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Prince Loeffler
7th April 2006, 08:19
I realized that this film must be at least 10 years old ( I could be wrong). But for the sake of review and analysis. Knowing what we know now. Lets put ourselves in Ettish place. How would you fare in this fight:

The Video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6333704509622852997&q=karate&pl=true

MikeWilliams
7th April 2006, 08:58
Fred Ettish has come in for a lot of very unfair criticism over the years for this. He stepped up at very short notice (another fighter had dropped out at the last minute), got into a cage with no pre-fight training or knowledge of his opponent, and lost fair and square.

Under modern MMA rules, the referee would have stopped it pretty quickly, and prevented Fred from having to curl into a ball to protect himself when all other options had failed, and therefore prevented most of the criticism he subsequently had to endure. Bear in mind that, back then, nobody knew what to expect - and the marketing even hinted that death was a possible outcome. You can call Fred naive or foolhardy, but you can't say he was lacking in guts.

Fred Ettish learned his lessons the hard way. He is now a big supporter of MMA and crosstraining, and posts regularly on the UG. By all accounts he is/was a decent karateka too.

Oh, and if we're comparing beatdowns, Scott Morris fared far worse in his UFC2 fight than Fred Ettish did, but didn't receive half the criticism. I ahve never understood that.

Sorry, I've just realised I didn't answer your question. It is my belief that any half-decent BJJ bluebelt with some boxing skills would have given most of the early UFC card a run for their money. Unfortunately, I am not a half-decent bluebelt, and my striking sucks. So I probably would have gone fetal.

:)

Martin H
7th April 2006, 11:59
That is one of the MMA "karate haters" favourite video.
However, few bother to remember that Rhodes was (is) not realy a kickboxer as he is called in that link. He was/is a shorinji ryu karate stylist.
The early ufc was very bad at listing the fighters real art. Gerard Gordeau, who came in at #2 in ufc 1 (loosing to a gracie in the final), was listed as Savate, when he was a kyokushin fighter who had just happened to enter a few savate tournaments and won them.

Either way, Ettish is still training Shorin ryu (Okinawa Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo -to be exact), and as said before, is very much involved with the ufc and mma as a judge and behind the scene.

What he should have done? possibly losened up a little (he looked very rigid), and kept a better guard. Once on the ground, it is hard to say since he apparently were not familliar with grappling.

Prince Loeffler
8th April 2006, 16:53
Hi Guys Thanks for the response. Here's my humble analysis;

In the first minutes into the fight. First, we can see Fred's left or guard down. during the "feel your opponent" phrase, Ettish's left hand keeps coming down while executing the Mae Geri ( Front Kick), so when we look at Frame # 00:38/03:14 seeing I believed that Rhoades took advantage of Ettish unguarded side.

While Rhoades was bombarding Ettish with flurries of punches, Ettish did not have any and all confidence in blocking any of it. Instead, he instinctly just sort tucked his head and backing away. I mean after all those years in Karate, blocks were the the stuff we constantly repeat in our kihon training.

As for his ground defense, I thought was a good form, but I noticed that Ettish tried to make it as "offensive" tactic. He should have taken advantage by getting up while he kept Rhoades at bay.

This are just my personal observations, what do you guys think ?

larsen_huw
8th April 2006, 18:04
Disclaimer: I have NEVER done any grappling/MMA/NHB work, so if i do end up rambling onto that part of the fight, ignore it - chances are I'll be talking rubbish. :)

Fred Ettish had a very open gaurd while kicking. He drops 1 arm completely out the way on both the front and round kicks. However, I don't believe his opponent took any advantage to it.

As Mike told us, Mr Ettish took the fight at short notice with no pre-fight prep work.

He got caught by a good right over the top as part of a left right combo, and backed off. It obviously rattled him, possibly disorientated him. Maybe he forgot he was in a MMA fight - if it wasn't a situation he was used to being in.

As his opponent comes forward, leading with another high right hander, Fred Ettish ducks his head, gets caught round the back of the head with a few punches and half falls on his own accord, half punched to the floor.

From this point Fred Ettish seems to recover his senses, and realise where he is again, but the damage has already been done. He's at a huge disadvantage and proceeds to take the pounding most karateka would take if they were put into that fight in that position.

I am loath to critisise someone who a) has huge balls for stepping into the ring in the first place b) taking so much punishment before tapping out c) is obviously a much better martial artist than myself - however, he seemed a little rusty and didn't know how to react after the first punch to the face and it all went horribly wrong from there.

Prince Loeffler
8th April 2006, 18:12
Disclaimer: I have NEVER done any grappling/MMA/NHB work, so if i do end up rambling onto that part of the fight, ignore it - chances are I'll be talking rubbish. :)

Fred Ettish had a very open gaurd while kicking. He drops 1 arm completely out the way on both the front and round kicks. However, I don't believe his opponent took any advantage to it.

As Mike told us, Mr Ettish took the fight at short notice with no pre-fight prep work.

He got caught by a good right over the top as part of a left right combo, and backed off. It obviously rattled him, possibly disorientated him. Maybe he forgot he was in a MMA fight - if it wasn't a situation he was used to being in.

As his opponent comes forward, leading with another high right hander, Fred Ettish ducks his head, gets caught round the back of the head with a few punches and half falls on his own accord, half punched to the floor.

From this point Fred Ettish seems to recover his senses, and realise where he is again, but the damage has already been done. He's at a huge disadvantage and proceeds to take the pounding most karateka would take if they were put into that fight in that position.

I am loath to critisise someone who a) has huge balls for stepping into the ring in the first place b) taking so much punishment before tapping out c) is obviously a much better martial artist than myself - however, he seemed a little rusty and didn't know how to react after the first punch to the face and it all went horribly wrong from there.


Hi Huw,

This thread is in no way shape or form critisizing Fred Ettish or his art. I applauded tha fact he stepped into that octagon not knowing what was about to happen, regardless if Fred Ettish was prepared or not. I was simply analysing , considering what we know now and how we would re-act if we were in his place is ultimately what I was trying to learn from.

larsen_huw
8th April 2006, 18:25
Sorry Prince, I wasn't implying at all that you (or anyone else in this thread) were critisising Mr Ettish.

I just wanted to make perfectly clear that my observations and opinions were just that, not critisism. It's very easy to pick holes in what Fred Ettish did from the safety of a comfy chair- much harder to try and do better than he did if put in that situation.

I feel this thread has been very objective of his performance, with no "armchair quaterbacking". :)

Prince Loeffler
8th April 2006, 18:30
Sorry Prince, I wasn't implying at all that you (or anyone else in this thread) were critisising Mr Ettish.

I just wanted to make perfectly clear that my observations and opinions were just that, not critisism. It's very easy to pick holes in what Fred Ettish did from the safety of a comfy chair- much harder to try and do better than he did if put in that situation.

I feel this thread has been very objective of his performance, with no "armchair quaterbacking". :)


No need to apologized Huw. I am just glad you brought it up so that others may understand yours and my position regarding this thread.

Yes, its easy to spot the "holes" from the safety of our armchairs, I can perhaps look at it as a football coach who watches old films to find that "holes" in their offensive / defensive plays.

MikeWilliams
8th April 2006, 21:20
Huw - that was a very succinct and well-observed summary of the fight. I'm not sure there's much else to add.

Ettish vs. Rhoads has become an internet legend, but it's not terribly interesting from either a technical or historical viewpoint. Although it was fairly close to a street brawl, I suppose.

The UFC 2 fight that (to my eyes) really highlighted the way the world was heading was Remco Pardoel vs. the highly-fancied Muay Thai fighter Orlando Weit.

Jeff Cook
9th April 2006, 21:51
What rank was Fred at the time of his fight?

It appeared during that fight that he had little or no sparring experience.

Jeff Cook

Prince Loeffler
10th April 2006, 04:27
What rank was Fred at the time of his fight?

It appeared during that fight that he had little or no sparring experience.

Jeff Cook


Hi Jeff, if my memory serves me right I believed it was Godan ( 5th Dan)

In regards to Ettish, here's from the E-budo Archived:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5993.html

powerof0ne
10th April 2006, 04:56
I have to kind of agree, did this guy even have much jiyu kumite experience before getting in the UFC? I used to be solely a karateka(hayashi ha shito ryu)at one time and I can even remember when I got into muay thai...using just my karate because I was new sparring the guys and I was able to apply it somewhat.
I agree that some people can have bad days, but I've had bad days and "lost"..but not to the point of being in a fetal position and being pumelled. I dunno, I really am not impressed with Ettish byt his fight and hopefully he has improved a lot, hopefully.

hectokan
10th April 2006, 14:05
Would Fred Etish even be involved with MMA or crosstrainning if he had never gotten involved with that initial first match?Or would he be a 10th degree black belt today,oblivious,dillusional and full of make believe misconceptions?

hectokan
10th April 2006, 14:47
Would Fred Etish even be involved with MMA or crosstrainning if he had never gotten involved with that initial first match?Or would he be a 10th degree black belt today,oblivious,dillusional and full of make believe misconceptions?


Actually let me rephrase here a little as I re-read my post and acknowledged that I sounded a little bit too harsh.As Mike.W mentioned Fred Etish was a last minute replacement for this fight.He had little time to think,get nervous or even change his training routine.All the credit in the world must go to Mr.Etish for stepping into the octagon on such short notice.

Practicioners with his same type of traditional background in the past have shown interest in participating in these types of MMA matches.What usually happens thou is that with enough time to prepare let's say 3 months these traditional practicioners end up training with people that have experience with this type of fighting.They usually then come to their own self conclusion in training alone(if they seek out proper training)that they might be in way over their heads.Mr Etish on short notice did not have time to change anything but he might not have gone thru with it,if he had realized what he was getting himslef into.

The introduction of No holds barred fighting in this country was a magical time in that nobody was really crosstraining and everyone was representing their own traditional or eclectic style.Most traditional competitors that have a interest or aspire to compete today,seek out proper training and by the time they do step into the ring are not really classified as such anymore because that representation of being a pure tradtionalist would have been dropped thru the realization of proper training by the time they make that first initial step.You are not really representing a traditional art anymore if you spend hours training on your muaythai,wrestling and jiujitsu.Even most of the Gracie's today who some still consider traditionalist from their own art's perspective have been crosstraining lately.

johnst_nhb
10th April 2006, 16:57
I have to kind of agree, did this guy even have much jiyu kumite experience before getting in the UFC? I used to be solely a karateka(hayashi ha shito ryu)at one time and I can even remember when I got into muay thai...using just my karate because I was new sparring the guys and I was able to apply it somewhat.
I agree that some people can have bad days, but I've had bad days and "lost"..but not to the point of being in a fetal position and being pumelled. I dunno, I really am not impressed with Ettish byt his fight and hopefully he has improved a lot, hopefully.

Fred was and is a much better fighter than this short fight shows. And being a close friend, training partner might make me look biased-that's ok. That fight was a LONG time ago and there were not alot of folks stepping up at the time...

powerof0ne
10th April 2006, 21:59
I'll take your word for it John and I guess he just wasn't "fighting his A-game" that night. It's too bad that he never entered the UFC again. I lost once in a knockdown tournament in a cheap way and planned on rematching the lucky sob that won with an illegal way(i'm still mad about it)and was going to enter it again the following year until I found out that he wasn't going to comete anymore..dab nab it!

johnst_nhb
10th April 2006, 22:37
I'll take your word for it John and I guess he just wasn't "fighting his A-game" that night. It's too bad that he never entered the UFC again. I lost once in a knockdown tournament in a cheap way and planned on rematching the lucky sob that won with an illegal way(i'm still mad about it)and was going to enter it again the following year until I found out that he wasn't going to comete anymore..dab nab it!

Yeah he tried and tried to get back in the UFC but things were changing so quickly then...they (davie or zuffa) just did not make it happen. Fred is a HUGE supporter of MMA and does quite a few commentary and judging and reffing for regional shows...

Jeff Cook
11th April 2006, 00:10
Thanks for your input, John. I would love to sit down and pick Fred's brain on this; I have lots of questions concerning his methods for that fight.

He does have a pretty big set of cajones, and I commend him for not tucking his tail between his legs and going into hiding after that fight.

Jeff Cook

Goju Man
18th April 2006, 02:02
Hello everyone, nice topic. Allow me to throw in my nickel, ( heck gas keeps going up so should my opinion :) ) First off, kudos to Fred for stepping in there on short notice or not, it takes guts. My analogy of his fighting style that night was pretty obvious imo, lack of reality and contact in his fighting training. (kumite) The front kick he was throwing of his front leg from an almost cat stance would never do any real damage, it is very good for a quick point though. When you look at any fighter from a kyokushin type school you see something completely different.