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Prince Loeffler
9th May 2006, 07:51
Here's a video of Man vs Chimp nature. Analyze this vids and tell us how would you do things differently with all your training ?

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vE3VQdLa4&search=animal%20attack

Prince Loeffler
9th May 2006, 08:06
Although these are trained police dogs. There is always a posibility of being attacked by one of these dogs by mistake. How would you get out of it ?

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bkxvcHdXDCI&search=dog%20attack

SFE
11th May 2006, 05:05
Here's a video of Man vs Chimp nature. Analyze this vids and tell us how would you do things differently with all your training ?

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vE3VQdLa4&search=animal%20attack

I would always fight a monkey near water.

Seriously, I think that the vid makes it clear that a "friend" can become your "foe" at any moment.

I say this with the caveat that the "friend" would be a stranger in reality (animals can't speak with us to learn our intentions), perhaps a dude you met at a bar or what not. You unknowingly speak to his girlfriend or say something bad about another dude that you didn't know was with him, even to just make a joke, and then suddenly he's not so friendly anymore.

That's what stuck out to me.

SFE
11th May 2006, 05:10
Although these are trained police dogs. There is always a posibility of being attacked by one of these dogs by mistake. How would you get out of it ?

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=bkxvcHdXDCI&search=dog%20attack

I've seen this vid before.

I would have to do my best to learn dog speak for "I submit!!"

It might be a catch 22 tho. I've heard that attacking a K9 unit dog is treated just as if you were attacking the officer who handles it. I would be worried about getting shot for trying to stop the dog with real force (punching, gouging of eyes, tearing ears ect.) so I would probably just try and take it until I could speak to a human.

Prince Loeffler
11th May 2006, 08:26
I've seen this vid before.

I would have to do my best to learn dog speak for "I submit!!"

It might be a catch 22 tho. I've heard that attacking a K9 unit dog is treated just as if you were attacking the officer who handles it. I would be worried about getting shot for trying to stop the dog with real force (punching, gouging of eyes, tearing ears ect.) so I would probably just try and take it until I could speak to a human.

Hi Steve,

Lets assume that the Dog is not a member of the police department. I am sure we have seen dogs trained as fighting dogs by gangs. How does one be able to defend himself / herself against this kind of attack ?

It makes kind of an interesting discussion as there is a video available for us to analyze.

gmanry
11th May 2006, 15:02
A rear naked choke will work on a dog pretty much the same way it does on a human. You can even get your hooks in on a dog. I have had to do it on a dog NOT trained as a fighting dog. I didn't have to take it to unconsciousness, the dog pretty much went immediately docile when I got him in the position, but I had it about 3/4 on and was proceeding to crank it down all the way.

With fighting dogs, and this is purely speculation, you may have to be ready to sacrifice an arm. If you offer the arm so that they take the inside and jam it really hard into their mouth, you can lessen the amount that they can clamp down. This gives you the ability to take their back and get the RNC. Make it your non-dominant arm. Also, if you have a knife, this position is good to work from and gives you all sorts of targets, just like on a person.

Hook the legs around the belly and apply the choke, they will go nighty night. Dogs do not know what to do on their backs and it is a submissive position for them.

I have been told, but can't verify, that you can dislocate the forelegs from this position too. Hook both arms through the forward armpits and wedge outward with everything you've got. I don't buy that one as much. If I tried it, I would anchor one side and work on the other leg. The choke works if you can get it in.

Come to think of it, there is no reason why an americana would not work on a dog. It would break the shoulder and not their elbow depending on the angle.

In the end striking dogs is not smart. They are much denser muscularly than we are. Grappling with them is more effective. It minimizes their ability to bite. Their claws are not so effective (unlike cats) and they don't deal well with it. I wrestle with my 55lb dog a lot, not a big dog, but I notice it really gets him off guard when I take his back.

gmanry
11th May 2006, 15:13
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=559145

Apparently the water comment is right, they are not buoyant due to their bone and muscle density.

However they are 4 to 7 times stronger than we are and have fangs.

Mark Murray
11th May 2006, 15:20
This is an excerpt from my initial post on a thread on AikiWeb.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=134607

I will note that there is a difference between dogs and hybrids and wolves. Still, I played with mine and watched how they "fought" when playing. They had very good movement, quickness, knowledge of where to strike, used their paws, used their body, applied feints, and unless they were thoroughly subdued then being on their back didn't mean they stopped.



I'm going to change the subject, but I promise there is a point to all this. A few years ago, I had two wolf hybrids. The older one I helped raise with his mother. When the mother died, we were both hit hard. I found another hybrid pup. The older one was about five. Fast forward to a couple of years and the older one is now seven and the younger one is two. The older one weighs in at about 90 pounds and the older one has filled out to about 125 pounds. The young one is starting to assert some dominance on the older one. Well, one night, I heard some growling and fighting and looked into the back pen. They each had one end of a raccoon. I went outside and stepped near them to put a stop to it. For some reason, the dead raccoon was on the ground between them when I got there. The young one had his ears back, his hackles up, and fangs bared. And let me tell you that there was *NO* larger nor more fearsome thing in the whole world at that time (I've been that close to an enraged bear, but that's another time and story) for me. You see, I was close enough that I could reach out and touch him. He wasn't directing his fearsome-ness at me. No, it was directed at the older one. But, at that point, I came to realize just how fragile a human can be. I realized that if he ever directed that towards me (he never did), the end result well, to be frank, I didn't give myself all that much chance.

Today, I read the story here:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060311/D8G9D62G0.html
An alpha male was caught unaware by eight wolves from another pack. It wasn't even a contest really. The alpha male was killed. I don't know how much anyone reading this knows about wolves, but you don't get to be an alpha male by being slow, weak, or stupid. And I don't know how many of you have ever gotten close to a wolf, let alone one that isn't happy with you. A trip to the zoo doesn't count. But, given an alpha male versus an unarmed human, my money is on the alpha male.

Rob Alvelais
11th May 2006, 17:00
OMG! Someone shoot the idiot before he multiplies!

Rob



Here's a video of Man vs Chimp nature. Analyze this vids and tell us how would you do things differently with all your training ?

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vE3VQdLa4&search=animal%20attack

Prince Loeffler
11th May 2006, 17:27
OMG! Someone shoot the idiot before he multiplies!

Rob


I wondered what rank that Chimp is in Judo ?? :) :) Or perhaps Sumo :p

gmanry
11th May 2006, 17:32
OMG! Someone shoot the idiot before he multiplies!

Yeah, living in Wyoming, my wife and I have had the opportunity to watch a lot of stupid people/animal interactions. In our experience moose are probably the most dangerous and unpredictable animals, even more so than a bear in some ways. In Yellowstone, we regularly pull over to watch idiots and have the video camera ready. We used to warn them, but most of the time they just flip you off or ignore you. So, we figure we will cash in on a few moments of internet fame and can call the meat wagon when it is all over.

gmanry
11th May 2006, 17:37
Dogs being on their back will not stop them from fighting, but you being belly to back with them and their legs up really does confuse them and make them very hesitant/docile.

I have tried this with 3 or four dogs of different breeds. Can't say what a wolf would do, but Rotweilers, labradors, and a big lab mutt all reacted the same.

I would like to also point out that a choke works better on long necked dogs, rotzies may not be as susceptible nor pitbulls. German shephards and all the hunting dogs and houds would be easier to apply an RNC to.

Also, I remember somebody telling me that a good grip on the larynx can allow you to choke them out, but that puts me too close to the business end of the dog for comfort.

Lastly, this is not a guarantee, and if the dog is angry, you will probably get bit. Think of it as you would a knife encounter. You will get hurt.

Prince Loeffler
12th May 2006, 06:26
I would like to also point out that a choke works better on long necked dogs, rotzies may not be as susceptible nor pitbulls.

Pitbulls and Rotweillers are often the most common animals involved in attacks against humans. ( Disclaimer: I am not anti Pitbull and Rotweillers nor do I believed that theyare born to be mean and evil dogs, so back off with the flame or else I'll bite ya ! :) :) )

Now back to the topic, what are your chances against these two types of dogs if RNC or strikes are ineffective defense against them ?

Maro
12th May 2006, 08:01
When I was around 15 I was staying at RAF Benson. We took a tour of the RAF Police dog training unit. Being Cadets, the RAF guys rapidly suited us up in the "Carpet Suits" and led us into a training area.

I got jumped by an Alsatian. I couldn't have defended myself now let alone then. Seriously eye-opening.

gmanry
12th May 2006, 15:27
I am not sure that is exactly true, it may be. It is certainly true that they are "perceived" as being the most commonly violent dogs. Chows are very nasty and statistically there are more bites from chows, I am willing to bet.

Chokes can work on these dogs, but it is more difficult because of their structure. Pitbulls would be the worst. Rotweilers, imo, have that bucket head and you can still set in a choke, but not as good as you can against a long necked dog.

If I was in a spot with a pitbull, I would still pull it on its back to my belly. Dogs lose their base just like humans. The really dangerous thing about dog bits is not the bite (yes, it really hurts), but the digging in with four very powerful legs and yanking you around. If you can stop them from getting that leverage, you can prevent a lot of damage.

I would like to make it clear that I have used this maneuver on a dog, but not on a dog that was latched onto me. So, your mileage may vary.

If I had a knife, I would just go to work. I frequently do carry a knife to open shipping packages and often have it on me. You can bleed a dog like any animal if you know your anatomy.

Of course, this is all premised on you not pooping your pants in panic.

gmanry
12th May 2006, 15:33
When I was around 15 I was staying at RAF Benson. We took a tour of the RAF Police dog training unit. Being Cadets, the RAF guys rapidly suited us up in the "Carpet Suits" and led us into a training area.

Yeah, trained dogs are scary. However, there are people who do train to kill police/military dogs. These are typically not nice people.

One thing I notice is that people naturally fall back away from the dog. When it leaps you can step in or to the side and change the dogs attack angle. This would, again, be premised on NOT going into blind panic. It would take a very strong will to win, and I am not saying this is easy at all. Think of it as best chance type stuff not sure thing type stuff.

If you have only encountered a violent dog once, the impression you have is quite natural. They are very strong, fast, and sharp.

Texasmic
12th May 2006, 15:45
Here's a video of Man vs Chimp nature. Analyze this vids and tell us how would you do things differently with all your training ?

http://www3.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5vE3VQdLa4&search=animal%20attack

303 Enfield (from the boat!)

sneo
12th May 2006, 23:16
Couldn't believe the speed and focus of the dog attack. Escape and evasion manual stated that you'd be better off clubbing an attack dog with your rifle than trying to shoot it; now I know why.

As to choking out a dog or holding it on its back, I used to have a 35kg(77lb) English bull terrier and it was just about impossible to restrain him when he was in rush about madly mode. Would fight strangles with every thing he had, ditto for trying to hold him on his back. Eventhough he never tried to bite me(just a big game for him), I was scratched and gouged on all occasions-watch out for the dew claws.

However, a modified kesa-gatame worked sometimes, if he had his collar on but I don't know if this would apply to an angry animal intent on biting you.

Also an observation on biting. The dog(my dog, anyway) didn't just bite, he'd chomp on hard and work the bite in by shaking his head and body convulsively, occasionally lunging in for another target. I imagine an attack like that would break your balance quite badly and you shouldn't depend on whacking the dog with the free arm while it's preoccupied with taking the other one off.

soon neo

gmanry
13th May 2006, 03:50
Oh, it wouldn't be a walk in the park. Small compact dogs are harder to hold, I would estimate, than larger lankier dogs.

Your best bet is to be armed with a knife. Pit bulls have been known to shrug off baseball bats, bullets, and other blunt attacks, but nobody can shrug off no blood left in their body. You will get messed up, but you may survive.

A single dog is probably survivable, but a pack...forget it, you are toast. I have read of many people surviving a single dog mauling, but I can't recall any survivals when it was multiple dogs.

Again, these are not guarantees, just higher probability maneuvers to consider.

If you did have a pistol, you would be wise to wait for the dog to close and just fire when it latched on to you, you could then put the bore right on the dog. You will get bit though, that is just a fact.

gmanry
13th May 2006, 03:54
Prince,

Well, I think the conclusion here is that karate specifically is not going to do a whole lot in response to a dog. However, your overall toughness from good training will probably play a factor.

The truth is you better be armed with a pistol or a knife if you want to survive a dog attack. If not, RNC is a possibility.

I will say that in messing around with various dogs if you push into their mouths it is harder for them to close down, not impossible, but harder. Of course, this would go against every single instinct you have when being bitten by a dog. :) I remember reading somewhere that you can try to reach down their throats and grab the base of their tongues, same instinct problem with that too.

I have no idea about chimpanzees. I would opt for the pistol or knife again.

Prince Loeffler
13th May 2006, 04:40
Prince,

Well, I think the conclusion here is that karate specifically is not going to do a whole lot in response to a dog. However, your overall toughness from good training will probably play a factor.

The truth is you better be armed with a pistol or a knife if you want to survive a dog attack. If not, RNC is a possibility.

I will say that in messing around with various dogs if you push into their mouths it is harder for them to close down, not impossible, but harder. Of course, this would go against every single instinct you have when being bitten by a dog. :) I remember reading somewhere that you can try to reach down their throats and grab the base of their tongues, same instinct problem with that too.

I have no idea about chimpanzees. I would opt for the pistol or knife again.


Thanks Glen, The video makes a great study for scenarios. More likely the only way to survive perhaps is by evasive means as opposed to tackling, punching, kicking or striking.

Now let me go and so that I can entice my Mom's annoying chichuahua to attack me. :)

Mark Murray
13th May 2006, 14:30
I've been told about two ... options, I guess you'd call them. I have never had to try them out, so take them as just theories.

1. When a dog goes to bite, shove your fist as far down their throat as possible.

2. If the dog latches onto your forearm, then close quickly, place your other forearm behind their neck and roll both arms to snap the dog's neck.

I've never heard of anyone using these examples either.

I did have two medium sized dogs come at me once. One was a shephard, or shephard mix and the other was a mutt. They got to about twenty yards away and I growled at them. Yeah, you can laugh now. :) But, it wasn't just a growl. It was gutteral. They stopped immediately and stood there for a few seconds before turning around and leaving. No, not running away leaving, just sort of meandering back the way they came with an occasional glance back at me. Don't know what they thought, but at least I didn't have to deal with an attack.

Mark

gmanry
13th May 2006, 23:50
I have used a growl on a dog before too, and it did cause it to stop. I even bared my teeth. Of course, it was probably thinking WTF?!! rather than "looke at that scary human." However, it stopped barking and advancing.

Animal psychology is useful.

Prince, evasion is always the best option. I just always assume that the most obvious things have failed.

Moenstah
25th May 2006, 10:28
It might have been imagination, but the chimps in the movie seemed to hesitate when their victims were standing (or getting) back on their feet. Apparently, the size of standing humans is an intimidating factor. They should never have lowered themselves to the size of chimps by sitting amongst them.

Some basic knowledge of animal psychology is indeed useful. Assuming a threatening posture in a situation where the animal can't escape or back off wouldn't be the best idea :rolleyes:

Prince Loeffler
26th May 2006, 06:49
It might have been imagination, but the chimps in the movie seemed to hesitate when their victims were standing (or getting) back on their feet. Apparently, the size of standing humans is an intimidating factor. They should never have lowered themselves to the size of chimps by sitting amongst them.

Some basic knowledge of animal psychology is indeed useful. Assuming a threatening posture in a situation where the animal can't escape or back off wouldn't be the best idea :rolleyes:


How would you defend yourself ? Surely, you're not gonna ask the gorilla to lay down on the couch and talk about his childhood and his relationship to his mother.. :)

Moenstah
26th May 2006, 16:32
I will pay homage to the maxim 'make love, not war', and immediately start sexually abusing the monkey in every way imaginable. Including those deemed impossible.

To be honest: I don't know for sure. If I would be carrying a knife and I would manage to get to it, I'd use it. Otherwise: I'd make as much use of my knees, elbows and/or try getting my hands to its larynx, ears and eyes. Either way: I'd most probably would go berserk (knowing myself).

Jay Vail
9th June 2006, 00:56
Dogs being on their back will not stop them from fighting, but you being belly to back with them and their legs up really does confuse them and make them very hesitant/docile.

I have tried this with 3 or four dogs of different breeds. Can't say what a wolf would do, but Rotweilers, labradors, and a big lab mutt all reacted the same.

I would like to also point out that a choke works better on long necked dogs, rotzies may not be as susceptible nor pitbulls. German shephards and all the hunting dogs and houds would be easier to apply an RNC to.

Also, I remember somebody telling me that a good grip on the larynx can allow you to choke them out, but that puts me too close to the business end of the dog for comfort.

Lastly, this is not a guarantee, and if the dog is angry, you will probably get bit. Think of it as you would a knife encounter. You will get hurt.

If you've been around dogs, you've probably had one hump your leg at one time or other. We think of this as doggie sex, but it's not. It's dominance behavior. The humper is showing the humpee that he is literally the top dog. When you straddle the dog like you have described, he probably interprets it as this dominance behavior and he's just submitting like a good doggie.

Prince Loeffler
10th June 2006, 17:40
If you've been around dogs, you've probably had one hump your leg at one time or other. We think of this as doggie sex, but it's not. It's dominance behavior. The humper is showing the humpee that he is literally the top dog. When you straddle the dog like you have described, he probably interprets it as this dominance behavior and he's just submitting like a good doggie.

Jay,

This is interesting ! Next time my Mom's Chihuahua who I suspect was way too amorous tries this on me again. I am gonna fight back :) I wonder what type of choke I should apply here.. :p

Katsu!
20th June 2006, 07:12
Hi All,

I friend of the family was a border guard as a soldier and handled these dogs well. One night he was attacked by a pack of wild dogs and when the first jumped him and attached itself to his forearm. Instead of pulling away he pushed his forearm into the mouth and with his left arm snapped the dogs neck by pulling in from behind. The other dogs just ran away.

True story.


Marko Miletic

Prince Loeffler
28th June 2006, 19:15
Here's another video of Beast vs Beast. One can see that Kicks, Punches, Chokes will not have any effects on these two at all.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=N7vvkloC-Ac