View Full Version : Dangerous Techniques

9th December 2000, 19:13
What is OK? Is trying to prevent injury more or less important than the art that is being practiced? Should the line be drawn at the intentional injury of someone? If not, then where?

Two of my teachers had knees go out on poorly thrown tai-otoshis. Should we stop throwing it, or recognize that it is dangerous when done incorrectly and move on?

Doctors tell us that it is dangerous to choke someone out.

E. Karl Koiwai, M.D. tells us in Anatomy of a Choke, "Investigations have shown that no deaths had occurred by these techniques since the sport of judo was founded by Professor Jigoro Kano in 1882 in Tokyo, Japan. A survey made by this author in 1979, based on a questionnaire to all International Judo Federation (IJF) country members, revealed that although there were 19 judo fatalities, none was due to shime-waza. "

That's 119 years of "dangerous" chokes- no deaths.

Should we not use chokes, or accept the fact that they can be dangerous (when done improperly) and move on?

:D Loose the dogs!!:D

Duke Lewis

10th December 2000, 11:03
Hi, Duke,
Well, it may pay off to check for serious accidents resulting in morbidity, as well as death. I know there were incidents recently of broken necks, the result of "banned" nage waza.

I'm betting on, either finding serious injury or that using chokes in settings which would have a record (shiai, randori, and/or parking lots :) ).

Perhaps it is because the outcome is known and people really do take "mutual welfare" seriously?

Who knows? Anyone know of such cases? I've known of Karl Koiwai forever, and his descrption (category?) for judo is "combative sport."

What do y'all think?


BTW: Anyone out there know of a hip throw which may have been classified as "air/wind" throw? Personally, I think most people think of all judo throws as hip throws, but I'm old, cynical, and stubborn.:D

10th December 2000, 15:11
When you say--

BTW: Anyone out there know of a hip throw which may have been classified as "air/wind" throw? Personally, I think most people think of all judo throws as hip throws, but I'm old, cynical, and stubborn.

are you refering to that old movie of Mifune? I don't think the narrator can be completely trusted as being accurate.

Sumi otoshi (corner dropping) and Kukinage (air throwing) are the same throw (see Canon of Judo pp.107). Mifune invented the throw so he should know the name.

I theorize that in the OLD days the names of techniques were not proper names but brief descriptions of what is going on. Different people tell you different things and no one agrees completely.

For instance-- the official video from the Kodokan (supposed to be the definitive chronicle of throws) puts Uki otoshi (floating drop) as thrown to the front corner while standing, while Mifune's book lists Sumi otoshi as being thrown to the rear corner AND front corner.

If anyone should know, both of these sources should. Since they differ, I don't think the name is as important as the principle behind it. You can call it Bugga-Bugga as long as the sucker hits the floor:D

:D If I had to give a proper name to a throw I think I can do better than "body drop". It would be something NOBODY would forget like :idea: "The Whirlwind Creeping Doom Throw":laugh: or "The Nuclear Death Smash" :laugh: :D

Duke Lewis

11th December 2000, 11:28
If I had to give a proper name to a throw I think I can do better than "body drop".

Hi, Duke,
Isn't the meaning of "body drop" actually a description of the direction of tori and not that of uke? At least, that was always my conclusion. It seems to be this way, until you look at the old (Mifune's) tai otoshi. This changes, at least for that throw, my meaning. However, when doing tai otoshi today, tori definitely drops (lowers) his body, bringing uke with him, and then over, a la seoiotoshi.

Sumiotoshi, you break uke to the right rear, while stepping in with your left, and throwing in a circle (bad description). You also drop your body when stepping in to break kuzushi.

With ukiotoshi, you break to the right front, and the basic "throwing in a circle" is about the same. Here again, tori drops his body while breaking kusushi, especialy as seen today, going to one knee while backing and dropping.

But what I am trying to find out, is (I agree, btw, that names aren't what they are, but brief descriptions) whether there is a koshiwaza which specifically done by Mifune which is called "air throw" or a kukiunage (sukuinage comes to mind, but I'm not sure whether the meaning here is anything close it air throw, or is it kukiunage?).

An early aikido student in Hawaii, of Tohei sensei, describes in an article to be published, seeing a throw by Mifune, and called it, either an air throw, or wind throw, saying, to paraphrase slightly, "It was like a judo hip throw, but there was almost no contact with the bodies." And "You have to read the opponent's mind." So I was asked if I knew a term in Japanese for this, or if I knew what he was referring to. With Mifune, it is not completely out of the question that he did read minds, or looked as if he could do it.

Another poster said it was sumiotoshi, but this is no hip throw. Just today, I read of sukuinage, and thought, while this is a tewaza, the scooping action, and momentary touching of tori to uke's hips, might be what it is.

Mifune does have a couple of throws referred to as air throws, and sumiotoshi and uki-otoshi, fit the bill, sort of.

Take a look at Mifune's seoinage. He does this, on his toes, or ball of the foot, as might a ballet dancer, raising his right knee up to his chest before setting it on the floor. This one is truly incredible. He was of a different mind than most judoka.



BTW: I should go to the source, and ask those students in Aikido who know Tohei, or at least his senpai.