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E.elemental
25th April 2006, 19:03
Okey so most of you know what Manji sai is, and most likely Nunte bo also. But now I have found a Nunte sai.. that is to be put on a bo for a nunte bo? Well anyway, what differs is their length as you can see in the pictures of shureido two kinds of Manji/Nunte sai.

Have any of you heard of the expression Nunte sai before? And are there other names of this weapon that you know of?

http://www.kamikazeweb.com/index.php?action=articles&id=056

As I understand not many does use the Nunte bo. But why? Why has this weapon come in the shadows of the others? Have there not been a kata for the weapon or what? I have seen Matayoshi Shimpo use it but not many other serious practitioners. I also know that many debate of the origin of the nunte bo.. but does this affect its popularity?

All thought welcome. :)

Kindest regards

Shikiyanaka
27th April 2006, 18:19
Hi Patrik-san,

if there's is an Okinawan weapon to learn there should be a kata. I also only have heard of Matayoshi Kobudo using it. I never saw the Kata, but Matayoshi Kobudo is very practical (in my eyes); their Kata have all the nessesary techniques you need to understand the use of the weapon. From this, anyone studying it at any place and any time should be able to extract the application and even expand on it. That's what is called tradition I think. I guess if you would learn the Matayoshi Nunti Kata you would quickly understand how it is used (better than developing the wheel one more time by yourself :) ).

One may argue about wether Nunte Bo is an "old tradition" or not (I mean classification of techniques in Kata). Manji Sai is a new tradition (20. th century); Nunchaku, Tekko, Suruchin, Tinbe have only been categorized in Kata in the 20 th century. I guess Nunte Bo also.

If you read the 19th century narratives of western visitors to Okinawa, there are mentioned some things which could have been the Nunti Bo. Here are some:

(Hall 1818, p. 140-41) "At the foot of the hill there was a little cottage, consisting of two parts, made of wattled rattans, connected by a light open bamboo roof, so covered with a large leaved creeper as to afford a complete shelter from the sun. The cottage, which was thatched, was enveloped in creepers, encircled by the usual rattan fence at two or three yards distance. One of the wings was occupied by goats; the other, which was dark, seemed to belong to the people, who had deserted at our approach. There being only a small hole in the wall to admit light and air, and to allow the smoke to escape, every thing inside was black and dirty. Two spears hung on one side, which, upon enquiry afterwards, we were told were for striking fish."

(Hall 1818, p. 150-51) "We had scarcely landed when the natives began to assemble in groups on the top of the cliffs, and in a short time they came down to us, most of them carrying long poles in their hands; we were sufficiently aware of their inoffensive character to have no apprehension of their intentions, otherwise their appearance would have been somewhat formidable. There was no person of rank among them; they were communicative and full of curiosity, which difference in manner from the inhabitants on the shores of Port Melville may have arisen from these people knowing something of us by reports from Napakiang [note: harbor of Naha], which is not above ten miles distant. It was to be expected that we should have become a topic of discourse at so short a distance, and probably what was said of us would be favourable, or at all events such as would excite curiosity rather than fear. Most of these people had fish spears tatooed on their arms in the form of a trident, with rude barbs. When drawn on the right arm it is called "Odeemaw;" when on the left, "Toga." This ist he only instance we have met with of this practice. Our curiosity was farther excited by the appearance of these spears, from the circumstance of our never having seen any warlike weapon on this island; but the people in-variably called them "Eo stitchee" (fish spear)."

(Clifford, Loo Chooan Dictionary Part 1):
"Spear to catch fish with Toga oyoong."

Last but not least:
(Beechey 1831, p. 141; on hunting dolphin)
"If the fish happened to be large, the line was carefully drawn in, and they were harpooned with an instrument which every canoe carried fort his purpose."

Think of large fish like dolphins or maybe sharks and the necessity to 1. hold them back to not hit/bite you while they flip around, and 2. harpoon them, and 3. draw them into the boat and pin them.

CEB
27th April 2006, 18:24
FWIW We have a Nunte-Bo kata....Shirotaru no Nunte-Bo

Origin ..... I have no idea.

Shikiyanaka
27th April 2006, 18:47
Hi Ed,

what style?

CEB
27th April 2006, 19:12
Hi Ed,

what style?
It is village Kobudo, Not one of the major Kobudo systems.

I think it is from Matsumura Kempo. It came to us from Mr. Penland. Back in the 90s US teachers were looking or searching for something and kept switching between villiage systems. So.the kata may have came from KenshinKan or may have come from Matsumura Kempo/Kobudo or may be someone in the US made it up based on a version of Shirotaru no Kun. At the time MR. Penland was still in Mr. Kuda's organization so I assume it is a Matsumura Kempo form.

The kata seems like a reasonable application of the Nunte Bo to me. Just dont whack yourself on the ankle bone with the Nunte. That hurts.

GojuMaster
27th April 2006, 20:14
Andreas,

I hope you are well.

It's been my experience in Matayoshi Kobudo that some people practice / teach a specific Nunti-bo kata, while most practice the weapon using either Choun-No-Kun or Chikin (Tsuken) No Kun, with some specific alteration of the forms to keep "business" end of the weapon near the "bad guy".

Best Regards,

Russ


Hi Patrik-san,

if there's is an Okinawan weapon to learn there should be a kata. I also only have heard of Matayoshi Kobudo using it. I never saw the Kata, but Matayoshi Kobudo is very practical (in my eyes); their Kata have all the nessesary techniques you need to understand the use of the weapon. From this, anyone studying it at any place and any time should be able to extract the application and even expand on it. That's what is called tradition I think. I guess if you would learn the Matayoshi Nunti Kata you would quickly understand how it is used (better than developing the wheel one more time by yourself :) ).

One may argue about wether Nunte Bo is an "old tradition" or not (I mean classification of techniques in Kata). Manji Sai is a new tradition (20. th century); Nunchaku, Tekko, Suruchin, Tinbe have only been categorized in Kata in the 20 th century. I guess Nunte Bo also.

If you read the 19th century narratives of western visitors to Okinawa, there are mentioned some things which could have been the Nunti Bo. Here are some:

(Hall 1818, p. 140-41) "At the foot of the hill there was a little cottage, consisting of two parts, made of wattled rattans, connected by a light open bamboo roof, so covered with a large leaved creeper as to afford a complete shelter from the sun. The cottage, which was thatched, was enveloped in creepers, encircled by the usual rattan fence at two or three yards distance. One of the wings was occupied by goats; the other, which was dark, seemed to belong to the people, who had deserted at our approach. There being only a small hole in the wall to admit light and air, and to allow the smoke to escape, every thing inside was black and dirty. Two spears hung on one side, which, upon enquiry afterwards, we were told were for striking fish."

(Hall 1818, p. 150-51) "We had scarcely landed when the natives began to assemble in groups on the top of the cliffs, and in a short time they came down to us, most of them carrying long poles in their hands; we were sufficiently aware of their inoffensive character to have no apprehension of their intentions, otherwise their appearance would have been somewhat formidable. There was no person of rank among them; they were communicative and full of curiosity, which difference in manner from the inhabitants on the shores of Port Melville may have arisen from these people knowing something of us by reports from Napakiang [note: harbor of Naha], which is not above ten miles distant. It was to be expected that we should have become a topic of discourse at so short a distance, and probably what was said of us would be favourable, or at all events such as would excite curiosity rather than fear. Most of these people had fish spears tatooed on their arms in the form of a trident, with rude barbs. When drawn on the right arm it is called "Odeemaw;" when on the left, "Toga." This ist he only instance we have met with of this practice. Our curiosity was farther excited by the appearance of these spears, from the circumstance of our never having seen any warlike weapon on this island; but the people in-variably called them "Eo stitchee" (fish spear)."

(Clifford, Loo Chooan Dictionary Part 1):
"Spear to catch fish with Toga oyoong."

Last but not least:
(Beechey 1831, p. 141; on hunting dolphin)
"If the fish happened to be large, the line was carefully drawn in, and they were harpooned with an instrument which every canoe carried fort his purpose."

Think of large fish like dolphins or maybe sharks and the necessity to 1. hold them back to not hit/bite you while they flip around, and 2. harpoon them, and 3. draw them into the boat and pin them.

GojuMaster
27th April 2006, 20:16
Good description, since the weapon is 1/2 trident, 1/2 hook.

That makes it quite a handy tool.




Last but not least:
(Beechey 1831, p. 141; on hunting dolphin)
"If the fish happened to be large, the line was carefully drawn in, and they were harpooned with an instrument which every canoe carried fort his purpose."

Think of large fish like dolphins or maybe sharks and the necessity to 1. hold them back to not hit/bite you while they flip around, and 2. harpoon them, and 3. draw them into the boat and pin them.

CEB
28th April 2006, 15:56
Andreas,

I hope you are well.

It's been my experience in Matayoshi Kobudo that some people practice / teach a specific Nunti-bo kata, while most practice the weapon using either Choun-No-Kun or Chikin (Tsuken) No Kun, with some specific alteration of the forms to keep "business" end of the weapon near the "bad guy".

Best Regards,

Russ

Hi Russ,

Do they differentiate the form by referring to it as Choun No Nunte-Bo? etc.

Chikin Bo done with Nunte is really cool. The kata by design keeps the business always to the front. Tsuken no Kamae I was taught comes from the spear. The bo is held over the shoulder to keep the business in front of you so you can keep your eye on it. This helps prevent you from cutting your buddies ear off by accident. :D It is basically good muzzle control.

The nunte really adds something to kake uke execution. It is the hook that really hooks. Have a good weekend.

GojuMaster
28th April 2006, 19:35
Ed,

Inconsistency, of course, is the "norm" ;-)

I've seen it referred to as that as well as simply "Nunti-bo".

Regarding Tsuken (and you're referring to the Matsumura version, right?), do you start with the hook facing down, with the handle up on the shoulder?

Best Regards,

Russ


Hi Russ,

Do they differentiate the form by referring to it as Choun No Nunte-Bo? etc.

Chikin Bo done with Nunte is really cool. The kata by design keeps the business always to the front. Tsuken no Kamae I was taught comes from the spear. The bo is held over the shoulder to keep the business in front of you so you can keep your eye on it. This helps prevent you from cutting your buddies ear off by accident. :D It is basically good muzzle control.

The nunte really adds something to kake uke execution. It is the hook that really hooks. Have a good weekend.

CEB
28th April 2006, 19:44
The Business end is facing down. Dojo story is it comes from the spear and not the Nunte but the Nunte is fun to play with.

One explanation for the Kobudo coming from Tsuken Jima was that a garrison was maintained there. Primary purpose of the soldiers were to put down any civil insurrections so the garrison was kept away from the Ryukyu population so they would not get freindly with the locals.

Again this is all dojo stories. I mean we can't even PROVE Nabe Matsumura even existed let alone all this other stuff as to why things were done and where things came from so....like everything else, Who knows.

The only thing consistent is Inconsistency. :D

Yes it is the Matsumura version.

Have a good weekend.

GojuMaster
5th May 2006, 20:01
Ed,

Thanks for the info. At the moment, my weapon collection at my dojo only consists of bo, sai, tonfa, nunchaku, kama, and chizikunbo. I still need to get Kuwa, Eku, Nunti, Sansetsukon, Tekko, Manji Sai, and the list goes on...

Catch you later,

Russ


The Business end is facing down. Dojo story is it comes from the spear and not the Nunte but the Nunte is fun to play with.

One explanation for the Kobudo coming from Tsuken Jima was that a garrison was maintained there. Primary purpose of the soldiers were to put down any civil insurrections so the garrison was kept away from the Ryukyu population so they would not get freindly with the locals.

Again this is all dojo stories. I mean we can't even PROVE Nabe Matsumura even existed let alone all this other stuff as to why things were done and where things came from so....like everything else, Who knows.

The only thing consistent is Inconsistency. :D

Yes it is the Matsumura version.

Have a good weekend.