View Full Version : M4 vs Other Bullups as a club??

Lee Mc'pherson
14th September 2006, 13:24
2 Broken stocks from dummy practise and 1 broken stock from cracking it against someones head show it as a bit unreliable.

Your thoughts? Prefrence?

I kind of like the folding G36 from HK very stable but my favorite is the old FAL Para with the metal folding stock :)

7th October 2006, 07:00
two thumbs up for the FAL para or not. Sweet rifle. I've heard lots of good things about the La France M-14s.

joe yang
7th October 2006, 21:42
Not to be jerk here, but a bullpup is not an assault rifle. A bullpup has the magazine behind the trigger group. It matters if you are using the weapon as a club only because it affects the length of the weapon.

9th October 2006, 00:17
I thought the location of the magazine had no bearing on the name. I thought it was barrel length that delineated between a carbine and a rifle?

9th October 2006, 01:44
I think what Joe is saying is that an M4 does not fit into the Bullpup class
due to that way it is designed:

Bullpup Carbine: (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as20-e.htm)


M4 Carbine: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Carbine)


The difference like joe said is that a bullpup has the magazine and
chamber behind the trigger allowing for a longer barrel in a
smaller overall package.

A bullpup can be a carbine, assault rifle or sniper rifle.

My favorite:

Walther WA 2000: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_WA_2000)


joe yang
10th October 2006, 02:19
Thanks for the links Joe. Yes, a bullpup is a carbine, a carbine is not neccessarily a bullpup. I don't usually split hairs, but in this case it may make a difference. A "butt stroke" is typically delivered by holding the weapon by the stock. Modern assault rifles, carbines and bullpups are not usually carried by the stock like an M1 or M14, ready to strike. The stock on a bullpup can be very bulky.

10th October 2006, 02:53
Thanks for the links Joe. Yes, a bullpup is a carbine, a carbine is not neccessarily a bullpup.

But a Bullpup is also not neccessarily a carbine.

I agree though - the SA80 is useless as a club. It's bayonet is also terrible.

joe yang
10th October 2006, 06:49
I stand corrected, the bullpup design is not limited to carbines.

Lee Mc'pherson
11th October 2006, 11:25
Ok ok guys but you know what i meant. So what about it any other guns you can recommend (folding stock)

joe yang
12th October 2006, 06:38
Lee, it isn't all entirely a digression. The grip on a bullpup may be too thick for a solid, striking grasp. Transitioning from the pistol grip to the stock on an "assault weapon" for a strike may not allow time for a solid grip. A weak grip can't help a weak stock, but hair splitting aside, wood stocks are generally the solid, particularly the laminated ones. Some of the fiber filled synthetic stocks are more stable. Folding stocks might be a poor choice.

Lee Mc'pherson
12th October 2006, 10:45
Fair point my friend but we cant always be so picky about what we get issued with. Just for conversation sake what is your preferred weapon?

joe yang
15th October 2006, 02:02
Well since you are talking issue weapons I imagine you are talking military. My background is LEO and civilian professional and I find handguns and shotgun more practical. When it comes to carbines the A4 is almost the default weapon of choice here.

Pavol Schreiner
25th October 2006, 04:12
Gentlemen, I have read with great interest for a long time but I thought it was time to post, so here goes....

I know that this subject began relating specifically to using a carbine/assault rifle in melee but it seems to have widened.

The most important factor, in my opinion, for an assault rifle/carbine (or any other personal firearm) is whether it is suitable for the environment it is being used in. The current focal point of operations is the middle east, a dusty, dry environment with lots of sand.

The apparent "weapon of choice" for security professionals appears to be the Colt M4 carbine. This only works well in such an environment because of the specialist oils and cleaners used on it on a continuous basis. It is high maintenace (just like my old girlfriend). The "enemy" in this region, for example the Taliban, do not have these accessories and rely on a more reliable weapon... the AK47 and its derivatives/versions.

Okay, the AK47 and its brethern lack the accuracy of more modern carbines/assault rifle and it is old and was "mass produced" but it is reliable. It does the job for our foes! and should never be under estimated. Fundamenetally it is metal and a special plastic/compressed wood which makes it a good club as well!

My favourite carbine is the Czechoslovak SA58 tactical (5.56 calibre), it has a similar design to the Kalasnikov but is a lot thinner without losing its sturdiness. The quality of production is also much higher. I used the SA58 for most operations whilst I was in Cechensko (Chechniya), Dagestan, Siberia and the former Yugoslavia.

Incidentially my pistol of choice is the H&K USP 40 S&W calibre.

Thanks for reading.....

Pavol Schreiner
27th October 2006, 00:17
My favourite carbine is the Czechoslovak SA58 tactical (5.56 calibre)

Thanks for reading.....

Apologies, It is 7.62 calibre.

Lee Mc'pherson
27th October 2006, 08:40
Like i have said in other posts these days i swear by the five.seven as a sidearm. And the G36 ismy preffered rifle at the moment. Never seen this Chec. rifle you mention i've seen the rip off form the ol FN but not this one you mention. Can you direct me to a link with more info or post a pic and some stats for it? Thanks.

29th October 2006, 22:26
Do a Google Image search - it brings up some more pics.

Budoka 34
30th October 2006, 16:57

I'm assuming you mean the Czech Vz-58. It uses a tilting breachblock type action not a Kalashnakov action (rotating bolt).

I'm with you here, an excellent weapon.

Pavol Schreiner
2nd November 2006, 19:15
Yes, the Vz-58. Vz meas Vzor which means "model" in czechoslovak. The picture shows the old original model for infantry (drivers model has a folding metal stock which is also the model for Special Ops/LEO). The special model has a laser sight and silencer option.

The model I use is the shortened model, it has a metal folding stock and a shorter barrel, a newer compensator and can have optical accessories/sights etc. It makes it a lot more compact and I've carried it covertly reasonably comfortably.

I will try and find a picture of the newer model and post it here. The base is the same but its use of accessories make it able to stand alongside modern carbines like the M4.

During the Eastern Block, all Warsaw Pact countries used the Kalasnikov AK47 from Russia but Czechoslovakia had permission to make the SA58 as it had a very famous and old weapons factory in Brno and Uhersky Brod. The English Bren machine gun is a gun from this factory.

I have looked at a few internet sites who have stated, incorrectly, that the SA vz 58 has not seen battle. This is not true and has been used in many conflicts (Afghanistan during the Russian conflicts and today, Africa, India, Vietnam, South America). After time the soldiers and other professionals who get a chance to use this weapon choose this weapon over the AK47.

John Lindsey
10th December 2006, 17:38
I have always hit with the barrel end with my M4. Never any issues. Even did a kesa giri style cut to someone's neck. :)

As for a buttstock, the LMT brand SOPMOD stock is tuff as nails. Great cheek weld too.

18th December 2006, 00:05
2 Broken stocks from dummy practise and 1 broken stock from cracking it against someones head show it as a bit unreliable.

Your thoughts? Prefrence?

I kind of like the folding G36 from HK very stable but my favorite is the old FAL Para with the metal folding stock :)

For a more solid adjustable stock for CAR-15 / M4 weapons systems, check out the Magpul M93 Modular Stock systems (http://www.magpul.com). Solid as a rock, more adjustable, and quite capable as a club.


18th December 2006, 12:02
I would recommend the AK5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK_5) (swedish version of the FN FNC). It has a folding stock and is durable, accurate and needs little maintenace. The only drawback is that the AK5 is a bit heavy but in this case it's not really an disadvantage.

Lee Mc'pherson
19th December 2006, 11:10
Stock kept breaking at the same point on the top center of the joint. I'll try and find a pic if we have any. Still use it but with a modified stock point (a cover of steel) like a sort of ring open onthe bottom end.