View Full Version : There are- no- stupid questions.
MoppyPuppy
16th March 2006, 00:24
Ok, there are no stupid questions right?
I feel kind of silly asking this, because the source of my information is to be laughed at, so I wont say.
But...
Ok here goes: I heard that through some expert meditation a person can make himself, so his "mind is somewhere else."
So say if your arm was on fire, you wouldn't feel it. (too much)
All this because your mind is somewhere else.
Is this real?
There are- no- stupid questions.
Jeremiah J. Ruppe--- Heres to hoping no one in my area sees my name if this is indeed a stupid question.
Prince Loeffler
16th March 2006, 03:07
Ok, there are no stupid questions right?
I feel kind of silly asking this, because the source of my information is to be laughed at, so I wont say.
But...
Ok here goes: I heard that through some expert meditation a person can make himself, so his "mind is somewhere else."
So say if your arm was on fire, you wouldn't feel it. (too much)
All this because your mind is somewhere else.
Is this real?
There are- no- stupid questions.
Jeremiah J. Ruppe--- Heres to hoping no one in my area sees my name if this is indeed a stupid question.
Hi Jeremiah ! Why don't you try it and let us know :D
kimiwane
16th March 2006, 20:00
Ok here goes: I heard that through some expert meditation a person can make himself, so his "mind is somewhere else."
So say if your arm was on fire, you wouldn't feel it. (too much)
All this because your mind is somewhere else.
Generally, martial arts meditation is Zen, which is to make your mind "here and now" and "nowhere else". Of course, it's also to have "no mind"....
But there really is no purpose to putting your mind "somewhere else". Why would you want to do that?
Rather than letting your arm burn, having your mind "here and now" would give you the "presence of mind" to put out the fire on your arm.
Still, maybe you're thinking your body is trapped or something and there's nothing you can do about your burning arm, so you just "put your mind somewhere else" so that you won't "suffer". I guess there could be some value in that, but better to develop "presence of mind" so you (hopefully) won't get caught in some weird situation like that.
The mind should be "here and now" or "not at all".
Best wishes.
MoppyPuppy
17th March 2006, 21:07
What exactly does here and now actually mean?
Isn't it always here and now?
If not...
Where is it usually?
kimiwane
17th March 2006, 21:38
What exactly does here and now actually mean?
Isn't it always here and now?
If not...
Where is it usually?
People tend to have their mind "somewhere else" a lot of the time. People tend to get very abstract about where they are and what they're doing and not really notice what's around them and what's going on around them.
And they get used to the idea that "meditation" involves taking the mind even further from the surroundings, into some "special place" where things are better.
What I'm talking about is just zazen attitude, keeping the mind firmly connected to the hear and now facts of where you are, and making sure that all abstraction comes back home before the body walks off without the mind...
Hope that has some meaning for you.
Brian Owens
18th March 2006, 05:42
What exactly does here and now actually mean?
Isn't it always here and now?
If not...
Where is it usually?
Kurita Sensei told a story once that I think demonstrates this perfectly.
He was following a group of boys down the street one day.
A pretty girl came walking toward them, and one of the boys turned to watch her...and promptly walked into a mail box (or phone booth; I wasn't clear on the translation).
He ended up sprawled on the ground with a bump on the noggin because his mind went someplace else (on the girl that had passed him) rather than sticking to the here and now (where he was walking).
When we see car crashes or hear about fires started by someone smoking in bed, those are clear signs of how most people do not live in the here and now, but have their minds scattered all over hither and yon; they aren't 100% on what they are doing, but rather are flitting here and there on 10,000 things.
Being in the here and now means that whatever you are doing, you do it with full attention.
If you're meditating, then your mind should be on the meditation; not on the ache in your legs or on what's for dinner.
If you're practicing iai, then your mind should be on iai; not on how you're going to pay next week's mortgage payment or on the trip to Florida in December.
If you're gardening, or making your bed, or going to the toilette, or anything else, then being in the here and now means that that is all you're doing.
HTH.
Michael Hodge
18th March 2006, 21:29
If you're meditating, then your mind should be on the meditation; not on the ache in your legs or on what's for dinner.
If you're practicing iai, then your mind should be on iai; not on how you're going to pay next week's mortgage payment or on the trip to Florida in December.
I'd like to point out a distinction between meditation and the state of awareness brought about through methods like zazen, because they are not the same thing.
In zazen, the highest form of practice is called "shikantaza." That's a fancy way of saying "just sitting" and is a technique that is used by accomplished sitters after they have trained their mind to one-pointedness using techniques like breath counting and watching. The difference, however, is that breath watching is meditation -- that is one has an object upon which his subjective self is fixed. There is a consciousness present. One cannot realize the highest teachings of zen by meditation, because the goal is the transcending of the consciousness wherein a sense of separation still remains.
Shikantaza, on the other hand, is a state where there is no fixed attention. The mind encompasses everything at once and nothing in particular. At the point of shikantaza, the mind surpasses the limitations of attention and inattention and all opposites and merges seamlessly with what is. In this state, the subjective man and the objective world nondualistically become one. The ego-based personality (the mind) which creates the perception of distinction is transcended. All opposites coincide, without exclusion.
Takuan in The Unfettered Mind speaks of something called abiding mind. It's the mind that is halted in its tracks due to being attached to something. Tunnel vision of sorts. This is not the mindset one should aim for in the midst of a sword battle. If one aims for the shikantaza mindset during battle, the mind is open to all possibilities and is able to react instaneously without the time-consuming input of the discursive mind. With the ego mind at bay during a battle, the result is that there is nobody in you to strike down. Whether you prevail or not is of no consequence to you -- you'll win either way. Birth and death in shikantaza becomes a thing of the past and neither have any bearing on you.
Cheap example, but in the first Starwars when Obiwan Kenobi told Darth to strike him down and suggested that he would become "more powerful than you'd ever imagine," the reference here was thoroughly Zen. Obiwan mastered the technique of non-abiding mind, resolved all distinctions by the dissolving of his ego mind through his endless practice and became one with all that is. When one is both everywhere and nowhere, all at once, he can't be killed. This is precisely what Takuan was explaining his book.
Familiar with the Hindu story involving Arjuna and Krishna? Bhagavad Gita? Non-abiding mind is what Krishna was trying to get Arjuna to realize when he sat there on the battlefield labouring over whether he would fight his relatives, lined up on the other side of the battlefield. At the end of the story, Arjuna came to realize that no matter what the outcome, his essence would persist. Victory either way.
So, keep the abiding mind at bay. Don't "meditate" during iaido. Meditation is suppression; controlling thought is ultimately an exercise in futility. If the mind is fixed on your swordsmanship, the presence of the enemy is surpressed from your awareness. You want there to be a perception of everything in gestalt. Let the body perform the action while the mind watches everything passively and without judgement. Take the position as if to say "speak, I am listening" and simply do that without conscious input on your part.
But of course it's easier said than done. Learn to overlearn and I'm sure it'll become easier.
Still striving,
Michael Hodge
Brian Owens
18th March 2006, 23:14
...So, keep the abiding mind at bay. Don't "meditate" during iaido....
I agree (to a point); thus my admonition "If you're meditating, then your mind should be on the meditation...If you're practicing iai, then your mind should be on iai..."
The initial and follow-up questions, as I read them, weren't so much about meditation per se as about mindfulness.
Mushin may be the ultimate goal, but mindfulness during zazen and during iai are, I think, essential first steps.
bert sijben
22nd March 2006, 05:46
I know what is stupid, if your arm is on fire and your asking a question.
I know what is stupid, asking if your question is stupid
I have the answer to both questions, cut the cat in half.
Best laughs to you, but since you make shy and are not stupid, please try some better disguise, when you start to become more true to yourself , you will find that other people also act with sincerity.
Best regards bert sijben
Dull Blade
3rd April 2006, 20:13
Hi Jerimiah,
There has been some great explanation of the difference between a zen mindset and a meditative one, but I will give you a third option based on the example you presented: Catatonic Shock!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatonia
In stories of torture or extreme injury, there is sometimes the common thread of the victim being "somewhere else" and not experiencing the horror they have been confronted with, and in most cases I don't believe this is something they have practised for or attempted to achieve consciously, but the brain shutting down "input" to protect the mind (yes I believe the brain and mind are 2 different things) from the trauma.
So it might not be a trained repsonse, but a primal one that you are asking about.
Oh yeah, one more thing, Bert, why are you cutting a cat in half?
Cheers,
bert sijben
6th April 2006, 05:42
hi dave,
There is a story in japan about a very famous zen boeddhist priest, his name was dogen. at his monestary in kyoto there were two groups of disciples one was living in the north building and one in the south. At one day a straycat walked in and was loved by all. Only the north and the south groups became divided at were the lovely animal should sleep. When they asked the headmaster how to deal with this problem, he took the cat to the kitchen and with one blow cut the cat in half and tossed the pieces at his disciples.
Lovely story isn`t, best regards bert sijben
Garryn
6th April 2006, 09:40
variation on Solomons wisdom.
The two mothers and the one child
Michael Hodge
6th April 2006, 16:28
There is a story in japan about a very famous zen boeddhist priest, his name was dogen.
That person was Nansen, not Dogen. Not an important detail anyway so long as the underlying truth of the mondo is understood. I've seen at least three variations of this story. Comes from Case 14 in the Mumonkan.
Michael Hodge
Michael Hodge
6th April 2006, 17:01
Translated by Zenkei Shibayama.
Once the monks of the Eastern Hall and the Western Hall were disputing about a cat. Nansen, holding up the cat, said, "Monks, if you can say a word of Zen, I will spare the cat. If you cannot, I will kill it!" No monk could answer. Nansen finally killed the cat. In the evening, when Joshu came back, Nansen told him of the accident. Joshu took off his sandal, put it on his head and walked off. Nansen said, "If you had been there, I could have saved the cat!"
Michael Hodge
bert sijben
6th April 2006, 22:59
Thank you michael
I knew my story was a little bit about
best regards bert sijben
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