Koryu in Japan?

[Eric Ling]

Greetings all

I am planning to live and work in Japan for a couple of years and would be grateful for any info regarding koryu in Kyoto and Nara - which ryuha are based/taught in or near those cities and anyone's experience of training there would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Eric

[CKohalyk]

Eric,

There is Hozoin-ryu in Nara. I met the headmaster and some of the menkai from there, and there all nice guys. They practice on Saturdays at 10 in the morning. That's all I know.

In Shiga somewhere is Jikishinkage-ryu, but I don't remember where. If you go to Hozoin-ryu, there is a really small old guy whose name I can't remember. He is not only a menkai in Hozoin-ryu, but also in Jikishinkage-ryu. He used to train somewhere in Shiga I think, ask him.

But in Kyoto there are all kinds of things. Takenouchi-ryu
(Chofukan) is in Kitayama. They practice 3 times a week, but you can go up to the dojo anytime to work out. There are also a few gaijin there if your Japanese is not up to par. These guys are nice.

If you are looking for something a bit more modern, there is Daito-ryu at the Asahi Culture Centre on Kawaramachi every Saturday morning. The teacher there is great. There used to be a gaijin there, but I think he went back home.

I think there is some Shibukawa-ryu around, but I can't remember.

Muso Shinto-ryu is at the Budo Center on Marutamchi by Heian Jingu. Maybe go there to investigate.

That's all off the top o' me noggin'. I'll get back if I recall something else.


CK

[CKohalyk]

Whoooooooooooooooops!!!

I was walking down the street, and it hit me. NOT Jikishinkage-ryu...... JIGEN-RYU!!!

Sorry.

CK

[Eric Ling]

Thanks for your help CK. Do you live in Kyoto or Nara, or do you know them well? I'm hoping to get on the JET program next year, and am deciding where to apply for. What are your views on these cities, not just for training, but as places to live as well? What do you study?

Once again, thanks for replying.

Eric

[CKohalyk]

Eric,

Kyoto is great. It's my home away from home. I come from a small town in Canada so places like Tokyo and Osaka don't agree with me. Kyoto is 40 mins from Osaka on the Hankyu (the cheap one) so you can be in the middle of a huge city in no time. Kyoto is filled with temples, which seems more Japan-y than a lot of the other cities I've been to or lived in. Though some people get sick of a temple on EVERY street corner.

If you like the outdoors you can go to Takao, climb Atago-san, Kiyotaki, Ashuu, swimming in the Hozu, or even whip over to Yagyu no Sato (which is cool!!).

Lot of interesting bars in Kiyamachi.

I don't know, I just like it a lot.

Nara... to tell you the truth I have NEVER been there!! But I hear it's just like Kyoto.

BTW, good luck on the JET. I hope you get close to your city of choice.

To answer your final question, I do many different things, but now my passion is Kiraku-ryu.

Thanks,

Chad

[allan]

Greetings all,

I am wondering about the presence of koryu arts in the Nagoya region,
particularly those close to the city itself.

After a search of Koryu.com it has been brought to my attention the presence of
Yagyu Seigo-ryu battojutsu, Uchida-ryu, Isshin-ryu, and Owari Kan ryu.

Does anyone have knowledge or experience of koryu in this area that they
would like to discuss?

(If you prefer to respond privately please do: allan1000@hotmail.com)

My thanks in advance,

Allan Heinemann

[Jay Bell]

Heya Allen,

I posted for you some months back about this..only one person answered and gave me his email address, but then I could never find you to hand it off. If you check the General Message board, I think the post is in there somewhere.

When do you leave?

Take care,

Jay

[PRehse]

I am going to Himeji City for the second interview for a job. To be honest I was not considering moving back to Japan but well - let's see.

For MA what does this city have to offer. Aikido in Japan is pretty well limited to what Shihan says but I was thinking Koryu. Does anyone have a clue?

If I take the position it would be for about 5 years - maybe more.

[PRehse]

I have been offered a seriously cool job near Himeji, Japan. I am looking for information concerning any Koryu in the area. I'll start my search once I arrive but would not mind a few suggestions as to what's available. This is not my first period in Japan.

So far all I have been able to find is a reference to Hontai Yoshin Ryu. Does anyone know anything about this.

[poryu]

Hi

The Hon Tai Yoshin Ryu is a form of jujutsu that has a history going back to the 1600's. It is also known by other names in different branches of the school. One being Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

One of the first heads of the school was a samurai in Himeji castle for a while. I have heard that his name is recorded in docuemtns there, as well as a wakizashi being kept there that once belonged to him. This I have not been able to verify.

You could check out the american web site http://www.hyrusa.com/

[Yuki]

Hey all,
Though only recently a member of E-Budo, I've been patrolling round its forums for quite a while now. Though until recently my physical situation (I live on a very remote ranch in Mexico, two hours on unpaved roads from *anywhere*) has prevented me from doing much actual budo training, I have taken a keen interest in martial art for quite a while, and I eagerly devour any information thereof (especially with regards to koryu).

However, much to my delight, I have managed to arrange a fairly long-term (one year plus) stay in Japan starting early 2005. While there, I wish to avail myself of the opportunity to train in the koryu.

The location I will probably be based at is in Sendai. Unfortunately, with the exception of Isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu (not a particular interest of mine), I have been unable to locate any mention of koryu dojo in that area. One source I have says there's a Yagyu Shingan-ryu dojo in Sendai, but I have as yet been unable to confirm this.

Do y'all know of any Sendai koryu dojo? Any input would be a blessing ^_^

[allan]

Mr. Valenzuela,

Please check your PMs.

Regards,

[BOB DAVIES]

Morning list-ka,

I am a new member of the list and look forward to interacting with you. My main training experiences include Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Arnis de Mano, Okinawan Goju Ryu, and Yang style (long form) T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

I will be visiting Shikoku towards the end of October to solo-walk the Shikoku henro trail plus 20 un-numbered temples and peaks of Tsurugi-san and Ishizuchi-san, starting and ending on Koya-san, Honshu, over a period of 64 days.

While travelling the route, the opportunity to visit any dojo (particularly any koryu schools) would be a decided bonus. This is out of general interest, not specifically for training purposes.

Is anyone able to provide me with the contact details, addresses, etc, of any such organisations?

[woodlandjustin]

I am living in Fujimino (Saitama-ken) which is on the Tobu Tojo line 30 minutes from Ikebukuro (Tokyo). Does anyone know how I can find anywhere to practice good martial arts around here? I would most like kenjutsu or also whatever art teaches fighting with a staff.
Thank you!
Justin

[Jason Chambers]

Full name in your signature please...

[woodlandjustin]

Why? Does the nature of my question really demand that my privacy MUST be denied in the world-wide public space on the internet? My wish for studying is genuine. But so too is my wish to avoid the public eye. Surely that is not unfair?
Please understand I mean no harm by this.
Justin

P.S. May I also add to my list aiki (aikido ot aiki jujutsu, is that what it is called?).

[niten ninja]

Actually having everyones name is suprisingly helpful.

[DDATFUS]

Does the nature of my question really demand that my privacy MUST be denied in the world-wide public space on the internet?

No, but the forum rules that you agreed to when you registered as a member do require that you sign each post with your real, full name. Just one of the rules that the guy who pays for the forum came up with and that everyone here follows (or gets banned). Also, there are a number of people here who are in Tokyo and practice martial arts, but some of them seem rather hesitant to give out their dojo's information to people if they don't even have their real name.

As long as you are here, though, you might try using the search function. Several good martial arts groups based in Tokyo have been mentioned before.

[Andrew S]

My Aikido Sensei is opening a new dojo in Fujimono next month. We also have a dojo in Kawagoe (a few stops up the Tojo line).
Does this help?

[Kusarigama]

Why? Does the nature of my question really demand that my privacy MUST be denied in the world-wide public space on the internet? My wish for studying is genuine. But so too is my wish to avoid the public eye. Surely that is not unfair?


Because it shows good manners.

Britt Nichols

[SLeclair]

Why? Does the nature of my question really demand that my privacy MUST be denied in the world-wide public space on the internet? My wish for studying is genuine. But so too is my wish to avoid the public eye. Surely that is not unfair?

Is your identity so important that you feel you can sign up to a message board and ignore the rules it asks you to agree to?

Full name is the rule here. You have agreed to those rules. If you feel so strongly about your privacy, then you have to accept the repercussions. This means that you don't sign up and post to boards where they require you to reveal your full name, even if you really want the information they could give you.

---
Sebastien L.

[fifthchamber]

More to the point, if you expect anyone to trust you enough to tell you about possible places to train you should show that you are trustworthy. Which means a few things, following the basic (and not demanding) rules here, being honest and open about who you are and what you intend while in Japan and being polite. You're in Japan, would you ever consider asking a question such as this of a Japanese that you did not introduce yourself too?Even if only in name?
If you ask for our help then respect the rules here. More than that, be polite.
Good luck in your search.
Regards.

[woodlandjustin]

More to the point, if you expect anyone to trust you enough to tell you about possible places to train you should show that you are trustworthy. [...]More than that, be polite.
Good luck in your search.

__________________
Ben Sharples.
Regards.

Hi Ben,
I don't really see how I could use the contact info for a dojo in some negative way. I mean, surely they would be in the phone directory (if only I could read Japanese!) I really don't see the big deal! But really, I do not consider myself untrustworthy but if you judge me so then I respect your right of judgement.
And if I have come across as being impolite, I am sorry. I do much prefer meeting individuals, and am neither accustomed nor particularly fond of the anonomousness of internet forums. My withholding my name comes rather from fear than any desire to upset any of you.



Is your identity so important that you feel you can sign up to a message board and ignore the rules it asks you to agree to?

Full name is the rule here.
[...]
---
Sebastien L.

Dear Sebastien
I notice that you yourself signed as Sebastien L. Perhaps I may follow your lead? That seems to be in line also with the rule:
"Note: Females do not feel comfortable in using their full names. E-Budo understands this so it has been deemed acceptable for first initial and surname to be used; i.e. Jane Smith = J. Smith."
As I have mistakenly given my forename I hope you will grant me using my surname as initial.


My Aikido Sensei is opening a new dojo in Fujimono next month. We also have a dojo in Kawagoe (a few stops up the Tojo line).
Does this help?

Hi Andrew
Thank you very much. That sounds very interesting. Kawagoe is a lovely place.

Best wishes to all of you
Justin W.

[fifthchamber]

Hi Justin,
that wasn't exactly what I meant..If you are seeking a Kendojo or Judojo then yes, they are in the phone book and you most certainly could find them there. But you posted your thread in the Koryu section which would imply that you are looking for something rather more traditional. If so then things like that do require more patience, and trust of you than most other things. Hence my comment.
As for Sebastian, as I am sure you can see, his full name is included in his name and user name and so he shortens it to Sebastian L. in his sig. line.
I certainly don't judge you as untrustworthy. I simply don't know you, but it is in the rules of this site to use your full name. That's all.
Impoliteness is a changeable thing and what may be fine for one man can differ hugely for the next, however I have found that a base line for that is knowing with whom I am speaking.
Regards.

[woodlandjustin]

Hi Ben
Yes you're right, I am looking for the more traditional. Actually I did attend a kyudo place just half an hour's bike ride away from my home for a few weeks. They were very very nice there. However nearly all if not all of them seemed to far far prefer to hit the target, and showed much emotional difference in a good and bad aim. That put me off quite a bit. Also the guy teaching me was extrememly nice and extremely kind. But, I could never shoot an arrow without him saying sooo many things each time and moving me about all over the place! He was always twist me so that I was aiming about 4 metres to the side of my target (I'm sure that was not his intention)!! I just had to patiently wait until he let go of me, then I could return to actually face my target!! Anyway I could only take it for so long, plus I became very busy. I remain grateful to them all of course.

So do you think kyujutsu is much different from kyudo? I have never seen it. And if anyone knows anywhere good for that, like near Fujimino (up or down the Tobu Tojo line would be nice.)?

As for the name thing, I find it quite intriguing that to know my surname will make you feel you know who I am. I myself do not feel that I am my name. I could very easily have taken the option of signing with a false name. That would have been very simple, and surely no-one would have known. It was actually my commitment to honesty which prevented me from doing that. I see no reason to lie, even though it would have been "easier".
If you feel my written words are not enough to know me by, you are most welcome to come to Fujimino. Or to meet for a drink in Asaka-dai even. That could be nice.
Best wishes
Justin W.

[fifthchamber]

Hello Justin,
I'm glad that you enjoyed Kyudo. I would say that perhaps you should let the sensei move you where he thinks would be best for you. He knows what he is doing and whatever you do that he corrects I would guess has a reason behind it. Let him teach you.
As for names, it is less a question of knowing you intimately and more one of knowing what your intentions are, but nonetheless, it remains a rule here.
As for your offer, I don't think Fujimino is anywhere I would choose to visit...But I am often in Shinjuku...I don't choose to drink in Tokyo too late as the trains are a nuisance, so you will forgive me if I refuse your offer of a meeting.
Regards.

[Finny]

As for the name thing, I find it quite intriguing that to know my surname will make you feel you know who I am. I myself do not feel that I am my name. I could very easily have taken the option of signing with a false name. That would have been very simple, and surely no-one would have known. It was actually my commitment to honesty which prevented me from doing that. I see no reason to lie, even though it would have been "easier".

Justin,

I think you're misunderstanding the point of the name.

The thing is - it's the first rule here at E-Budo. When you became a member here you agreed to sign each of your posts with your full name.

That's the point - you agreed to these rules when you came here. If you now don't agree with them, that's fine, but I'm sure you'll have your account deleted in short order.

Where the issue of politeness comes into it, is when you agree to these rules, then fail to abide by them and, when they are pointed out - argue the point. That is impolite.

It's not a matter of trying to intrude on your privacy or anything like that - but that's the rule - sign your posts with your full name, or don't post.

[woodlandjustin]

Hello Justin,
I'm glad that you enjoyed Kyudo. I would say that perhaps you should let the sensei move you where he thinks would be best for you. He knows what he is doing and whatever you do that he corrects I would guess has a reason behind it. Let him teach you..

Hi again
Well, I DID let him move me where he wanted, sure. Out of politeness. But still, I would say actually he doesn't really know so well what he was doing. Had I just followed his correction, rather than hitting target number 5 I would have gone somewhere closer to target number 1!! I'm not kidding! He certainly has good intentions, and I respect him for that. But still, I think I had better aim at my own target. It would even make him look pretty dumb too if he made me shoot so terribly with his corrections. He'd loose face a bit there I would think.
Also I like the idea of kyudo being relaxing. You know, the whole mind aspect of the practice. So I think it is good to have a teacher who has a calm mind, and also even perhaps aims to cultivate that. So if anyone knows of any places I can practice any kind of Japanese archery like that, somewhere near me, I would be grateful to hear about it. Or lacking that, any art with those qualities.
Thank you
Justin W.

[SLeclair]

Dear Sebastien
I notice that you yourself signed as Sebastien L. Perhaps I may follow your lead? That seems to be in line also with the rule:
"Note: Females do not feel comfortable in using their full names. E-Budo understands this so it has been deemed acceptable for first initial and surname to be used; i.e. Jane Smith = J. Smith."
As I have mistakenly given my forename I hope you will grant me using my surname as initial.


I grant you nothing, and I follow the rules to the letter. Notice my username is SLeclair. Notice my signing Sebastien L. It should be easy for anyone to figure out the rest.

Read the rules you agreed to:



1. Please sign your posts with your full real name. First names are not enough, but you may abbreviate your first name. Thus, the following are allowable: John Doe, J Doe. If you look under your control panel options (user cp button) you will find the option to set your signature. You must set up your signature data field with your full real name. Failure to do so will result in your account being rejected.

Since you seem dedicated to avoiding this issue, I won't say a word further and simply report you to the moderators. Have a good day.

Sebastien L.

[Andrew S]

Justin,
Some things you'll find out.
1) Western Saitama doesn't have a huge budo offering. I know there is a good Shito Ryu Karate dojo in Asaka, a Motobu Ryu karate dojo in Asaka, a Yagyu Shinkage Ryu group in Kawagoe, a Koryu Jujutsu/Kukishin Ryu group in Kawagoe, JKA in Kawagoe, a Hozoin Sojutsu study group in Sayama, and that's about all I can think of at the moment.
2) The name rule is adhered to strictly on this forum, and I have seen several people banned for not following it. Do yourself a favour and put your full name on your signature, and you'll enjoy your time here. Consider this a piece of friendly, non-threatening advice.

Yours,
Andrew (note my full name in my signature)

[woodlandjustin]

Hi Andrew
Thank you very much for the information. I do not know about those arts you mentioned. I have some background in Tai Chi Chuan and so very much favour emphasis on softness - hardness too but in it's place. I have some bias against karate as I always hear that karate practitioners are so focused on hardness that they seem stiff. From the Tai Chi perspective that is. For example the always seem to loose at pushing hands (free style fixed step is the most usual form, in this context and is the one to which I refer.) However the short video clips I saw on the net of aiki looked very good. There seemed to be a great softness, very similar to Tai Chi Chuan (although we don't concentrate on joint manipulation, which it looked like aiki was doing).
Baring in mind this bias of mine, would you be able to elaborate further about those arts in my area you mentioned? Also if you have any particular recomendation of a certain club/sensei, as a good art is not really well embodied in a not-so-good teacher.
Thank you kindly
Justin

P.S. I also liked that it sounded as if aiki was simply about neutralising the situation. I actually don't like violence or fighting!

[DDATFUS]

Also the guy teaching me was extrememly nice and extremely kind. But, I could never shoot an arrow without him saying sooo many things each time and moving me about all over the place! He was always twist me so that I was aiming about 4 metres to the side of my target (I'm sure that was not his intention)!! I just had to patiently wait until he let go of me, then I could return to actually face my target!! Anyway I could only take it for so long, plus I became very busy.



Well, I DID let him move me where he wanted, sure. Out of politeness. But still, I would say actually he doesn't really know so well what he was doing. Had I just followed his correction, rather than hitting target number 5 I would have gone somewhere closer to target number 1!! I'm not kidding! He certainly has good intentions, and I respect him for that. But still, I think I had better aim at my own target.

I'm no expert... but I suspect that if this is how you feel, you won't be happy at a lot of traditional dojo that you visit.


Also, from the E-budo Rules forum:

1. You will need to sign your REAL FULL name on every post. You will only get three warnings from any E-Budo member. If you do not comply you will be placed in E-Budo Hell.

You're past the point of three warnings, so if you want to stick around you'd probably better start adding your name.

[Mekugi]

I am living in Fujimino (Saitama-ken) which is on the Tobu Tojo line 30 minutes from Ikebukuro (Tokyo). Does anyone know how I can find anywhere to practice good martial arts around here? I would most like kenjutsu or also whatever art teaches fighting with a staff.
Thank you!
Justin

Go to a the the Saitama Prefectural Budokan. They offer Judo and Kendo, and may have other things.

http://www.pref.saitama.lg.jp/A20/BA43/budokan/18-budou-kyousitsu.html#keiko-annai
Telephone number : 048-777-2400

10-minute walk from the west exit of Urawa Sta., Keihin-Tohoku Line.
Use Jorudan to plan a trip:
http://www.jorudan.co.jp/english/norikae/e-norikeyin.html

[Mekugi]

DARNIT...accident.

[renfield_kuroda]

Well, I DID let him move me where he wanted, sure. Out of politeness. But still, I would say actually he doesn't really know so well what he was doing. Had I just followed his correction, rather than hitting target number 5 I would have gone somewhere closer to target number 1!! I'm not kidding! He certainly has good intentions, and I respect him for that. But still, I think I had better aim at my own target. It would even make him look pretty dumb too if he made me shoot so terribly with his corrections. He'd loose face a bit there I would think.

Methinks your cup runneth over.

Regards,

r e n

[woodlandjustin]

Methinks your cup runneth over.

Regards,

r e n

Hello Ren
It does seem from your comment and one other that some people seem to think perhaps that if someone is teaching another a martial art that that person must therefore be a great master. That is the impression I am getting. If someone were teaching me golf, for example - let's say someold man I happened to meet on the golf course, and let's say I was about to take a swing and he very kindly came over to assist me, and made some correctinos to my posture. Let's say that some of his corrections were indeed bettering my posture, as indeed he had more experience than myself. But, once he was finished moving me about, I could decipher that I was now aiming for a house past the rough, rather than for the green. I would know for sure that if my aim was good, I would hit the house, but if it were bad, I would either go in the garden, or fall short of that, into the rough. What should I do? Should I go ahead? Would you go ahead? Or, would you patiently wait, and then as politely as possible turn again to face the green. I would do the latter.
Not all good intentioned people in dojos who busy themselves advising others, are perfect, surely. Perhaps some of them are not even good.
What would be nice for me would be if there happens to be a good, well charactered, "soft", teacher in my area, of any good art.
And if anyone knows anything of kyujutsu in Saitama or Tokyo, or even any comments on the art, I would be very glad to hear it as I have only seen kyudo.
Best wishes
Justin

[fifthchamber]

Once again Justin, you kinda miss the point.
He's a sensei. He's taught people before you for a lot longer than you have probably been here..He knows more about how to do it than you do. He knows how to teach it better than you. He knows what you are doing right, and what you are doing wrong. You don't. Why don't you let him try and teach you..First lesson? Good impression..I'm sure he was impressed to see that you saw through his attempt to make you hit his worst student.
On that line, I was thinking that I did know one person who could probably have helped you find a great kyujutsu Sensei in your area..But then his words are apparently not worth following..And he doesn't play Golf..
I'd try the links recommended already. You've had more than enough room to find something already..
Once again, good luck.
I won't comment further.

[woodlandjustin]

Once again Justin, you kinda miss the point.
He's a sensei. .

Well actually I'm not sure if he is exactly a sensei. He is certainly not the head of the dojo.


He's taught people before you for a lot longer than you have probably been here..He knows more about how to do it than you do. He knows how to teach it better than you.

Of course ! I am not denying that at all!


He knows what you are doing right, and what you are doing wrong. You don't.

You give me no credit at all do you. Are you sure it's right that I should be aiming at target number one when I am in lane number 5, and someone else is shooting at target number 1? Do you think it is more likely that he was unaware that I was actually now pointing in the wrong direction, or that he actually wanted me to be aiming at target number 1? Really I cannot understand why this is not understood as being as simple as it really is. It is surely due to my hopeless communication skills, for which I appoligise.


Why don't you let him try and teach you..First lesson? Good impression..I'm sure he was impressed to see that you saw through his attempt to make you hit his worst student.


I went for a few weeks. I enjoyed it. I remain grateful to everyone there. But it was very much not relaxing to be continually pulled around by that charming fellow. While I was resting I also saw that he busied himself correcting some other young students. The general result seemed to be that their shooting got far worse. By the way, he himself rarely hit the target.
It seems that the Japanese martial arts are somewhat related to Buddhism. As far as I understand it, in Buddhism simply believing the teacher just because he is the teacher, is to be avoided, that being "blind faith". One is, as I understand it, advised to use ones discernment in judging whether the teacher is correct or not. One is to take care in observing the teacher, to see whether they conform to the requirements of a teacher in that context. For example, following Nei Gung excercises of a bad teacher, a Tai Chi relative of mine did what is perhaps permanant injury to his knees. Another, from a different bad Tai Chi teacher ended up with blood coming from his anus. Perhaps in this forum one is expected to blindly follow all instructions of any sensei or anyone who merely takes it upon him or herself to instruct. I will myself not go along with that. The deeper into a relationship I go with a teacher, and the more profound my trust becomes, the more I will do without question, and the more I will presume the teacher to be correct even if it might go against some understanding I have. However I do not give such profound trust away without reason, and I believe that approach is in line with what the Buddha taught.
However, I strive to be polite and respectful especially to anyone who is teaching me. I never asked that man to stop moving me around, and I always yielded to his manipulations. I tried never to upset him, and tried never to be impatient. I strived to never be rude. That then is my ethic and I would somehow be surprised if it is displeasing to you.



On that line, I was thinking that I did know one person who could probably have helped you find a great kyujutsu Sensei in your area..But then his words are apparently not worth following..And he doesn't play Golf..


I am sure you have no reason to think I view his words as not worth following - have I ever suggested as much? I have never met the fellow! Perhaps it is the printed word which is distorting my communication, or simply my inability to use it well.
And I also do not play golf, so we already have something in common. But really, to be serious I was using the golf analogy as I thought it might help to clearly illustrate the point by guise of a different context. In the context of golf, perhaps you would not have been so quick to assume that somehow I was totally in the wrong for not hitting the ball at the house.

I am grateful for all of you and your continuing suggestions and support.
Best wishes
Justin.

[fifthchamber]

Yes. Perfectly clear now thanks. :rolleyes:

[renfield_kuroda]

If the guy teaching in the dojo was NOT a sensei, then he shouldn't be teaching and it's probably best that you left the dojo.
If the guy teaching WAS the sensei, then as his deshi you have one AND ONLY ONE proper response: do what he says.
By definition, you are not capable of understanding WHY he has you do things, you just do them.
Until you learn that, you will most certainly not be welcome in an koryu dojo.
Koryu is not golf. Sensei is not some old guy helping you with your swing.

Good luck finding a dojo. A proper dojo with a decent sensei and you may very well grow up considerably and learn much about a great many things.

Regards,

r e n

[Andrew S]

Justin,
Pleased that you've included your surname, so now you can be assured of staying here.
You'll probably find the attitude towards a sensei here somewhat different to what you would in the Chinese arts in your home country, and often what they are teaching is not evident at first glance. (e.g. hitting the target was possibly not what the gentleman correcting your form was thinking of.)
I've heard the Shito Ryu group I mentioned is very good. I used to train with a small Shotokan group (before I returned to the JKA) in Shiki which lost a few members to the Shito Ryu organisation, and all the ones I talked to spoke highly of it.
I have trained with the Kawagoe JKA people, and they are very earnest and spirited. (We sometimes have block training in with other JKA dojo in Saitama.)
As for my Aikido instructor... well, of course I have a bias. But he is a 7th dan, former uchideshi of Kobayashi Sensei and Asai Sensei, and listed by Hombu dojo as a major shihan in the Kanto area.
Of course, you need to find something that suits you. Beware that koryu can be closed door, or take a long time to accept newcomers.
Also, remember that language barriers can be real barriers to learning.
Hope this helps,
Andrew

[woodlandjustin]

You'll probably find the attitude towards a sensei here somewhat different to what you would in the Chinese arts in your home country, and often what they are teaching is not evident at first glance. (e.g. hitting the target was possibly not what the gentleman correcting your form was thinking of.)

Hi Andrew
Thank you very much for all the excellant and generous info. And thank you for your friendliness, which at times seems to be lacking on this forum!

As for the attitude towards a teacher, I find some of the expressed view rather over-romanticised. I cannot claim much experience, but have at least had some exposure studying under teachers for the last 10 years in India, Nepal, Tibet, China, Hong Kong, Thailand and Japan. I find there to be a commonality amongst attitudes towards teachers in all these countries. Yet nowhere have I found that the people native of whichever region will simply presume that a person is always right if they are called a "teacher". Sometimes I myself have had to do what a teacher says (I say "had" but I mean just in respect to my personal code of conduct) when the teacher has clearly been wrong. It is possible for a student to know that a teacher is wrong. However in such circumstances, where it may be more possible in the west to voice a "challenge", from being in the East t is more my habit now to just keep quiet, and either follow the mistake or go with what is correct, depending usually on which choice will cause less harm/offence/ridicule to the teacher.
But isn't this just common sense? It is not as if I am a stranger to doing what a teacher tells me. What is quite amazing is the faith that it seems several people in this forum have to a man whom they have never met, and all the information they have on him is that he usually misses the target, has great emotional difference when missing or hitting the target, "corrects" people making them worse, and points me 20 degrees of target! Give that information to a Japanese martial artist and ask him or her whether they too would have faith to follow every instruction of such a man. I doubt their view would be as romantic as some voiced here.

Having said all of that, may I ask you all for a request to your imaginations - please imagine the man I mention to be an abstract character. I never meant to write about these things, but to my utter surprise what to me was plain common sense has been challenged (again surely due to my terrible communication skills) and so I have written further in an attempt at clarification. However this man has only shown me kindness and so, even though he may not be the greatest archery teacher, as a man he only deserves respect. Therefore please remove the descriptions from any context, if you may imagine so.

Andrew, if your route takes you through Asaka Dai I am often there in the evenings. If you fancy going for a drink I'd be interested to hear about your experiences.
Best wishes
Justin

[woodlandjustin]

Koryu is not golf. Sensei is not some old guy helping you with your swing.
r e n

Though I cannot say I understand the full workings of that dojo, I might share with you that it appeared that some of the older members would point out bits and pieces to the beginners or young students. I did meet the main teacher of the dojo, and that was an entirely different man.
As this is becoming slightly exhausting perhaps I needn't go into further details about the situation. But it may be worth considering that there could be at least a possibility that I could perceive the situation (me actually being there) more clearly than you. I don't mean to be arrogant in such a claim. But I think there is a possibility.
Justin

[cxt]

I'm still trying to figure out why a dude that claims that he see's "the situation more clearly than you."
Needs to come here asking for help at all.

Clearly there are at least SOME things he does not "preceive" very well--such as places to train. ;)

Makes little sense to me--look at the context.

Dude thinks that people are being "overly romantic" then why bother to ask us at all???

Wants people to "give" HIM names when he does NOT feel that he should have present his own.
If he "really" felt that way--that it was "ok" to act like that--then why on earth would he think that anyone would give out names at all?

Clearly we have a bit of a discontect between how he feels HE should act and how he feels EVERYONE ELSE should act toward him. ;)

Only follows the rules he AGREED to when he signed up when forced to do so.

Then starts getting all "preachy" with the very folks he asked for help.

I wish the dude luck in his training---just hope he stays away from anyone I know.

[woodlandjustin]

I'm still trying to figure out why a dude that claims that he see's "the situation more clearly than you."
Needs to come here asking for help at all.


I quite simply assume that there is a possibility that I could perceive that particular situation more clearly because:
- I was there. I have far more information on the situation than any of you as I was present with all my senses and experienced the situation in its entirity over the several weeks of its duration, whereas;
- you were not there, and only have a few words on the subject, expressed by me. Not only that but they are only written words, and so you are unable to gain any further subtleties of expressioin I may be able to otherwise transmit in an oral explanation.

I was not asking for help in understanding that situation as I have no doubt about it. It is you who have taken it upon yourselves (some of you) to challenge this thing about which I have no doubt.
I was however asking you about something which I do not know, that being about other places to practice. My bringing up the subject which you have so questioned was merely a casual way of explaining my situation, and why I am looking further for another place. As this is a forum about Japanese martial arts I did presume that some people might have recommendations on where to train, and I am lucky and glad that some people have shared such information. On the other hand I am quite frankly surprised ay the level of aggresion in this forum, but then perhaps I should remember that this is not ikebana.



If he "really" felt that way--that it was "ok" to act like that--then why on earth would he think that anyone would give out names at all?


I understand that my withholding my name may have caused some discomfort to some of you, and for that I appologise. And, I was more asking for places to train. But may I make a suggestion? Rather than thinking "he won't give x so I won't either!", there may be another way of going about things. I am in no position to teach, but there is an attitude which may serve you better than that, and may even help your art, if you are involved with any. This alternative way is the way of non-harm, and of caring. It may sound "sissy" to you, but could actually make you feel better. When another person acts, you might contemplate what their possible reasons are. And you might think to yourself what is the best way to help that person, and not cause harm to him or her, nor anyone else. So, if he does not give x, you might think why? And if you consider giving x, you might consider if that would cause harm.
I did not give my name, out of fear. You may believe me or not. And if there are teachers who would fear their names being given, then please do not give them. However witholding teachers names out of a sense of revenge is a different matter.
I myself am no good example of this as by witholding my own name I evidently caused some of you to suffer. This is the fault of my ignorance. Then it must be the fault of this ignorance than I have received so much hostility and aggression from so many members here. Still, I cannot help be shocked.

I am very glad for all the information I have received, and I will think it all over and try to figure ot where I will go.
Thank you
Yours gratefully
Justin

[Andrew S]

Ok, Justin has appologised, can we leave it at that?

[cxt]

Justin

I have no beef with you---and I honestly wish you luck in your search.

Where you lose me--not that it matters--is how I read your stuff.

It comes arcoss to "me" as "preachy" and self important.

As an example your pretty quick to lecture folks you have never met about how THEY somehow fail to meet YOUR expectations of kindness and compassion.

You seem to feel that we are all in deep need of your direct guidence in how we think and feel and act.

Yet in all the preachy suggestions about how OTHERS could act.
You never ask YOURSELF the same questions.

Perhaps YOU "could have found an alternative."

'When another person acts" perhaps YOU "might contemplate what their possible reasons are."

I don't consider it "sissy" I just feel that people should practice what they preach.
And I don't see you following your own suggestions.

Don't want to turn this into some sort of e-fight so this is the last I'll say on the matter.

Seriously, good luck.

[renfield_kuroda]

Let me restate this as clearly as possible:
You are correct -- I know nothing about the dojo at which you had a scant few weeks of kyudo training. I don't know anything about the art, the sensei, etc.

What I do know is what it's like to train in a traditional koryu dojo in Japan. So take all my comments in that context.

If you have the attitude that you display in this thread, you will absolutely not survive in a koryu dojo in Japan.

Rule #1: You do not know anything. NOTHING.
You do as you are told. Period.
You don't ask questions. You obey, unflinchingly.
If sensei points you to shoot arrows across the dojo instead of at the target, you do so. If sensei smacks you repeatedly on the head with a bokken, you bow and thank him. If sensei has you stand in a deep stance with hot tea in cups balanced on your calves, you grit your teeth do your best.

Think really hard about what you want, and if you are still interested in studying koryu in Japan, do more homework, then think about it, then read some more, then think about it...then let me know.

Regards,

r e n

[roninseb]

,If sensei smacks you repeatedly on the head with a bokken, you bow and thank him.



Well if this is the case or if this is what Koryu is about well this would be what I call the wrong dojo or just a stupid teacher. Being a hard !!! does not only imply physical or verbal brutality. Real Koryu seishin shugyo is much more subtle than that.

I guess you are getting too emotional on this young lad here. Even if his attitude needs to be corrected in many points he will find it out on his own or just quit Koryu or martial-arts anyway. After suggesting how and what he should correct if he does not get the point or does not want to take it for what it is then it is useless to keep on typing about it.

[woodlandjustin]

Let me restate this as clearly as possible:
You are correct -- I know nothing about the dojo at which you had a scant few weeks of kyudo training. I don't know anything about the art, the sensei, etc.

What I do know is what it's like to train in a traditional koryu dojo in Japan. So take all my comments in that context.

Hi Ren
That makes sense then in why your comments seemed to me so out of place. Sounds like the context is entirely a different one. Where I went seems more like a sports club, with some people adding more of a ritualistic element to it, and some less. For example, the whole way of approaching the standing position, bowing etc, looking to the target, looking down, looking to the target again - rarely did people do all that. Some did more bits than others. Very informal (relatively that is). Lots of chit chat, and nice tea and cakes.





If you have the attitude that you display in this thread, you will absolutely not survive in a koryu dojo in Japan.

Rule #1: You do not know anything. NOTHING.
You do as you are told. Period.
You don't ask questions. You obey, unflinchingly.
If sensei points you to shoot arrows across the dojo instead of at the target, you do so. If sensei smacks you repeatedly on the head with a bokken, you bow and thank him. If sensei has you stand in a deep stance with hot tea in cups balanced on your calves, you grit your teeth do your best.

Think really hard about what you want, and if you are still interested in studying koryu in Japan, do more homework, then think about it, then read some more, then think about it...then let me know.

Regards,

r e n

That sounds nice. I can relate to that, and that is pretty much the way I prefer to train. Makes more sense to me, for the way I usually prefer (although I can fully understand that the people at the dojo I went to probably prefer their way of doing things, as they are either retired-looking or young, and basically wanting a relaxing social activity (especially the older ones), and it also gives the more serious ones just their own space to get in with their thing too. And the ones who want to busy themselves with handing out advise thei oportunity too!)
I would expect that in such a situation you describe, only (hopefully!) someone really knowing what they are doing, someone very competant, would take it upon themselves to give instructions in such a dojo. In that case it's fine. I'm sure that is a very fast way to learn. I find what you descibe absolutely acceptable, and furthermore, I feel that authentic lineage helps to protect such a situation, where someone becomes a teacher through recognition within the ryu, and if they go astray they are admonished or even kicked out. I think that brings much safety.
Good luck with your practice.
Best wishes
Justin

[woodlandjustin]

I still welcome any further input appreciatively. But as a token of my thanks for all the kind assistance and advice provided already, I thought I would share this with you. If you have not already seen some of these video clips, I recommend them. I enjoyed them very much!

http://www.tourettesguy.com/videos/

Best wishes
Justin

[renfield_kuroda]

Well if this is the case or if this is what Koryu is about well this would be what I call the wrong dojo or just a stupid teacher. Being a hard !!! does not only imply physical or verbal brutality. Real Koryu seishin shugyo is much more subtle than that.
I doubt getting hit in the head is what koryu is all about. But as part of a traditional training program that includes kumitachi, sometimes getting bonked on the noggin' is the best way to learn. I agree that any sensei that inflicts pain just for the fun of it is misguided, and I have serious issues with some of the misogi and other self-/other-punishing techniques I've seen in martial arts. But I've never seen such things in true koryu.
I have, however, seen and experienced a right good noggin' crack every now and then because sometimes, at a certain advanced level, there is a decided necessity to take the safety off a wee bit.



I guess you are getting too emotional on this young lad here. Even if his attitude needs to be corrected in many points he will find it out on his own or just quit Koryu or martial-arts anyway. After suggesting how and what he should correct if he does not get the point or does not want to take it for what it is then it is useless to keep on typing about it.
Just trying to give him a clue as to reality.
And from his follow-up post, it's clear that what he's looking for is NOT koryu, but a sports club or martial arts circle or cosplay group.
Better he hears it now on the internet from the safety and comfort of his own chair.

Regards,
r e n

[hyaku]

Well actually I'm not sure if he is exactly a sensei. He is certainly not the head of the dojo.

I went for a few weeks. I enjoyed it. I remain grateful to everyone there. But it was very much not relaxing to be continually pulled around by that charming fellow. While I was resting I also saw that he busied himself correcting some other young students. The general result seemed to be that their shooting got far worse. By the way, he himself rarely hit the target.
Justin.

Like most Budo the idea and concept of Kyudo is in perfection of spirit and movement. The object is not to actually "hit the target". It's my understanding from some of my students that do kyudo and sword arts that normally they wont let you near the range for a very long time. Practice is constricted to firing into a straw bale just feet away.

Yes they do drink tea and cakes. Maybe more so as a lot of ladies practice Kyudo. But we all do it now and then. It's the community spirit and japanese comradeship we seek.

One main thing we do is have to very willingly accept rules in Kobudo and not spend to much time questioning the whys and the wherefore's. I do know one particular Ryu that still has newcomers serving tea for a year. The very most you are expected to say is "Hai", bow and run and do what you were asked.

I may be wrong but reading your initial posts I have a feeling you might not find this acceptable. Budo "is" repetition. The old way was to just teach by example when you saw somebody do something that needed work on. Customary to leave a student practicing near the door on one technique for months. Quitely bow in, practice, bow out and leave.

One can tell some student to do something a thousand times and the penny does not drop. A lot do because they like it, not because they are good at it.
Japanese, Like the repetition. It's a lifetimes commitment and eventually they get good if they do it for long enough.

[woodlandjustin]

Like most Budo the idea and concept of Kyudo is in perfection of spirit and movement. The object is not to actually "hit the target". It's my understanding from some of my students that do kyudo and sword arts that normally they wont let you near the range for a very long time. Practice is constricted to firing into a straw bale just feet away.


Hi Colin
I think it helps then to be taught by someone who has perfection in spirit and movement. Or at least somewhere near. Then, I think it becomes an entirely different story.
And, I did start on the straw bale, and then either on my first or second day went on to the ordinary target. Most or every day I would spent at least a little time on the straw bale, especially if the targets were very busy. By the second day on the target I was hitting it more than he was.



Yes they do drink tea and cakes. Maybe more so as a lot of ladies practice Kyudo. But we all do it now and then. It's the community spirit and japanese comradeship we seek.

I actually very much enjoy that part. I look forward to it. I mentioned it to try to describe the general atmosphere of that dojo, in contrast to the above mentioned koryu dojo.



One main thing we do is have to very willingly accept rules in Kobudo and not spend to much time questioning the whys and the wherefore's. I do know one particular Ryu that still has newcomers serving tea for a year. The very most you are expected to say is "Hai", bow and run and do what you were asked.

I may be wrong but reading your initial posts I have a feeling you might not find this acceptable.

Actually that is pretty much what I did. Not the tea part. But, just saying "Hai" and doing everything I was told without question (except fpr aiming at the wrong target as I am sure he did not intend that!)



Budo "is" repetition. The old way was to just teach by example when you saw somebody do something that needed work on. Customary to leave a student practicing near the door on one technique for months. Quitely bow in, practice, bow out and leave.

That is what I prefer. Of course I do like some guidance, instruction and correction, for sure!! But then to be left alone to practice, again and again. That way I get to try to do what I have been taught. I get to try it. I get to try to do it right, see my mistakes, correct myself, get into it, get used to it. Relax, do the relax-mind-"do"-thing. All of that. But that is was I could not do, because like I said I could not shoot even one arrow without being constantly moved around, albeit with the best intentions. That's why I stopped going (though also I became very busy which was another reason. Also, I do not say that I will not go back there. They are very nice.)
Is the impression geting clearer? Anyway, actualy it is noot a big deal at all. And there are no worries about it.
Best wishes
Justin.

[woodlandjustin]

Like most Budo the idea and concept of Kyudo is in perfection of spirit and movement. The object is not to actually "hit the target".

Hi Colin
In the dojo where I was, they were definitely trying to hit the target.
Justin

[fifthchamber]

In the dojo where I was, they were definitely trying to hit the target.
Then I am sure that you are right. They are just bad and you did know it better than they did.
That said, I think this thread has gone as far as it can. Justin has written his full name in and gotten some good replies regarding dojo from Andrew S.
I for one have nothing else to add to that list.
Justin. I suggest if those Dojo are not quite good enough, or that they are not quite what you want that you look in the Hiden Guide. All the information that I could have given you would have come from there.
And incidentally, the man I mentioned, who could have given you some idea of the Kyujutsu Sensei in your area is probably making tea and cakes this weekend in the Dojo where they all fail to hit the targets..
Good luck.

[paolo_italy]

Hello Justin,

I thought I could throw my 2 cents by quoting this from Koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html)


I'd like to go to Japan to train in koryu. How can I do this?
We've compiled all our advice on this into two articles: "Koryu Training in Japan" and "Training in Japan."


Can you provide me with the address and phone number of a contact for Thus-and-such-ryu in Japan?
Imagine your seventy-five-year-old grandmother, cozily asleep in her bed. At 3:00 a.m., the phone rings. Being a well-bred old-fashioned type, she answers--despite the hour--and is greeted with an incomprehensible barrage of Swahili. This happens all too frequently to the headmasters of classical traditions in Japan. For this reason, and others that I explain in my article "Koryu Training in Japan," we really cannot provide such information. Fortunately, you are only six jumps away from anyone in the world, so ask around among your acquaintances (your martial arts instructor is a good place to start) and you will eventually find a personal connection that can get you the information or introduction you seek.


Maybe you could try to contact the people at that website asking for any Koryu presence in your area, and then you'll proceed by finding out more by yourself/other help.

You could also have a look here http://www.tenshukaku.de/frameset-e.html
The info on this link page is in German, but you can "translate" :rolleyes: the page through Altavista.com

HTH,

Ciao.

[woodlandjustin]

Thanks Paolo!
Have good training!
Justin