PDA

View Full Version : Thrusting technique



matt henseler
14th March 2006, 15:48
Does anyone know of a style that employs a thrust that does not slide through the front hand? Like a poking jab?

Sochin
15th March 2006, 22:22
Sure, Sensei richard Kim (ZBBK) taught us to do thrusts this way, from two different positions.

nobida
2nd April 2006, 08:30
i think it's a common thrusting technique for polearms.

most of the okinawan-based bojutsu styles im aware of have it, as does naginata.

Nathan Scott
5th April 2006, 00:37
When I studied Okinawan Bojutsu, I was taught both types of thrusts, which were found within kata as well:

Nuki-tsuki - sliding thrust (haft slides through front hand)
Maede-tsuki - front hand thrust (haft does not slide within the grips)

A sliding thrust is useful for thrusting at a greater distance, but is weaker in terms of recovery and control. A firm-grip thrust is more solid, but requires a closer distance, especially with the front hand. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

In Atarashii Naginata, sliding thrusts are used primarily with ishizuki thrusts, while kissaki thrusts are fixed grip. Tendo-ryu also seems to favor sliding ishizuki thrusts and fixed grip (spiraling) kissaki thrusts.

An equally interesting question about thrusts would be hand positioning of the back hand. In Okinawan bojutsu I've often seen the palm side of the backhand pressed against the chest, or somewhat pointed downwards. In sojutsu, the back hand seems to spiral inwards until the backhand palm is upwards, which is how the Tendo-ryu egurizuki thrust is performed. I've tried thrusting hard makiwara using both backhand techniques, and have found that the palm up is very strong, while having the back hand palm pointing in any other direction tends to focus the force of the thrust into the back hand wrist, which weakens the thrust and is quite painful.

FWIW,

Karl Friday
5th April 2006, 19:27
Does anyone know of a style that employs a thrust that does not slide through the front hand? Like a poking jab?

Japanese yari are by definition thrust by sliding the weapon through the front hand (except in the case of special techniques). This is one of the defining elements that distinguishes a yari from a hoko, an older type of spear. In fact, the character most commonly used to write yari (鑓) is a Japanese-invented graph that combines the element for "metal" with one that means "slide."

Ellis Amdur
5th April 2006, 20:04
Karl -

I'm aware that the hoko was a socketed spear, and the yari a tanged spear. But was there something in the morphology of the hoko that precluded "sliding" thrusts, or was it just a technical innovation that happened to coincide with the revival of the spear in the Japanese armory, after several centuries' hiatus?

Karl Friday
5th April 2006, 20:08
Karl -

I'm aware that the hoko was a socketed spear, and the yari a tanged spear. But was there something in the morphology of the hoko that precluded "sliding" thrusts, or was it just a technical innovation that happened to coincide with the revival of the spear in the Japanese armory, after several centuries' hiatus?

Hoko usually had ribbed hafts, which facilitated a solid grip and "poking" sorts of thrusts, but made yari-style (pool cue-style) thrusts difficult. In the realm of pure speculation, I wonder if the yari wasn't invented because someone noticed how much more range and speed you can get from the sliding thrust, and realized that the ribbed haft hurt his hands when he tried it?

Ellis Amdur
5th April 2006, 20:17
Karl -

Were the ribs the length of the weapon, or ridges around the circumfrence?

Best

Karl Friday
5th April 2006, 20:30
Karl -

Were the ribs the length of the weapon, or ridges around the circumfrence?

Best


They ran around the circumfrence--maybe "rings" would be a better way to describe them. :)

kabutoki
6th April 2006, 20:57
Dear Dr. Friday,
how do you/we know that the hafts were of that form? I presume they were made of wood. Have any hafts been found?

Karsten Helmholz

Karl Friday
7th April 2006, 14:37
Dear Dr. Friday,
how do you/we know that the hafts were of that form? I presume they were made of wood. Have any hafts been found?

Karsten Helmholz

We can tell from surviving examples. There are quite a few preserved from the Nara period--including several in the Shosoin collection.

Hughes
7th April 2006, 15:28
We can tell from surviving examples. There are quite a few preserved from the Nara period--including several in the Shosoin collection.

Hi Karl,

Have you any picture to help figure the shape out?

Karl Friday
7th April 2006, 17:03
Hi Karl,

Have you any picture to help figure the shape out?

I've seen a few pictures, but I don't have any I could post, at least not at the moment. I'm on the road for the weekend, but I can check a few books when I get back, and perhaps at least post a citation or two.

Mekugi
9th April 2006, 13:12
Hoko usually had ribbed hafts, which facilitated a solid grip and "poking" sorts of thrusts, but made yari-style (pool cue-style) thrusts difficult. In the realm of pure speculation, I wonder if the yari wasn't invented because someone noticed how much more range and speed you can get from the sliding thrust, and realized that the ribbed haft hurt his hands when he tried it?

I have a mid to late Edo era Sodegarami kicking around here that has "ribs" carved in the wood towards the spiked head; right where the steel runs into the wooden shaft, (about 25cm lengthwise). I speculated that it was for keeping a good grip, facilitating in short thrusts and "wrapping" actions. This seems to coincide with my theory.

I would also like to inquire as to what type of spears these are- that is to say were they actually used or just buried. I believe there is a great difference between the two, especially during this period where there was high-art, no? I mean to say, the ones that usually survive are the ones that were rarely used.

Karl Friday
9th April 2006, 17:46
I would also like to inquire as to what type of spears these are- that is to say were they actually used or just buried. I believe there is a great difference between the two, especially during this period where there was high-art, no? I mean to say, the ones that usually survive are the ones that were rarely used.

If you're talking about the Nara and Heian era hoko, the bottom line, of course, is that there's no way to know. We have what we have, and nothing else. There's no particular reason--no evidence--however, for believing that the surviving hoko were different from hoko actually used in battle. And there is also the fact that the Japanese invented a character for yari that incorporates the ideograph for "slide," which pretty strongly suggests that this "pool cue" thrusting technique was a key feature of the newer type of spear.

Mekugi
12th April 2006, 12:43
My next question would be when the yari kanji became common and how that date it compares to the dates on the Nara and Heian Hoko.

This is gather interest for me, I may have to take a little trip in the near future to check this collecton out for myself (if they let me or are on display, that is).


If you're talking about the Nara and Heian era hoko, the bottom line, of course, is that there's no way to know. We have what we have, and nothing else. There's no particular reason--no evidence--however, for believing that the surviving hoko were different from hoko actually used in battle. And there is also the fact that the Japanese invented a character for yari that incorporates the ideograph for "slide," which pretty strongly suggests that this "pool cue" thrusting technique was a key feature of the newer type of spear.

Mekugi
12th April 2006, 17:03
This is gather interest for me

EESH...make that gathering...I need to type when I have more time.

fifthchamber
13th April 2006, 02:00
Is there any chance that the Hoko were still in use or extant in any way at all other than legend or archaological terms in the 16th century? The name is used in one of the Takeuchi Ryu waza and I was wondering if it had any links to the spear variety? Or if it simply reflected the use of a long staff like weapon..Any thoughts on this?
My regards.

Ellis Amdur
13th April 2006, 03:35
It is my understanding that hoko were largely abandoned by mid-Heian, supplanted by new tactics and naginata. By the way, the hoko had a socketed spear head, not nearly as secure as the tanged spear-head usual on yari. Yari began to be used in Kamakura period, and increasingly supplanted the naginata.
Hoko continued to be used as a generic term for polearms - there is a nagamaki kata in Buko-ryu called "nagiboko." But the weapon, itself, was long gone by the time that ryu were established.

best

fifthchamber
13th April 2006, 03:46
Thank you Mr. Amdur,
I see, I had always just assumed that the Hoko we referred to was a "theoretical" spear...Or as you say, one that was represented by a staff..But it makes perfect sense that the term was kept to mean something along the lines of a spear..Long and dangerous at least.
I had read the essay in "Old School" and was rather interested when the term came up in training. It is performed against a Rokushakubo.
Thank you.
My regards.

Nii
19th October 2007, 09:08
I posted this elsewhere (without a good answer) so I might as well stick it here where it is a hub of information. Plus activity is always low so might as well break the ice =)

Anyway I've been doing TSKSR for awhile, and observed that soujutsu (spear) is part of its curriculum. Does the use of the yari in TSKSR have spiral thrusts, similar to many Kungfu systems and Owari Kan Ryu? Or are the thrusts... thrusts?

Just to clarify, by spiral I mean how the staff's rotational axis will be outside of the staff itself. So it rotates around an external rather than internal axis.

EDIT: Is soujutsu taught before or after naginatajutsu?

Teebo
19th October 2007, 14:23
Where I train KSR Sugino-ha, sojutsu is taught at a later point than naginatajutsu. I do not know how much later though. I guess there are always differences in this matter, based on dojo, teacher and student.

Stefffen
19th October 2007, 18:58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYjFpb1G4D4

After what I have seen there is no spiral thrust like what I have seen in Chinese martial art. But don’t take my word for it.

George Kohler
20th October 2007, 00:05
In the original tv show, which the video mentioned above comes from, it looks like the lead hand is rotating clockwise.

Nii
20th October 2007, 07:56
Don't kill my newfound passion for Kenjutsu. I'm trying to improve the rate of discussion on these forums as well. I'm also hoping to talk to people that study TSKSR as well, are you suggesting I shouldn't?

Anyway it is hard to tell during the kata (as the thrust generally gets interrupted). I will ask during my next training session.

Here is a video of Owari Kan Ryu that I found very impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCeHuv2M5NY

Stefffen
20th October 2007, 09:35
There are not many that would discuss the technique on an internet forum. I could comment a thing and two but I would not like to discuss it openly. When someone not in the ryu says something completely wrong I could comment it. The technique is for the ryus practitioner only (also the politics). So find those that train and send them private messages. But still you should know that discussing techniques over internet is not accurately enough, only face to face is good enough. As long as you know that it is good to go. :)

George Kohler
20th October 2007, 12:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYjFpb1G4D4



Here is a video of Owari Kan Ryu that I found very impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCeHuv2M5NY

Both the videos from youtube are from the same show. There are other ryuha that were on the show so you may see those too.

Kevin Geaslin
24th October 2007, 03:11
Was this from the Nihon Kobudo series?

George Kohler
24th October 2007, 04:16
No, It is a TV show that covered many ryuha including Takenouchi-ryu, Katori Shinto-ryu, Daito-ryu, Taisha-ryu, Owari Kan-ryu and others.

Fred27
24th October 2007, 08:56
Was this from the Nihon Kobudo series?

This one is from the Nihon Kobudo series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leKwXXxG1_A

*edit*

Just a brief mention: They dont portray the Sojutsu part in the full episode of Nihon Kobudo featuring TSKSR I'm afraid.