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MuMuLi
21st January 2007, 07:03
I understand there many different ryuha have their own style of Chiburi and Noto. Here is a video of someone doing a series of very interesting notos. Do anyone know which ryuha are these are from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40KorEGqiY0

Fred27
21st January 2007, 07:31
The first noto he did was definetly a katori shinto-ryu noto, or at primarily inspired by it anyways.

I like the one where he rubs the blood off with his foot. :rolleyes: (about 02.08 into the clip)

Chidokan
21st January 2007, 11:00
I wonder who teaches him?

Fred27
21st January 2007, 12:33
The user posting the clips on YT is the same as the performer.

And just for the heck of it, I noticed he has also made a "jo"-clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9dDn5k1les. Looks like a slower version of the regular Aiki-jo forms.

socho
21st January 2007, 13:51
per his comments in the video, he is a stuntman and a mid-level aiki guy. Lots of 'stuntman' stuff in both the noto (good rule - avoid anything entitled 'samurai sword' something) and the jo clips. Looks like stuff cobbled together from a bunch of different sources, as well as some made up stuff. I'd recommend he work more on getting the draw cut right or he won't have to worry about cleaning off someone's else's blood. Basics first, then the fancy stuff (maybe).

Dave

sven beulke
21st January 2007, 15:30
The first noto he did was definetly a katori shinto-ryu noto, or at primarily inspired by it anyways.
Hi All!
The first one would make a slim third place in a TSKSR-noto-lookalike contest. The rotation of the sword shows a lack of control and the right leg had a bad timing! The other would won the creativity price in the freestyle contest! They show clearly that most people think of chiburi as an actual cleaning of the blade rather than a ritual one(and its a ritual one!). I have seen only one ryu (with a big grain of salt because it was in a book by D. Craig) who cleaned there blades in there own garment(in this case the hakama), the Mugai-Ryu.
Regards

T. ALVAREZ
21st January 2007, 20:04
I can tell you that there is nothing even close to being or looking like Mugai Ryu in this video!

Benkei the Monk
21st January 2007, 21:22
:eek: I think to be quite baffled

sven beulke
22nd January 2007, 05:50
I can tell you that there is nothing even close to being or looking like Mugai Ryu in this video!
Hi Toni!
Thats what i am thinking too! Do the Mugai-ryu wipe there swords in there hakama like shown in Darrel Graigs book?
Best

T. ALVAREZ
22nd January 2007, 06:19
Sven,
Not any of the legit lines that I have seen or am a part of!
When I teach seminars, I tend to make a point about what chiburi really stands for and that it was not meant to really wick blood and stuff off of the blade. Most likely, you would have wipped your blade off on the clothes of the dead guy, not your own!
Anyway, we do not do this in any of the kata or waza that we practice in Meishi Ha Mugai Ryu Iaihyodo.

I hope this helps.

Aloha

sven beulke
22nd January 2007, 12:30
Hi Toni!
Thanks for the answer!

I think to be quite baffled
Hi Luca!
Why?
Best
Sven

Benkei the Monk
22nd January 2007, 14:14
Hi Luca!
Why?
Best
Sven

I think Toni had already given a good answer and I share his opinion. It's difficult to imagine a chiburi that cleans the blade on your own clothes (and also soaks your kimono of the enemy blood).

About the katori chiburi I think your evaluation is good

Fred27
22nd January 2007, 15:32
I think Toni had already given a good answer and I share his opinion. It's difficult to imagine a chiburi that cleans the blade on your own clothes (and also soaks your kimono of the enemy blood).



Heh. I might be opening a can of worms here..but what the hey. While we are speaking of KSR-noto. Yoshio Sugino sensei of TSKR did his own version of KSR-noto which I havent seen done by Otake Risuke sensei. :)

Sugino Sensei clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6FYoGCvBo)

Eric Baluja
22nd January 2007, 16:48
Actually, that first one looks just like a noto from one of the iaijutsu kata in Hontai Yoshin-ryu. The rest...?

Sanppa75
22nd January 2007, 16:57
I have understood that Mugai ryu have yokochiburi in tachi waza, but no chiburi on sitting waza, is that right? I have also heard that chiburi is not about weeping blood away from blade, but cleaning and calming ones mind after sliced up someone.

sven beulke
22nd January 2007, 17:16
Heh. I might be opening a can of worms here..but what the hey. While we are speaking of KSR-noto. Yoshio Sugino sensei of TSKR did his own version of KSR-noto which I havent seen done by Otake Risuke sensei.
Hi Frederik!
Both KSR-noto are very similar! In the Sugino-dojo we rest the katana on the shoulder while doing sayabiki. Otake Sensei uses the ellbow. The result is in both cases a very controlled noto!
Best
Sven

Neil Yamamoto
22nd January 2007, 17:56
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0640769/

Profile for him on IMDB, seems to be the same guy.

Fred27
22nd January 2007, 18:11
Hi Frederik!
Both KSR-noto are very similar! In the Sugino-dojo we rest the katana on the shoulder while doing sayabiki. Otake Sensei uses the ellbow. The result is in both cases a very controlled noto!
Best
Sven

Well thats just the thing, the video I have of Otake Risuke Sensei doing iai doesnt show him actually resting the blade on his elbow as to wipe the "blood" of the mune against his clothes as Sugino Sensei does in the above clip.

At least thats not how I see it in the video I have..Maybe the camera angle makes it hard to spot but I cant see Risuke Sensei actually touching any part of his body (clothing) with his sword, but merely hovering above it unlike Sugino Sensei.

Ice flow
22nd January 2007, 18:22
While browsing a bookstore a while back I distinctly remember seeing a book on Aikido sword work that looks extremely similar to this. It explicitly stated that it borrowed elements (like the chiburi) from TSKSR and MJER among others.

I think it's something along the lines of Aiki-ken. To my recollection the author made no grand claims either and stated it was his own creation for training purposes. I'm not 100% sure since I only read the first bit and I can't recall the title of the book either.

sven beulke
22nd January 2007, 18:42
Well thats just the thing, the video I have of Otake Risuke Sensei doing iai doesnt show him actually resting the blade on his elbow as to wipe the "blood" of the mune against his clothes as Sugino Sensei does in the above clip.
Hi!
No one does noto with a blade spoiled with blood! Good possible that Otake Sensei is hovering the blade. Anyway there are two ways doing it the KSR-way!
Best
Sven

T. ALVAREZ
22nd January 2007, 21:13
Mr. Hyvarinen,
In Meishi Ha Mugai Ryu as well as all of the other Mugai Ryu lines that I have come in contact with in Japan, none of us wipe the blade on our hakama or kimono in reference to cleaning the blade.
To answer your question, there is no Chiburi in the zagi or seiza waza that we do. There is only chiburi in the tachi waza which is very similar in position as MJER, MSR and many other Iai schools. The difference might be the height of where we actually place the sword. The not for advanced students is kissaki noto or the last two to three inches of the sword.
I hope this helps.
In regards to Otake sensei and Sugino sensei’s noto. Though I do not study TSKSR, I have been around it a lot over the years and would be hard pressed to think that either of the versions of noto that these sensei are doing in theory is related to actually cleaning or wiping the sword on their arm or kimono. Then again, I could be totally wrong.
Just my thoughts.
Aloha

Benkei the Monk
22nd January 2007, 21:58
About the Katori chibury I can say that there is any purpose of cleaning the blade into the kimono sleeve. The shoulder (Sugino sensei was quite old when he started to perform the videos you can see on the net) or the elbow control the blade with no intention to clean it .The blood is thrown out by impressing the circular movement and a small hit to the tsuka before the noto.

Earl Hartman
23rd January 2007, 01:13
Oh, come ON.

Jeez Louise. The things people will do to get noticed.

And why wipe off the sword on your own clothes when you presumably have a dead guy's clothes right there just begging to be used?

Anyway, everybody knows that none of the chiburi methods will actually work. They're just a formalized way to end the kata.

T. ALVAREZ
23rd January 2007, 01:16
Earl,
that's pretty much what I said on the first page of the thread!

Earl Hartman
23rd January 2007, 01:21
Yeh, I know.

I just wanted to register my disgust.

I was kinda hoping that he would get the blade orientation wrong on one of those under-the-armpit moves, sever his own artery, and bleed out right there on camera.

Now THAT would have been worth watching.

Dickwad.

T. ALVAREZ
23rd January 2007, 01:25
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I love how great minds think alike!

Earl Hartman
23rd January 2007, 01:28
At your service.

Ron Tisdale
23rd January 2007, 01:36
You guys crack me up! Hey! Just wipe up that blood puddle before you leave...and wipe your feet!

B,
R ;)

Fred27
23rd January 2007, 03:31
Hi!
No one does noto with a blade spoiled with blood!

Well dont take my word for it. Otake Risuke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBox1dnEd4). Kyoso Shigetoshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOhdLtcXyN0)

Brian Owens
23rd January 2007, 07:03
No one does noto with a blade spoiled with blood! Good possible that Otake Sensei is hovering the blade....

Well dont take my word for it. Otake Risuke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBox1dnEd4). Kyoso Shigetoshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOhdLtcXyN0)
Otake Sensei isn't re-sheathing his sword with blood still on it, because there is no blood. Come on, it's a kata.

Also, he isn't resting the sword on his elbow nor his shoulder nor his arm; the mune rides along the web of the hand, and only comes close to the arm without resting on it...as I see it -- YMMV.

Fred27
23rd January 2007, 07:59
Otake Sensei isn't re-sheathing his sword with blood still on it, because there is no blood. Come on, it's a kata.


My mistake. Sugino Sensei's chiburi was a bit different than Risuke Sensei's so I figured the former had modified it with the addition of a wipe on the shoulder to clear the blood of the mune. :)



Also, he isn't resting the sword on his elbow nor his shoulder nor his arm; the mune rides along the web of the hand, and only comes close to the arm without resting on it...as I see it -- YMMV.

My point exactly, it differs from Sugino Sensei's noto.

Sanppa75
23rd January 2007, 09:12
Thank you for your answers Mr. Alvarez. :)

You confirmed many things that I have heard and seen my self. My iai teacher was in Mugai ryu camp here in Finland and he told me that Sato sensei did not do chiburi in seiza waza. He just left the blade for a moment very near (littlebit right, kissaki down from the stopping point?) of the position were the last cut was stopped before noto.

I have seen Mugai ryu only few times. Our Muso Shinden ryu teacher (Takada sensei) showed few Mugai ryu tachi waza kata in embu few years ago. And there really was a chiburi, and that was looking very much of MSR and MJER yokochiburi (If I rightly remember, yokochiburi is from Hayashizaki-Eishin line, and O-chiburi is from Omori ryu in both schools). Main difference that I did see was that in Mugai ryu chiburi was done at the same time when stepping back with left foot(At least in some kata).

Rasmus
23rd January 2007, 11:04
I have seen Mugai ryu only few times. Our Muso Shinden ryu teacher (Takada sensei) showed few Mugai ryu tachi waza kata in embu few years ago.
Is his full name Gakudo Takada? If so he has also, according to various sites online, received menkyo kaiden in mugai-ryu. Can anyone tell what branch he belonged to and who gave it him?

He has, in order, belonged to ZNIR, DNIR and now NIK. I believe he was one of the founding members of tha later. Could it be so that he comes from the group in DNIR headed by Osaichi Konishi-sensei?

Brian Owens
23rd January 2007, 11:15
...Sugino Sensei's chiburi was a bit different than Risuke Sensei's so I figured the former had modified it with the addition of a wipe on the shoulder to clear the blood of the mune...
In looking carefully at the video posted above, as well as other videos and photos of Sugino Sensei, I suspect that there may have been a different reason for the difference. I can't be sure, since I've never met him nor talked to any of his students about it, but in looking at his hands -- and in the above video you can see how his left thumb isn't being positioned exactly as it is normally taught -- it looks to me as though he may have some arthritis or other disability/weakness in his hand that may have necessitated modification of the waza to accommodate a grip problem.

If that is the case, then it was brilliantly done, because only by knowing how it is usually done and noting the difference can one tell that this is not a perfectly "normal" execution; his performance was very smooth and natural.

Fred27
23rd January 2007, 11:47
In looking carefully at the video posted above, as well as other videos and photos of Sugino Sensei, I suspect that there may have been a different reason for the difference. I can't be sure, since I've never met him nor talked to any of his students about it, but in looking at his hands -- and in the above video you can see how his left thumb isn't being positioned exactly as it is normally taught -- it looks to me as though he may have some arthritis or other disability/weakness in his hand that may have necessitated modification of the waza to accommodate a grip problem.

If that is the case, then it was brilliantly done, because only by knowing how it is usually done and noting the difference can one tell that this is not a perfectly "normal" execution; his performance was very smooth and natural.

That actually makes sense. I also noticed that in the chiburi he doesnt actually hit the tsuka but simply places his hand on it as a symbolic hit. Perhaps he couldnt hit it too hard if he had a grip/hand problem. Or of course this whole thing could be one of the modifications Sugino Sensei implemented. But come to think of it, I cant remember ever seeing any clip of Sugino-students doing the type of noto Sugino Sensei did in the above clip...at least none comes to mind.

Sanppa75
23rd January 2007, 11:53
Is his full name Gakudo Takada? If so he has also, according to various sites online, received menkyo kaiden in mugai-ryu. Can anyone tell what branch he belonged to and who gave it him?

He has, in order, belonged to ZNIR, DNIR and now NIK. I believe he was one of the founding members of tha later. Could it be so that he comes from the group in DNIR headed by Osaichi Konishi-sensei?


Yes, the name of our teacher is Gakudo Takada. And Takada sensei has menkyo kaiden in Mugai ryu. He was a direct student of Matsuo Kenpu sensei (atleast Araki ryu practitioners should know that name ;) ). I have been told that Matsuo Kenpu sensei introduced Takada sensei to Mugai ryu´s Nakagawa soke and Hoki ryu´s(Ono-ha Hoki ryu) Ono Kumao sensei. Takada sensei told me personally that Matsuo sensei wanted him to learn other schools after reaching high level in MSR.

some info of Takada sensei:

http://www.iaido.fi/Msr/takada.html

some info of Matsuo sensei:

http://www.iaido.fi/Msr/matsuo.html

Brian Owens
23rd January 2007, 11:59
...I cant remember ever seeing any clip of Sugino-students doing the type of noto Sugino Sensei did in the above clip...at least none comes to mind.
Sven Beulke said above, "In the Sugino-dojo we rest the katana on the shoulder while doing sayabiki." However the reason for making the change may be as I suspect, and then maybe it has been subsequently passed on in the Sugino-ha simply because that's the way Sugino Sensei started doing it.

Just supposition on my part, but it seems logical.

sven beulke
23rd January 2007, 12:44
Sven Beulke said above, "In the Sugino-dojo we rest the katana on the shoulder while doing sayabiki." However the reason for making the change may be as I suspect, and then maybe it has been subsequently passed on in the Sugino-ha simply because that's the way Sugino Sensei started doing it.
Hi All!
I was told that resting the blade on the shoulder has two reasons.
1. absolute control while doing the sayabiki.
2. Because in KSR the sword is gripped gyaku (reverse) during noto , resting it on your shoulder makes it easier to bring it into action again when nessecary.
There is a tachiai-kata called gyaku-nuki- no-tachi which shows exactly how this could be done.The bunkai for this kata is a enemy gripping the tsuka of your sword. The way the sword is brought into action with a makiuchi is exactly how it would be done when the noto would be "disturbed"
The kata starts at 4:25 in this video showing Otake Sensei performing the kata:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn8LqVlHnEw&mode=related&search=
As far as i know Yoshio Sugino has done noto in this way long before Otake Sensei started to train Katori Shinto Ryu! Both had different teachers, that's the simple reason for differences.
Best!

sven beulke
23rd January 2007, 12:52
I Posted the wrong video! Here it comes:KSR omote iaijutsu and tachiai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVBox1dnEd4)

I can't be sure, since I've never met him nor talked to any of his students about it, but in looking at his hands -- and in the above video you can see how his left thumb isn't being positioned exactly as it is normally taught -- it looks to me as though he may have some arthritis or other disability/weakness in his hand that may have necessitated modification of the waza to accommodate a grip problem.
Hi Brian!
I missed that part. This "normal" way of securing the sword with the thumb has also been around in KSR even before Sugino Sensei. There has been diffent teachings in the ryu at least one generation before Sugino and Otake start training!
Best!

Fred27
23rd January 2007, 13:45
Hi Sven..me dunno bout if it was an "original" way of doing it with Sugino's Sensei or not.


Sven Beulke said above, "In the Sugino-dojo we rest the katana on the shoulder while doing sayabiki." However the reason for making the change may be as I suspect, and then maybe it has been subsequently passed on in the Sugino-ha simply because that's the way Sugino Sensei started doing it.

Just supposition on my part, but it seems logical.

That also makes sense and I have a story about that found in Shinto Muso-ryu Jodo and its Sensei Shimizu Takaji.

As I was told, Sensei was fairly short, and when he performed a certain move , (the name escapes me) he would run his staff into the floor due to him being so short. His students, even the very tall ones started copying this "move" since they saw him do it. It took him awhile to realise this and teach his students not to do it.

So if Sugino had some grip problems (again just assuming it was something like that) then he might have adjusted and unwittingly passed it onto his students, either indirect or direct. Thats just more speculation though.

sven beulke
23rd January 2007, 14:48
So if Sugino had some grip problems (again just assuming it was something like that) then he might have adjusted and unwittingly passed it onto his students, either indirect or direct. Thats just more speculation though.
Hi!
Believe me he had no "gripping problems"!
Best

Fred27
23rd January 2007, 19:17
Allright. I meant no disrespect, quite the contrary. Yoshio Sugino Sensei was one of a kind in every positive sense. :)

T. ALVAREZ
23rd January 2007, 20:39
Mr. Hyvarinen,
No worries!
I have heard your teachers name mentioned before and am pretty sure he is linked to Konishi Sensei, but not 100% positive. His being a direct student to Nakagawa soke would lead me to believe that he is close to Konishi sensei in some way. Konishi sensei is a great guy and I enjoy hanging with him while in Japan during our annual taikai. We were having dinner one night at a very old family run restaurant called Toyoda which is over 200 yrs old. The server forgot to open his beer for kompai and I popped open my knife and opened his beer. He then asked for my knife and cut my food for me and Dave Neeley. The three of us LOAO the whole night. He says that the Mugai Ryu that he is doing is the same as Nakagawa sensei was doing towards the end of his career. .

Anyway, the chiburi that you see in MGR has a slight drop of about 4”or so after the cut is stopped makko giri before the chiburi is done. This is tekestuki at your opponent. Same thing for the zagi kata as well. In the tachi waza, we step back in all of them except the Hashiri gakiri of the first 20 kata. The Niden and Okuden kata are different.
Anyway, good luck in your training.
Aloha

SebastianB
24th January 2007, 07:55
Well Sven i believe there was an incident in 1995 concerning Sugino Yoshio's left arm (at least according to one articel on Aikidojournal.com).
But the point is that Sugino Yukihiro continues to practice Noto the way his father did and he certainly knew his Fathers Noto before and after that incident and would have taken note of the change.

sven beulke
24th January 2007, 09:49
Moin Sebastian!
The video posted here was filmed before 1995 i guess. Have to check it but it must been in the late 80s. Could you post al link of the article on aikidojournal.com.
Greetings to Oldenburg!
Sven

Fred27
24th January 2007, 11:19
The Yoshio Sugino clip was from the "Best of friendships demonstrations" made in 86-87-88. Featured a whole bunch of different martial arts and martial artists. Kashima Shinto-ryu, Yagyu Shingan-ryu, Aikido (Iwama, Yoshinkan), Yoseikan Budo Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, Katori Shinto-ryu (among others).

SebastianB
24th January 2007, 11:23
I second your opinion (Sven) on the age of the video but someone else might have brought the whole left arm thing up.

The Link you requested.
The Last Swordsmen (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=3&highlight=sugino)

Edit:
A little bit late

sven beulke
24th January 2007, 12:17
Hi Sebastian!
Wow nice article! I missed this one yet. Its a shame that i am not suscribing this magazin to get the complete article!
Best

Fred27
24th January 2007, 17:02
Its a shame that i am not suscribing this magazin to get the complete article!
Best

Ditto :P Been thinking of joining up a few times. :)

hyaku
30th January 2007, 02:04
As some of the older ryu have no noto and one just moves away to a safe place to clean and resheath a blade. I think it gives way to a lot of free expression

Fred27
30th January 2007, 03:53
As some of the older ryu have no noto and one just moves away to a safe place to clean and resheath a blade. I think it gives way to a lot of free expression

Just out of personal curiosity, do you have any examples of ryu that do this? :). Is this "no-noto"-thing that some Ryu does more like doing Batto or is it still Iai? :)

sven beulke
30th January 2007, 10:17
Is this "no-noto"-thing that some Ryu does more like doing Batto or is it still Iai?
Hi Fred!
Whats the difference? There are many terms for the sword drawing arts and the most popular are batto and iai.Good possible that some ryu or teacher prefer or choose a term they think fits best to there art of sword drawing.
Best

Fred27
30th January 2007, 11:32
I'm not sure this is the proper time for a "whats the difference between battojutsu and iaijutsu"-debate so I withdraw my question. Cant think of a better way to ask the above question right now so I'll let it slide. :p