner: Shinkage Muso Taisha [Great Wheel] Ryu."

Meik and Earl ... you'se guys read Japanese. How far off am I?

Many thanks!

Guy

Earl Hartman
1st February 2001, 16:55
Guy:

Sorry, I just get a bunch of gobbledygook on the screen where the Japanese is supposed to be.

ghp
2nd February 2001, 00:31
Thanks for trying Earl ... I know my response showed the kanji as gobbledygook, but didja try the link that Joanne provided?

We still need to get together so I can show off my yew longbow!

Cheers,
Guy

Earl Hartman
2nd February 2001, 01:46
Guy:
Still gobledygook. Gotta get me them there drivers that can handle kanji, I reckon.

JohntheOne
17th January 2006, 18:55
Does anyone know where I can find information about a Koryu by the name of Taisho-ryu? It was supposively created by Marume Karundo who was one of the few people to receive a certificate from Kamiizumi Nobutsuna. From what little I know, Karundo went on to be a instructor for the Shimazi clan in Kyushu and died about 1627? I am not even certain if this Koryu still exists.

Neil Yamamoto
17th January 2006, 18:59
Taisha Ryu, not taisho. Budovideos.com has a video on them I believe. Koryu.com had some info on the ryu as well.

JohntheOne
17th January 2006, 19:45
Taisha Ryu, not taisho. Budovideos.com has a video on them I believe. Koryu.com had some info on the ryu as well.

Thanks for the reply. I found the video on Budovideos.com, but the summary indicates it is only in Japanese. I could not find any reference on Koryu.com and their search engine didn't get any hits. Do you know of any English language sources I can lookup?

Brett Charvat
18th January 2006, 00:47
Not sure how much help this will be, but my aikido instructor is a student of Taisha ryu (and perhaps menkyo kaiden, but I'm not certain about that). He studied it in Hitoyoshi, in the southern part of Kyushu (he currently lives and teaches in Kumamoto City). He's told me just a bit about Taisha ryu at enkais and whatnot, but not much. He mentioned that it had some relationship with Yagyu Shinkage ryu, but I'm unclear exactly what that entailed. He also mentioned that, like Yagyu Shinkage ryu, Taisha ryu at one point had some sort of ninja connection on its "ura" side. The exact way he put it was "Omote wa...kenjutsu. Ura wa...ninja." That's about all I was able to drag out of him, sorry it's not much. I also asked if he taught Taisha ryu, but he was quite clear that he did not and did not wish to. At that point I decided to stop being nosy and enjoy a more upbeat discussion on aikido with him. (to all Yagyu Shinkage ryu practitioners, please don't take offense. It's quite possible I misunderstood what was said regarding Yagyu Shinkage ryu and if so, I humbly apologize).

Katsujinken
19th January 2006, 23:21
This is what I understand to be the link betwen Taisha Ryu and Shin Kage Ryu: Marume Karundo was a student of Kamiizumi Nobutsuna who founded the Shin Kage Ryu as was Hozo Inei (Founder Hozo Ryu Spear) and Yagyu Muneyoshi (Founder Yagyu Shin Kage Ryu).

Marume originally called his style Taisha Shin Kage Ryu, one of his students went off to train with Kamiizumi Nobutsuna and then went back to train with Marume Karundo, the latter then realised that his Taisha Shin Kage Ryu had developed differently from what his teacher taught and dropped the Shin Kage from the name. Marume then sought out his teacher Nobutsuna again, but alas it was too late, he had died.

Do not know the name of Marumes student who trained with Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, (if this version of the history is correct) and if any one knows I would be interested to know.

I also understand that one Togo Shigejura who was a student of Taisha Ryu founded the Jigen Ryu style that was taught to the Satsuma Samurai.

I have also heard of a Taisha Shinkan Ryu within the Okuyama family line as well.

I understand that Kouzo Kaku, an Aikidoka, who wrote the book mysterious power of Ki practises Taisha Ryu Ken Jutsu, I believe he is based in Nara. There was some discussion on an old thread about him and Taisha Ryu quite a while back.

Regards

hyaku
20th January 2006, 01:21
The founder of Kage-ryu in the late 1500,s Yamamoto Hisaya Masakatsu also did Taisha ryu. Yanagawa, Kyushu also had Oishi Shinkage Ryu. Looking back it looks like there were a lot of connections.