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Carl Long
20th December 2006, 17:37
Hi Gang,

Has anyone ever run into this before? I just returned from a teaching tour in Argentina and when I got home I discovered that one of my representatives in Argentina is being sued by another instructor there for advertising that I was going there to teach Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu. According to the lawsuit, this other gentleman (he has no rank in MJERI) has claimed to have the sole rights to the name "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu" as a service mark in Argentina. This gentleman is also a kendo renmei representative according to him. The lawsuit filed has requested a payment of $50,000.00 Argentina. I wonder if his MJERI teacher in Japan knows about this? I have literally traveled around the world teaching MJERI and I have never encountered anything like this before.

Any comments or thoughts? He is a member of another MJER group from Japan according to his advertising....

Looking forward to your thoughts...

Regards,

Prince Loeffler
20th December 2006, 18:01
Hello Mr. Long ! I am sorry to hear this, However, due to the fact that there is a case pending. I strongly adviced that you seek legal counsel for advice, as anything you may say here could be detrimental to your defense.

Sorry to so blunt and cold.

Ken-Hawaii
20th December 2006, 18:04
They've copyrighted & trademarked stranger things, Carl. :rolleyes:

At least he doesn't appear to be trying to claim rights to MJER worldwide.... But I think the term "prior usage" may come into play somewhere around here.

Carl Long
20th December 2006, 18:07
Sorry if I mislead you Mr. Loeffler. I am not named in the suit filed as one of the defendants. Thanks for the advice and concern though...;)

Prince Loeffler
20th December 2006, 18:36
Sorry if I mislead you Mr. Loeffler. I am not named in the suit filed as one of the defendants. Thanks for the advice and concern though...;)


Gotcha ! Just looking out that's all. Thanks for the clarification !

Chidokan
20th December 2006, 18:55
just as a matter of curiosity... Is he claiming the name for iai, or for say washing up liquid or something??? :D
I'd better get a claim in for worldwide rights quick!!! It could be the way to go for Mcdojos! What a brand name! Can you imagine how much that sign would cost in burger bar size letters???? :rolleyes:

Carl Long
20th December 2006, 19:18
just as a matter of curiosity... Is he claiming the name for iai, or for say washing up liquid or something??? :D
I'd better get a claim in for worldwide rights quick!!! It could be the way to go for Mcdojos! What a brand name! Can you imagine how much that sign would cost in burger bar size letters???? :rolleyes:

Hi Tim,

That's a very good question. I wonder if he has applied for a service mark for "Kendo" or "Iaido" in Argentina as well. I just can't imagine the powers that be in the kendo world or his Iaijutsu Soke in Japan would let a guy like this get away with such a thing. It sure doesn't look very good for what they profess to teach. I know that his MJERI instructor in Japan is being contacted to see if he has his support regarding such things. I can't hardly imagine he does, considering that his alledged instructor travels worldwide trying to diseminate a Japanese cultural art form in countries other than Argentina. That could be a financial disaster for his teacher.

Carl Long
20th December 2006, 23:33
Wow! It has come to my attention that this guy has also filed and feels he owns the trademarks of:

Suio Ryu
Niten Ichi Ryu
Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
Komei Juku

Good luck to any legitimate practitioners that plan to further good will in Argentina while teaching any of those arts. I'll bet Sekiguchi Sensei would love to know he can't teach or use the name of his own organization in Argentina without this guys permission! I'll bet he'll know soon!!

hyaku
21st December 2006, 06:14
Wow! It has come to my attention that this guy has also filed and feels he owns the trademarks of:

Suio Ryu
Niten Ichi Ryu
Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu
Komei Juku

Good luck to any legitimate practitioners that plan to further good will in Argentina while teaching any of those arts. I'll bet Sekiguchi Sensei would love to know he can't teach or use the name of his own organization in Argentina without this guys permission! I'll bet he'll know soon!!

As the present Soke already has intellectual copyright to HNIR he is already trying to trade mark something already taken.

Even then he can call anything what the hell he likes but I doubt if he would be able to write the kanji for any of them!

K. Cantwell
21st December 2006, 14:17
The issue probably comes down to international trade agreements and application of domestic law. What flies in Japan as intellectual property may not be valid in Argentina. Under Argentine law, the trademark may very well be valid.

Take a look at some of the cases involving the big internationals like Coca-Cola. They have literal battalions of people just working on keeping their property rights protected in the legion markets around the world.

Under Argentine law, a ryu may simply be en entity that can be trademarked. This guy just may be a very shrewed business man.

Doesn’t match up with my view of what a ryu is, but I don’t sit on an Argentine court.

Kevin Cantwell

roninseb
22nd December 2006, 06:37
Under Argentine law, a ryu may simply be en entity that can be trademarked. This guy just may be a very shrewed business man.

Doesn’t match up with my view of what a ryu is, but I don’t sit on an Argentine court.

Kevin Cantwell

I am pretty sure what you wrote is actually the case.

Even if what this individual is doing is totally unnaceptable by our standards of tradition loyalty etc.... We have to understand that he registered this as a trademark for a product he sells so hey he was the first one to do it in Argentina so unless his Soke is willing to go to Argentina or Hire some lawyers to work on his behalf there is not much that can be done. So unless there was a big federation of Eishin Ryu just like the Kendo federation then there is not much that can be done to prove he is out of line. Anyway even if he was able to pull this one all it will do anyway is take all his credibilty away when this story gets public like with his name and all so to me battling this in court is pretty childish. They just need to tweak their name a bit to get them off their back and from there live on.

armanox
23rd December 2006, 02:47
I do not believe that his trademarking will hold in court if handled correctly. I would imagine that as soon as it is established that the arts existed long before the individual that he'll lose his trademarks. (Prior (usage | art) anyone?)

Chidokan
23rd December 2006, 12:49
Hopefully he'll lose a fortune. Serve him right. Does he also have the brand names for karate, judo and aikido? Those are the real money spinners and he's missed out! :rolleyes: Shows what he knows about MA doesnt it.... or maybe he's had a 'visit' from karate people who object to this form of idiocy?

DDATFUS
23rd December 2006, 15:03
The issue probably comes down to international trade agreements and application of domestic law. What flies in Japan as intellectual property may not be valid in Argentina. Under Argentine law, the trademark may very well be valid.

Take a look at some of the cases involving the big internationals like Coca-Cola. They have literal battalions of people just working on keeping their property rights protected in the legion markets around the world.


I don't know much about Coke's property rights battles, but if I had to take a guess, I would imagine that they center around people trying to get away with selling knock-off Coke merchandise in a country where Coke's intellectual property rights are vague. I wonder if they ever have to worry about a situation where some country's court says, "I'm sorry, you can't call yourselves Coca-Cola here in Elbonia, because Bubba Bubbavitch over there already trademarked that name."

I'm wondering if perhaps an Argentine court would enforce this guy's property rights against, say, a guy who tried to start up a new club called MJER, but not against a foreigner who has been using the name for years (or centuries) prior to this guy's trademark.

Also, what is the limit of trademarking? If I were to try to trademark or copyright the word "computer," the courts would laugh at me. How would they react if there was no prior trademark on the name "judo" and I tried to get one? Don't you have to show some degree of originality when applying for a trademark, demonstrate that, in some way, your use of the term is unique? I watched oral arguments for a case where a pet toy company had tried to trademark a phrase like "Play Thing" or something like that-- the government was trying to deny the trademark on the grounds that it was not unique enough to justify exclusive use.

Then again, I heard a story a few years ago where there was this high school or college basketball star who had a really cool nickname. One of his classmates realized that the guy was likely to go pro and copyrighted the nickname, figuring that he would be able to get a cut of a potentially lucrative merchandising market. If I remember the story correctly, the courts were upholding his rights to the copyright at the expense of the player, so the franchise just wasn't using that nickname in any of their promotions.

Amir
24th December 2006, 13:08
don't know much about Coke's property rights battles, but if I had to take a guess, I would imagine that they center around people trying to get away with selling knock-off Coke merchandise in a country where Coke's intellectual property rights are vague. I wonder if they ever have to worry about a situation where some country's court says, "I'm sorry, you can't call yourselves Coca-Cola here in Elbonia, because Bubba Bubbavitch over there already trademarked that name."

This has happened with the name "Fanta" here in Israel. Apparaently, long before anyone knew Coca-Cola gave this name to the orange dring, someone else had a trade mark on the name in a related field. Thus, the orange cola dring was known in Israel under the name "Kinly" for many years, until "cola" finally bought the trademark "Fanta" only a couple of years ago.

I am not a lwwyer nor a legal expert, but from my understanding, Prior Usage in another country is not always an immidiatly sufficient claim. The local user of the trade-mark will only be thrown away if you prove he intentionally took a name used by others in orther of gaining money. Even then, in some cases (seee internet domains), even that is not sufficient.



Amir

gendzwil
24th December 2006, 15:24
Under Argentine law, a ryu may simply be en entity that can be trademarked. This guy just may be a very shrewed business man.
Not very shrewd if he figures there's any money to be made from koryu or kendo. Tell you what, I'll sign a contract with him where he can take 50% of my profits, so long as he covers 10% of my expenses.

creinig
24th December 2006, 16:29
Also, what is the limit of trademarking? If I were to try to trademark or copyright the word "computer," the courts would laugh at me. How would they react if there was no prior trademark on the name "judo" and I tried to get one? Don't you have to show some degree of originality when applying for a trademark, demonstrate that, in some way, your use of the term is unique? I watched oral arguments for a case where a pet toy company had tried to trademark a phrase like "Play Thing" or something like that-- the government was trying to deny the trademark on the grounds that it was not unique enough to justify exclusive use.


It can get pretty absurd sometimes.A few years ago for example, Ferrero tried to take over the domain "kinder.at", because they have a trademark for "kinder" for one of their chocolate lines. "Kinder" is the german word for "children".

Deutsche Telekom started some lawsuits (or at least harassments) over other people's use of the capital letter "T" and the color magenta.

And to demonstrate the absurdness of that stuff, despair.com registered a trademark for the ":-(" emoticon: (see http://despair.com/frownonthis.html (Satire!))

Just a few examples from the top of my head...

roninseb
24th December 2006, 16:39
All this to say that Koryu are really bound for exctinction anytime soon. Greatly due to the fact that Koryu were made to be handled in the Japanese fashion nand not in the fashion that we see them handled as pseudo business but at the same time claim that they use real koryu structure. I am not saying that all dojo outside of Japan are like this but when you try to expand too much with books seminars videos etc... and especially try to make a living out of it this is when things get ugly usually and you loose all the aspects of the Koryu structure. Sure the waza might be kept but there is no arguing that when a Koryu is handled as a mean of income here in North-America or Europe then all that it becomes is not really koryu anymore no matter how you want to argue about it.

Kim Taylor
25th December 2006, 04:43
Hey Seb

Don't you have anything better to do on Christmas Eve than post? Boy do folks need to get a life... wait a minute...

Anyway, never mind that... but I'd argue that any time a koryu starts to expand it's in danger of becoming something else... ie it's in danger of splitting.

As Dr. Bodiford pointed out a couple years ago in a famous post, or was it Dr. Friday (incidentally, ask those guys about trademarking koryu names ;-) ) the koryu weren't ever set up for distribution like flower arranging was with it's iemoto system. It was advantageous to the government of the day to keep the "military arts" local and feudal rather than "global". Not that the shishi didn't use the martial arts as a cover to meet and plot anyway, but the idea was to keep the potential opposition divided and uncooperating.

The koryu were never organized into any sort of system that would lend itself to the sort of pyramid schemes that flower arranging and modern commercial martial arts organizations use, with lots of layers of instructors all funneling money to the top. The koryu were mostly an instructor and his direct students. http://ejmas.com/tin/2004tin/tinart_taylor_1104.html

As for lawyers and trademarks... change the name and be done with it. Who cares what it's called, you ought to be choosing your martial art on the instructor rather than the school anyway! (Lord when will beginners ever figure that one out).

And as for the fascination with trying to argue lineage and history through lawyers, well all I can say is that those who live by lawyers will end up broke by lawyers or some such...

Kim Taylor

Ken-Hawaii
25th December 2006, 05:01
Relax, Kim. As you point out, it is Christmas most places by now (we're always the late-comers in Hawaii).

I absolutely agree that students should choose their instructor rather than their school, but in many cases, a beginner may only know the name of the school, be it from books, movies, or some other not-particularly-useful source. But getting them in is what keeps the schools & koryu in existence.

Many moons ago when my wife & I joined our current dojo, our instructor had never taught in the U.S., but he turned out to be the best Sensei I've ever had -- & that covers just over 55 years of martial arts for me. We knew a bit more about kendo, but probably thought that Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu was likely something you ate in a high-class Japanese restaurant. Just goes to show that you can't always do the right thing for the right reason, but sometimes you get lucky :p.

I'm also not sure that I agree with you on your comment that you should "change the name and be done with it." There's usually a good reason that some koryu have existed for centuries, & "brand-name recognition" plays a lot in that longevity, I'm fairly certain. Now this all may be moot in certain countries, assuming that prior art doesn't mean anything there, but unless the actual core content of the koryu (or ryuha) changes, I think it's a really bad idea to just change the name to make some idiot happy. Sounds like something worth fighting about in court...or elsewhere.

roninseb
25th December 2006, 13:51
Hey Seb

Don't you have anything better to do on Christmas Eve than post? Boy do folks need to get a life... wait a minute...

Hahaha Actually you are totally right. I do not have anything better to do since I work for all holidays this year. Seems the money was good enough plus I am getting 4 off days more out of this deal so when I go back to Japan in 07 I will be able to leave for 27 days total so since my wife was working also I decided to do the same.

Anyway back to the topic. What I am mostly trying to express here is that with the way many schools or organizations outside of Japan are selling Koryu stuff like this was bound to happen and to my eyes this is only the beginning.

Anyway merry Christmas to you all.

Chidokan
25th December 2006, 19:35
He only posted because he's not at the dojo...what else is there to do??? :)
God forbid we have to, like, see the family and stuff.... :eek:

Xmas is only allowed in my house if I get an air ticket for Japan. Otherwise I'll sulk. A LOT.

So.... who's up for a trip to argentina then? :D

armanox
25th December 2006, 21:59
Hmmm....Might be worth it if we could raise funds to do so. I'd consider taking a leave of absence from school - ok, maybe not. But it would be interesting. Also, I suprised to see he didn't trademark Seitei Iaido. He missed an oppertunity.

Kim Taylor
26th December 2006, 16:26
I just went and checked, as to the original point of this thread, it seems the guy trademarked the name of his own style, nothing amazing about that, he's protecting his own koryu name presumably. Quite possibly with the full knowledge and endorsement of his seniors. It seems to be "the thing to do" to protect the arts these days since several people seem to be doing it.

Now as to trademarking other koryu names, perhaps he's full of good intentions and will happily permit use of the name by the legitimate users. Of course that means that he gets to decide who's legit, but then again, we've been doing that on this website for years haven't we? ;-)

Hello? Nobody here? Everyone shopping on boxing day?

Kim.

DDATFUS
26th December 2006, 18:16
The problem is that he seems to be threatening legal action against legitimate practitioners of his own style-- perhaps his seniors in the art-- for using the name he trademarked. That makes me doubt your theory that he'll happily allow legitimate practitioners to use the names that he has trademarked.

K. Cantwell
26th December 2006, 19:03
Not very shrewd if he figures there's any money to be made from koryu or kendo.

No, but he may be able to put legitimate pratitioners at a significant disadvantage in Argentina by means of the trademark.

He has, for all intents and purposes, prevented anyone from teaching MJERI without paying him a usage fee. That's where the money is, I would imagine. He leaves legitimate teachers with a hard choice in Argentina: either pay him to use the name, or change the name of the ryu. The latter would lead to more confusion, so he probably figures some people will just cave and give him the cash. If the law is on this guy’s side, there is nothing they can do except pay or write Argentina off as a training venue.

As a proponent of the traditional ryu, I am appalled at what this guy is doing. As an opponent of globalization, however, I can't say I am surprised. Everything is for sale, and things like tradition and honor have nothing to do with global markets or intellectual property. This fallout is hitting our neck of the woods, but I would imagine the system is functioning like it should on the economic and legal level. (Look at the recent controversies over Basmati rice or the "owning" of rainwater in Bolivia.)

It seems ludicrous that someone in Argentina could trademark a traditional combative art of Japan, thereby preventing caretakers of the ryu from using the name there. I’ll bet, though, he’ll get away with it. It doesn’t really seem to be about caretakers and students anymore. It seems we’ve reached the stage of legal koryu licensing.

Kevin Cantwell

Doc-G
27th December 2006, 10:36
Surely everybody could at least contact the guy to let him know EXACTLY what we think of him?

George Ujvary

Hishaam Bendiar
27th December 2006, 13:27
When the kendo world forums is back online, you can check a thread of the same name in the iaido section, a member of KW who was a student of his posted a comment, it seems that this sensei's "fall to the dark side" started earlier than this trademark episode.

glad2bhere
27th December 2006, 13:28
All this to say that Koryu are really bound for exctinction anytime soon. Greatly due to the fact that Koryu were made to be handled in the Japanese fashion nand not in the fashion that we see them handled as pseudo business but at the same time claim that they use real koryu structure. I am not saying that all dojo outside of Japan are like this but when you try to expand too much with books seminars videos etc... and especially try to make a living out of it this is when things get ugly usually and you loose all the aspects of the Koryu structure. Sure the waza might be kept but there is no arguing that when a Koryu is handled as a mean of income here in North-America or Europe then all that it becomes is not really koryu anymore no matter how you want to argue about it.

I think your point is HUGE. And I would not limit it just to Japanese traditions but include both Chinese and Korean practices as well. Just as the Japanese Ryu-Ha system is often misunderstood and abused in Western culture I have too often seen the Chinese "kwoon" and Korean "kwan" likewise misused as well.

These institutions proceeded from specific cultures and accomplished their goals because of certain practices and expectations steming rom the societies that framed them. However, here in the West its not at all unusual to see a kwon or kwan-- or ryu, for that matter--- defined as "school" or "style". But, like the poet said, "against stupidity, the gods themselves labor in vain." Whatchagonnado?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

roninseb
28th December 2006, 15:32
I think your point is HUGE. And I would not limit it just to Japanese traditions but include both Chinese and Korean practices as well. Just as the Japanese Ryu-Ha system is often misunderstood and abused in Western culture I have too often seen the Chinese "kwoon" and Korean "kwan" likewise misused as well.

These institutions proceeded from specific cultures and accomplished their goals because of certain practices and expectations steming rom the societies that framed them. However, here in the West its not at all unusual to see a kwon or kwan-- or ryu, for that matter--- defined as "school" or "style". But, like the poet said, "against stupidity, the gods themselves labor in vain." Whatchagonnado?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Well all I can say is that we dont need to argue much or try to find examples about the situation since there is so many showing what is already happening. The problem now with Koryu is that many of them when brought abroad are somehow spread using the Karate/Judo/TaeKwondo pattern what is problematic with this is that Koryu where never made to be presented this way and even more not made to be sold. I remember my teacher saying that the most dnagerous thing that can happen to a Koryu is when you try to make a living out of it. When you do this you are bound at one point and time to think about your business that brings bread on the table and not the larger picture of preserving the tradition etc etc and voila! here we have the situation we are having now. Everything is bound for extinction and all thos schools selling videos,ranks and cutting tournaments are only giving the last blow to koryu. This is happening in Japan as well not only outside. So the only thing we have to accept is that depending on how you see it Koryu is either changing or dying.

Anyway here is a little poem from a Chinese monk that I like very much.

The voice of success and profit
May stir the vault of heaven,
but not this place.

In the rounds of the day,
You wear threadbare clothing
and eat simple fare.

When the mountain snow deepens,
Your thoughts
Are far from those of men.

Occasionally,
Immortals pass your door
and Knock.

glad2bhere
28th December 2006, 16:08
Most certainly your view is both timely and accurate. That leaves us with the concern for what will happen to the traditions entrusted to us.

Already on many discussions about rank and how fast it is earned, or standing and how authentic it is or agencies and how profitable they are. Begin to ask detailed or penetrating questions as to the nature and preservation of a particular art and the conversations repeatedly dry-up.

What this tells me is that the American Ethic of "if I can't eat it, spend it or F*** it-- what good is it?" has taken firm hold of these traditions. Quite recently I had the good fortune to connect with a person who is the current conservator for a CHOI Yong Sul Hapkido tradition and he was very keen to have the tradition come to the States. I told him point-blank that I could not be responsible for the resulting prostitution of his cultural treasure once it came here to the States. In my own teaching I regularly have students who come and go when they find out the emphasis in a traditional kwan is not a matter of negotiating a series of ranks, like so many hurdles on a track, and come out the other end to open a school of their own.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. All I have to offer is tradition and hard work. Compared to the immediate gratification and sensorial preoccupation of this culture I am at a distinct disadvantage. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kim Taylor
28th December 2006, 21:23
The answer, Bruce, is what it's always been. To simply practice and not worry about what you offer your students. They will stay or they will go as suits them, but you can't hand it to them on a plate any more than you can hand on your values to your kids by giving them whatever they want whenever they want.

The martial traditions aren't entrusted to us any more than our culture is entrusted to us. Our teachers taught us and gave us permission to teach, and that's the extent of it. We either follow their way, find a new way, or go some other way but no matter what we do, in the long run what matters most is that we're good people. Perhaps some of our students will see that and learn how to be good themselves but that's hardly our main concern.

Beyond that...

Worrying and watching and playing Koryu Kops may be fun but it really is no substitute for simply practicing. One can't legislate skill, talent, integrity or kindness. One can only embody and demonstrate it oneself.

One can "teach" how to beat people up, one can only "show" how not to. One can worry about "keeping the line pure" and "revealing fakes and frauds" or one can simply practice. I highly recommend the latter, it saves a lot of time, does your own students a lot more good in the long run, and does no real harm. The "fakes and frauds" of the martial arts world are no more dangerous than any other school of physical skill out there, like dance schools, yoga classes, or what have you. Anyone damaging or abusing kids will be sorted out long before we need to worry about it.

It's only hubris that leads us to think we need to (or can) protect something that cannot be protected, and does not need protection. No one of us here can "save" a martial art from extinction. If we're not the "last of the line" we're not in charge of that, and if one of us is the "last of the line" it's not likely to survive us the way it was handed down to us (otherwise we wouldn't BE the last of the line), and if we change it (to get more students) it isn't what was handed down to us is it?

And if we "invented" the line... well that speaks to hubris itself.

So, to repeat myself yet again, we simply practice. Students find us or they don't, they practice or they don't. Our line continues or it doesn't.

Kim.

DDATFUS
28th December 2006, 21:34
The "fakes and frauds" of the martial arts world are no more dangerous than any other school of physical skill out there, like dance schools, yoga classes, or what have you. Anyone damaging or abusing kids will be sorted out long before we need to worry about it.


I wish, I really wish, that I could agree with you. Sadly, I've seen some "martial cults" before where the students were being abused psychologically, perhaps physically, by fraudulent instructors (Wayne Muromoto wrote a great article on the subject that can be found at his website). Some of these instructors are still out there teaching (even those with prison records). Some men are adept at preying on young, insecure people who need a place to belong, who feel like outsiders and want to be told that they are inheritors of an elite and secret warrior tradition. These young people fall easy prey to charlatans who spout pseudo-Oriental mystic nonsense and insist on being addressed as "master." Some of these groups might be harmless. Others aren't-- and there are arrest records to prove it.

Cases like this are the extreme example, I know-- most of the nuts we criticize on this site are only fooling themselves. But in those rare exceptions where they are doing something more destructive, I'm glad e-budo is around to expose them-- there are people who have gotten out of the lies because of what they read here.

Sorry for the rant-- it's just a subject that weighs on me a bit.

Best,

Kim Taylor
29th December 2006, 02:20
Hmm, coincidentally I'm copying over my vhs tapes to dvd at this moment, and I'm looking at one of the major cult figures ever to be around the west, a fellow who, as far as I know knew next to nothing, set himself up as a major inheritor of the koryu, and had some of the big guns looking to break his neck at one point... this was quite a few years ago when it was thought that a more direct approach than internet forums was appropriate.

Thing is, aside from some students who may have felt cheated and or embarassed, I don't see any particular harm from his era. In fact I've met some of his students over the years and they are extremely polite, well mannered, and do what they do with great enthusiasm and precision.

I see no lasting problem with his teachings, and I haven't heard anything from him in years so I suspect he and his group will simply disappear as time goes on. I've watched a lot of frauds disappear.

When I was younger, during the ninja craze, we also had our local grandmaster show up and I was actually in the club for a while... helped him start up in fact, since his first adventures as a grandmaster were in an informal bunch of us head-bangers who did several different martial arts and met a couple times a week to beat the hell out of each other and do situps until we threw up. (That particular bunch of frauds even developed their own single and double baton exercises for some reason). It was fairly obvious from day one that he was not legit, but it was all exercise and nobody died while I was involved at least.

On the other hand, the decidedly legitimate Do Pi Kung Fu group that was around at the same time did have the occasional dislocated hip from the way they stretched. The group was booted out of the full/semi contact circuit in the area because they kept knocking people out in tournaments.

As for necessary warnings, I don't see too many threads around that are telling of clubs where the women are regularly preyed upon by senior students, where instructors have put cameras in the women's changerooms, where... oh you know what I mean, and these are all things that I've run across personally, not rumours. They are also all things that happen in legitimate dojos as much as in the "fakes".

But I also know that these things happen in yoga clubs, in volleyball leagues, in schools and in homes. I have taught women's self defence for 20 years so I've heard it all.

All of that is best taken care of by the police, not by internet chat forums, but by all means, let's discuss those folks here. Oh wait, lawyers. I don't see the value of discussing legitimate lineage but I'm afraid that's what we're left with.

OY this guy is pathetic, his students don't even fall down nicely for the camera, you want to believe this stuff and study with him, go ahead. It's not going to hurt you, and you'll learn something perhaps... if only to ask questions next time.

Fakes and frauds? They're everywhere, you can find the same threads on the modeling forums as you find here, all about fake modeling agencies. Those go from harmless twits who simply can't get models jobs but like to pretent so they can be around purty gurls, through small town agencies that make their money selling modeling lessons to scam artists that hook up with photographers to charge hundreds of girls thousands of dollars to develop a portfolio and then skip town to set up under a new name.

Given a choice between a couple hundred dollars in fees and some exercise and thousands of dollars and a major loss of self esteem just when you can't afford it as a young girl, I'd say the martial arts fraud is an easier lesson.

Sure it's all sleazy and distasteful, but it's also self-correcting. The students themselves will alert everyone else and parents will involve the police when necessary. I don't have to go looking for it, I find enough just being around.

You asked how best to serve your traditions. I suggest that for me, it's by practicing but I won't ignore that and advise anyone else to do the same.

Kim.

glad2bhere
29th December 2006, 02:39
Thanks, Kim:

The Buddhist in me knows that you are right and that it is attachment that drives my pain. Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

DDATFUS
29th December 2006, 02:58
Kim,

thanks for the post; I find your viewpoint very compelling. On the whole, you're certainly right-- the time we invest in fraud busting has very little in the way of returns (except comic relief for us). On the other hand, there are at least a couple of very self-destructive groups that we've run across-- the ones who set the standard for "Bad" budo-- and I've heard of a couple of people getting out, even getting professional help after reading e-budo and realizing what was going on.

I'd be kidding myself if I thought that every 10th-dan Perfesser Ultra Soke that we derided here was a deadly menace that we are helping to control. If we ignore most of them and let them burn themselves out, I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. I'm sure some of them are actually doing us a service-- giving all those kids who want to learn to fire ki balls or perform death-touches a place to call home so that they don't try to show up at our dojo.

Still, just the fact that I've seen one or two groups that really were problems convinces me that it's a good thing that legitimate martial artists occasionally look into this sort of thing. I feel like the average person thinks of martial arts as stuff for kids to do after school, and doesn't really comprehend just how dangerous martial arts abuse could potentially be.

Kim Taylor
29th December 2006, 03:36
;-)

Kim.





Thanks, Kim:

The Buddhist in me knows that you are right and that it is attachment that drives my pain. Your thoughts are much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kim Taylor
29th December 2006, 03:41
I won't pretend that I haven't given my opinion on occasion, but largely I have always believed that positive example works well, and I think I said so somewhere in the dinosaur times of early iaido-L posts.

Best wishes... and I didn't realize I was talking to two Simses! I plead age of course.

Kim.




Kim,

Still, just the fact that I've seen one or two groups that really were problems convinces me that it's a good thing that legitimate martial artists occasionally look into this sort of thing. I feel like the average person thinks of martial arts as stuff for kids to do after school, and doesn't really comprehend just how dangerous martial arts abuse could potentially be.

DDATFUS
29th December 2006, 03:47
Yep, there are at least two of us on the board, though no relation (to the best of my knowledge).

I guess my real problem, Kim, is that your approach is too darn mature. I mean, seriously, if someone rubs me the wrong way I outta be able to chew them out online to achieve the results I want, right? Keep my mouth shut? Set a good example? Take the long view? Sheesh. If I could do any of those things, do you think that I'd be online? ;)

A.J. Bryant
29th December 2006, 14:42
There's probably a very good reason why you never see many high ranking martial artists online.

Personally, while pretty junior myself, I feel like I went through a "stage" in my training sometime back in the mid 1990's where I detested frauds and fakes... “How dare they soil our precious koryu”... A decade later and this stuff just doesn't bother me that much anymore. It’s been going on forever and there’re just as many frauds and fakes in Japan... <shrug>

FWIW

cxt
29th December 2006, 15:47
With all due respect to those quite senior to me in terms of years in and skills.

I'm still of the view that "fakes and frauds" should be treated as such.

Ya got to draw the line somewhere.

"Bad money drives out good" does NOT just apply to economics, and it functions in more than one way/area.

Not saying that we should all be roaming the net with a touch carrying mob from a B monster movie.

But IMO we probably should not be turning a blind eye to "fakes and frauds" either.

We are all concerned with what goes on in our own backyards--the further removed from what concerns us personally--the harder it is to care.
Simple fact of life.

But I don't see how ignoreing the scam-a-rei and faux-fu fakers does anyone any good.

Tolerence of bad acts encourges MORE bad acts.

Carl Long
29th December 2006, 16:40
I have enjoyed the multitude of diverse comments throughout this thread as much as the next guy. But I think it has strayed significantly from it's point of origin. I'd like to suggest perhaps another thread be started to address web related Budo policing? Although I'm sure some folks would prefer to keep posting here... ;)

glad2bhere
29th December 2006, 17:03
Per Kim Taylor's comments earlier, I must share that I have witnessed more behaviors borne of the dynamics he mentioned in his post than anything else.

I own that I am protective of the arts which I practice just as I treasure this or that heirloom passed to me by previous generations. However, Kim makes a very good point that there are clear limits to what influences we have regarding not just what happens when we die but even during our own life-time. Where true power and control lay is in my decision to practice what I have been taught and allow it to bring me out of the best part of myself. If there are others who choose to share my path for a while, more's the merrier, yes? But in the final analysis I believe we walk our paths in solitude and it is the journey not the path which is the art. ( Again, thanks for your guidance, Kim.)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
29th December 2006, 17:18
There's probably a very good reason why you never see many high ranking martial artists online.

Personally, while pretty junior myself, I feel like I went through a "stage" in my training sometime back in the mid 1990's where I detested frauds and fakes... “How dare they soil our precious koryu”... A decade later and this stuff just doesn't bother me that much anymore. It’s been going on forever and there’re just as many frauds and fakes in Japan... <shrug>

FWIW

Your comment resonated very strongly with me as I have spent not a few years hoping to build concensus regarding various issues facing the Hapkido community. Quite recently it has been made abundantly clear that the chaotic and contencious nature of the Hapkido community does not occur or has not been maintained by some accident of nature. The angry bickering, poking, criticism, disenfranchisement and so forth are the way that the majority of Hapkido personages want things to remain, all comments to the contrary.

I continue to teach and practice the Hapkido arts but have increasingly less to do with most of the activities associated with other groups. Its not just that the various events and activities continue to move in circles, but that folks want them to remain that way and take umbrage if anyone suggests otherwise.

Life is too short.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

A.J. Bryant
29th December 2006, 18:57
I'm not saying turn a blind eye and definitely not saying to ignore anything abusive or criminal. But the vast majority of fakes and frauds out there are just ego driven narcissists and frankly, not worth the energy expended to "police" them. As Bruce said, "life's too short". Acknowledge them, have a good laugh and move on...

Speaking of which, I agree with Mr. Long, let's get this ship back on track!

cxt
29th December 2006, 20:28
AJ/Kim Taylor etc.

Did not not mean to suggest or imply that ANYONE felt that people should turn a blind eye.

Pretty clear that pretty much everyone aound here steps up when needed.

Just to be clear. :)

glad2bhere
29th December 2006, 22:52
There is another piece that relates to both the original theme and the secondary one that has come up and I raise this point with no desire whatsoever to point fingers or cast aspersions. Its just that the original practice mentioned was MJER.

Within the last ten years the Hapkido community has witnessed the introduction of MJER through the JUNG KI KWAN and GM LIM Hyun Soo. An authentic MJER of standing in that tradition, GM Lim has taken that material and inter-related it to Korean Kumdo (J. Kendo) to produce a tradition of his own constuction. Now, my point is not that GM LIM has done anything particularly new in borrowing traditions from another culture. The reason I raise this point is that I am not exactly sure how this works from a Japanese POV. Perhaps someone can help me with this.

a.) My understanding is that if a person has standing in a Japanese ryu they are expected to teach that curriculum and that it is expected to be represented as the original ryu if that person intends to use his standing in that ryu to authenticate what he does.

b.) A person can, with the appointment of his seniors, open a branch (J. "ha") to the ryu. Once again,it is expected that the material presented by this "ha" be represented as the original ryu if that person intends to use his standing in that ryu to authenticate what he does.

c.) A person who opens his own discipline, constucts his own art, corrupts the original teachings of the ryu or misrepresents the ryu in some fashion can expect to be dropped from the ryu and will lose his standing in the ryu. This means he is still free to do what he decides, but must do it without the validating authority of the ryu.

Can anyone speak with authority on this? Last time I raise such issues (on SFI) it started s***-storm. If that starts to happen here I will withdraw the questions. In the meantime I am trying very hard to understand how such Japanese institutions could provide for what has developed. Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Carl Long
30th December 2006, 19:07
Hello All,

We have been in contact with Sekiguchi Sensei directly as well as his USA representative Montgomery Sensei and are confident that this issue will be resolved shortly. In dealing with both of these fine gentleman, I am confident that martial virtues and honor are still alive and well within the traditional koryu. Sekiguchi Sensei's vision and Shimabuluro Sensei's vision for Japanese Koryu are very much the same. I am confident that this unfortunate situation will prove to be a learning experience that we can all draw upon in the future.

There will always be the few greedy or jealous individuals that will somehow infect the traditional martial arts community. We hear from them often here on these forums as well. But as long as they need, desire or want something from the people with integrity and honor, they will have to acquiesce to their wishes in the end. Unfortunately, not all of these folks see the value of maintaining an honorable relationship with their teachers or seniors. It is in these cases that such intolerable acts as this one become possible to begin with. Some have found other teachers that do not require them to belong to honorable koryu institutions and are no more that modern day ronin. These "ronin" were uncontrollable throughout history and as we all know, history has a tendency to repeat itself. Mr. Sims, I believe this last thought may address some of the questions you posed in your last post as well.

I wish you all a very Happy New Year.

glad2bhere
31st December 2006, 01:30
I wouldn't mind pursuing this, but my intuition tells me that it will create more problems than it solves. The researcher in me is ever working to understand the forces behind how we come to do what we do and why. However, I sense that, once again, to pursue this line of questioning in a public forum is only going to produce more problems than it solves.

Not to step away in complete ignorance, I still have a couple of rather fine essays on the nature of the Ryu-Ha system and will make due with those until such time as anyone might contact me with additional insights.

Many thanks to all who have shared their thoughts and Best Wishes for the New Year.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kim Taylor
31st December 2006, 03:58
I had a big long post for you Bruce but hit the wrong button and then decided not to get into the inevitable as you say.

On the "ha" system. I suppose it made sense for an instructor to let a student open X-ha when travel between prefectures was restricted and schools were not allowed to have branches but it makes no sense today. Why would an instructor not simply say "call it X" if a student wants to open a dojo. There's no problem with having branches anywhere and lots of koryu have had international "empires" for years.

Often it's assumed that a "ha" is different than the original (rather than just being a name change for political/legal reasons which is the only reason I can think of for a student to ask about using the name). If a student is different enough from the instructor to rate a name change, he's a poor student and shouldn't be teaching, or he's deliberately changeing it in which case he's either left or been booted.

In either of those cases he's more likely to call it some other name since Z-ha is rather subservient. Maybe call it X-batto-jutsu-iai or some such instead of x-do.

On your Korean fellow, the answer is also pretty simple I suspect. There is no licensing body to appeal to, and MJER is far from being a single entity, I've practiced with at least 3 self or student-proclaimed soke, none of which have the papers, but it goes to show that MJER is not A (single) koryu, it's a bunch of lines, some of which make a big deal about lineage and have a soke, some of which do not.

So the only person/organization that would actually have something to say about mixing MJER with Korean sword in Korea would/might be the fellow's instructor or dojo. And even then it's not all that definite that anything would be said. If he does straight MJER in his dojo in Japan who cares what he does in another country in his own dojang.

This might change if students or other instructors brought stories and complaints back home of course. Then sensei might have to do something, whether or not he wanted to. And that does happen, often students will jibber-jabber and this will force sensei to take some sort of action. This is something that sensei usually does not thank the student for. A good rule to keep in mind is that dirty laundry should stay indoors, and certain family realities should stay with mom and pop until the kids are old enough to be told about them.

Your questions also seem to begin from the presumption that the koryu system is well-defined and monolithic but it's not. The two koryu arts that I do under the ZNKR are simply not interested in papers and sokes and whatnot, they're too big within the IKF (multiple lines) and they're very clear and easy to sort out in the individual lines (I know my grandpa and his father before him). Being multiple lines in the same organization means not yammering on about who's legit and who's not (the question is simple "who's your people" or "who's your granddad", from that you know all you need to know). It also means not overstepping bounds and being respectful of other teacher's students. You practice seitei and if you teach koryu, you do it in the context of "your line does this, and mine does this". And believe me, at the top levels the instructors can all do each other's "styles".

The third koryu line I do is "old school" to the extreme. One dojo, one soke, maybe 20 people actually "in" the school and a bunch of folks around the periphery allowed to practice but certainly not "in" the school. There will not be any "ha" in that art any time soon, at least not sanctioned.

Dunno if that helps or not. Email me (I'm easy enough to find on google) if you want to talk specifics.

Kim.



I wouldn't mind pursuing this, but my intuition tells me that it will create more problems than it solves. The researcher in me is ever working to understand the forces behind how we come to do what we do and why. However, I sense that, once again, to pursue this line of questioning in a public forum is only going to produce more problems than it solves.

Not to step away in complete ignorance, I still have a couple of rather fine essays on the nature of the Ryu-Ha system and will make due with those until such time as anyone might contact me with additional insights.

Many thanks to all who have shared their thoughts and Best Wishes for the New Year.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

roninseb
31st December 2006, 13:44
To my eyes the culprits are the teachers themselves.

They seem to have given to many ranks too fast and wanted to expand and share Koryu with the rest of the world. This is indeed a very good idea and there is nothing wrong with this. What is wrong is when we get individuals that make a business out of it. This will lead to actions like the stuff that was brought to the forum by Mr. Long.

Making a living out of Koryu teaching in itself is not so problematic. What is problematic is when owning a name makes you more legit/respectable than other. When this is the case you will have guys like our buddy in Argentina trying to register names and use them later on to make $$ like in this situation. This is why in my opinion Koryu and business should not be mixed since the mixture of both seems to have brought more harm than benefits on the long run. I guess we can call this evolution or extinction it all depends on how you see it.

So in the end although I feel bad about what is happening with this Argentina issue. I have to say that those are casualties of doing business. Any type of business involving ownership or some form of power over a name is bound to have issue like this one day or another. I do feel that even if he really owns the name in Argentina this issue will not be going very far anyway legally wise since many facts prove how far fetched his claim to the name is.

glad2bhere
31st December 2006, 16:18
I had a big long post for you Bruce but hit the wrong button and then decided not to get into the inevitable as you say.

On the "ha" system. I suppose it made sense for an instructor to let a student open X-ha when travel between prefectures was restricted and schools were not allowed to have branches but it makes no sense today. Why would an instructor not simply say "call it X" if a student wants to open a dojo. There's no problem with having branches anywhere and lots of koryu have had international "empires" for years.

Often it's assumed that a "ha" is different than the original (rather than just being a name change for political/legal reasons which is the only reason I can think of for a student to ask about using the name). If a student is different enough from the instructor to rate a name change, he's a poor student and shouldn't be teaching, or he's deliberately changeing it in which case he's either left or been booted.

In either of those cases he's more likely to call it some other name since Z-ha is rather subservient. Maybe call it X-batto-jutsu-iai or some such instead of x-do.

On your Korean fellow, the answer is also pretty simple I suspect. There is no licensing body to appeal to, and MJER is far from being a single entity, I've practiced with at least 3 self or student-proclaimed soke, none of which have the papers, but it goes to show that MJER is not A (single) koryu, it's a bunch of lines, some of which make a big deal about lineage and have a soke, some of which do not.

So the only person/organization that would actually have something to say about mixing MJER with Korean sword in Korea would/might be the fellow's instructor or dojo. And even then it's not all that definite that anything would be said. If he does straight MJER in his dojo in Japan who cares what he does in another country in his own dojang.

This might change if students or other instructors brought stories and complaints back home of course. Then sensei might have to do something, whether or not he wanted to. And that does happen, often students will jibber-jabber and this will force sensei to take some sort of action. This is something that sensei usually does not thank the student for. A good rule to keep in mind is that dirty laundry should stay indoors, and certain family realities should stay with mom and pop until the kids are old enough to be told about them.

Your questions also seem to begin from the presumption that the koryu system is well-defined and monolithic but it's not. The two koryu arts that I do under the ZNKR are simply not interested in papers and sokes and whatnot, they're too big within the IKF (multiple lines) and they're very clear and easy to sort out in the individual lines (I know my grandpa and his father before him). Being multiple lines in the same organization means not yammering on about who's legit and who's not (the question is simple "who's your people" or "who's your granddad", from that you know all you need to know). It also means not overstepping bounds and being respectful of other teacher's students. You practice seitei and if you teach koryu, you do it in the context of "your line does this, and mine does this". And believe me, at the top levels the instructors can all do each other's "styles".

The third koryu line I do is "old school" to the extreme. One dojo, one soke, maybe 20 people actually "in" the school and a bunch of folks around the periphery allowed to practice but certainly not "in" the school. There will not be any "ha" in that art any time soon, at least not sanctioned.

Dunno if that helps or not. Email me (I'm easy enough to find on google) if you want to talk specifics.

Kim.

Thanks very much, Kim. Right off the bat you have corrected three major misconceptions that I had about these Japanese institutions.

First off, you were correct in assuming that I viewed the Ryu-Ha system as being singularly "monolithic". Like the last example you gave of your own experience I understood that all Ryu has a single head, a group of close-knit followers and, perhaps a wider circle of "hangers' on".

Secondly, while I was aware that their were different high-ranking practitioners I had assumed that all MJER was essentially under some single umbrella.

Lastly, I had concluded that GM Lim's efforts had been accomplished with less-than-complete disclosure to the person who granted his rank, one KOMEI Sekiguchi Sensei; 21st Headmaster of the MJER.

Thanks for providing some insight into what manner all Japanese traditions may, or may not be, "created equal", as it were. I think we can also chalk this up to another example of what happens to me when I "assume", yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kim Taylor
31st December 2006, 21:04
Lastly, I had concluded that GM Lim's efforts had been accomplished with less-than-complete disclosure to the person who granted his rank, one KOMEI Sekiguchi Sensei; 21st Headmaster of the MJER.
Bruce

Well GM Lim may or may not have told his sensei about his experiments and changes, and if he did not, his sensei may or may not know about them anyway. But if he said nothing, and nobody else brings the subject up, than sensei can simply ignore the whole thing, which happens far more often than people suspect.

That's what I meant about students bringing things to official attention that should likely be left alone. Letters and whatnot often demand a response that does nothing but create problems where none existed before, and this often makes the powers that be less than happy. Honestly, I'm constantly mystified at how stupid students think their instructors are. Of course they know what's going on, and they may have reasons for not doing something that go far beyond what the students know... perhaps even stretching back to before the students were born. My advice for my own students in situations like this is always "don't help us unless we ask you to help, and even then, ask us again when we're sober".



Secondly, while I was aware that their were different high-ranking practitioners I had assumed that all MJER was essentially under some single umbrella.

Not even close. For instance, Sekiguchi Komei and his group have no more connection to my lines than I do to Muso Shinden ryu. My particular lineage goes through two lines, the first (and earliest) is the Shum Phu Kai in Osaka which came from the Yae Gaki Kai which was the first MJER dojo outside of Kochi. The second is through Yamamoto Harusuke who was a student of Oe Masamichi.

Sekiguchi apparently goes through two generations to Yamanouchi Toyotake and then to Oe. So my Yamamoto line is one shorter and I win! ;-) Neither of those two lines goes through Kono Hyakuren who carried the papers from Oe. (My Osaka line does, but I'm not under the late/current "soke with the papers" although I have practiced with several sensei who were/are).

From that simple example you can see just how far back the art flew apart as far as lineage is concerned (pretty much the generation right after Oe). In fact the art was not all that consolid before Oe either, he was the "choke point" through which it contracted as the arts in general were ignored in the Meiji, and expanded again afterward.

Same as in Jodo where it all pretty much came down to Shiriashi Hanjiro and then back out again to the several lines we see today.

Kim.

Kim Taylor
31st December 2006, 21:32
Not to fret Seb, nobody will ever make a living out of the koryu, there just isn't enough interest.

As to hasty promotions, they're what used to be called "goodbye grades" where you'd hand someone heading back overseas a grade high enough to teach with. Sometimes the fellow leaving would state what rank he needed and that's what he'd be given. Hey, as long as he's not in town nobody can give you grief about his rank right? And if he needs it to teach overseas, what's the harm? Seriously. Of course in these days of the WWW "in town" can be half way around the world so I suspect these sorts of grades will get more rare.

That's opposed to the "airport promotion" which is self-administered, you get on the plane as a shodan and get off as a 4dan or some such. ;-)

Oh, oh, and the "thanks for deserting/joining" grade where you get an extra rank when you join a different organization. (In this case there's also the opposite situation where the offer to join includes a reduction or even elimination of rank but that one is sometimes declined).

Perhaps most interesting in the koryu is the "thank's for practicing" letter which, after a visit to another country you give to your host with the sincere wish that they keep practicing what they learned in the 3days/week/3hour seminar. This can even state that you are now the representative of the sensei and have the right to teach the art. Of course those sometimes get blown out of proportion into some sort of "ownership" status. Alternatively they also get blown up into "fraud" status.

Best solution of course is to simply say to any foreign student "go ahead and practice". That way you can later deny ever knowing the putz, or claim full credit for his amazing skills, students and organization. I've advised that method to more than one "lineage head", and keep my own collection of paper in a dresser drawer.

If you don't put it on paper the lawyers (real, jailhouse and/or internet) can't get hold of it. A beer, a handshake and basic honesty is magical that way.

Kim.


[QUOTE=roninseb]To my eyes the culprits are the teachers themselves.

They seem to have given to many ranks too fast and wanted to expand and share Koryu with the rest of the world. This is indeed a very good idea and there is nothing wrong with this. What is wrong is when we get individuals that make a business out of it. QUOTE]

roninseb
1st January 2007, 00:12
Well well Kim.

I have to give it to you. Your last post really shows how so many people who teache and who are head or chiefs etc... in Budo in general are graded and what happens when they go abroad and blow their papers out of proportion. This I would say this is also a problem many Koryu are facing. So this goes on to say that for example a 8th dan X and 8 dan X in any given organization might be 2 different birds. One who really worked his !!! of to get it and the other given as a political gift. We should always be mindfull of that.

Kim Taylor
1st January 2007, 01:51
Grades between organizations have never been equivalent Seb, some may have a year between ranks, and some several so if you're looking at "time in" you're not looking at the same thing at all. Skill levels aside.

I've said before there are actually only two ranks in any organization... when you can teach and when you can give rank (maybe a third rank for giving permission to teach I suppose, but if you only have two ranks, the second implies the third). All the rest of it is simply gold stars on our charts to keep us interested and in most cases, money to run the organization.

Now as to rank within an organization, you will find that it varies according to what type of an organization. The smaller and more centralized it is, the more likely (possible) it is to have wildly varying rank according to skill level. If there's one dojo and one sensei and he has no set grading criteria or he grades according to an esoteric set of standards or according to how much money you drop in the pot on the alter than you'll have an interesting distribution of skill to rank ratios.

On the other hand in large organizations with lots of rules like, for instance, the ZNKR or (likely) the ZNIR you'll find that rank actually does equate fairly well with both time in and skill level. You don't challenge until you've got the time in, and you don't pass a panel of several sensei from different dojo until you meet a pretty standardized and strict set of criteria. And for the ZNKR that rank is recognized in every country that is in the IKF so you'd better not be handing out any sort of "gift grades" for folks heading to or on other shores. If you do it will likely come back to bite you on the rear end. (It has in fact done just that in the past. The ZNKR takes a very dim view of empire building.)

In the genuine "old school" koryu, as you know, rank can be given, taken away, adjusted, and whatever else at the whim of the lineage head. Folks are accepted, booted, re-admitted and anything else at the same whims. If you don't like it, hit the road, that's the way it is. Life is as fair as the headmaster is, and no more or less so.

But all of that is irrelevent. You can teach or not, and you can give rank or not. Beyond that all is vanity or donations to the organization or good practice at overcoming nerves.

I have a lot of years in practice without rank in all three of the arts I practice, and in one I still hold no rank or recognition whatsoever after... what... 15 years practice maybe? The advice Ohmi sensei gave me sometime around 1990 still applies. If someone asks you what your rank is, get on the floor and show them what rank you are. NONE of the rest of it counts.

Hmm, just converting a tape of a class that one of the MJER soke taught in Guelph in '95. What a bunch of stupid questions I asked! Mouthy idiot, I'm surprised he didn't throw me out into the hallway.

Anyway, my point was that grades are the same class of thing as "legitmate" or not. They have no external reference for beginners or for anyone in a different organization. The only way a beginner or a massively talented senior budoka can tell how good a sensei is, is to go take a look.

Beginners aren't going to learn who's a good instructor, a good person, by reading this forum any more than they're going to learn the martial arts from a book. (Oooh I love it when I can tie all my rants together). You have to go look at the class, check out the instructor and even more importantly, check out the students. An instructor will reveal his personality by the students he attracts.

And if the instructor says you gotta pay for a year worth of lessons before you look, or you gotta sign the blood oath or you gotta sit in the rain outside the temple gate......

Well there's probably a good judo club in town.

Kim.


Well well Kim.

I have to give it to you. Your last post really shows how so many people who teache and who are head or chiefs etc... in Budo in general are graded and what happens when they go abroad and blow their papers out of proportion. This I would say this is also a problem many Koryu are facing. So this goes on to say that for example a 8th dan X and 8 dan X in any given organization might be 2 different birds. One who really worked his !!! of to get it and the other given as a political gift. We should always be mindfull of that.

Carl Long
1st January 2007, 04:26
Happy New Year Guys!! We're here in the dojo wishing all of our Sword swinging friends all the best of health, happiness and prosperity in 2007. Especially all of you who have been so gracious throughout 2006. ;) Love you guys!!!

Carl Long
15th February 2007, 17:42
It is with deep regret that I now inform you that on Feb. 13, 2007, Oscar Cirone was deemed the "OWNER" of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu, MJER and any variant of the name in Argentina. The final judgment included other terms as well. According to the judgement terms, the particulars are not to be disclosed to the public. Suffice it to say, Cirone is a VERY happy man.

According to Sekiguchi Sensei's representative, Cirone has disregarded his wishes to drop the lawsuit. Whether or not that is true will obviously be determined by what action Mr. Sekiguchi and members of his Komei Juku organization now takes against his "Argentina National Represntative." We shall see by the actions taken by Mr Sekiguchi as to whether his organization takes these matters seriously.

I will allow each of you to draw your own conclusions...

Regards,

CL

Chidokan
15th February 2007, 17:57
That is just plain insane. What's next, does he now apply his 'brandname' outside of Argentina as per Coca Cola et al and we all lose out??? Surely someone else was teaching MJER there before this idiot turned up...can they appeal on the grounds of previous usage or something???

I have an idea... Why don't we do what theatre frequenters do to "that scottish play".... we can all practise "you know... that japanese sword art..." :rolleyes:

Bob Blackburn
15th February 2007, 17:59
Sensei Long,

Thank you for keeping us posted. A sad day for budo.

glad2bhere
15th February 2007, 18:31
OK. Thats it. I call "dibs" on Karate and Judo both.

And if you characters don't watch out I'll make a play for Aikido as well!!

BTW: Did I ever mention that my family has the original deed to the Brooklyn--- er--- never mind.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Carl Long
15th February 2007, 18:44
OK. Thats it. I call "dibs" on Karate and Judo both.

And if you characters don't watch out I'll make a play for Aikido as well!!

BTW: Did I ever mention that my family has the original deed to the Brooklyn--- er--- never mind.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Mr. Sims, I understand your frustration. But wait and see if there aren't a few petty, jealous indidviduals out there that will be happy with the courts decision because they can't get out and teach globally like other successful teachers. We call that an Island mind.

As bad as I feel for the defendant in this case, I feel exponentially worse for the Cirones students. This means that if they put in years, decades of work learning "HIS" style, they will never be able to teach it as an art they can call their own. What a shame.

CL

Charles Mahan
15th February 2007, 18:47
And it's bad for Argentina, because this will tend to discourage foreign instructors from visiting the country.

Aozora
15th February 2007, 18:56
I figures that the Argentine courts would side with the local guy that with a foreign representative.

Any appeals process to this, Carl?

Carl Long
15th February 2007, 18:58
I figures that the Argentine courts would side with the local guy that with a foreign representative.

Any appeals process to this, Carl?

They were both local guys. I doubt the defendant can afford an appeal.

K. Cantwell
15th February 2007, 19:01
This means that if they put in years, decades of work learning "HIS" style, they will never be able to teach it as an art they can call their own. What a shame.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but didn't this guy just get the rights to the name? Or did he somehow protect the techniques as well?

The techniques, though, surely can't be protected, can they? That would be like chessplayer Nigel Short protecting 4.Nf3 in the Caro-Kann and saying you can't play that move anymore. At worst, I couldn't call it the "Short System" anymore, but I can certainly move my knight anywhere I like. People in Argentina should still be able to swing swords how they like; they will simply have to call it something different.

So, what this guy has forced others to do is come up with different terms, but the physical movements can still be taught by others, no? What will probably wind up happening is you'll have all sorts of terms going on down there, but the same techniques being taught. It should certainly burn the caretakers of the system, but you can still work around it.

The next step, I guess, will be the really dangerous one when the actual techniques become intellectual property. To reduce a ryu to its physical movements would be a disgrace, but it is something I could see the courts doing.

Kevin Cantwell

glad2bhere
15th February 2007, 21:04
Mr. Sims, I understand your frustration. But wait and see if there aren't a few petty, jealous indidviduals out there that will be happy with the courts decision because they can't get out and teach globally like other successful teachers. We call that an Island mind.

As bad as I feel for the defendant in this case, I feel exponentially worse for the Cirones students. This means that if they put in years, decades of work learning "HIS" style, they will never be able to teach it as an art they can call their own. What a shame.

CL

Honestly, I had not even considered it from this particular point of view but the implications are, indeed, terrible to consider. Yes, it IS a shame!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kenshi
16th February 2007, 03:35
Honestly, I had not even considered it from this particular point of view but the implications are, indeed, terrible to consider. Yes, it IS a shame!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

You have to read the last post by German and other Cirone students in this thread on kendo World regarding Cirone:

Cirone on Kendo World (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12721&page=5)

Says it all...

K. Shire

kenkyusha
16th February 2007, 04:16
Long Sensei (et alia),

This political imbroglio (if the above quoted forumite is correct) that leaves everyone worse-off. If it is not too nosy to ask, how are foreign instructors going to teach in Argentina now- will you have to change the name?

Be well,
Jigme

Carl Long
16th February 2007, 20:30
Long Sensei (et alia),

This political imbroglio (if the above quoted forumite is correct) that leaves everyone worse-off. If it is not too nosy to ask, how are foreign instructors going to teach in Argentina now- will you have to change the name?

Be well,
Jigme

I would say that you are asking the wrong people. I would suggest you ask this guy...

Oscar Cirone
Tel./Fax: 4672-4674
E-Mail para consultas:
oscarcirone@hotmail.com

a few thousand emails should eventually get an answer...

Tom Karazozis
26th February 2007, 22:32
Mr. Sims, I understand your frustration. But wait and see if there aren't a few petty, jealous indidviduals out there that will be happy with the courts decision because they can't get out and teach globally like other successful teachers. We call that an Island mind.

I know this thread has now died out, but I've been reading trough it and found some confusing statements by some. First, I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher? Is it really someone that travels around teaching globally and looking for students? In my point of view, if you want to learn "honourable" koryu, "YOU" have to travel to the place of where it's taught. It's not the teacher that comes to "you". Second, again, what is a "successful" teacher? in your post Mr. Long it sounds as if it is someone that made enough money with his "budo" and can now travel around looking to make more money. Success in "budo" is not about traveling and teaching around the world and making a business out of it, success in "budo" is attaining your own personal goals in your training(It also usually leads you to other types of shugyo for more understanding of what bushi really did in the past, this cannot be done only by studying Iai, kenjutsu, etc...), and has nothing to do with making money or traveling around the world teaching. You don't see Otake Risuke or any of the other real "honourable" koryu teachers travelling all over the world making huge businesses out of it. Also, Japanese have a big "Island" mind, alot of them think(especially the old generation) they are the only ones in the world. They are "island" people after all! As for jealous individuals. Why would anyone care about whats happening in the Argentina budo world, apart from them? Your statement sounded a little paranoid, don't you think? Out of all the posts I've read here and in Kendo-world concerning this topic, I'd say this was a strategic business move involving Mr. Cirone AND Mr. Sekiguchi to block out any other Eishin ryu coming into argentina, Sekiguchi still gets his piece of the pie, and hey! their all happy, orelse why wouldn't he(Sekiguchi) hamon him? So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?

Tom Karazozis
26th February 2007, 23:36
Oh and if any of my questions sounded harsh, It's because this subject looks more like some kind of business related turf war than anything related to Budo, and it's disgusting.

glad2bhere
27th February 2007, 01:36
Not sure how this will go across on what is essentially a forum for Japanese arts, but that last post hit a nerve from a couple of discussions over on HAPKIDO FORUM.

Fact is that a Martial Art is an activity predicated on some military science with an eye towards shaping the individual's character through the study of that science. What this means to me is that values, ethics and morals are as much "equiptment" in the training of the individual as uniforms, mats or any of the other accoutremont'.

I understand people who are nervous about having to teach such beliefs to students. I understand people who are nervous about having to model such behaviors. Like it or not it comes with the territory and if the strain is too much I suggest a conversion to one of the many American ball-type sports is in order. In my own case, to live according to the Five Tenets of Korean culture is not some archaic belief system, but a very real and living approach to one's community. I suspect that there are more than a few here who view the ethos of their own chosen art the same way.

I therefore define a successful teacher as one who accomplishes his responsibilities without the convenience of compromising the values which are an integral part of the art he teaches. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

kenkyusha
27th February 2007, 08:59
First, I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher?
Having students whose opinions are based on an understanding derived from practice and can demonstrate the principles of the art physically and through conduct as well. I have been lucky enough to know and train (in another art) with one of Long Sensei's students- he is a credit to those around him...

As for you sir, welcome to my Ignore list.

Be well,
Jigme

Brian Owens
27th February 2007, 13:12
...I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher? Is it really someone that travels around teaching globally and looking for students? In my point of view, if you want to learn "honourable" koryu, "YOU" have to travel to the place of where it's taught. It's not the teacher that comes to "you".
I was fortunate to train for several years in an American branch of a Japan-based karate organization. Maybe you have heard of it: Hayashi-ha Shito Ryu. As Hayashi Sensei's organization grew, he frequently traveled the globe teaching his far flung students.

I think Hayashi Teruo would have met anyone's definition of successful. I also think he was an honorable man, teaching an honorable art.

Some years later I had the pleasure of studying in another American branch of a Japan-based organization. Less well known, but there are many within the Budo community in general and the Aikido community in particular who would recognize the name of Kurita Minoru. He, too, came to us -- at some cost to himself in time and money -- so that he could personally guide those who wished to follow his art.

You are now implying that he doesn't teach an honorable art, and that we, his students, are dishonorable.

Having read a number of your posts in the last few weeks, you are not one whose measure of "honorable" matters one whit to me. Rather than posting with any sort of meaningful information or insight, your reasons for posting appear to be nothing more than attempts to stir up trouble and to get attention for yourself.

I, too, am hereby adding you to my ignore list.

DDATFUS
27th February 2007, 14:33
Let's put two quotes next to each other:

I'd say this was a strategic business move involving Mr. Cirone AND Mr. Sekiguchi to block out any other Eishin ryu coming into argentina, Sekiguchi still gets his piece of the pie


this subject looks more like some kind of business related turf war than anything related to Budo, and it's disgusting.

so, a guy complaining about someone trademarking the name of a koryu is just complaining about a business turf war, which is disgusting because it is outside the ideals of budo, but someone copyrighting the name of a koryu style with the goal of preventing other people from teaching MJER in a certain area in order to protect their own profits doesn't bother you?




their all happy, orelse why wouldn't he(Sekiguchi) hamon him?
speculating on the relationship between a sensei and his students is a little risky-- unless I've missed something, we don't know how Sekiguchi feels about this. He might think that it's just dandy, or he might have taken some action privately. Sometimes rather than delivering a formal hamon, instructors just start ignoring you until you take the hint and go away. If Sekiguchi is unhappy with this guy, it's very unlikely that he'll tell us about it-- it's family business, and therefore private.



So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?
For the moment, let's just ignore the rude and provocative nature of this line-- I'll just try to address the logic.
Can we think of other possible reasons that someone might be upset about this? If some other guy who happened to have the last name "Karazozis" somehow managed to trademark the name and claimed that you no longer had the right to use it, would you be a bit miffed? Woudl that make sense to you, or would you feel that you have just as much right to use it as he does?

chrismoses
27th February 2007, 17:24
I, too, am hereby adding you to my ignore list.
Ditto, I don't feel you (or your fellows) follow the rules for forum behavior as laid out in the posting guidelines, or civil discussion. Welcome to my 'special' list.

I don't think many people on this forum would *ever* have questioned Carl's motives as you have.

Brian Stokes
27th February 2007, 17:39
Hi All,

A quick input as to the useage of trademarked names outside of Argentina. At present Argentina is not a signatore of the Madirid accord, an international trademark and copyright treaty that allows for the recognintion of a trademark outside the home country's borders. (Under the Madrid accord once a trademark is recognized in one country there is still a procedure, and of course money to be paid, to establish it in other countires which belong to the treaty organization, but the process is relatively simple and quick.) Unless Mr. Cirone were to file in every country seperately, or file in a country which is part of the Madrid accord and then expand from there there should be no concerns.

That being said I do believe it to be imperative for those of you who belong to any koryu to contact your appropriate Soke to file for a trademark, particularly in those countiries which recognize the first to file as the owner of the trademark.

However I fear for what consequences will occur due to what was just suggested. As Kim pointed out in his postings, there are many who claim ownership of the MJER or MSR. I can now see a battle developing in Japan between various "Soke" over who has the right to use the name and who will file first.

(I don't think this won't work in the US by the way. As far as I understand the law, which is limited at best, common usage of a term prior to an application for a trademark or copyright can act to void the filing.)

Old world, welcome to the modern legalistic overly complicated and highly money driven new world!

Brian F. Stokes
Attorney at Law
Suio Ryu® of Iai Kenpo
(Now you know why I trademarked the Ryuha's name on behalf of Katsuse Soke.)

Suio Ryu® and Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo® are international trademarks of the Suio Ryu®, Japan

glad2bhere
27th February 2007, 20:12
Dear Folks:

Since I am not a participant in these arts under discussion I won't pretend to understand all that is at stake here. However, I would like to draw on two experiences in the Hapkido arts and use this to ask a question.

Two very prominent branches of Hapkido are what were formerly known as HWA RANG Hapkido and KUK SOOL Hapkido. Both of these entities went on to be developed into independent organizations known as the HWARANGDO and the KUKSOOLWON. Both of the organizations have since trademarked their material to prevent its use by others who might attempt to promote particular practices or activities as their own. Further, Dojunim KIM Yun Sang, who presently leads a rather orthodox group of practitioners has likewise trademarked the traditions that he promotes. Note noone has actually trademarked "hapkido" but rather their version of it. However, since the Japanese traditions have a differnt sort of structure, I ask the following.

I am wondering if a sword style such a MJER can still be trademarked by recognized Ryu headquarters so as to preclude branch groups, such as I understand are being discussed here, from pre-emptively trademarking in the Headquarter's stead. If anyone has an understanding of trademark law and its international presence, (and praying that my question is clear) I would interested to know if this might be viable and why it has not been done already? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Tom Karazozis
27th February 2007, 21:17
Let's put two quotes next to each other:

so, a guy complaining about someone trademarking the name of a koryu is just complaining about a business turf war, which is disgusting because it is outside the ideals of budo, but someone copyrighting the name of a koryu style with the goal of preventing other people from teaching MJER in a certain area in order to protect their own profits doesn't bother you?


Hey, I never said that what he(Cirone) was doing was ok, and NO it doesn't bother me because he can do whatever he wants for all I care, It's not my problem! And why should it be yours? It's the argentinian budo community that should handle this, not me or you or anyone else outside of argentina! unless you want to make money off them to?


Ditto, I don't feel you (or your fellows) follow the rules for forum behavior as laid out in the posting guidelines, or civil discussion. Welcome to my 'special' list.

I don't think many people on this forum would *ever* have questioned Carl's motives as you have.

If you are scared to question someones motives than that's also "your" problem. I just smelled something funny and I spoke my mind that's all.

As for "civil" discussion, OH!!! man, I've seen worse stuff on this forum than ME! Laughing at people that don't know better, mocking young people that act "young" etc... I could go on and on, apprentices of "budo" yes indeed. I just went after some someone that posted something that smelled fishy and said what I had to say, but hey! if you want me to be the "bad guy", so be it.

And for the "ignore" and "special" lists well OK, have fun!, uuuhh, I guess.

DDATFUS
28th February 2007, 11:58
And why should it be yours? ... unless you want to make money off them to?


As I pointed out in my previous post, there are reasons to be concerned about this that have nothing to do with money. You never addressed the example I gave: If some other guy with the last name Karazozis trademarked the name and then tried to say that you had no right to use it, how would you react?

It's the principle that bothers me. The soke of Suio Ryu (whose family, if I recall correctly, has taught that art for generations) has given several seminars in the US. This has allowed many Americans to get a rare opportunity of a first-hand look at a koryu. However, if he had students in Argentina and wanted to go there to train with them, and if while there he decided to offer a seminar so that more Argentinians might have an opportunity to learn about Japanese koryu (and let's also say, hypothetically, that this seminar is free to the public), he could be sued for using the name of his own art-- which he owns-- because this guy has trademarked the name "Suio Ryu."

That isn't fair, it isn't just, and it is an abuse of the law. As a law student, I find it highly objectionable that the law is being used to deprive people of their rights. I don't have to want to "make money off them" to object to something like this. All I have to do is imagine how I would feel if some bum around here tried to trademark the name of an art that I study.





It's the argentinian budo community that should handle this, not me or you or anyone else outside of argentina!

I'm not trying to "handle" anything. I'm expressing my opinion on the matter. Given that someone else could try this same trick in the US or another country (though I doubt that he'd be as successful under our intellectual property laws), I don't think that this is a problem limited to Argentina. I also think that any act so disrespectful to the koryu effects all of us.

Kusarigama
28th February 2007, 12:33
The soke of Suio Ryu (whose family, if I recall correctly, has taught that art for generations) has given several seminars in the US.

The Sokeship of Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo is not a hereditary position nor linked to only one family. But it has passed, at times, from father to son through several generations of the same family.

Stating that, it is important to note that the Katsuse family has served as Headmaster for 2 generations, the current Headmaster Katsuse Yoshimitsu Kagehiro and, prior to this, his father, Katsuse Mitsuyasu Kagemasa.

For a complete lineage, please visit: http://suioryu-usa.org/history.html

DDATFUS
28th February 2007, 12:40
Thanks for the clarification, Britt-- I seemed to recall that Katsuse had studied from his father, but I couldn't recall off the top of my head how long that had been going on.

cxt
28th February 2007, 14:17
Tom Karazozas

Your missing the entire point---and missing that big a target strikes me as on purpose IMO. ;)

The "real" problem here has MUCH more to do with the implications if the situation than it does DIRECTLY with the "business" side of things.
NOBODY is hacked because they can't sell to the that area of the world.

What they are, is rightfully concerned and worried is that some smart SOB will be able to jack around with their art.

The situation, and since I have no idea about motives I won't speculate, involves a serious "end-run" around what is often legal ownership of a entity.
Most ryu are actually "owned" in the legal sense by specifc people.

What this person did was find and explote a legal "loophole" in his LOCAL legal system to essentially take legal ownership of something that actually belongs to someone else.

(A questionable action at the very least--even if we don't know motive for certian at this point.)

An action that could easily be repeated elswhere by others.

BTW if your going to assume/assert that the folks in Japan etc, have some kind of "fishy" profit motive.
Then why pray-tell would you not ALSO assume/assert that the local dude might have the same "fishy" motives???? ;)

Rationally that would seem to be a logical question.

If one was honestly being rational.

Carl Long
28th February 2007, 16:05
I have deliberated for two days whether or not this post was worth responding to. I read all of your posts here on e-budo, read your profile, investigated your budo affiliation & non-affiliation and decided that I will address each of your "questions? / accusations?" as best as I can. Not because I feel a need to explain my intentions to the rest of the e-budo community, but because I believe that it is obvious that your age as listed in your profile and posting history here reveal elements of an undeveloped character that perhaps your seniors, parents and friends have neglected to help you develop.



I know this thread has now died out, but I've been reading trough it and found some confusing statements by some. First, I would like to know what is the definition of a "successful" teacher? Is it really someone that travels around teaching globally and looking for students? In my point of view, if you want to learn "honourable" koryu, "YOU" have to travel to the place of where it's taught. It's not the teacher that comes to "you". Second, again, what is a "successful" teacher?


It has been my experience that a successful teacher is one that is able to communicate effectively and pass along to 'willing students' the nature of the techniques, philosophies, necessary skills and traditions of the art or science that he professes to teach. I believe that a successful teacher is one that is recognized as such by his mentors, peers and other accomplished (In this case Budo) members of the world communinty. A successsful teacher is one that can point to many examples of his/her students that exemplify the ability, understanding and nature of the materials presented to them. A successful teacher will most likely be able to show examples of his/her students that also have become effective teachers in their own right. A successful teacher will continue to reach out to those people that are not as priviledged as himself in order to help those who request tuition and guidance. Because he/she knows that someone has done that for him/her. A successful teacher is one that feels an obligation to continue to seek further study and guidance from those that know more, exemplify the traits that he/she is missing and accept such guidance humbly and appreciably.

Your statement above seems to imply that I globe trot around the world uninvited pressuring people to follow me because I ask them. I travel to locations where I have been requested to teach by the people that live there, my teachers, and the Japanese federations that request such things. I have turned down more requests to travel and teach last year than I accepted. I have made a commitment to study my chosen arts by going to my teachers. My teachers (All of them!) have all been more than happy to reciprocate by traveling around the world to teach me and others as well. Other teachers that meet the above listed requirements have been very gracious to do the same. If you have not had this experience, I would suggest you align yourself with teachers that are willing to see you as a valuable enough person that they would be willing to invest the one commodity that they will never get back, their time.



...in your post Mr. Long it sounds as if it is someone that made enough money with his "budo" and can now travel around looking to make more money. Success in "budo" is not about traveling and teaching around the world and making a business out of it, success in "budo" is attaining your own personal goals in your training(It also usually leads you to other types of shugyo for more understanding of what bushi really did in the past, this cannot be done only by studying Iai, kenjutsu, etc...), and has nothing to do with making money or traveling around the world teaching. You don't see Otake Risuke or any of the other real "honourable" koryu teachers travelling all over the world making huge businesses out of it.

Mr. Karazozis, I would like to invite you to my house in Kingston, Pennsylvania to see how I live. You would/should be embarrassed by your accusations. But somehow you have come to the conclusion that those of us that make the commitment to teach others at a huge expense to our families and friends make a considerable income doing so. This too, is an obvious window into your immaturity and lack of life and budo experience. Not to mention, your ignorance of my financial life or what I consider to be "enough money," as you put it. Anyone who would believe that I or anyone else is going to make a living teaching koryu is either dilusional or immature. I choose to believe you are that latter and life will correct that. When I have been asked to travel to what by US standards would be considered an underprivledged country, I have normally stayed at least a week teaching and interacting with the people. I have "NEVER," I repeat "NEVER" requested a fee. I have on occasion accepted an "O Rei" from students that have asked me to accept a token of their appreciation. And usually after having declined it several times. I travel and teach because it is my passion and more importantly, my obligation to do so.

The only part of your statement above that rings of truth is that "honourable teachers" don't travel around the world making a huge business of it. But do not confuse that with "Honourable teachers" don't travel around the world teaching. I do consider myself an "honourable teacher." I don't make a huge business out of it. Nor do the following instructors that I have had the priviledge of traveling worldwide teaching with, and in the past few years that I have personally had the opportunity to train with during those travels: Miura Takeyuki Hanshi, Shimabukuro Masayuki Hanshi, Hamada Tesshin Hanshi, Nakada Takeo Hanshi, Takada Kanji Hanshi, Kumai Kazuhiko Hanshi, Kuwahara Takemichi Hanshi, Kitano Takao Hanshi, etc...

As you may have noticed I included the names of the Japanese men that I have trained, traveled and taught with. Rest assuered, there were many more non-Japanese men and women that should equally be included on that list but your limited knowledge, ethnic discrimination and lack of experience would deny your acceptance of them as examples of "honourable teachers." But in time, it is my hope that you will recognize that the future of good budo lies throughout the world, within many skin colors, nationalities and religious beliefs.



Also, Japanese have a big "Island" mind, alot of them think(especially the old generation) they are the only ones in the world. They are "island" people after all!

Those that have had international students or that have traveled internationally have had to change their views considerably. I can tell you Mr. Karazosis, I have seen the transformation in many of these gentlemen. They are even embarrassed to admit that the future of "their" koryu lies outside of Japan. It is an Island mind, but they are not blind. The ones that express other than this are those that never leave their homes or dojo, only to become ethnocentric, nationalistic pervertions and a very small minority of the whole. These folks can be found in every culture and backwoods hick town in the world. I'm sure your city has it's fair share.


As for jealous individuals. Why would anyone care about whats happening in the Argentina budo world, apart from them? Your statement sounded a little paranoid, don't you think?

The "jealous individuals" I was speaking of Mr. Karazosis was you and others like you. And you took that bait hook, line and sinker. You don't care what's happening in Argentina or anywhere esle unles it's benefiting you. And if you think that it's benefiting anyone else, the little green monster called jealousy raises it's ugly head and lashes out at everyone that you perceive has more experience, notoriety, ability, money, friends, teachers and compassion than you do. Mr. Karazosis, everyone reading your posts here on e-budo can read between the lines of your egocentric posts. They don't have to look too far. I am not paranoid Mr. Karazosis, I am experienced. Something that you obviously are not. It is unfortunate that some of my colleagues here have been less than compassionate to you. You are young, inexperienced, misguided by your teacher, and devoid of the civility and control that exemplifies a mature human being and particularly a successful budoka. But years from now when you look back on this experience with more maturity and embarrassment, please be kind enough to yourself to know that I do not hold any resentment toward you. Your age, experience and lack of education neglect me of the ability to do so. And I hope that others here will be able to do the same.


Out of all the posts I've read here and in Kendo-world concerning this topic, I'd say this was a strategic business move involving Mr. Cirone AND Mr. Sekiguchi to block out any other Eishin ryu coming into argentina, Sekiguchi still gets his piece of the pie, and hey! their all happy, orelse why wouldn't he(Sekiguchi) hamon him? So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?

I believe it was absolutely a strategic business move by Mr. Cirone to keep all Koryu out of Argentina and neglect all Argentina people of exposure to anyone but Mr. Cirone in due time. As for Mr. Sekiguchi's involvement in the matter, you are a very arrogant and ignorant young man to insinuate that nothing has been or is being done.


So my question to you is this, are you pissed because you can't go globetrotting and teach the Argentinians, do you really care? or is it because they just poked some holes into your pocket, spilled your loose change, and took it away from you?

I am pisssed. But not because it will ever stop me from teaching in Argentina or anywhere else if requested to do so by the fine people that live there. Rather, because people like Mr. Cirone, given the chance, will do their best to deprive thise same people of an opportunity to change their lives for the better. Because Mr. Karazosis, he is not an honourable teacher, husband, mentor or citizen of his country. He takes advantage of students, his wife, his teacher and his country's laws to manipulate, sabotage,and extort money from those who would try to make their country a better place to live. Mr. Cirone did not give anyone else notice of his intentions or actions of filing for these trademarks until after he was able to sue them. That alone pisses me off. No, he laid under a rock waiting for the first unsuspecting, unwilling victim to pass by so that he could make a profit and a statement to all those who would follow.

My loose change? Mr. Karazosis, I don't need loose change. I have set up scholarship funds for underpriviledged men/women in less economically developed countries than the one I live in because my meager loose change can actually make a difference there versus what it can do in my own country. My loose change can buy iaito and shinken for people who make far more money than I but have children to care for, college educations to see to and are generally down on their luck. Whereas I no longer have those things to contend with. so THAT Mr. Karazosis is what causes the holes in my pockets where any loose change I may have spills out to. My trip abroad always cost me FAR more than it does anyone else.

In conclusion, I would like to express my apology to all of you that have had to endure this post. I know that it is unnecessary that you deal with all of this. But if this one individual can somehow glean an inkling of truth and understanding from it, then I feel that is was worth it. Mr. Karazosis, this will be my first and last response to you. Please grow up and find a mentor that can help you. You seem to have passion, direct it in positive endeavor that will first benefit yourself and then eventually others.

With humble regards, I am
Sincerely yours,

Carl Long

Vice Chairman/Director
Jikishin-Kai Intl

Ron Tisdale
28th February 2007, 17:30
In conclusion, I would like to express my apology to all of you that have had to endure this post.

No need to appologize, it was not a burden at all to read. In fact, I'm rather glad you took the time to compose and post it. Spot on, as a matter of fact.

Best,
Ron

DDATFUS
28th February 2007, 19:38
In conclusion, I would like to express my apology to all of you that have had to endure this post.

No need to apologize-- your post sure gave me a lot to think about.

cxt
28th February 2007, 20:59
Carl Long

"apology"

Nope, thanks for taking the time to bring the situation to folks attention and discussing it so throughly :)

Good reads on a number of your posts BTW.

In fact, with a single exception ;), everyone posted some really good stuff---thanks for taking the time!

Cady Goldfield
28th February 2007, 21:33
It even is happening with basmati rice:

Who owns basmati rice?

Rice farmers in India, Pakistan and Nepal have been growing and exporting basmati rice for years. This is now threatened by a patent which - if enforced internationally - could have a massive impact on these farmers. US company RiceTec has patented in the USA what it calls a 'novel rice line' under the name of basmati rice. The use of the name basmati in the patent has infuriated traditional basmati rice farmers and, if applied internationally, the company could claim ownership of basmati rice grown anywhere. Basmati rice farmers may in future have to pay royalties for the privilege of growing rice crops they have been farming for generations.

Adam Westphal
1st March 2007, 00:24
Or the reverse:

"Ethiopia filed with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office to trademark the names of three coffee-producing regions: Yirgacheffe, Harrar and Sidamo, where Fero is located."

"[a] pound of coffee fetched farmers an average price of $1.45. Figuring in the cost of generator fuel, bank interest, labor and transport across Ethiopia's dusty roads, it netted them less than $1. In the U.S., however, that same pound of coffee commands a much higher price: $26 for a bag of Starbucks' roasted Shirkina Sun-Dried Sidamo."

Ethiopia vs. Starbucks (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/03/05/8401343/index.htm)

pgsmith
1st March 2007, 19:42
In conclusion, I would like to express my apology to all of you that have had to endure this post.
Nothing to endure about it Carl! I very much enjoyed reading it. I thought it showed quite a bit of compassion and restraint, and more than a little essence of budo!
Kinda makes me shake my head at myself though! :)

Douglas Wylie
1st March 2007, 20:38
Kinda makes me shake my head at myself though! :)

Me too, when I see someone handle something in a classy way, I think "man, I still have a long way to go."

Eric Spinelli
2nd March 2007, 01:29
I don't believe this has been asked yet, though I do admit to skipping quite a few posts in this thread on account of, uh, the signal to noise ratio, but to those in the know:

What exactly has been copywrited? Is it the romanization, "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu," or has the guilty party actually obtained copywrites on the kanji? If so, does he have 無双直伝英信流 or 無雙直傳英信流? And むそうじきでんえいしんりゅう, ムソウジキデンエイシンリュウ? Does rights to one imply rights to the others? Exactly how far can you go in copywriting foreign scripts and languages? Pronunciation?

What about "Tanimura-ha Eishin Ryu"? Is that protected? Or "Tosa koryu"? Or even "Peerless, direct-transmission style of Eishin" or, in this case, the appropriate Spanish translation?

I realize that the original point being made is against the principle behind such dastardly deeds and the idea is to prevent this altogether rather than finding loopholes but I'm still curious.

Sincerely,

Steve Delaney
2nd March 2007, 02:43
You might be onto something there mate.

Tom Karazozis
4th March 2007, 20:52
I have deliberated for two days whether or not this post was worth responding to. I read all of your posts here on e-budo, read your profile, investigated your budo affiliation & non-affiliation and decided that I will address each of your "questions? / accusations?" as best as I can. Not because I feel a need to explain my intentions to the rest of the e-budo community, but because I believe that it is obvious that your age as listed in your profile and posting history here reveal elements of an undeveloped character that perhaps your seniors, parents and friends have neglected to help you develop.

Oh please Dr. Phil, spare me the mesmerizing-dramatic-psycology! Deliberated for 2 days? I'm sorry, I hope it didn't give you nightmares. If you base somebody's "undeveloped character" on the history of internet forum posts then you are an Idiot, yes I said it, and I can probably find some of your postings that will show the same, but remember your older and more "experienced", I'm not, but at least I know that, and don't go around claiming that "I am experienced". To me anyone that claims such stuff is just as inexperienced as anyone else. As for bringing in seniors, parents and friends, I can see that your trying to agitate me in some way, but it won't work, it just shows me that I've agitated YOU.






It has been my experience that a successful teacher is one that is able to communicate effectively and pass along to 'willing students' the nature of the techniques, philosophies, necessary skills and traditions of the art or science that he professes to teach. I believe that a successful teacher is one that is recognized as such by his mentors, peers and other accomplished (In this case Budo) members of the world communinty. A successsful teacher is one that can point to many examples of his/her students that exemplify the ability, understanding and nature of the materials presented to them. A successful teacher will most likely be able to show examples of his/her students that also have become effective teachers in their own right. A successful teacher will continue to reach out to those people that are not as priviledged as himself in order to help those who request tuition and guidance. Because he/she knows that someone has done that for him/her. A successful teacher is one that feels an obligation to continue to seek further study and guidance from those that know more, exemplify the traits that he/she is missing and accept such guidance humbly and appreciably.

In this I agree with you, but it just goes to show that non-successful teachers are the ones that give out ranks to everybody around the world without learning who their students really are and creates people like Mr. cirone. So who are his teachers again?


Your statement above seems to imply that I globe trot around the world uninvited pressuring people to follow me because I ask them. I travel to locations where I have been requested to teach by the people that live there, my teachers, and the Japanese federations that request such things. I have turned down more requests to travel and teach last year than I accepted. I have made a commitment to study my chosen arts by going to my teachers. My teachers (All of them!) have all been more than happy to reciprocate by traveling around the world to teach me and others as well. Other teachers that meet the above listed requirements have been very gracious to do the same. If you have not had this experience, I would suggest you align yourself with teachers that are willing to see you as a valuable enough person that they would be willing to invest the one commodity that they will never get back, their time.

Trust me I have seen it and will continue to see it, but seriously I'm not fond of big "Japanese federations" or any federation in fact. Kata competitions, kyu ranks, and such gives me some kind of disgust to what koryu has become or becoming, a sport just like Karate(black belt magazine anyone).







The only part of your statement above that rings of truth is that "honourable teachers" don't travel around the world making a huge business of it. But do not confuse that with "Honourable teachers" don't travel around the world teaching. I do consider myself an "honourable teacher." I don't make a huge business out of it. Nor do the following instructors that I have had the priviledge of traveling worldwide teaching with, and in the past few years that I have personally had the opportunity to train with during those travels: Miura Takeyuki Hanshi, Shimabukuro Masayuki Hanshi, Hamada Tesshin Hanshi, Nakada Takeo Hanshi, Takada Kanji Hanshi, Kumai Kazuhiko Hanshi, Kuwahara Takemichi Hanshi, Kitano Takao Hanshi, etc...

Please! there is no need in naming your whole federation your not winning some kind of oscar or grammy award here. This is not some kind of competition of showing howmuch Japanese people you know.


As you may have noticed I included the names of the Japanese men that I have trained, traveled and taught with. Rest assuered, there were many more non-Japanese men and women that should equally be included on that list but your limited knowledge, ethnic discrimination and lack of experience would deny your acceptance of them as examples of "honourable teachers." But in time, it is my hope that you will recognize that the future of good budo lies throughout the world, within many skin colors, nationalities and religious beliefs.

Trying to imply the fact that I am some sort of racist to win your audience over is total redundancy in my case. I'd name all the ethnicities of my friends and family, but I in fact am not here to win some kind of competition or audience.





Those that have had international students or that have traveled internationally have had to change their views considerably. I can tell you Mr. Karazosis, I have seen the transformation in many of these gentlemen. They are even embarrassed to admit that the future of "their" koryu lies outside of Japan. It is an Island mind, but they are not blind. The ones that express other than this are those that never leave their homes or dojo, only to become ethnocentric, nationalistic pervertions and a very small minority of the whole. These folks can be found in every culture and backwoods hick town in the world. I'm sure your city has it's fair share.

Again I agree with you on this, but in todays world of koryu and seeing how it is getting diluted because it's going to other countries, and getting changed with a whole bunch of tacky, samurai fantasy mentality crap, I would of left it with those folks that don't leave their dojos and homes.




The "jealous individuals" I was speaking of Mr. Karazosis was you and others like you. And you took that bait hook, line and sinker. You don't care what's happening in Argentina or anywhere esle unles it's benefiting you. And if you think that it's benefiting anyone else, the little green monster called jealousy raises it's ugly head and lashes out at everyone that you perceive has more experience, notoriety, ability, money, friends, teachers and compassion than you do. Mr. Karazosis, everyone reading your posts here on e-budo can read between the lines of your egocentric posts. They don't have to look too far. I am not paranoid Mr. Karazosis, I am experienced. Something that you obviously are not. It is unfortunate that some of my colleagues here have been less than compassionate to you. You are young, inexperienced, misguided by your teacher, and devoid of the civility and control that exemplifies a mature human being and particularly a successful budoka. But years from now when you look back on this experience with more maturity and embarrassment, please be kind enough to yourself to know that I do not hold any resentment toward you. Your age, experience and lack of education neglect me of the ability to do so. And I hope that others here will be able to do the same..

Jealous? please Inspector Mesmo. Why would I be jealous of "YOUR" experience, notoriety, money , friends? and If you think I'm somewhat embarrassed because you got the impression of putting me down on an internet forum well i'd say that you probably are embarrassed of some past internet discussions that you engaged in, and got YOU embarrassed, and then had to seek "guidance" for it. The only thing I'm embarrassed about is almost spilling my Newcastle Brown ale all over my screen because of your posts. As for reading between my lines. What lines are you talking about? There is nothing in between to read. Everything is right there in your face. You on the other hand hmmmm... your like a snake hiding in a bunny suit. You talk about how ridiculous and unfortunate using lawyers and courts is(which infact IS really digusting)but I know of someone that plays in the same way. Maybe if you look deep in a mirror youll see who it is. That will be My last post to you Mr. long, continue to be some sort of fancy mesmerizing speaker but in time life will take the snake out of you and show it to everyone.

Charles Mahan
4th March 2007, 22:05
Hey Tom, if you run across an old thread where Carl acts anything like you. Please do post it.

You seem to have a lot of ideas about how the world works. You might want to keep some of those to yourself for awhile. It's the best way to avoid foot in mouth disease. It is possible for you to have the wrong idea about people.

A.J. Bryant
4th March 2007, 23:05
Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but isn't Tom, his teacher, and dojo affiliated with Miura sensei and the Nippon Kobudo Jikishinkai, thus making him/them junior to Long sensei in the same organization? Why isn't this being handled "in-house"...?

A.J. Bryant
4th March 2007, 23:55
It has come to my attention that this issue has nothing to do with the Jikishinkai, due to information I've recieved regarding non-affiliation of the Shunpukan dojo within this organization... Hummmm.

Carl Long
4th March 2007, 23:56
Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but isn't Tom, his teacher, and dojo affiliated with Miura sensei and the Nippon Kobudo Jikishinkai, thus making him/them junior to Long sensei in the same organization? Why isn't this being handled "in-house"...?

Mr. Bryant, that is not possible due to the fact that they are not affiliated with those organizations. They are independent. Hence the vile comments.


Sorry I'm too late, you beat me to it!

K. Cantwell
5th March 2007, 02:13
I'm embarrassed about is almost spilling my Newcastle Brown ale

That explains it.

That dog is at the root of all evil.

(Although the evil usually has to do with football not keyboards.)

"Embarrassed" and "Newcastle Brown Ale" don't go in the same sentence.

Sorry...back to the main attraction.

Kevin Cantwell

DDATFUS
5th March 2007, 02:30
it just shows me that I've agitated YOU.



And just about everyone else who has posted here... funny thing, that. I mean, the way that so many people seem to find your posts both ignorant and offensive.

hyaku
5th March 2007, 03:33
As the present Soke already has intellectual copyright to HNIR he is already trying to trade mark something already taken.

Even then he can call anything what the hell he likes but I doubt if he would be able to write the kanji for any of them!

That's what I meant in this post. Copyright on Kanji someone can't even read? Handed down Tora no Maki (MJER Menkyo Kaiden) that no one can decipher? Zero regognition in japan for thieves. Japan is proud of it's traditions and does not go around giving them to foreigners.

The essence of a ryu is handed down from person to person. Its not on paper. Yagyu's certification to one Kumamoto Lord was a blank piece of paper. It's intellectual copyright and you cant take that away.

Carl Long
5th March 2007, 14:20
That's what I meant in this post. Copyright on Kanji someone can't even read? Handed down Tora no Maki (MJER Menkyo Kaiden) that no one can decipher? Zero regognition in japan for thieves. Japan is proud of it's traditions and does not go around giving them to foreigners.

The essence of a ryu is handed down from person to person. Its not on paper. Yagyu's certification to one Kumamoto Lord was a blank piece of paper. It's intellectual copyright and you cant take that away.

Mr Hyakutake,

I couldn't agree with you more. There is nothing these folks are going to do legally that will insure them the rights to the intellectual property that rightfully belongs to the Soke or Japanese people in general. But, the intellectual rights do not insure you or the rightfull owners of these or other bugei from being sued by these unscrupulous people. Imagine having just returned from your last teaching trip to Canada only to find that someone there that has absolutely no claim to your teachers art has instituted litigation against you or your teacher. I know that everyone here has already played out this hypothetical scenario in their own minds. What would your reaction be to a judgment against you or your colleagues? I would like to hear others' opinion as well...what would your consequential actions be given such a situation? I am truly curious...

Once again I want to state that I am in complete agreement with your sentiment regarding who has the ethical and moral rights to the intellectual property. But I don't really think this has been the only issue from the beginning. It's about who can LEGALLY assert a claim to the trademark in a given nation once it's been filed and accepted. And everyone else in the world, where the local laws allow this to happen, becomes an unwilling victim whether you choose to accept it or not. This is the real tragedy. As I requested above, I'd like to hear from others what their reaction to such an event would be if they were in engaged in this affair. Because I assure you, you are affected whether you choose to believe it at this time or not. Thank you for your comments in advance.

Regards,

C Long

cxt
5th March 2007, 14:41
Its like people are keep trying to tell Tom--and Tom keeps deliberately ignoring, is the issues of intellecutal theft thu local legal manipulation.

I have no idea as to the to the "why's" or motivations of this situation---just very concerned as to its implications.

If Tom can't figure that out--well, then I guess he made his choice.

Always much easier to mock then think. ;)

Kusarigama
5th March 2007, 14:45
The Bard said it best:

"It is a tale
Told by an idiot,
full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”

(Macbeth, V, v, 19).

I suggest we not respond at all to any more of his childish insults. Ignoring him is the worse thing we can do to him. His oversized Ego will not be able to deal with that.

He will eventually go away and find a new kindergarten sand box to play in.

Britt Nichols

K. Cantwell
5th March 2007, 15:46
How far does this really go? Do we have a definitive answer as to what exactly is trademarked? On what grounds can exponents be sued by this guy and guys like him?

If you were to go to Argentina and do your art but call it something different, would that be legal? Are the kata names (most of which are quite generic, I would assume) legal property also?

I guess I'm asking for a cleared picture as to what exactly this guy’s “property” is and what is not.

Kevin Cantwell

Carl Long
5th March 2007, 16:19
How far does this really go? Do we have a definitive answer as to what exactly is trademarked? On what grounds can exponents be sued by this guy and guys like him?

If you were to go to Argentina and do your art but call it something different, would that be legal? Are the kata names (most of which are quite generic, I would assume) legal property also?

I guess I'm asking for a cleared picture as to what exactly this guy’s “property” is and what is not.

Kevin Cantwell

Hello Mr. Cantwell,

Those questions are exactly the questions that Mr. Cirone does not want anyone to be able to answer until it's too late.

Here is where it gets even more complicated. He has received the rights to the following names as trademarks thus far:

Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu
Suio Ryu
Niten Ichi Ryu
Komei Jyuku and the 'Kamon' of Sekiguchi Komei

The terms of the judgement and court settlement stated that the only information that could be released is that he has the rights to the trademarks. That means that he doesn't want anyone else to know what other rights he has to the property. The defendant cannot discuss the settlement amount or other legal rights of the plaintiff. The agreement stated that if the amounts or terms were discussed, he could file for more damages. But rest assured there was a significant settlement.

So to add to the mix...how do you feel now, not knowing what he can come after you for? As I stated in an earlier post, I can only assume that he is once again lying under a rock waiting for the next individual to make an announcement regarding some recognized koryu.

I wish I could give you more information than that. But I am not willing to jeopardize this poor guy that has already had to pay in the process.

Respectfully,

C Long

cxt
5th March 2007, 16:30
K. Cantwell.

My read--and as always subject to correction, is that the "name" is what is in question.

You could probably put up signs all over town calling it "traditonal japanese swordsmanship." Probably even be able to list the training history of the teacher as well.

I don't know the legal framwork in Argentina--but I would doubt that one could retroactivly prevent a person from publically stating that he/she was granted a menkyo back in 1973 in 'X" ryu, given to them by Headmaster "Y"
Its a statement of fact that predates the sitution question.

I would also hazard a guess that the kata--with all respect--are prehaps to generic to be covered--the techniques are probably used in one form or another by pretty much all ryu.
So you would have to prevent ALL people from even swinging a stick around. ;)

Don't think you could "own" a baseball batter swing a tennis players serve, or a soccor players kick.
A swordsmens cut is probably little different.

And if it WERE attempted the level of detail required would self-defeating.
A person would have to be so exact--as in "the cut comes in at a 20 degree angle at "X" level of power--for each and every teeny-tiny bit of motion throughout the lenght of the kata.
And if a person did try---then a very slight change in the angle of the cut would make it "different."

Weird situation that is probably going to end up badly for the guy.

I mean what is he going to do when students start doing research--and sooner or later every student does.
What is he going to do when his students find out that there is a whole history and organization in Japan (and world-wide) that they are not a part of???
What is he going to do when one of the more dedicated folks contact the hombu in Japan??

cxt
5th March 2007, 16:38
Carl Long

You would not happen to know if simply listing ones training history would be actionable in this case would you??
I mean a University owns its name--but they can't prevent people from listing them as a degree granting insititution on their diplomas if that is where they got them.
Could his trademark prevent someone that was issued a menkyo in say 1973 from mentioning it???

Wondering what context the ownership of the name occurs and operates in.

What are your thoughts?

Also wondering if you could simply bypass the problem by not using the actual name.

Just claiming to teach "japanese swordwork" then listing your teacher, and his teacher and his teacher and his teacher, let the students work it out?

DDATFUS
5th March 2007, 16:57
Wondering what context the ownership of the name occurs and operates in.


Well, just a few guesses here:

The Coca-cola Corporation has probably trademarked the name "coke" and has definitely trademarked the name "coca-cola." But I can say, "I just drank a coke," or even "I just drank a coca-cola," all day long. Obviously they aren't going to come after me for that. What if I were a novelist, and in one of my books a character said, "I just drank a coca-cola?" Would that violate the trademark? I doubt it. I suspect that you have to be doing something commercial with the name in order for it to count. So I could tell someone, "I practice MJER," and probably be fine, but if I put "MJER" on the outside of the dojo, that would be trouble. If a sensei were coming into town for a seminar and I put "MJER" on the advertisements, that would probably be trouble. If I wrote a biography of that sensei and said in the biography "he spent fifty years studying MJER," I think that would pass.

So what if I wrote up a flyer, advertising for a seminar, which described the event as a "traditional japanese swordsmanship seminar," and described the sensei as "a teacher of traditional Japanese swordsmanship," and then listed in his resume, amongst other things, "fifty years of MJER?"

Anyway, this could all be wrong. Take it for what it's worth.

K. Cantwell
5th March 2007, 17:05
Hello Mr. Long,


The terms of the judgement and court settlement stated that the only information that could be released is that he has the rights to the trademarks. That means that he doesn't want anyone else to know what other rights he has to the property. The defendant cannot discuss the settlement amount or other legal rights of the plaintiff.

Thanks very much for the reply. The problems your ryu faces are compunded by the fact that you don't really know the extent of the problems you face. What can you do legally and what can you get nailed for?

Kevin Cantwell

Carl Long
5th March 2007, 17:10
Take it for what it's worth.



Everyones opinions and suggestions are worth plenty. Many of the above suggestions that these gentlemen have posed have already been considered. But opening up the discussion to more possibilities simply allows for more avenues of approach in the future. I originally started this thread for the exact same reason, your opinions and suggestions are valued. Please feel free to continue to make valuable suggestions.

K. Cantwell
5th March 2007, 17:12
Hello Chris,


would also hazard a guess that the kata--with all respect--are prehaps to generic to be covered--the techniques are probably used in one form or another by pretty much all ryu.

This is what I am trying to mull over.

Can this guy stop you from doing the characterisitc movements of your school? Can you get around it by not using the names of the kata that appear on the scrolls? What about changing the order of the movments in the kata?

I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around somebody outside the tradition legally "owning" the physical component of a ryu. I've heard of Cease and Desist orders before regarding names, but actual technique is something different. The previous attitude had been, I thought, "Do what you want, just don't call it XYZ." If that is changing to "Not only can't you call it XYZ, but you can't even do it," that is something different.

Is it all about the name?

Kevin Cantwell

Carl Long
5th March 2007, 17:39
Hello Mr. Long,



Thanks very much for the reply. The problems your ryu faces are compunded by the fact that you don't really know the extent of the problems you face. What can you do legally and what can you get nailed for?

Kevin Cantwell


Mr Cantwell,

I am pretty confident that I know what is possible for us to use in the future. But at this point, the parties that have 'already' been sued are not the ones who are in the most danger of being sued. Knowing Mr. Cirones past actions, I would surmise that the above listed trademarks are not the only ones he plans on filing for. Especially now that he has received a judgement in his favor that makes it lucrative for him to do so. So I would posit that it is YOUR RYU and others that need to be concerned at this point because you don't know what you're up against one way or another yet.

This is my point of the discussion now. What action do each of you feel should be taken at this point to ensure that others are not targeted unknowingly to them? How do you research every countries trademark list so that you are confident that you are not infringing upon someones local right to the name, unknown to you?

Do you see that there are vindictive members of our JSA community right here on e-budo that would take great pleasure in doing you harm? Browse this thread for confirmation of that. Each of you in the martial arts world are now subject to these problems. Its a sad time we live in...

cxt
5th March 2007, 17:46
DDATFUS

That is kinda what I had in mind.

Again, not sure that it would work, but thanks for your input.

K. Cantwell
5th March 2007, 18:38
This is my point of the discussion now. What action do each of you feel should be taken at this point to ensure that others are not targeted unknowingly to them? How do you research every countries trademark list so that you are confident that you are not infringing upon someones local right to the name, unknown to you?

Probably the best thing to do is what another member here (a lawyer) said he was doing in a related thread. That is, he secured trademarks for his ryu on behalf of his teacher. It may leave a bad taste in your mouth, but it's better than the alternative.

In this country, I'm pretty sure that any infringement lawsuit must be preceded by a Cease & Desist order. It would be a rude awakening to find that your name has been trademarked by some dude in Oshkosh that never trained in your art, but you would have some time to deal with it before the hammer dropped.

In re-reading my last post, I realized that I was mistaken. It’s not an issue of the whether or not a koryu can be owned, but who owns it. A koryu has always been “owned” by the family. That traditional concept has very little chance of survival in a modern world with a very different view of ownership. As Cady mentioned above, Indian rice farmers are battling agricorps over the name Basmati and Bolivians had to spill blood in the streets of Cochabamba before the ownerships rights of rainwater were settled.

It becomes a case of if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. The only solution seems to be to beat some other guy to the punch and get the trademark yourself.


Kevin Cantwell

DDATFUS
5th March 2007, 19:12
The only solution seems to be to beat some other guy to the punch and get the trademark yourself.



So I take it that we're not viewing dojo arashi as an acceptable response to this issue? :D

Tom Karazozis
6th March 2007, 02:34
Mr. Bryant, that is not possible due to the fact that they are not affiliated with those organizations. They are independent. Hence the vile comments.


Sorry I'm too late, you beat me to it!

Your absolutely right about that! My teacher is not part of your "organization" at all, and not to fond of big organizations either, but I can tell you that he is still part of his Iai teacher as he visits him when he can, and at his home in Shimane. If you want to know more about it I suggest you ask him when he gets back from Japan. He does not have much interest in joining big organizations as he still trains and seeks the "way" not names, labels or lawyers!, and must also train with his teachers of bukkyo, due to the fact that he is a monk ordained by his Roshi in the rinzai-shu in wu-tai shan(go-dai san) china, and also trains in shingon-shu in Japan, oh and don't forget his shakuhachi teacher in Japan.

I train with my teacher in Iai as much as I can, but also study several kinds of other stuff as well. I travel to Japan every year and stay with my in-laws and study as much as I can with My wife's Grand father, owing to the fact of him being a Yamabushi-priest ordained at Haguro-san, which is one of the three mountains of dewa-sanzan in Yamagata-ken, maybe youve heard of it. To further my training with him and other teachers that I will seek, I will also be moving to Fukushima-ken this july with my wife and daughter, because I feel I can probably learn alot from a "mountain ascetic" and their types of shugyo(organizations, papers and lawyers do not exist in the mountains), if you want to see backwood hicks that are somewhat ethnocentric you should visit these guys, you have to earn their respect, especially if your a gaijin. So if you want to act somewhat "Tengu" and feel or act "special" I suggest you play with someone else, Because I don't care about your Name labeling and such or showing off with pictures of you getting hugged from someone that gives you "guidance". I didn't attack your organization or teacher, I attacked you because you play with laywers and act all surprised when others do the same. If you wanna play names it can be played by both, but to tell you the truth, I don't give a damn about names or being the most notorious, respected, mesmerizing organization of "martial arts", If you do, then good luck and good luck to your students.


Its like people are keep trying to tell Tom--and Tom keeps deliberately ignoring, is the issues of intellecutal theft thu local legal manipulation.

I have no idea as to the to the "why's" or motivations of this situation---just very concerned as to its implications.

If Tom can't figure that out--well, then I guess he made his choice.

Always much easier to mock then think. !

Don't worry I fully understand of the intellectual theft through local legal manipulation, I just don't care about what mr. cirone does. He will lose credibility fast enough, and so will others who follow him. If your so scared of losing the beloved name of your school then why are you training in budo? Is it really about that? the name? As Mr. Hyakutake stated "The essence of a ryu is handed down from person to person. Its not on paper.". Maybe this will help you understand what I'm talking to you about, and alot of the others seeing it in this way. Here is a translated piece of text from the linji-lu(rinzai-roku) that will maybe give you some peace of mind, and not follow into the kind of plans that waste time in your training, like the plans of Mr. cirone and OTHERS like him.



What is Dharma? Dharma is the Law of the Heart. The Law of
the Heart is without form; pervading everywhere, it is perceptible
and active right before your eyes. But, if there is lack of faith,
then one chases names and phrases and, in a welter of words,
arbitrarily speculates on the Buddha-Dharma which is as far away
as is heaven from earth.
b. Followers of the Way, what Dharma do I expound? I expound
the Dharma of the Heart-ground.36

This pervades everything; it is in the worldly and in the sacred, in
the pure and impure, the fine and the coarse. The most essential
thing is that you refrain from making labels, such as fine or
coarse, worldly or sacred, and (mistakenly) think that by naming
them you now know them. But the fine and the coarse, the
worldly and the sacred cannot be known to man by the name
only.
Followers of the Way, realize this and make use of it, but do not
slap labels on it, for these tend to be like pen-names, only
creating mystery.

This will be My final post on this forum, I will no longer poor My egocentric, ignorance on none of you, you can breathe now! cheers :beer:

DDATFUS
6th March 2007, 04:12
So if you want to act somewhat "Tengu"

what on earth does that mean?


If your so scared of losing the beloved name of your school then why are you training in budo? Is it really about that? the name?

no, it's not about the name-- budo is about respect. And this guy is showing serious disrespected for many styles of budo and for the people who have practiced them. I think that what this instructor has done is a serious insult to the generations of men and women who have passed these arts onto us, and that we as custodians of these arts for future generations have a right to be concerned and offended.

Watching someone try to steal what he has no right to is disgusting, whether or not he can truly succeed. Watching someone try to use budo for extortion is also disgusting. We have the right to express our opinions on this matter, whether or not we are in Argentina.

You keep saying that this is none of our business. As people with an interest in budo, we most definitely have a stake in this-- this man's actions reflect on all of us, and affect all of us. Do I directly suffer? No, I don't live in Argentina and I don't practice MJER. Nor do I have any intention of doing either. But I still feel like this affects me.

Not too long ago, I heard someone on the radio say some extremely insulting and demeaning things about the religion that I follow. Once a friend of a friend of mine made some extremely rude jokes about the savior that I believe died for my sake. In neither case did that person's words somehow hurt the personal relationship that I have with my God. In neither case was my own chance of salvation somehow jeopardized. But in both cases, I felt offended. My faith is something intangible within me that no outside force can damage, just as my pursuit of budo is something that is well outside the control of any silly trademark laws. Still, I am upset when my faith is attacked or demeaned, just as I am upset when someone takes actions that demean the principles of budo.

You've never answered my question about whether or not it is right for the soke of Suio Ryu to have no rights to use that name when he is in Argentina.

You've also never answered the question of how you would feel if someone trademarked the name Karzozis.

You've never said anything to the points that several of us have raised about our beliefs and why we feel this way-- you've just tried to sling mud and insults. You've offended several people here with both your words and attitude.


This will be My final post on this forum,

Forgive me for being rude, but don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Steve Delaney
6th March 2007, 12:14
This will be My final post on this forum, I will no longer poor My egocentric, ignorance on none of you, you can breathe now! cheers :beer:

Bye Then! :)

Kusarigama
6th March 2007, 12:32
One thing Mr. Karazozis, perhaps in his youth, has failed to understand is that everything we say, everything we do and everything we write reflects on those who have gone before us.

Rightly or wrongly, for good or for evil, people judge our parents, our mentors, our religion and our sensei based on those things.

Most of us may never meet Mr. Karazozis' sensei.

But if Mr. Karazozis is an accurate and true reflection of his sensei's teachings, I must state that I am not impressed.

If Mr. Karazozis does not represent his sensei's teachings, then I feel sorrow for his sensei.

As to Mr. Karazozis "leaving".

Fear not.

Trolls never die. They just hide under bridges waiting for the next victum to attack.


Britt Nichols

Josh Reyer
6th March 2007, 13:28
what on earth does that mean?


In Japan, "becoming a tengu" (a kind of crow-goblin) means roughly the same as "getting a big/swelled head".

chrismoses
6th March 2007, 14:46
Most of us may never meet Mr. Karazozis' sensei.



But we have read his posts. (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/search.php?searchid=271307)

Charles Mahan
6th March 2007, 14:50
That link appears to be broken Chris, but I know which thread you were looking for. I'll see if I can dig it up.

chrismoses
6th March 2007, 14:53
That link appears to be broken Chris, but I know which thread you were looking for. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Bumin' oh well, just search for username "Roninseb".

DDATFUS
6th March 2007, 14:54
One thing Mr. Karazozis, perhaps in his youth, has failed to understand is that everything we say, everything we do and everything we write reflects on those who have gone before us.


Britt, what's with this "youth" thing? According to his profile, he was born in '79-- that's five years older than I am. Now I can hardly claim to be any paragon of maturity, but I do think that I am getting past the age where I can legitimately claim "youth" as an excuse when I misbehave (this leaves me, of course, with the options of either misbehaving less often or finding more creative excuses. I generally choose the latter).


In Japan, "becoming a tengu" (a kind of crow-goblin) means roughly the same as "getting a big/swelled head".

Interesting. I'm familiar with legends surrounding the tengu, but I had never heard of this particular expression. Thanks for the information.

Charles Mahan
6th March 2007, 14:58
Ahh well. The thread I was thinking of was deleted. I thought there was a cached version in google, but I can't seem to find it anymore. Probably best for maintaining the general peace.

Kusarigama
6th March 2007, 15:05
Britt, what's with this "youth" thing? According to his profile, he was born in '79-- that's five years older than I am.

Ah.... subtle sarcasm is still a lost art.....

Some of us were actually born a lot earlier than 1979. ;-)

To rip off that great Philosopher "Forrest Gump"... "Childish is what childish does"

Britt Nichols

DDATFUS
6th March 2007, 16:16
Ah.... subtle sarcasm is still a lost art.....

oops... I always have trouble picking up on typed sarcasm. It's hard for me to read the cues online.



Some of us were actually born a lot earlier than 1979. ;-)



That's actually one of the main reasons I hang out here. It's incredibly interesting to hear from those of you who were born way back when one might find oneself having to actually use a sword-- to fend of a velociraptor :D

cxt
6th March 2007, 16:25
Tom

Know your not going to be around to read this--;)

But that is the most odd mismash that I have heard all month--course were still just a few days into March--plenty of time left to top it.

This has exactly NOTHING to do with the "essence" of a ryu and EVERYTHING to do with backdoor legal manuipulation.
It has to do with people asserting legal ownership of something that does not actually belong to them.
It has to do with people being sued and legally prevented from using the name of their OWN ryu in public.

That may not bother you "up in the mountians" of Japan and all---but it might be a serious problem should you ever choose to come down form the mount or if a given teacher should want to pass on his art--and find that he or she no longer has the legal rights to the name of their OWN ryu.

Serious people find that a potentially serious problem.

Something else that requires mention is the direct implication of post---in effect you just said "hey not my problem" since it does not effect you personally its a "non" problem.
My bet is that if did you would be howling bloody murder.
The whole "not my problem" thing may help you sleep better at night--but it lets folks know exactly where they stand with you---exactly no-place.
Hey, if it does not effect you directly--then why should you care, right?????

Aozora
6th March 2007, 19:57
What makes this "our problem" is that Carl Long asked us, on a public opinion forum about Japanese martial arts, for an opinion on an occurance relating to Japanese martial art. That's where it begins and ends for the vast majority of folks here, regardless of how passionate we may feel about the cause.

Chris--all of that mishmash above you should read as him committing the fallacy of appeal to authority. Obviously, if he can connect himself to Buddhists priests in mountain areas, anything he says is as though it came from the lips of the Buddha itself, so consider yourself duly chastised. ;)

I will say, we should all take his warning not to "play tengu" as it is quite evident he has a great deal of experience in this arena.

As to youth, I was born in 1973 and I am still a brash youth who still has much to learn from my teachers who are all about 20 years older than I and considered in their "prime."

Back to training for me. Carl, I can offer you no further insight, only to say that it has been my experience that where honest effort is applied, things have a way of working themselves out. Keep faith in the way those with the true spirit of budo will prevail in continuing to spead their arts.

Dan Keding
7th March 2007, 21:39
Neighbors,

As far as the situation with Mr. Cirone in Argentina it seems to me to be another example of "Cultural Manifest Destiny" - I can take it so I will. Very sad.

As far as Tom I find that also very sad. His obvious interest in both the martial arts and the religions of China and Japan perplex me when I read the anger and personal attacks in his posts. His dismissive behavior and his lack of compassion don't reflect someone who is under the influences he lists. He at one point decries the undoing of budo with tests, tournaments, etc. but then goes on a rampage against Carl Long, a respected member of the community. Most of the budo practioners I know who actually try to live in some way the lessons they learn in the dojo would never have acted so disrespectfully. If he thinks this self gratifying display of anger was going to win him any respect I'm afraid he was wrong.

I don't think that this attitude comes with youth. I know too many young martial artists who would never act the way Tom did on these posts. They have too respect for the arts.

Tom has signed off and that is probably good. I wish that we could have engaged him in constructive discussion rather than been the target of his destructive behavior but it can't happen if he won't give us a chance.

Take care,

hyaku
9th March 2007, 01:42
To cut it short and sweet one can't copyright someone elses intellect coming from ones deepest thoughts and spiritual feelings.

It could be done in name only but as the names we speak of are not even in the English language So that's a waste of time too.

Reading up on the posts of our "Will not post anymore person and not wishing to be too rude......

Smacks of "A visitor to Japan" who thinks the sun shines out of the posteriors of every Japanese. Being connected to the Yamabushi is no big deal. Working for a Buddhist sect for over twenty years I have seen everything from priests withtwo wives to regular religious meets in the yakitori (barbecue shop).

What one might think about Japan through yearly visits and the reality of things is somewhat different.

Knowing that someone had tried to copyright a ryu abroad would probably bring on fits of laughter from most sensei knowing that those that were dong it could not even read Japanese. In Japan its Bunbu Ichi (pen and sword in accord).

Tom Karazozis
9th March 2007, 02:54
Smacks of "A of a visitor to Japan" who thinks the sun shines out of the posteriors of every Japanese. Being connected to the Yamabushi is no big deal. Working for a Buddhist sect for over twenty years I have seen everything from priests withtwo wives to regular religious meets in the yakitori (barbecue shop).

Don't want to brag , but I never mentioned of being "connected" to anything. Mr. Arizona said that. As for sun shining from every Japanese !!! I think you should mention that to some of the people that hang around overhere. I've seen most of the crap going on in japan and even from "respected" budo or Buddhist, Shugendo etc... practitionars. Old Obo-san with a Gold Rolex wrist watch with an Italian sports car collection hmmmm... Must of been from reciting all of those Okyo. If I would have no idea of the reality of things that goes on in Japan I wouldn't even live there, but after learning all the crap that goes on I've accepted it and will be on my way.

For all the funny comments, I will give you an answer because I feel as if your waiting for one. Yes I did come here and attack one of your Budo community "gurus" If that insulted you or made you suffer in any way well then I can't really do anything for you, I guess some people design there own suffering. I attcked him because he talked about people playing with lawyers that were in budo and showed some kind of hatred toward it, but he DOES THE SAME!!!!!!! and again for Mr. cirone I'm not pushing anybody to stop "fighting the power" in a way I feel that It's not his fault that he's a dumass, It's the people that graded him and gave him his "rank" and rites to teach. Thats what happens when schools go allover the place and get big. The Teachers don't know who they are trusting. Why do you think that from the beggining of any Keiko-jo or Monastery they would make you wait and see how bad you wanted to learn and get to know you, sometimes waiting for weeks, months and sometimes never even being accepted. Still some places that do it. Thats why you have to expect these things and let them go.

For Mr. CXT, Shugyo is a pilgrimage, it doesn't mean living in the mountains! Should it be a problem if I come down from the mountains? don't think so! as this kind of mumbo jumbo won't apply in Japan. Japanese Bujutsu are Japanese owned and sanctioned.

Trevor Johnson
9th March 2007, 03:46
For all the funny comments, I will give you an answer because I feel as if your waiting for one. Yes I did come here and attack one of your Budo community "gurus" If that insulted you or made you suffer in any way well then I can't really do anything for you, I guess some people design there own suffering. I attcked him because he talked about people playing with lawyers that were in budo and showed some kind of hatred toward it, but he DOES THE SAME!!!!!!! and again for Mr. cirone I'm not pushing anybody to stop "fighting the power" in a way I feel that It's not his fault that he's a dumass, It's the people that graded him and gave him his "rank" and rites to teach.

It may not be my place to say this, but have you considered that your posts might be much better received if they followed a logical flow, used correct grammar and spelling, and didn't sound like you were foaming all over the keyboard?

Half the time I haven't a clue what you're trying to say, the other half it's an effort.

Charles Mahan
9th March 2007, 04:16
Working for a Buddhist sect for over twenty years I have seen everything from priests withtwo wives to regular religious meets in the yakitori (barbecue shop).


To paraphrase one of my favorite authors.... Two Wives!!! He's either the luckiest man in the world, or the biggest fool since creation.

fifthchamber
9th March 2007, 04:41
Surely the luckiest man in the world has two girlfriends, preferably on good terms and with mutual umm...Interests?
Wait...We're derailing this valiant attempt at lucidity by Mr. Karazosis...

Kusarigama
9th March 2007, 10:12
For someone who claims that he is leaving us poor deluded folk behind, he sure seems to hang around.

Just like certain entertainment types who threaten to leave the United States if certain politicians are elected.

Over and over again. ;-)

Ignore him. It will drive him crazy.


Britt Nichols

K. Cantwell
9th March 2007, 12:04
For someone who claims that he is leaving us poor deluded folk behind, he sure seems to hang around.

The problem, I think, is one of forum protocol and I've seen it happen quite a bit over the years. It becomes a rhetorical comedy.

Someone will say "Screw you, I'm leaving." This is then followed by a bunch of posts taking a parting shot at the guy (who may very well deserve it), then the "Screw You" guy comes back to answer parting shots. Rinse and repeat.

This is, I think what is going on here. I've found that if you really think the community would be better off without somebody, it is best to ignore them rather than re-engage. As I said, the parting shots may be justified, but this is balanced against giving the guy resistance to fight against.

I also think it is simple human nature to check back in to see if you are being talked about. That's probably what Tom did. He saw the comments and decided to answer them. This doesn't mean that you can never reference past comments by someone, but directly calling their character into question is probably going to get them back at the keyboard. We can certainly say what we wish, but the return of Tom should not be a surprise in this case.

It's tough to hold off on the "Good riddance" posts, but most of the time, those will get a response. Tom will say that he said goodbye so why are we still talking about him? We will say he deserved it by behaving like a troll. Neither one really has the high ground, in my opinion. (If he really didn't care about us, he wouldn't be logging in....if we didn't care about him we wouldn't be talking about him.)

Getting the last word in on these forum things seems to be a bid deal.

Kevin Cantwell

Steve Delaney
9th March 2007, 14:42
wait, didn't he leave already? :rolleyes:

George Kohler
9th March 2007, 17:47
Half the time I haven't a clue what you're trying to say, the other half it's an effort.

Could be that English is not his primary language. He is from Montreal which means that French is the official language of Quebec (and Montreal).

cxt
9th March 2007, 18:25
Tom

Its not "Mr CXT" its just "cxt." ;)

And as far as the bujutsu being "japanese owned and sanctioned" you seem to have missed the essential point of the entire discussion.

In this case, a " japanese bujutsu" is de-faco "owned" by a dude in Argentina, might even own more than one.

We can wax all zen about the specific's of teaching and parse things down with a laser fine distinction of what is "ownership"--but at the end of the day some guy has figured out a way to manipulate his local legal system to assert ownership of stuff that really belongs to other people.

Try thinking of it like this.

Say I figure out a way to take legal ownership of YOUR ACTUAL NAME---I own the rights to the words/designation "Tom Karazozis."

Now I don't "really" own YOU personally, your still you, I can't take actual ownership of all the various traits, abilites, thoughts, feelings, experiences etc that make up "you."

I can however sue you each and everytime that you try and use your OWN NAME for anything, unless of course you wish to pay me to use it.
Every time you post on this site, every time you sign your name to anything, every time your name appears in public, every time you say or speak or write your OWN name----you have to write me a check or get sued.

Not a very exact comparision of course, but it should give you a fair idea of just what a pain in the rear the LEAST of the ramifications of this situation might be.

Post-hoc rationalizations aside, this is not a good situation.

Hishaam Bendiar
10th March 2007, 11:44
Could be that English is not his primary language. He is from Montreal which means that French is the official language of Quebec (and Montreal).

If i'm not mistaken by the sound of his name, he's of greek descent, most if not all people with greek background are anglophone montrealers.

Back to your normal programing.

roninseb
14th March 2007, 02:36
Hey Tom, if you run across an old thread where Carl acts anything like you. Please do post it.

You seem to have a lot of ideas about how the world works. You might want to keep some of those to yourself for awhile. It's the best way to avoid foot in mouth disease. It is possible for you to have the wrong idea about people.

Funny enough here you go then!

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5226&highlight=tachi+uchi+kurai

This whole thread resulted in lawyer letters being sent to the one who was arguing about the situation. Very ironic from one group that complains about lawyer and copyright issues budo ethics etc...

Quite unbelievable that a lawyer letter was sent for such a meaningless discussion.


This just proves that when people act this way they have MONEY to lose and this touches them greatly. If their budo was that great this kind of stuff would not touch them.

Charles Mahan
14th March 2007, 13:15
Carl certainly seems argumentative in that thread, but so do most of the other principles in that exchange. Tom has not been acting argumentative. He's been downright rude and crude on multiple occasions. I see nothing in that linked thread where Carl refers to a sex act or anything remotely as vulgar.

K. Cantwell
14th March 2007, 15:25
If their budo was that great this kind of stuff would not touch them.

I thought the whole point of this thread was the issue of the possessive.

What does "their" mean in the context of a Japanese ryu if legal ownership can be granted by the courts? Who can actually use terms like "my budo" in referring to specific schools?

Yes, there is the ideal recourse to the esoteric nature of budo and what one derives from it, ("nobody can ever own my budo because it is part of my soul" type stuff), but this thread was dealing with the reality of ownership in the 21stC.

Should those who traditionally have been seen as owners and caretakers of ryu be forced to fight legal battles for the "right" to continue to use the name of their traditions? That was the question I thought was being posed by the thread.

On the one hand, seems pretty easy to say “such is life (and globalization)…deal with it.” On the other, there are some interesting academic issues that arise from stuff like this and they throw a light on the where the world is headed in terms of possession and ownership.

Kevin Cantwell

pgsmith
14th March 2007, 17:56
Sounds to me like there are more than enough sour grapes in this thread to make a case of cheap whine!! :)

Aozora
20th March 2007, 14:23
At the risk of restarting this flame war, I found something in the e-budo archives that I thought relvant to the discussion here http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4521

Specifically, from Karl Friday sensei:


While bugei ryuha didn't license and promulagate branch schools on the natori pattern, they DO seem to have PROHIBITED them. That is, they do appear to have made efforts to stop unauthorized use of a ryuha name, which amounts to affirmation (in the negative) of much the same sort of proprietary rights to artistic/intellectual property claimed by other arts. Certainly it was not the case that any student, or even any "graduate" (recipient of menkyo kaiden) was free to claim to teach xyz-ryu under that name.