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raparigapessego
16th July 2006, 00:53
I would to know wicth are the japanese traditional principles to stablish a new Ryu, besides a diferent "way" from the initial one. Thanks!

Prince Loeffler
16th July 2006, 01:40
I would to know wicth are the japanese traditional principles to stablish a new Ryu, besides a diferent "way" from the initial one. Thanks!


I would like to see you post your full name as per E-Budo rules. :) Thanks !

DDATFUS
16th July 2006, 02:14
You might be able to find the answers (or at least start your search) in the articles on this website:
http://koryu.com/library/titles.html

This article, "What is a Ryu?" by Wayne Muromoto (http://koryu.com/library/wmuromoto3.html), will probably be especially helpful to you.

raparigapessego
17th July 2006, 21:06
Dear Friends,
Thanks so much for your great help, the article that you suggested me explained many details that I was willing to know. However it didn`t explained to me about what I was really hopping to know. There is a bushido manual by Nitobe also Hakagure, but as you probably know many rules concernning samurai code rules were unwritten. The samurai were the only ones who could start a new "ryu", "or a new way of doing things". The informations I was looking for was more like: A Soke has a minimun age? There has to be an official ceremony? There are rules for certicate emission? He needs approvall from the his ancestors or testimonies from his students? Iīm talking about a tradicional japanese art.
Thanks to the ones who help me here.
Carla Valverde, Portugal

DDATFUS
17th July 2006, 21:39
Well, I think that the basic thing is that there were no rules. There might be some customs, but generally founders rose and fell based on ability.

The original bushi trained in the martial arts for one reason: so that they would survive the next war. If you wanted to teach your own style of fighting, you were unlikely to get students unless you could offer evidence that it was effective. For instance, a famous warrior would have a line of young bushi wanted to study under him. So if you wanted to start your own school, you would first have to build up your reputation. Having a teaching liscence from another school would help. For instance, if you had a liscence in Katori Shinto Ryu, a famous school, it would be like having a degree from a really good university. People would want to hire you based on that school's reputation. If you had an impressive military record, then it would be like having a degree from a good university as well as a good resume.

Anyway, after you set yourself up as a teacher, you would have to worry about challenges. Anyone who wanted to make a name for himself could challenge you to a duel, a duel which might end in your death. As far as I can tell, people generally figured if you could survive as an instructor you had earned the right to have your own school. If you got killed after teaching for a few years, well, small loss.

Now, most people who started their own school did so because they believed that they had found a fundamentally unique approach to martial arts. For instance, Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami Nobutsuna was a student of Kage Ryu. He travelled Japan and participated in several battles and personal duels. He also studied other styles of swordsmanship. Eventually, he started to teach. But even though he thought of himself as a Kage Ryu practitioner originally, he realized that somewhere along the way his studies and experiences had altered his martial art. What he was doing was no longer Kage Ryu, it was something new, something unique. He decided that he had changed enough that he would have to give his art a new name. He called it "Shinkage Ryu" to show that, while it had its roots in Kage Ryu, this art was something new (shin). Many founders also claimed that their new approach to the martial arts was the result of a divine vision. I believe Kamiizumi described a vision in which a shinto deity, in the form of a monkey, taught him secret techniques.

So, no, there wasn't a minimum age or anything like that. But to start your own style, you first had to create your own style. Next, you had to be able to back it up and survive whatever challenges came your way. Finally, you had to attract and train a group of students who could survive fights and carry on your tradition, or your style would die with its founder.

Anyway, that's how I understand it. I'm by no means an expert, though, so if someone else wants to correct me, go ahead.

ScottUK
17th July 2006, 21:54
Hi Carla,

What Ryu are you intending to create?

raparigapessego
18th July 2006, 03:32
Scoot, your post made me laugh! Hey, guys, Iím just wondering, because it happens that an instructor separated himself from his originary group and started a new ryu, in fact his father was already a premonition that this could happen, but he never did it, two years ago he died and his son separated definitely. I can not say names, if you know, you know, if you donít know, you just donít, sorry! But that`s it. His father claimed that he was the most direct student from the founder of the art, nobody believed till someone found proves, I mean photos and everything. Do you know what Iím talking about? Anyway, that instructor, who happens to have an excellent technical level, he is just alone now. But the thing I was wondering about is that he can call his ryu "traditional"? He supports woman a lot on practice, so as his father, as you probably know, japanese society is based on danson johi, men over women society, thatís one of the things I most like about his style, and also he has a lot of foreign students, japanese donít allow many westerns in traditional arts, and, now he does not get along with the others japanese that practice the same art. So I was triying to justify things because everybody here is saying "He just started now, he is not "traditional"...!" People say that he lot his reason when he separed himself from main organization, because now he can not give certificates according to them just as everybody does. So thatís way... Do you get my point? For me... I just donít care, he inspires me, thatís enough. Not only that, his father and him made me believe, that we CAN. For burocratic reasons I can not follow him, but I make a point to go his seminars and learn a lot from his spirit.

raparigapessego
19th July 2006, 04:18
I guess this was too much gossip around for E-Budo, anyway, I would like to ask to who may concern about my questions, what makes you call a "traditional martial art". In many arts there are "gendai ryus" and "traditional ryus", but they started from the same master...what makes the difference? this aspects that I`ve refered still important today?

Carla Valverde, Portugal

Mark Murray
19th July 2006, 10:15
Hello Carla,
Welcome to E-Budo. I see that you are trying to sign your name, but the rules require that you sign your name on every post. If you go to the "User CP" area, you can click on Edit Signature and put in your very own signature that will automatically get added to every post. This way you won't have to remember.

Also, we try to support our statements with fact. So, in the case of your statement, "I can not say names, if you know, you know, if you donít know, you just donít, sorry! But that`s it" -- that won't go very far here on E-Budo. Don't be surprised if someone calls you on naming those names.

Thanks,
Mark

kabutoki
20th July 2006, 21:46
Hi Carla,
first thing you need to do, apart from stopping all the secrecy (you should have just lied and should have said that you were just curious!), is to put Nitobeīs and Yamamotoīs books in a small box and hide this box under your bed for the next few... well however long it takes. Those books and even more their "interpretations" by various authors have added a great deal of the misunderstandings concerning the life in old Japan. Articles like the one suggested (and most others at koryu.com) and books like Karl F. Fridays "Legacies of the sword", to name just one, will help you a lot more than "Bushido" and "Hagakure".
I am not saying I know all about those two books but Iīd bet quite a lot of somebodies money that a lot of people misjudge those books and make false assumptions deriving from them.

Karsten