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neit
31st March 2006, 07:57
just curious as to wether bojutsu specific schools might exist in japan. i know many schools include it in their curriculum but i'd rather put all my limited spare time into one dicsipline. thanks

nate landry
31st March 2006, 08:02
oops i'm "neit". forgot that i had changed my user name.

Nemesis2e
31st March 2006, 21:46
OK i have several questions.

For one, this has been bugging me for a while, does wushu have anything to do with bo staff fighting

Second, is there any school anybody knows about in the centeral texas area that teach combat with a 6' or 7' bo?

-William J. Toohey

Rob Alvelais
1st April 2006, 01:51
You might want to ask in the Ryukyu kobudo forum in E-budo. Lots of Bojutsu practitioners hang out there. However, it's Okinawan bo, for the most part.

Rob

Nemesis2e
1st April 2006, 06:38
Im sorry, but im afraid i do not know any different styles or branches of Bojutsu, if you could please inlighten me or refer meto someone who could....well thats what im supposing thatswhat your recomendation was for, thank you.

Finny
2nd April 2006, 01:59
Chikubujujima Ryu is the only bo - specific ryu I've heard of.

Steve Delaney
2nd April 2006, 03:18
As Finny mentioned, there is Chikubushima-ryu bojutsu (竹生島流棒術 ) and also Muhen-ryu bojutsu (無辺流棒術 ) which is mainly recognised for it's bojutsu, but also teaches naginata & kodachi.

Bojutsu specific ryuha are rather rare, but if you also count jo as a form of bo, you have Shinto Muso-ryu jo (神道夢想流杖 ) & Muhi Muteki-ryu jojutsu (無比無敵流杖術 ) to be counted among them.

nobida
2nd April 2006, 08:32
also yamanni ryu bojutsu in okinawa.

Rob Alvelais
2nd April 2006, 19:00
also yamanni ryu bojutsu in okinawa.

Yo Martin!
Welcome to e-budo.


Walrus. ;)

tgall
3rd April 2006, 21:34
Hello Steve and Finny,


As Finny mentioned, there is Chikubushima-ryu bojutsu (竹生島流棒術 ) and also Muhen-ryu bojutsu (無辺流棒術 ) which is mainly recognised for it's bojutsu, but also teaches naginata & kodachi.

Bojutsu specific ryuha are rather rare, but if you also count jo as a form of bo, you have Shinto Muso-ryu jo (神道夢想流杖 ) & Muhi Muteki-ryu jojutsu (無比無敵流杖術 ) to be counted among them.



are there any infomations about the ryuhas you mention? About Shinto Muso-Ryu i've heard before any Yamanni-Ryu I'm training. But the Other three are totaly new for me.


Sincerly Thomas Mayer-Gall

john sheppard
7th April 2006, 13:59
hello

I have a question concerning the size of B :
do the schools you mentioned use 5 shaku b or 6 shaku b ??

Kamiyama
12th April 2006, 06:36
William,

I work with the rokushakubo as wel as any chobo for Jissen Keiko.. or as you asked.. combat or fighting.

I'm in Dallas Texas..

My Academy weapory outline is based on Kenjutsu, Bojutsu and Shurikenjutsu.

ralph severe, kamiyama

Joel Simmons
14th April 2006, 01:05
Hmmm...I know that many koryu schools have bojutsu taught within their curriculum. In Takeuchi-ryu we have quite a few bo kata. However, as was stated previously by a few people, there aren't many bo specific ryu (as far as my limited knowledge goes).

Re: Wushu & Bojutsu - Wushu is just the Chinese word for "martial art." There are many styles of staff fighting within another billion styles of gongfu out there, however, the way you can generally distinguish a Chinese derived staff art vs. a Japanese derived staff art is by how the person holds the staff. Japanese arts usually hold one end of the staff on the hip or near it with one hand, and place the other hand about half-way up the staff. Chinese derived arts usually hold the staff with both hands creating equal thirds. Most Okinawan styles hold the bo in the Chinese fashion. This was explained to me as a result of who the person holding the staff was fighting against. In China, the greater part of martial artists didn't wield swords, so it was more practical to hold the staff closer in to execute faster "in-fighting" types of techniques. In Japan, you had these macho guys called Samurai running around with shinken which could be pretty nasty if you were on the wrong end of it. So, holding the bo on your hip gives you more reach to execute techniques with your adversary at a further distance, allowing you more time to figure out how to run away.

Your results may vary.

nate landry
14th April 2006, 06:00
most of the chinese staff technique i have seen was either held at one end using the other to strike. or changed between ends by sliding, but still having the rear hand pretty much at the end.

kaji
15th April 2006, 16:46
Hello Neit, I suggest your visit to www.koryu.com to get a list of koryu having bojutsu in its curriculum. Click in articles too to read interesting and valuable information.

Margaret Lo
18th April 2006, 21:30
This was explained to me as a result of who the person holding the staff was fighting against. In China, the greater part of martial artists didn't wield swords, so it was more practical to hold the staff closer in to execute faster "in-fighting" types of techniques. In Japan, you had these macho guys called Samurai running around with shinken which could be pretty nasty if you were on the wrong end of it. So, holding the bo on your hip gives you more reach to execute techniques with your adversary at a further distance, allowing you more time to figure out how to run away.

Your results may vary.

Everybody fought with swords in those days, and Chinese swords were no shorter than Japanese weapons, so I find it hard to give credance to this reasoning.

http://www.zhengwutang.com/chinese/dao/tangdao/dao.htm#photos

M

kokumo
18th April 2006, 21:41
Japanese arts usually hold one end of the staff on the hip or near it with one hand, and place the other hand about half-way up the staff. Chinese derived arts usually hold the staff with both hands creating equal thirds. Most Okinawan styles hold the bo in the Chinese fashion. This was explained to me as a result of who the person holding the staff was fighting against......

M.Lo makes a good point. The distinction in grips has been explained to me as more closely related to the kinds of wood available for bo-fabrication.

Allegedly, while shirokashi (Japanese white oak) is a dense, hard wood that can be finished to a smooth surface, the farther south you go the more likely you are to run into softer woods that are more likely to splinter if you slide your hands along the surface, thus the relatively static one-third grip pattern.

FL

nate landry
19th April 2006, 01:46
^ now that makes sense to me.

cxt
19th April 2006, 21:45
Debatable as to why it would be a factor---you only need so much power to drop a guy after all.

But the "two hands at the end of the bo" grip does allow for a more powerful strike.

The koryu I am familar with (which I admit is a pretty small sample) tend to use/grip the bo, both hands, palms out, on the last 2 feet or shorter of the bo.

Again, don't know "how powerful" a strike would have to be in order to be "effective."

May not have anything to do with it at all.

CEB
19th April 2006, 23:03
Hmmm...I know that many koryu schools have bojutsu taught within their curriculum. In Takeuchi-ryu we have quite a few bo kata. However, as was stated previously by a few people, there aren't many bo specific ryu (as far as my limited knowledge goes).

Re: Wushu & Bojutsu - Wushu is just the Chinese word for "martial art." There are many styles of staff fighting within another billion styles of gongfu out there, however, the way you can generally distinguish a Chinese derived staff art vs. a Japanese derived staff art is by how the person holds the staff. Japanese arts usually hold one end of the staff on the hip or near it with one hand, and place the other hand about half-way up the staff. Chinese derived arts usually hold the staff with both hands creating equal thirds. Most Okinawan styles hold the bo in the Chinese fashion. This was explained to me as a result of who the person holding the staff was fighting against. In China, the greater part of martial artists didn't wield swords, so it was more practical to hold the staff closer in to execute faster "in-fighting" types of techniques. In Japan, you had these macho guys called Samurai running around with shinken which could be pretty nasty if you were on the wrong end of it. So, holding the bo on your hip gives you more reach to execute techniques with your adversary at a further distance, allowing you more time to figure out how to run away.

Your results may vary.

FWIW, this is wrong.

Chinese systems work A LOT of long pole.

The advantage of gripping the staff in even thirds is it teaches the student what his distancing is so when working two man drills he won't take his partner's head off so often.

Okinawa Kobudo works long grip also. Nage uchi is one strike that comes to mind. This is more advanced technique.

Have a good week.

Joel Simmons
22nd April 2006, 01:28
Well, I just relay what I'm taught by people who are in the know, FWIW. For the most part, all the Okinawan kobudo I saw (Shobayashi Shorin-ryu) used a grip dividing it into thirds, there must be a reason for it. Anyone's explanation is as good or better than mine. But I'm no karateka...so...

As for swords being just as long in China as in Japan, I don't doubt that the Chinese figured out the same sword dynamics as the Japanese. However, the Japanese have a fetish with swords and embraced a warrior class far beyond that of the Chinese. It seems to me that you would have had a greater chance of running into someone with a sword in Japan. In China, scholars and statesmen were favored over soldiers and warriors. The vast majority of people running into a scuffle probably didn't have to face off with someone wielding a piece of military equipment like a sword. That's not to say they never did or never had to think of techniques or ways of holding a staff in case it did happen.

I suppose when it comes to debating the nuances behind the source(s) of particular techniques, it's rather futile. Unless you have something on paper from 500 years ago saying "hey...this is why we decided to this..." everyone can take an angle on it.

Anyway, my post was a generalization, as I said. Of course there are always exceptions to generalizations.

:)

sven beulke
24th April 2006, 09:17
M.Lo makes a good point. The distinction in grips has been explained to me as more closely related to the kinds of wood available for bo-fabrication.

Allegedly, while shirokashi (Japanese white oak) is a dense, hard wood that can be finished to a smooth surface, the farther south you go the more likely you are to run into softer woods that are more likely to splinter if you slide your hands along the surface, thus the relatively static one-third grip pattern.

FL
Hi All!
Fred! This makes not much sense to me. Theres is a very simple reason why in(most) koryu the bo is held high at the hips(for example in seigan-no-bo) and sometimes even grip a hand with away form the end. In koryu there a lot of kamae are in hanmi or half-body-position that makes it possible to hold the weapon close to the body. Resting the bo over the hip is neccesary because it must be possible to use the bo and wear a sword(just try it!!)!!! It also gives superior control over the bo. The bo and naginata could generate enormous power because they have a great lever! But this lever works in two directions ! Its easy two loose control over the bo when you grip two close(with the leading hand) to the end. In Katori Shinto Ryu the strikes end with the bo resting on the hip giving maximum control. What will happen if someone using a bo gripping at the far end will strike a swordman and miss or the weapon will be deflected? He`s dead! In Katori Shinto Ryu the bo will be pulled back in sha-no-bo (similar to wakae-kamae with the sword!) leaving the swordman no chance to grip it.
Its not uncommon in koryu to sacrifice one andvantage (reach) to gain a more important(control). Same is true to KSR naginata. There the naginata is hold in the middel sacrificing the reach advantage but gain speed (with both ends of the weapon) and control making possible for the man with the naginata to move his heavy weapon almost at the same speed than a sword!
Kind regards!

sven beulke
24th April 2006, 11:22
Hi All!
(similar to wakae-kamae with the sword!) should mean (similar to waki-kamae with the sword!)
Regards

kokumo
24th April 2006, 16:49
Hi All!
Fred! This makes not much sense to me. Theres is a very simple reason why in(most) koryu the bo is held high at the hips(for example in seigan-no-bo) and sometimes even grip a hand with away form the end. In koryu there a lot of kamae are in hanmi or half-body-position that makes it possible to hold the weapon close to the body. Resting the bo over the hip is neccesary because it must be possible to use the bo and wear a sword(just try it!!)!!! It also gives superior control over the bo. The bo and naginata could generate enormous power because they have a great lever! But this lever works in two directions ! Its easy two loose control over the bo when you grip two close(with the leading hand) to the end. In Katori Shinto Ryu the strikes end with the bo resting on the hip giving maximum control. What will happen if someone using a bo gripping at the far end will strike a swordman and miss or the weapon will be deflected? He`s dead! In Katori Shinto Ryu the bo will be pulled back in sha-no-bo (similar to wakae-kamae with the sword!) leaving the swordman no chance to grip it.
Its not uncommon in koryu to sacrifice one andvantage (reach) to gain a more important(control). Same is true to KSR naginata. There the naginata is hold in the middel sacrificing the reach advantage but gain speed (with both ends of the weapon) and control making possible for the man with the naginata to move his heavy weapon almost at the same speed than a sword!
Kind regards!

Sven:

All of the above is interesting, but all of these questions are entirely distinct from the question of "materiality" of the bo in question and the relationship to a COMPARATIVELY STATIC grip at the center of the bo that has about one-third of the staff between the hands and one third at either end.

The examples you give of KSR pole-arms all include transitional movements in which the bo does slide over the palms. It may be that the explanation I passed along is inaccurate -- I don't know enough about the availability and characteristics of woods in question, or have enough knowledge about the range of Okinawan Bo arts to be sure.

My experience is that Japanese polearm arts (including TSKSR) do have sliding movements, as do some Chinese polearm arts, and what I've seen of Okinawan arts doesn't, but that may be more reflective of what I've seen than of what's out there.

FL

sven beulke
25th April 2006, 14:54
Hi Fred!
Correct! My text is not negating your theory(and i doubt i could :rolleyes: )). So i will try to explain why i think the wood-splinter- theory makes not much sense to me.
1. A bo must withstand enorm stress. A wood that is so brittle that it gets splinters is not the best choice for a bo no matter how you use it! I dont think a weapon like this would gain the popularity the bo has in Okinawa.
2. I am moving on thin ice now but i doubt that Okinawa has no wood that wood make a good bo for sliding usage. As far as i know Shirokashi is not common in southern Japan but they have at least two different sorts of agakashi. Okinawa is not southern japan but the climate is almost the same and maybe also the flora. Of cause this is speculative.
3. The origin of okinawan bo stems not from japan but from the asian continent.
The staff is a very simple weapon in shape but it could be used in many different ways because you have a lot more axis compared to a sword( I experienced this when i started with jodo after five years of aiki-jo-training! Same weapon but i had to start at zero!).Gripping in the middle gives you the possibility to strike fast with both ends without a sliding action! Something that would be impossible when wearing a sword in the belt( its maybe possible but ist to easy to get your sword in the way of the bo.). Thats why(i guess) the bo in japan is used in a diffrent way. I think that the japanese way could produce more power(important when fighting against an amoured opponent), simple because you have a greater lever, but the okinawan method should easily do it for civil-selfdefence.
But hey! Maybe this question could only be anwered by an expert in japanese wood or okinawan bo-jutsu!
Greetings from germany!

CEB
25th April 2006, 14:59
The sliding nuki is used in Okinawa Bo Jutsu. Tokamine no Kun and a version of Tsuken Bo, Choun no Kun etc..... comes to mind as forms that use the sliding nuki. Other Ryukyu Bo forms don't.

nate landry
25th April 2006, 22:06
unfortunatly most of the "bo" i have seen is cheesy twirly forms done in competitions. in which case a one handed grip seems to be used more than either mentioned.

tgall
26th April 2006, 12:11
Hello,

@Kokumo


My experience is that Japanese polearm arts (including TSKSR) do have sliding movements, as do some Chinese polearm arts, and what I've seen of Okinawan arts doesn't, but that may be more reflective of what I've seen than of what's out there.


You' ll also find sliding in Okinawa Bo-Jutsu it is used in Yamanni-Ryu, one of the rare and the difficults style of Bo-Jutsu there.


I had heard an explaination for holding the bo in thirds on a german Yamanni-Ryu seminar and this would fit togethere with Sven guessing: the way for this type of grip was used to teach the civil-people cause it is easier to teach and to controll in bigger groupes.

When Yamanni-Ryu katas are compared with the one of Hozon Shinkokai, you will find they are very similair and connected. The main difference is the grip and the speed in the techniques. In Yamanni-Ryu you use also the size btw. the distance advantage of the weapon that is lost when you fight in thirds holding. An other important point is the way of using kime in the strikes in Ryukyu Kobudo the techniques are done with a strong force focus, where in Yamanni it is a hitting through.
Hitting through without a force focus and sliding gripes are very difficult and to teach that for a person with not much time to learn it is difficult, but when it is reduced to simpler techniques it is easiert to teach and to control the student.

Now it would be intersting to compare the techniques between Yamanni-Ryu and the japaness koryus.

Sincerly

Thomas Mayer-Gall

kokumo
26th April 2006, 15:15
Hello,

@Kokumo



You' ll also find sliding in Okinawa Bo-Jutsu it is used in Yamanni-Ryu, one of the rare and the difficults style of Bo-Jutsu there.


I had heard an explaination for holding the bo in thirds on a german Yamanni-Ryu seminar and this would fit togethere with Sven guessing: the way for this type of grip was used to teach the civil-people cause it is easier to teach and to controll in bigger groupes.



Hello Thomas:

Keep It Safe & Simple, or Keep It Simple, Stupid, aka the KISS principle is pretty basic and universal. On the other hand, part of me wonders whether teaching large groups is a recent development in Okinawa, as elsewhere.

In any case, on the way to looking at explanations which various of us have been given and have passed along, the thread is certainly adding a good bit to available information about Okinawan polearm usage, which is the point, after all.

Thanks for the additional information, to you and the others who have posted!

FL

Mamu_Nestor
24th January 2007, 21:28
Is there such thing as koryu bojitsu?
Are there any koryu bojitsu dojo's in the US?

Thanks

DDATFUS
24th January 2007, 22:31
If you are referring to koryu methods of using the six-foot staff (normally romanized as bojutsu, though jitsu is technically correct), then yes, koryu bojutsu exists. Several koryu schools include bojutsu in their curriculum, including Tenshinsho-Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu, and Toda-ha Buko Ryu, along with many others.

As far as finding it in the US, the three schools that I listed are all represented in the US, I think, as are some other koryu schools that teach bojutsu. Finding a legitimate school, though, won't be easy here.

Finny
24th January 2007, 22:32
Is there such thing as koryu bojitsu?

No, there isn't. That's why we have a "Koryu Bojutsu, Naginata and Sojutsu" Forum.

:rolleyes:

Seriously though, yes and yes.

Mamu_Nestor
25th January 2007, 13:36
Thanks David,

Someone told me about a school called Kobudo Atlanta. They look like they do koryu, but there was no information on the instructor nor the style or lineage. Which leads me to believe that they are mimicking koryu, but don't actually have the lineage.

http://www.kobudoatlanta.com/index.html

DDATFUS
25th January 2007, 14:38
Hmmm... according to their website, this school "draws upon" the teachings of six koryu, namely Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto Ryu Hoppojutsu, Kushin Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Togakure Ryu. Now, unless I am mistaken, all six of those schools are part of the nine-school tradition that makes up Hatsumi's Bujinkan.

Whether or not the Bujinkan arts qualify as koryu is a rather prickly question that has been debated many times on this forum. It is hard to prove that some of the schools, such as Togakure Ryu, existed before the time of Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu. Other schools in the lineage, such as Kukishin Ryu, have a solid, verifiable history and lineage. Kukishin Ryu, by the way, is a koryu school that has, from what I've read, a heavy emphasis on bojutsu.

From what I have heard, the Bujinkan has a different emphasis and feel than many koryu arts, so I would imagine that studying Kukishin Ryu from a Bujinkan instructor would "feel" rather different from studying it under another teacher. However, "different" does not mean "worse."

saru1968
25th January 2007, 16:25
Is there such thing as koryu bojitsu?
Are there any koryu bojitsu dojo's in the US?

Thanks

How about any Koryu Bojutsu, Naginata and Sojutsu in the UK pref around the midlands?

saru1968
25th January 2007, 16:32
Hmmm... according to their website, this school "draws upon" the teachings of six koryu, namely Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto Ryu Hoppojutsu, Kushin Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Togakure Ryu. Now, unless I am mistaken, all six of those schools are part of the nine-school tradition that makes up Hatsumi's Bujinkan.




certainly looks like they had some links with the Bujinkan at some point but no current mention of links. The material 'seems' all bujinkan related in there lesson but doubtful its Koryu at all.

Looking at the links page they 'indicate' they have a relationship with the Dojos listed there, so i think they are independant of everyone.

George Kohler
25th January 2007, 17:05
I think there is a mention of that school somewhere here on E-Budo.

saru1968
25th January 2007, 17:10
I think there is a mention of that school somewhere here on E-Budo.


yep, here...

and NOT good....unless of course it was a misunderstanding....


http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34510&highlight=Kobudo+Atlanta

wmuromoto
25th January 2007, 19:28
In Hawaii, at least, there are a couple of people doing Chikubujima-ryu bojutsu, which is one of the oldest verified martial ryu ever from Japan. They're a legit group. I met the former headmaster, Matsuura sensei, before he passed. His brother was teaching the system and I believe it is still being practiced by a group here.

I also belong to the Takeuchi-ryu group, that does bojutsu as one of the primary forms of weaponry. It's also quite old and supposedly famed (in the past) for its bojutsu, among other things.

The total number of active students in both arts combined here may be about nine or so, probably less than 15.

Anyways,

Wayne Muromoto

Mamu_Nestor
25th January 2007, 21:33
yep, here...

and NOT good....unless of course it was a misunderstanding....


http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34510&highlight=Kobudo+Atlanta

Well it looks like they had a real reason to be secretive and exclusive on their webpage...

I did not see a date on the article. Do you guys know when that was and if he went to jail for it?

Brian Owens
26th January 2007, 04:00
...I did not see a date on the article. Do you guys know when that was and if he went to jail for it?
Here's an article dated 7/8/2006, detailing further charges over and above the child pornogrpahy charges:

http://www.journalinquirer.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=16896971&BRD=985&PAG=461&dept_id=569433&rfi=6

Sanseru
8th February 2007, 01:11
The Matsuura Soke and his son teach out of Omura-shi in Nagasaki-ken. The group is very small, but I was fortunate to train with them for about 2 years when I was still living in Japan. Very old and interesting tradition.

Kindest regards,