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Shinobi
29th September 2006, 05:04
1978 Bugei Ryūha Daijiten Pages 626 - 627, Watatani & Yamada

戸隠流( 忍 )
高松寿嗣が編成した系譜である。戸田真竜軒の口伝による伝承と
いう。戸田真竜軒( 一心斎 )は明治四十一年九十歳にて死去。この
系譜によれば、異匀という者より発し、養和年間の白雲道士の白
雲流より分かれ、甲賀・伊賀両流の忍術になり、百地三太夫の系
統を経て、紀州藩名取流に入り、戸田信綱以降は戸田氏に伝承し
たことになっている。系譜は諸伝の資料や口伝を参照して潤色を
加え、文献上実在の人物も実際より年代を古くしている点がある
ように思われる。

Togakure-ryū (Nin)

Takamatsu Toshitsugu ga hensei shita keifu de aru. Toda Shinryūken no kuden ni yoru denshō to iu. Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai) wa Meiji 41-nen 90-sai nite shikyo. Kono keifu ni yoreba, Ikai to iu mono yori hasshi, Yōwa-nenkan no Hakuun Dōshi no Hakuun-ryū yori wakare, Kōga - Iga ryō-ryū no ninjutsu ni nari, Momochi Sandayū no keitō wo hete, Kishū-han Natori-ryū ni hairi, Toda Nobutsuna ikō wa Toda-uji ni denshō shita koto ni natte iru. Keifu wa shoden no shiryō ya kuden wo sanshô shite junshoku wo kuwae, bunken jō jitsuzai no jinbutsu mo jissai yori nendai wo furuku shite iru ten ga aru yō ni omowareru.

"This is the genealogy organized by Takamatsu Toshitsugu. The succession is an oral tradition from Toda Shinryūken. Toda Shinryūken Masamitsu passed away in 1908 at the age of 90 years old. According to the lineage, Ikai originated the school, and in the Yōwa period (1181-1182), it separated from Hakuun Dōshi of Hakuun-ryū and became the Kōga and Iga schools of ninjutsu. The lineage passed through Momochi Sandayū and entered into the Natori-ryū of Kishū domain. From the time of Toda Nobutsuna, the tradition was passed on to the Toda family. The genealogy includes embellishments by referring to data and kuden about persons whose existence is based on written materials and traditions in order to appear older than it actually is."

*If one see's any inaccuracies in the translation, we'll be glad to update it. The use of wo vs o in the romanization, is my choice to make it easier to read.

Here is the lineage that we know of to date with my notes in ( ) to make things clearer.
01. Togakure Daisuke (original family name is Nishina, learns Hakuun-ryū)
02. Shima Kosanta Minamoto-no Kanesada (also learns from Kain Dōshi)
03. Togakure Gorō (founder)
04. Togakure Kosanta
05. Kōga Kisanta
06. Kaneko Tomoharu
07. Togakure Ryūhō
08. Togakure Gakuun
09. Kido Kōseki
10. Iga Tenryū
11. Ueno Rihei
12. Ueno Senri
13. Ueno Manjirō
14. Iizuka Saburō
15. Sawada Gorō
16. Ōzaru Ippei
17. Tomata Hachirō
18. Kataoka Heizaemon
19. Mori Ugenta
20. Toda Gobei
21. Kanbe Seiun
22. Momochi Kōbe
23. Tobari Tenzen
24. Toda Seiryū Nobutsuna (also learned Natori branch)
25. Toda Fudō Nobuchika
26. Toda Kangorō Nobuyasu
27. Toda Eisaburō Nobumasa
28. Toda Shinbei Masachika
29. Toda Shingorō Masayoshi
30. Toda Daigorō Chikahide
31. Toda Daisaburō Chikashige
32. Toda Shinryūken Masamitsu (step-grandfather of Toshitsugu)
33. Takamatsu Toshitsugu
34. Hatsumi Masaaki

-----------------------------

So we see Takamatsu-sensei helped organize the lineage since it was an oral tradition from Toda Shinryūken. Kuden (oral transmission) was the method of transmission for most if not all ninjutsu. We see the lineage has embellishments early on in its history. The origins should not be taken as fact, yet rather as legend as is the case of other martial arts in their beginning including very well known and documented styles.

For one, we know through the other related ryūha that Ikai didn't originate the school, yet according to legend brought the origins of what was to become kosshijutsu, koppōjutsu and ninjutsu via China. Other legends like Gamon Dōshi (aka Fujiwara Chikado) are listed.

Two, we see origins for other ninjutsu ryūha and non-ninjutsu ryūha in the lineage chart provided such as; Hakuun-ryū ninjutsu, Kukishinden happō bikenjutsu, Shinden Fudō-ryū dakentaijutsu, Gyokko-ryū kosshijutsu and Iga-ryū ninjutsu which should be taken as legend. Why Watatani & Yamada (authors of the Daijiten) and or Takamatsu presented the lineage with the extra tie-in's is still a mystery. This is where the embellishments could be, but we just don’t know.

Three, Nishina Daisuke is credited as the originator after learning Hakuun-ryū ninjutsu from Kain Dōshi and then it was founded 2 generations later by Togakure Gorō allegedly.

I and others have suggested that a (chukōso "rejuvenator") was most likely in the lineage at some point which was probably Toda Seiryū Nobutsuna who also learned the Natori branch of the style, but this is speculation on our part, but a probability to consider. So in the future if or when records of Toda Shinryūken are found, we can at least suggest the style goes back unbroken until the 1600's.

I will also post the 1969 versions and 1963/1965 when I have the time, which are considered less accurate with more errors then this 1978 version including a inaccurate date for the age of death for Toda-sensei in the original printing.

Hope this helps and resolves lots of unnecessary bickering and attacks on the Takamatsu-den arts.

kennin
29th September 2006, 05:10
Ouch! This must hurt certain people like an arrow in their seating area!

Congratulations on a job well done, Weil-san!

snake-eyes78
2nd October 2006, 02:18
well said. this information has always been around, but i don't think that people want to accept the fact that the togakure ryu, just like so many other schools/ryu-ha/methods that have roots extending back to (and beyond) japan's feudal era, have been past down orally, with very few (if any) written records surviving. this can definately make it rather difficult to sort out fact from fiction. some people just can't accept anything that has not been put down in black and white. too bad for them.

kuoshu
3rd October 2006, 12:25
The 1969 version is a lot less favourable. I have not read it as a primary source, but I have read the translation of it that is given in Wolfgang Ettig's new book on Mr Takamatsu. Ettig also writes how Mr Watatani made some pretty negative remarks about the ryu-ha in an Appendix. I borrowed the book and don't have it with me now, but I'd urge people to read it. Mr Ettig also seems somewhat unconvinced by the claims. He has done a very good job of writing an *objective* and critical look at the man.

George Kohler
4th October 2006, 06:54
Eric sent me this by PM


Bugei Ryūha Daijiten, 1969, page 537, Watatani & Yamada

戸隠流( 忍 ) Togakure-ryū (nin)
高松寿嗣が、大正後の忍術読物の流行を利用して新しく編成した
系譜である。戸田真竜軒の口伝による伝承という。戸田真竜軒( 一
心斎 )は明治十三年に七十三歳にて死去。高松はそれより四年後
の生誕。この系譜によれば、異匀という者より発し、養和年間の
白雲道士の白雲流より分かれ、甲賀・伊賀両流の忍術になり、百
地三太夫の系統を経て、紀州落名取流に入り、戸田信綱以降は戸
田氏に伝承したことになっている。しかし、その系譜は、諸伝の
資料や口伝を参照して、潤色を加えた点が多く、文献上実在の人
物も、実際より年代を古くしているなど、なかなか苦心の労作で
ある。
Takamatsu Toshitsugu ga, Taishō ato no ninjutsu yomimono no ryūkō wo riyō shite atarashiku hensei shita keifu de aru. Toda Shinryūken no kuden ni yoru denshō to iu. Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai) wa Meiji-jūsan-nen (1880) ni 73-sai nite shikyo. Takamatsu wa sore yori yon-nen ato no seitan. Kono keifu ni yoreba, Ikai to iu mono yori hasshi, Yōwa-nenkan (1181) no Hakuun Dōshi no Hakuun-ryū yori wakare, Kōga - Iga ryō-ryū no ninjutsu ni nari, Momochi Sandayū no keitō wo hete, Kishū-han Natori-ryū ni hairi, Toda Nobutsuna ikō wa Toda-uji ni denshō shita koto ni natte iru. Shikashi, sono keifu wa, shoden no shiryō ya kuden wo sanshō shite, junshoku wo kuwaeta ten ga ōku, bunken jō jitsuzai no jinbutsu mo, jissai yori nendai wo furuku shite iru nado, nakanaka kushin no rōsaku de aru.

*The dates of Toda Shinryūken are considered wrong and corrected in the 1978 edition.

Thanks to Professor Peter Goldsbury for the translation below.

This is a genealogy newly put together by Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who made use of (took advantage of) the popularity of written materials on ninjutsu after the Taishō era. The transmission is said to be based on oral teachings of Toda Shinryūken. Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai) died in Meiji 13 at the age of 73. Takamatsu’s birth took place four years later. According to this lineage, the ryū originated with a person named Ikai, separated from Hakuun Dōshi of Hakuun-ryū in the Yōwa era, became the Kōga and Iga-ryū of ninjutsu, passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayū, entered the Natori-ryū of Kishū domain, and from Toda Nobutsuna onwards came to be passed down by the Toda clan. However, this genealogy refers to a variety of traditions and oral teachings, there are many points where it has added embellishments, it has made people whose real existence is based on written records older than is actually the case, and so it is a product of very considerable labor.

George Kohler
4th October 2006, 06:57
And he sent this, as well.


Bugei Ryūha Jiten, 1963, page 293, Watatani & Yamada

戸隠流( 忍 )Togakure-ryū (nin)
戸田真竜軒( 一心斎。明治十三年死、七十三歳 )の口
伝によれば、異匀という者より発し、養和年間の白雲
道士の白雲流より分かれ、甲賀・伊賀両流の忍術にな
り、百地三太夫の系統を経て紀州落名取流に入り、戸
田信綱以降は戸田氏に伝承したことになっている。し
かしその系譜は諸伝の資料や口伝を参照して潤色を加
えた点が多く、系譜にのっている人物も実際より年代
を古くしているなど、真竜軒が幕末のころに新しく編
成したものと思われる。【次頁の系図参照】
Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai. Meiji-jūsan-nen [1880] shi, 73-sai) no kuden ni yoreba, Iin to iu mono yori hasshi, Yōwa-nenkan [1181] no Hakuun Dōshi no Hakuun-ryū yori wakare, Kōga - Iga ryō-ryū no ninjutsu ni nari, Momochi Sandayū no keitō wo hete Kishū-han Natori-ryū ni hairi, Toda Nobutsuna ikō wa Toda-uji ni denshō shita koto ni natte iru. Shikashi sono keifu wa shoden no shiryō ya kuden wo sanshō shite junshoku wo kuwaeta ten ga ōku, keifu ni notte iru jinbutsu mo jissai yori nendai wo furuku shite iru nado, Shinryūken ga bakumatsu no koro ni atarashiku hensei shita mono to omowareru. (jipeeji no keizu sanshō)

*The dates of Toda Shinryūken's death are considered wrong and corrected in the 1978 edition.

Thanks to Professor Peter Goldsbury for the translation below.

According to the oral teachings of Toda Shinryūken (Isshinsai, died aged 73 in Meiji 13 [1880]), a person named Ikai originated the ryū; in the Yōwa era [1181] it separated from Hakuun Dōshi's Hakuun-ryū; it became the Kōga and Iga-ryū of ninjutsu; it passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayū and entered the Natori-ryū of the Kishū domain; and from Toda Nobutsuna onwards came to be passed down by/in the Toda family. However, this genealogy refers to various written records and oral transmissions and there are many points/places where embellishments have been added and people appearing in the genealogy are also made older than they actually are. Thus the genealogy can be considered to be something that (Toda) Shinryūken newly arranged around the end of the Tokugawa shōgunate. (lineage chart appended on the following page).

George Kohler
4th October 2006, 07:22
The 1969 version is a lot less favourable. I have not read it as a primary source,

First, you must remember that the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and the Bugei Ryuha Jiten are not primary sources. They are secondary sources.

Second, the dictionary was revised from the 1969 version. The last being in 1978, 6 years after the death of Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei.

George Kohler
4th October 2006, 21:21
This thread will probably be moved to the archive forum in a couple of weeks. If you want to make a comment about the accuracy of the lineage or if it is a "koryu" then please use either of the following threads:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31690
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35283
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35406

George Kohler
5th October 2006, 04:02
I'm still trying to figure out where this "ninja gokko" ("ninja make-believe games") quotes are coming from. Is there another edition?

Ron Beaubien
5th October 2006, 09:41
Hello,


First, you must remember that the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and the Bugei Ryuha Jiten are not primary sources. They are secondary sources.
Yes and no. Watatani's books would be a secondary source for most of Togakure-ryu's supposedly long history. However during Watatani Kiyoshi's lifetime, any information in his books would be considered as being primary sources ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_sources ).

Watatani Kiyoshi was a personal friend of Takamatsu Toshitsugu. The information in the book regarding Togakure-ryu during the period that Watatani was alive would be considered an primary source.

Actually, since we haven't been able to find any trace that Toda existed nor use of the name Togakure-ryu before Takamatsu's used the name, Watatani's books may even be the oldest independent primary sources on Togakure-ryu history.


Second, the dictionary was revised from the 1969 version. The last being in 1978, 6 years after the death of Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei.

I'm still trying to figure out where this "ninja gokko" ("ninja make-believe games") quotes are coming from. Is there another edition?
Yes, we are missing at least one edition of the book:

"Hatsumi's titles to most of the ryuha he claims to be soke for come from Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who in turn claimed to have inherited them from Toda Masamitsu. It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his 'ninpo' ryuha and teachings from 'ninja-gokko' ('childhood ninja games')."

( Friday, Karl. "Re: Ninja and NInjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAIDO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA>, Wednesday, May 19th, 1999. Archived at: http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9905&L=iaido-l&P=R6422&I=-3 )

If I'm not mistaken there was even a scan of the text uploaded to E-Budo before the big crash when a lot of things were lost. I don't have a copy of this version, although I have seen it in used bookstores several times.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

God'zilla
5th October 2006, 09:53
I'm still trying to figure out where this "ninja gokko" ("ninja make-believe games") quotes are coming from. Is there another edition?


Is this where the gokko ninja quote came from?

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25766&page=2&pp=15

fifthchamber
5th October 2006, 14:26
No.
Reference was made a long time before that to the line that Ron refers to above.
See his post for more on that.
Regards.

George Kohler
5th October 2006, 17:50
Yes, we are missing at least one edition of the book:

"Hatsumi's titles to most of the ryuha he claims to be soke for come from Takamatsu Toshitsugu, who in turn claimed to have inherited them from Toda Masamitsu. It's worth noting, in this context, that in the third edition of the *Bugei ryuha daijiten* Watatani Kiyoshi stated that Takamatsu (who was, BTW, a personal friend of his) had created his 'ninpo' ryuha and teachings from 'ninja-gokko' ('childhood ninja games')."

( Friday, Karl. "Re: Ninja and NInjato" on the Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAIDO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA>, Wednesday, May 19th, 1999. Archived at: http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9905&L=iaido-l&P=R6422&I=-3 )

If I'm not mistaken there was even a scan of the text uploaded to E-Budo before the big crash when a lot of things were lost. I don't have a copy of this version, although I have seen it in used bookstores several times.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Hello Mr. Beaubien,

You already proved my point that the books are secondary sources, so no argument there.

As for the "Gokko" quote, can you please cite the book for me. It appears that Dr. Friday didn't cite the work correctly, since I'm not sure which year is considered the 3rd edition.

Thank you,

Baio
5th October 2006, 18:48
the third edition was the 1978 edition the first was 63 and the second was 69.

P Goldsbury
8th October 2006, 02:35
The edition I have is a revised printing of the 1978 edition, published in Heisei 15 (2003). The revisions were made by one Yasuhiro Saito.

George Kohler
11th October 2006, 03:30
Does anyone have the missing edition?

Ron Beaubien
13th October 2006, 23:47
Dear Mr. Kohler,

Sorry for the delay in responding. It is festival time here in Japan and so I will be quite busy the next few weeks.


You already proved my point that the books are secondary sources, so no arguement there.
Sorry, I'm a little confused here. Am I reading this right? I proved your point that they are secondary sources? Maybe that was just a typographical error, but that wasn't exactly my intention.

My poorly worded post (Sorry, I didn't get a chance to edit it as I got distracted with other things...) was intending to show that Watatani Kiyoshi's books were a primary source of information regarding Togakure-ryu based on the fact that the two lived during the same time period and were even friends.


As for the "Gokko" quote, can you please cite the book for me. It appears that Dr. Friday didn't cite the work correctly, since I'm not sure which year is concidered the 3rd edition.
I would love to provide a citation and add the text from the book here, but as I mentioned before I don't actually have a copy of that version of the book myself, although I have seen it in bookstores before.

Japanese books usually have short print runs compared to the West. Watatani Kiyoshi was also well known for publishing revisions of Bugei Ryuha Daijiten in booklet form. If he indeed only published with three editions of his book as Dean said, then it appears that at the very least the entry to "Togakure-ryu" was edited once between print runs of the third edition, if not other places as well, which would account for the different entries.

I'm still looking for the other copy of the book. However, it is difficult as we don't have don't have the full bibliographic information from the books above, only the dates, which makes searching more difficult.

Regards,

Ron

Ghost Cat
21st October 2006, 01:18
My poorly worded post (Sorry, I didn't get a chance to edit it as I got distracted with other things...) was intending to show that Watatani Kiyoshi's books were a primary source of information regarding Togakure-ryu based on the fact that the two lived during the same time period and were even friends.

I think that what George Kohler was saying was that Watatani could only be a primary source about Takamatsu himself. He would not be a primary source for the stories about the history of the Togakure ryu that Takamatsu told. Things like the "Shinsh? Nishina Maki" would be primary sources for that. The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten is not a primary source about the histories of the arts it tells, it merely repeats what Watatani was able to find.

George Kohler
24th June 2010, 22:56
I know that this doesn't prove the existence of Togakure-ryu prior to Takamatsu Sensei or Toda Shinryuken (and his ancestors), but I want to show that several family names in question are listed as families in Iga. The set of 8 books called Kosei Iran-ki (校正伊亂記) written by Momochi Orinosuke (百地織之助) in 1897 has a list of about 40 names. Togakure (戸隠) and Toda (戸田) are among those names.

George Kohler
24th June 2010, 23:27
The following information is listed elsewhere in this forum...

Here is a rough translation (translated by Scott Robbins) of the Hanbojutsu book, specifically the preface written by Soya Shinji pages 3-5 dated April 3, 1983. (Hatsumi Masaaki, Hanbojutsu, Tessenjutsu, Juttejutsu. Tokyo: Tsuchiya Shoten, 1983.)


Daisuke was born into Nishina family in Shinshū which was closely related to the Azumino province. There is a detailed description in the book, "Shinshū Nishina Maki" (信州仁科巻) of which I have a copy. Nishina Shinmeigu (仁科神明社), which is located in Omachi, is the family's shrine. The sacred area in Mt. Izuna which is famous for "Izuna Shugendo" and "Izuna Tsukai" has been maintained by the Nishina family. In that gentle lineage, the name of Yukihiro Nishina (仁科幸弘), father of Daisuke, is noted as a vassal of Yoshinaka Kiso.

In the war of Yokota-kawara, the Yoshinaka troops won its early stage victory by deceiving the enemy with red flags of "Heike" and on another occasion they used "Kagyu" tactics at Kurikara pass. Those stategies might have been planned by the Nishina family. As it is clearly described in "the Genpei Seisuiki", the surprise attack stategy of Yoshinaka was a kind of guerilla tactic which utilized the topographies of the mountains skillfully. It is not just a guess that Nishina family participated in those tactics...

ScholarsInk
25th June 2010, 06:43
The following information is listed elsewhere in this forum...

Here is a rough translation (translated by Scott Robbins) of the Hanbojutsu book, specifically the preface written by Soya Shinji pages 3-5 dated April 3, 1983. (Hatsumi Masaaki, Hanbojutsu, Tessenjutsu, Juttejutsu. Tokyo: Tsuchiya Shoten, 1983.)
Thank you very much Mr Kohler. I was curious about that introduction ever since I saw that exchange between Mr Roley and yourself about it a while back.

Would you mind explaining who Soya Shinji is? I'm very much a newcomer to these arts and I was not able to find out through searching.

George Kohler
25th June 2010, 09:41
Would you mind explaining who Soya Shinji is? I'm very much a newcomer to these arts and I was not able to find out through searching.

Soya Shinji (宗谷真爾) was a doctor and a writer (novelist). He passed away on April 22, 1991 at the age of 65.

ScholarsInk
25th June 2010, 19:40
Thank you.

Ron Beaubien
26th June 2010, 02:14
The following information is listed elsewhere in this forum...

Here is a rough translation (translated by Scott Robbins) of the Hanbojutsu book, specifically the preface written by Soya Shinji pages 3-5 dated April 3, 1983. (Hatsumi Masaaki, Hanbojutsu, Tessenjutsu, Juttejutsu. Tokyo: Tsuchiya Shoten, 1983.):

"Daisuke was born into Nishina family in Shinshū which was closely related to the Azumino province. There is a detailed description in the book, "Shinshū Nishina Maki" (信州仁科巻) of which I have a copy. Nishina Shinmeigu (仁科神明社), which is located in Omachi, is the family's shrine. The sacred area in Mt. Izuna which is famous for "Izuna Shugendo" and "Izuna Tsukai" has been maintained by the Nishina family. In that gentle lineage, the name of Yukihiro Nishina (仁科幸弘), father of Daisuke, is noted as a vassal of Yoshinaka Kiso.

In the war of Yokota-kawara, the Yoshinaka troops won its early stage victory by deceiving the enemy with red flags of "Heike" and on another occasion they used "Kagyu" tactics at Kurikara pass. Those stategies might have been planned by the Nishina family. As it is clearly described in "the Genpei Seisuiki", the surprise attack stategy of Yoshinaka was a kind of guerilla tactic which utilized the topographies of the mountains skillfully. It is not just a guess that Nishina family participated in those tactics... "



However, as was also mentioned elsewhere in this forum, the Genpei Seisuiki (which is an extended version of the Heike Monogatari and copied down from the oral songs of traveling blind biwa players) has already been largely discredited as a work containing a good dose of pure fiction.

In Warriors of Japan: As Portrayed in the War Tales, the author Dr. Paul H. Varley states that the book "focuses on how warriors are portrayed in their literature." Referring to the war tales such as the Heike Monogatari and Genpei Seisuiki, Dr. Varley then clearly explains that: "Until recently they were regarded as generally reliable records of the past" (page xi). Dr. Varley then goes on to describe these war tales as "...mixtures of truth and fancy" and describes the "...often difficult (often impossible) task of trying to distinguish between fact and fiction" (page xi).

Although texts like the Genpei Seisuiki and Heike Monogatari can be interesting reads about the time period, it seems completely clear that they are not regarded as being historically reliable sources by reputable scholars.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

George Kohler
26th June 2010, 03:44
The main point of the quote being posted here in this thread is the Shinshū Nishina Maki (信州仁科巻), which according to Soya Shinji, lists Nishina Daisuke and his father, Nishina Yukihiro.

Kevin Geaslin
28th June 2010, 21:23
I don't have a translation of the BRDJT but didn't Watatani "revise" what he'd said about Takamatsu sensei making up modern ninjutsu from children's games in the 3rd edition? As was stated early in this thread, they were friends, so I can't see why he'd slander him and then correct it unless he'd seen some sort of proof.

George Kohler
28th June 2010, 22:35
I don't have a translation of the BRDJT but didn't Watatani "revise" what he'd said about Takamatsu sensei making up modern ninjutsu from children's games in the 3rd edition? As was stated early in this thread, they were friends, so I can't see why he'd slander him and then correct it unless he'd seen some sort of proof.

See post 6 for the 1963 book. This book has a slightly different name - Bugei Ryūha Jiten (missing the "Dai").

See post 5 for the 1969 edition.

See post 1 for the 1978 edition.

Kevin Geaslin
28th June 2010, 23:43
Ahh, thanks. I was wondering if the Jiten was the same publication. I wonder if any koryu researchers will ever compile a new edition - there has to have been some new stuff uncovered in the past 30 years. Do organizations like the Kobudo Shinkokai keep a public listing of all the accepted ryuha?

George Kohler
29th June 2010, 00:33
Maybe those questions should be put in another thread. I'm trying to keep this thread just for references to Togakure-ryū.

skuggvarg
25th October 2010, 18:22
I know that this doesn't prove the existence of Togakure-ryu prior to Takamatsu Sensei or Toda Shinryuken (and his ancestors), but I want to show that several family names in question are listed as families in Iga. The set of 8 books called Kosei Iran-ki (校正伊亂記) written by Momochi Orinosuke (百地織之助) in 1897 has a list of about 40 names. Togakure (戸隠) and Toda (戸田) are among those names.

Dear George,
Can you elaborate on this? Does the list say anything else about the names? Why does it list those 4o families?

Regards / Skuggvarg

Baio
18th December 2010, 04:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DBML1AM7gI&feature=sub apparently nishina daisuke isnt in the genpei seisuiki

Shinobi
5th January 2011, 00:05
apparently nishina daisuke isnt in the genpei seisuiki
who ever said he was?

William King
5th January 2011, 05:12
This comment is in regards to Nishina and the misinterpretation that his "name" appears in the Genpei Seisuiki. The forward from the Hanbojutsu book does not state Nishina's name appears in the Genpei Seisuiki. It talks about war strategies that I believe Hatsumi-sensei says might have been done by the Nishina family.

There's an online "investigation" going on in Youtube by Antony Cummins and some of his internet friends who are on a hunt to prove Togakure Ryu false - unfortunately, all they are doing right now is tearing apart old rumors and SKH mistakes about history.

William King

TomD
12th March 2011, 19:46
Dear George,
Can you elaborate on this? Does the list say anything else about the names? Why does it list those 4o families?

Regards / Skuggvarg

There is also a reference to this work/list in Kacem's book, BTW. We spoke about this on Kutaki a while ago. It does not say anything specific about this, yet to me it gives the impression that just a list of names is given, nothing else.

Regards, TomD