View Full Version : Missing Material in my Resource

10th April 2006, 12:21
Dear Folks:

I feel a bit as though the rug has been pulled out from under me. Perhaps there are researchers who might be able to recommend some options for me.

I have been doing research into the nature of how Koreans come to determine what information is used and what material is discarded in establishing their Martial Traditions over the centuries. Currently the venue that I am examining is the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI (lit: "Comprehensive Illustated Manual of Martial Arts") recently translated by Dr. Sang H Kim (See: Turtle Press; 2000). The KWON BUP (Lit: "Fist Method") is stated to be drawn from the Boxing Canon of General Qi, Ji-guang's training manual, JIN XIAO SHIN SHU (lit: "Manual of New Training Methods") published in 1568. Actually there is only the most cursory correlation between the two works but that view is for another post sometime, yes?

The problem that I have is that General Qi-s manual is comprised of some 32 stanzas each of which speaks to the high-points of some approach to Chinese Boxing his troops were to use for their h2h training (See: Douglas Wile). The copy of the manual that I am using courtesy of an interlibrary loan has only 24 stanzas. Please note that I am not speaking of pages missing from the text. I have checked and rechecked the pagination and all of the pages are there. Rather, apparently the copy of the manual that I have was published missing 8 of the 32 stanzas.

Certainly I have thought about approaching other libraries through an academic library rather than a public library. However I have never been in a position where I have had to stipulate that a library first check a book to make sure that the person who published the book included everything that was suppose to be there. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Best Wishes,


Joseph Svinth
12th April 2006, 05:19
Probably your best bet will be to try to acquire multiple copies, and see where the changes started working in over time. Back in the old days, these texts were often hand-copied.

BTW, have you seen Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo, "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals" (North Atlantic, 2005)? I think you'd like it.

12th April 2006, 12:38
Thanks, Joe.

No, I had not seen that book but you're right to think that I would be interested.

BTW: I was surprised to learn that the Library of Congress does not loan their holdings out. I mention this because I had thought that would have been an easy answer as they have several copies of varying origins. Have you ever had occasion to work with them? Do you know about their policies regarding their holdings? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,


Joseph Svinth
13th April 2006, 02:11
I've never been to LoC, but am not surprised to learn that you have to physically be in the building to access the library's collections. Many libraries have this for their closed stack materials. Also, there are budgetary concerns. Even at media rates, shipping books gets expensive.

For loans, check the online catalogs at Harvard, University of Washington, UCLA, Stanford, Duke, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Yale, and so on. These schools have enormous Asian libraries, and I believe that they will participate in interlibrary loan. If not, then comparatively close Asian studies libraries include University of Illinois at Urbana, http://www.library.uiuc.edu/administration/collections/tools/developementstatement/east_asian_studies.htm , and University of Chicago, http://ceas.uchicago.edu/resource/eastasiancollection.html . Chicago is by far the larger collection. University of Michigan also has a large collection.

See also http://newton.uor.edu/departments&programs/asianstudiesdept/general-lib.html and http://coombs.anu.edu.au .

BTW, I just checked the Chicago catalogue. They have a couple recent versions, neither of which is checked out.

Title: Ji xiao xin shu / Qi Jiguang zhu ; Sheng Dongling dian jiao.
紀效 新書 / 戚 繼光 著 ; 盛 冬 點校.
Author: Qi, Jiguang, 1528-1587.
戚 繼光, 1528-1587.
Imprint: Beijing : Zhonghua shu ju : Xin hua shu dian Beijing fa xing suo fa xing, 1996.
北京 : 中華 書局 : 新華 書店 北京 發行所 發行, 1996.

Title: Qi Shabao zou yi / Qi Jiguang zhuan ; Zhang Dexin jiao shi.
戚 少保 奏議 / 戚 繼光 撰 ; 張 德信 校釋.
Author: Qi, Jiguang, 1528-1587.
戚 繼光, 1528-1587.
Series: Qi Jiguang yan jiu cong shu
Qi Jiquang wen ji
Qi, Jiguang, 1528-1587. Selections. 2001.
Imprint: Beijing : Zhonghua shu ju, 2001.
北京 : 中華 書局, 2001.

University of Washington used to have a copy published in 1938. It's missing. (See why LoC is nervous about loans?)

UCLA has a bunch of copies. One is from 1920, but the one from 1800 is non-circulating. I bet you'd need to wear gloves, too, and have absolutely no pens in your possession, to even look at that puppy.

13th April 2006, 15:00
Many Thanks.

The Reference Librarian at the local Public Library is a Univ of Mich alum so there is a good chance there.

University of Chicago would be a great opportunity even if it means a bit of a drive. They are pretty uncooperative about having non-Univ people coming into their collection, though. Probably shades of what you alluded to with the L of C. Non-Univ people pay for access to the library for the day, but even then there are restrictions about which areas are accessible.

Since I teach part-time at a Community College I may talk to the librarians there to see if I can develop some sort of relationship with them. Maybe they know of some "back-doors" into these more prestigious institutions. OTOH, are you familiar with any libraries that have some sort of "non-alum subscription program", as it were? Actually I wouldn't mind paying a yearly subscription it it meant I could get access to someplace like Columbia or UCLA. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Joseph Svinth
14th April 2006, 06:51
I believe University of Washington lets non-alumni pay cash for a library card. But you can browse the stacks for free, and if something is under lock'n'key, you can still ask for it.

I know, that means you'd have to be in Seattle, but there are worse fates.

South Everett, for instance.

17th April 2006, 01:34
".....BTW, have you seen Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo, "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals" (North Atlantic, 2005)? I think you'd like it....."

Got it in Friday's mail! You were right, Joe; its a great read! I'd love to know how you keep stumbling over these terrific resources. I'm beginning to suspect you have some special arrangement with R.R. Bowker to screen any new ISBN applications for "best reads". Does the arrangement include a list of birthdays for all of the president's kids? :-)

BTW: Are you still taking contributions for the timeline on EJMAS?

Best Wishes,


Joseph Svinth
17th April 2006, 04:48
Earlier versions of several chapters of the book appear at EJMAS, so I went out and bought a copy.

You're right, it is about time that I started thinking about a major overhaul of the chronology. It's been a couple years since I've done even a minor update, and research continues. So, if you have corrections, send them along. And, if you have enough for a full article, send that, too.

BTW, I recently started updating my list of boxing fatalities by going through http://www.newspaperarchive.com/DesktopDefault.aspx , and that's been keeping me fairly busy. If you haven't checked them out, do -- it's just $24.95 a year for the first year, $49.95 a year after that, and it's a great deal if you like reading old newspapers. (And if you say I referred you, then I get an extra month, too!)

18th April 2006, 16:48
Just a follow-up to our exchange:

Access to Univ of Chicago East Asian holdings (Regenstein Library) can be had for non-student/non-faculty/non-affiliated resident of Illinois both inside and outside of the city of Chicago. Access is 5 free visits per 1st Qtr and then $75/Qtr after that. Alternately a person can pay $15/week for unlimited access to Univerity holdings at the library within Library hours. There are NO provisions for borrowing or inter-library loans attached to this subscription.

There are ample affiliated organizations who have reciprocal agreements with the University. As one might expect almost all of these are organizations of Higher Learning (IE. Northwestern Univ; Univ of Ill. etc etc) or connected to recognized professions (IE. Illinois Bar Association; American Medical Assn.)

Commuting expense from where I live using Public Transportation is about $20USD R-T and means about 2 hours one-way on train, then city bus.

I hope no one still thinks that conducting research is for sissies or the faint of heart. ;-)

BTW: Follow-up on book recommendation:

Did you have an opinion on the various individuals identified as sound researchers in that book, Joe? The reason I ask is that in the chapter on Chinese researchers the authors give high praise to Tang Hao and his various writings. However one of the works Tang Hao was said to have debunked was the translation done by Robert Smith. I find this curious as in the next chapter on Non-Chinese researchers Robert Smith is lauded as one of the best. Am I hearing mixed signals, confusing "Robert Smith's or is there a special distinction being made of which I am not aware? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,


Joseph Svinth
19th April 2006, 01:31
I don't read Chinese, so I haven't a clue who does good translations and who does only mediocre translations. So, the best I can suggest is to put books side by side, and read them together, looking for the differences in translation to give you an idea of the subtleties that are lost in the translation.

As far as I know, Robert W. Smith doesn't read Chinese especially well. Instead, my guess is that he probably worked a deal where somebody translated assorted texts for him.

Also, remember that RWS was writing 40 years ago. Lots of research has been done since then. So, for current stuff, try Stanley Henning, Andrew Morris, and so on.

Haven't heard of Morris? Me neither, 'til Stan Henning turned me on to his work. Morris' book is "Marrow of the Nation: A History of Sport and Physical Culture in Republican China," Berkeley: University of California Press, 2004. The reason this book is so useful is that it includes a full chapter on the development of martial arts in China during the period 1880-1940.


Research isn't cheap, either. New York Times' website is fun, but it costs at least $1.20 per copy. But, on the up side, it does beat watching rolls of microfilm scroll by.

19th April 2006, 14:45
Thanks, Joe.

Likewise, I noticed that the Guo/Kennedy book also plugged Lion's in Taiwan as a resource for republished (Chinese?) martial arts manuals and Jarek Szymanski ("Inside China") for his offerings in lesser-known CMA DVD/Books/Tapes. Also I noticed that there has been a surge of DVD-s on the market in the last 3 years or so. I mention this because I made a purchase of what I believed were three separate but related disks only to find a huge amount of overlap. Guess this gets filed in the ol' "caveat emptor" bin, yes?

BTW: I wouldn't mind checking Morris for greater insight into a conflict I saw alluded to in an article regarding the introduction of Western pedagogy to the Asian educational system. Apparently Western training theory and traditional Asian training theory (especially the role of physical conditioning) banged into each other on the expanding field of nationalism along the Pacific Rim. I knew of Kano in Japan, of course, but had not understood how this conflict influenced the nature of military and civilian academy's Phys Ed culture in China and the shaping of the Republic's approach to reshaping Wu Wei into the Wushu.


Best Wishes,


Joseph Svinth
20th April 2006, 02:54
If you're seriously interested in this, then the Far Eastern Championship Games and the YMCA's role in developing sport in Asia are topics worth exploring. See also Stan Henning's chapter in "Martial Arts in the Modern World."

Also worth examining are changing ideas regarding what to do during military or paramilitary training. Ma Liang is a case in point. In Shanghai, take a look at the Tongs and Triads. Chiang Kai-shek really did make mob bosses into generals, and then use the gangsters as strikebreakers. You see similar things in SCAP-era Japan, actually. Fairbairn links here, on the law enforcement side of things.

20th April 2006, 14:28
"..If you're seriously interested in this, then the Far Eastern Championship Games and the YMCA's role in developing sport in Asia are topics worth exploring. See also Stan Henning's chapter in "Martial Arts in the Modern World."


I am repeatedly amazed at the largesse enjoyed by the YMCA in Korea even during the Occupation. Certainly their various projects in the rural areas to increase hygiene, education and greater cooperation among the farmers could only be seen as helping the various goals of the Japanese administration (See: Review of Korean Studies). However I no longer wonder that so many connections can be found between MA practice in YMCA settings and the later traditions that developed out of these activities into what we have today. Good stuff.

BTW: In the matter of the various movements of the early 20th Century I alluded to the possibility that the originator of the Hapkido tradition in Korea might have been hired muscle along with a number of other folks in connection with the nationalist fervor of the Aizu clan. My thought was that perhaps these ultra-nationalists may have retained the services of Korean and Okinawan "muscle" for breaking up activities and intimidating opposition. I'm afraid the concept was met with less than warm support by the Hapkido community. No doubt they were "not amused".

Best Wishes,


Joseph Svinth
21st April 2006, 03:03
Syngman Rhee was a teacher at the Seoul YMCA.





From http://www.hawaii.edu/korea/bibliography/late_19thC_thru_1945-japan_china_relations.htm : De Ceuster, Koen. “Wholesome Education and Sound Leisure: The YMCA Sports Programme in Colonial Korea.” European Journal of East Asian Studies 2:1 (2003): 53-88.

If you want a field trip, try University of Minnesota: http://special.lib.umn.edu/ymca/ .

28th April 2006, 14:18

This is embarrassing to admit.

I was rereading Wile (See: Tai Chi's Ancestors) and he plainly states that copies of Gen Qi's manual, specifically the Boxing Canon is repeatedly found to be missing material. Wile identifies these as stanzas 15 through 24, which are, in fact the ones I am missing. Wile goes on to say that this material was rediscovered in 1956 by Ku Liu-hsin in Mao's WU BEI SHI. Not sure how I failed to recall all of this. Damn, got egg all over everything.....!

Interesting side-light, though.

Not long ago there was a research effort being made by members on the WARRIOR-SCHOLAR Forum and one of the folks sent out a copy of a recently published copy of a form reportedly practiced by the Qi family. The publisher was The Academy Press Company of Hong Kong. Interestingly, the form contains all 32 stanzas of General Qi's writing and some very well-done transitional drawings that knit the various postures and methods together. What remains is to use this, then, to relate the Korean material to the Chinese. Once this particular resource has been ruled-out completely it will remain only to uncover where the actual movements came from--- probably Long Fist or Tai Chi. The conclusion would then follow that while the Koreans invoked General Qi for his age and prestige they probably drew on later traditions for practical expression of General Qi's principles. Film at eleven.

Best Wishes,


Joseph Svinth
7th May 2006, 01:00
Bruce --

"General Qi Jiguang's Approach to Martial Arts Training", Vol. 3, No. 2, 1995, in the Taijiquan Journal.