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Xenophon456
16th December 2008, 02:00
I heard some of you mention McDojo's. I know what I think the definition of McDojo is and this question may seem stupid or uneducated. But I want to know what your definition is or what the real definition of McDojo is?

john_lord_b3
16th December 2008, 05:40
I never know for "sure" myself. These are some "definitions" of "McDojo" that I have seen or heard in the Net, in E-Budo or in Indonesia my country. WARNING: The following "definitions" are guaranteed to make people angry and 100% NOT my inventions nor my intentions :D :D :D

McDojo is:

1. Any dojo which does not practice free sparring

2. Any dojo which does not practice full-contact MMA

3. Any dojo which does not have complete equipment (mats, gym equipments etc)

4. Any dojo which has complete gym equipments and charge exorbitant fees

5. Any dojo which practices Japanese martial art with non-Japanese founder of the art (huh?)

6. Any dojo which practices "Aiki Ju-Jitsu", "Nin-Jitsu" or anything which ends with "Jitsu" instead of the politically correct and koryu.com approved "Jutsu". :P :)

7. Any dojo whose head sensei does not accept challenge matches or not available for "dojo arashi" (huh?)

8. Any dojo whose head sensei does not compete in full-contact MMA

9. Any dojo which trains children

10. Any dojo which does not charge any fee

11. Any dojo which charges very expensive fee

12. Any dojo which the majority of E-budo people consider as McDojo :D

pS: don't take this too seriously, I'm just joking and please read my sign :D

Simon Keegan
16th December 2008, 08:01
I think by those definitions every Dojo is a McDojo from Gichin Funakoshi to Royce Gracie!

I'll have a Big Mac and fries!

john_lord_b3
16th December 2008, 09:33
Allrighty.. I think the rather more "serious" definition of a McDojo .. "Mc Dojo is -> Any dojo declared as one by the panel of "experts" from these Authorized Internet Martial Arts Forums: koryu.com, bullshido.com and e-budo.com"
:D :D :D :D


(sorry I am still in joking mode :) )

Simon Keegan
16th December 2008, 11:14
I think comparing a certain kind of Dojo to a fastfood outlet was thought of with this comparison in mind:

An organisation that offers something of little substance, packed with additives, aimed at children and operated as a profit-making franchise.

Cheap product, overpriced, garishly marketed.

And frustratingly successful!

Moenstah
16th December 2008, 12:35
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcdojo

and http://www.bullshido.org/McDojo (basically the same text though) give you some ideas. There are no set requirements for a McDojo. Generally you could say that McDojo are more about Egos and/or money, not about martial arts.

Xenophon456
16th December 2008, 16:07
When I first posted this question I felt kind of stupid. I was pretty sure that I knew the answer. But now that I have received feed back I am glad that I posted the question because it is different then what I expected. I had expected the answer to be a chain of Dojo's owned by one person or a Dojo Franchise. Now that I see a difference in the definition I understand why the term is used so often. Thank you

Fred27
16th December 2008, 21:24
If you need further guidance I'm sure we can dig up some YouTube clips of people & groups considered McDojo..Its not pretty though. :D

Andrew S
16th December 2008, 21:30
If you need further guidance I'm sure we can dig up some YouTube clips of people & groups considered McDojo..Its not pretty though. :D

[Cue Luke Skywalker when he finds out Darth Vader is his father voice] "Noooooooooo!

Xenophon456
17th December 2008, 00:37
If you need further guidance I'm sure we can dig up some YouTube clips of people & groups considered McDojo..Its not pretty though. :D
I don't need further guidance but I would love a good laugh.:laugh:

john_lord_b3
17th December 2008, 06:03
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcdojo

and http://www.bullshido.org/McDojo (basically the same text though) give you some ideas. There are no set requirements for a McDojo. Generally you could say that McDojo are more about Egos and/or money, not about martial arts.


ah, interesting. So, apparently the catagory of no MMA-style sparring and no-accepting challenge matches are no longer defined as Bullshido and/or McDojo. Now I can with some confidence say that my Wado-ryu Karate & Jujutsu Dojo, which does not practice MMA-style sparring and does not accept challenge matches, are no longer considered as bullshido and McDojo. :D

john_lord_b3
17th December 2008, 06:16
http://www.international-atemijujitsu.co.uk/bullshido.html

another good definition of bullshido here :)

Andrew S
17th December 2008, 06:25
ah, interesting. So, apparently the catagory of no MMA-style sparring and no-accepting challenge matches are no longer defined as Bullshido and/or McDojo. Now I can with some confidence say that my Wado-ryu Karate & Jujutsu Dojo, which does not practice MMA-style sparring and does not accept challenge matches, are no longer considered as bullshido and McDojo. :D

For the sake of brevity, I will summarise the basic arguments of the MMA crowd:

"The Gracies blah blah, realistic training blah blah UFC blah cage fighting blah traditional stuff is nonsense blah blah Aikido doesn't work blah blah tap out blah blah real fighting blah blah uber!"

john_lord_b3
17th December 2008, 08:18
For the sake of brevity, I will summarise the basic arguments of the MMA crowd:

"The Gracies blah blah, realistic training blah blah UFC blah cage fighting blah traditional stuff is nonsense blah blah Aikido doesn't work blah blah tap out blah blah real fighting blah blah uber!"

My sincere gratitude Andrew san, for eloquently summarize the often-repeated opinion of (many of) our MMA brothers and sisters ;)

bu-kusa
17th December 2008, 12:47
For the sake of brevity, I will summarise the basic arguments of the MMA crowd:

"The Gracies blah blah, realistic training blah blah UFC blah cage fighting blah traditional stuff is nonsense blah blah Aikido doesn't work blah blah tap out blah blah real fighting blah blah uber!"

So if an Aikidoka techniques won a MMA match by ''tapout'' you wouldnt be interested then?

Simon Keegan
17th December 2008, 13:10
It's all about function isn't it...

If you want to make someone in a cage tap, then MMA is a good 'art' to learn

If you want to shoot someone with arrows then Kyudo is a good art to learn

If you want self defence, Jujutsu, Karate Jutsu or Aikijujutsu etc are good arts to learn

If you want to win a Taekwondo match, Taekwondo is a good art to learn.

Aikido isn't better than MMA and MMA isn't better than Aikido.

Sometimes a self defence art will work in a sporting contest, and sometimes a sport art will work in a self defence situation.

Moenstah
17th December 2008, 13:25
So if an Aikidoka techniques won a MMA match by ''tapout'' you wouldnt be interested then?

Purely hypothetical, you and I know that someone using aikido, or: having primarily trained in aikido, wouldn't win a MMA bout, although there are some locks in aikido that are used in MMA fights.

Josh Reyer
17th December 2008, 13:45
The most awesome thing about aikido is that it can be all things to all people.

The absolute worst thing about aikido is that it tries to be all things to all people.

cxt
17th December 2008, 16:54
My opinion...which is of course ALWAYS subject to correction and re-evaluation....is that a "McDojo" is place that prioritizes commerce OVER imparting skill to its students.

Poor business model IMO anyway.

Xenophon456
17th December 2008, 18:45
For the sake of brevity, I will summarise the basic arguments of the MMA crowd:

"The Gracies blah blah, realistic training blah blah UFC blah cage fighting blah traditional stuff is nonsense blah blah Aikido doesn't work blah blah tap out blah blah real fighting blah blah uber!"

Now that is classic, LMFAO:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

bu-kusa
17th December 2008, 18:50
Purely hypothetical, you and I know that someone using aikido, or: having primarily trained in aikido, wouldn't win a MMA bout, although there are some locks in aikido that are used in MMA fights.

I was using the point to illistrate how comments like that, may of come from faulty logic. Besides since were on a karate forum, I think Lyoto Machida to be a fine example of traditional Karate skills applied to the MMA setting. Im pretty sure he can handle himself on the 'deadly street' too

edit - I just found this too

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09n5lIMk

Andrew S
17th December 2008, 19:05
So if an Aikidoka techniques won a MMA match by ''tapout'' you wouldnt be interested then?
Not particularly. The Aikido part was inserted because it is one of the arts the MMA crowd misunderstands the most and loves to slag off in direct proportion to their level of misunderstanding.

My opinion...which is of course ALWAYS subject to correction and re-evaluation....is that a "McDojo" is place that prioritizes commerce OVER imparting skill to its students.

Poor business model IMO anyway.
Unfortunately, there's a sucker born every minute. Plus, humans are, by nature, lazy. We want the goodies without having to work for them. In some ways, catering for the ignorant and lazy IS good business practice.

bu-kusa
17th December 2008, 19:17
Not particularly. The Aikido part was inserted because it is one of the arts the MMA crowd misunderstands the most and loves to slag off in direct proportion to their level of misunderstanding.


Ive got quite a few friends who train and fight under MMA rules, and ive never heard them 'slag off' any arts, only training regimes, and then mostly because they themselves have trained in those themselves and understand the limitation of their own previous training.

As an example what do you think of Lyoto Machida and his application of Shotokan principles into MMA?

Moenstah
17th December 2008, 19:22
I was using the point to illistrate how comments like that, may of come from faulty logic. Besides since were on a karate forum, I think Lyoto Machida to be a fine example of traditional Karate skills applied to the MMA setting. Im pretty sure he can handle himself on the 'deadly street' too

edit - I just found this too

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09n5lIMk

The vid 'proves' what I have stated already: that there are some shared techniques. The 'traditional martial artist' you mention is a 'striker' (karateka) not an aikidoka. How come? :up:

And what do you mean exactly when you say 'faulty logic' ?

Andrew S
17th December 2008, 20:11
Ive got quite a few friends who train and fight under MMA rules, and ive never heard them 'slag off' any arts, only training regimes, and then mostly because they themselves have trained in those themselves and understand the limitation of their own previous training.
Sorry, I should have made myself clear. I was jokingly refering to a number of protein-guzzling keyboard warriors and trolls who post on traditional martial arts sites and forums, saying how it is all a waste of time and will never work in a real-life situation. (And, for some reason, a "real-life situation" always involves one-on-one in a well-lit ring, with no weapons and a referee)

As an example what do you think of Lyoto Machida and his application of Shotokan principles into MMA?
I know nothing about Lyoto Machida, so I have no opinion.
Application of Shotokan principles? It just demonstrates something I've always suspected - certain individuals can use techniques effectively, and there are no superior arts, just superior people.

john_lord_b3
18th December 2008, 04:41
It's all about function isn't it...

If you want to make someone in a cage tap, then MMA is a good 'art' to learn

If you want to shoot someone with arrows then Kyudo is a good art to learn

If you want self defence, Jujutsu, Karate Jutsu or Aikijujutsu etc are good arts to learn

If you want to win a Taekwondo match, Taekwondo is a good art to learn.

Aikido isn't better than MMA and MMA isn't better than Aikido.

Sometimes a self defence art will work in a sporting contest, and sometimes a sport art will work in a self defence situation.

Excellent review, Simon san!

I guess I should add, you want to make money, take professional boxing and professional wrestling :) I am VERY sure there are no such things as McBoxingGym and McProwrestlingGym :)

john_lord_b3
18th December 2008, 04:53
Not particularly. The Aikido part was inserted because it is one of the arts the MMA crowd misunderstands the most and loves to slag off in direct proportion to their level of misunderstanding.

Unfortunately, there's a sucker born every minute. Plus, humans are, by nature, lazy. We want the goodies without having to work for them. In some ways, catering for the ignorant and lazy IS good business practice.

Very wise words Andrew san. Is there an Andrew fans club around here? I'd like to join :D

bu-kusa
18th December 2008, 08:35
Sorry, I should have made myself clear. I was jokingly refering to a number of protein-guzzling keyboard warriors and trolls who post on traditional martial arts sites and forums, saying how it is all a waste of time and will never work in a real-life situation. (And, for some reason, a "real-life situation" always involves one-on-one in a well-lit ring, with no weapons and a referee)

I know nothing about Lyoto Machida, so I have no opinion.
Application of Shotokan principles? It just demonstrates something I've always suspected - certain individuals can use techniques effectively, and there are no superior arts, just superior people.

Thank you, I agree, however I would say a least half of his ability is due to a superior focused training regime, arts as such dont matter half as much as the training an individual goes through daily in the dojo / gym / barra.

bu-kusa
18th December 2008, 08:39
The vid 'proves' what I have stated already: that there are some shared techniques. The 'traditional martial artist' you mention is a 'striker' (karateka) not an aikidoka. How come? :up:

And what do you mean exactly when you say 'faulty logic' ?

I used Lyoto Machida as an example, because he was a prime example that over generalizations about peoples abilities based on art (as opposed to training regime, which I belive in the case of Lyoto Machida includes a dan grade in BJJ and much Muey Thai training) not being a overly useful indicator of ability Also this is a karate forum, not an aikido one.

bu-kusa
18th December 2008, 08:59
Also by faulty logic, I meant generalising what the MMA community (if there is one, I dont know because I dont train in MMA) belive from reading what internet trolls like post, in order to 'wind up' traditional martial artists.

I think disparaging comments about others drag us (the traditional martial arts) down, and it often looks like sour grapes, to the uninformed reader.

Andrew S
18th December 2008, 19:31
Very wise words Andrew san. Is there an Andrew fans club around here? I'd like to join :D

We could form one, taking care to ensure it doesn't devolve into a McFan Club. :D

john_lord_b3
19th December 2008, 04:54
all joking aside, perhaps we could have formulate the definition more clearly if we could describe the component parts which makes a Karate Dojo McDojo.

CXT summed it very nicely here:



My opinion...which is of course ALWAYS subject to correction and re-evaluation....is that a "McDojo" is place that prioritizes commerce OVER imparting skill to its students.


Anyway, do we differentiate between McDojo and FraudDojo? Is all McDojo has to be Frauds, and is all Frauds has to be McDojo?

john_lord_b3
19th December 2008, 05:14
ops double post, prince san please delete this one. Thank you

Andrew S
19th December 2008, 12:22
Anyway, do we differentiate between McDojo and FraudDojo? Is all McDojo has to be Frauds, and is all Frauds has to be McDojo?

I don't think that all McDojos are "fraud" in the sense that many of them actually believe that they are "the real thing", or have produced different value systems, so that the black belt has suffered devaluation. They may not be actually aware of their lack of quality in some areas, so they are not knowingly defrauding the public.

Conversely, a dojo that trains hard but makes claims which are not true and are known not to be true is guilty of fraud.

DDATFUS
19th December 2008, 15:30
Just to throw out another element, I think one key part of a McDojo is the uniformity. When we think of McDonalds, we know that each McDonalds is serving pretty much the same thing. If you go to Russia or China and visit a McDonalds there you can expect to find a couple of different items on the menu, but more than 90% of it would be exactly what you can find at any other McDonalds in the world. That's what McDonalds often stands for: the quality of the food is pretty consistent (in the minds of some, consistently tasteless) and the food on offer is uniform at thousands of different branches.

At a McDojo, whether the school calls itself Dojo of the Tiger (Tiger of the Dojo?) or Jake Smith Combat Karate, you'll find pretty much the same stuff on the curriculum: the type of watered-down karate that you would expect of a 10th-degree blackbelt whose highest rank in a style that he didn't invent was greenbelt in Shotokan. Compare a video of the eight-year-olds from Swooping Eagle Kung Fu and a video of the second graders of Black Dragon Ultra Karate and only the patches on their uniforms will allow you to tell them apart.

I think the sad thing about a lot of these McDojo is that no one there-- the instructors included-- have any idea what they are missing. They honestly believe that all martial arts systems are like them. Because they've never experienced anything else, they think that they are really performing excellent martial arts. And those trophies that their eight-year-olds bring back from some local McDojo competition reinforces that. And I guess that there's no harm in that, if you just want a fun after-school activity for the kids. Still, it makes me a bit sad when I think about how shallow the fare at the average McDojo is compared to the rewarding depth of the arts that I've been fortunate enough to study.

BlackPaladin
21st December 2008, 18:31
Dangers of the McDojo:

Look at the video, then read the rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unOmuQKTsxk




He is writing a memoir about his interesting 1-fight career as a heavyweight prizefighter.

This guy trained only 3 days as a boxer for the fight, BUT

he told me he had 8 years TKD, and several years in kung fu, aikido, iaido, and jui-jitsu.

I would say that he has "disgraced the Shaolin temple." No martial training that is worth a damn would leave him with nothing ingrained after all that time. He didn't look like a martial artist who tried boxing. He looked like some regular old guy off the street who tried boxing.

To his credit, he wasn't "scurrred." He showed heart to get in there.

McDojo victim.

Tom
8th January 2009, 03:59
Hi Andrew,

"The Gracies blah blah, realistic training blah blah UFC blah cage fighting blah traditional stuff is nonsense blah blah Aikido doesn't work blah blah tap out blah blah real fighting blah blah uber!"
Hi Andrew,

So sparring and realistic training is bad ?

john_lord_b3
8th January 2009, 06:29
I certainly have no rights to speak on behalf of Andrew, but as a member of Andrew fans club, I think what he meant was that sparring and realistic training is not bad at all, but bad-mouthing aikido and other traditional stuff is.

Andrew san, If I am wrong, I will do 10 push-ups as fitting punishment :D Oops make it 20 :D :D

Moenstah
8th January 2009, 08:57
Dangers of the McDojo:

Look at the video, then read the rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unOmuQKTsxk




He is writing a memoir about his interesting 1-fight career as a heavyweight prizefighter.

This guy trained only 3 days as a boxer for the fight, BUT

he told me he had 8 years TKD, and several years in kung fu, aikido, iaido, and jui-jitsu.

I would say that he has "disgraced the Shaolin temple." No martial training that is worth a damn would leave him with nothing ingrained after all that time. He didn't look like a martial artist who tried boxing. He looked like some regular old guy off the street who tried boxing.

To his credit, he wasn't "scurrred." He showed heart to get in there.

McDojo victim.

The only McDojo thing I've seen thus far, is a trainer who lets someone fight after only three days of training, that is downright insane and irresponsible.

The biggest fool however, is the boxer himself. Why decide fighting a match under a ruleset you're completely unfamiliar with? That's begging to get knocked out.

BlackPaladin
8th January 2009, 15:39
The only McDojo thing I've seen thus far, is a trainer who lets someone fight after only three days of training, that is downright insane and irresponsible.

The biggest fool however, is the boxer himself. Why decide fighting a match under a ruleset you're completely unfamiliar with? That's begging to get knocked out.

I am concentrating more on what I know about the guy. After all of that training in several martial disciplines, he appears to be no better off than a random Joe Six-pack chosen off the street.

Moenstah
8th January 2009, 17:06
I am concentrating more on what I know about the guy. After all of that training in several martial disciplines, he appears to be no better off than a random Joe Six-pack chosen off the street.

not so strange, as all of those have very different rulesets, or are downright useless in a boxing match.

Andrew S
8th January 2009, 19:26
So sparring and realistic training is bad ?
Hi Tom. Thanks for asking. See Ben's quote below.

I certainly have no rights to speak on behalf of Andrew, but as a member of Andrew fans club, I think what he meant was that sparring and realistic training is not bad at all, but bad-mouthing aikido and other traditional stuff is.

Thanks, Ben. You pretty much summed up most of my feelings on the subject.

Sparring and realistic training (and the two may not always go hand-in-hand) are in and of themselves good things. So are: training for humility and peace, self control, courtesy, etc., none of which are any good in "a real fight" (but may help prevent a real fight)
One of the points I was trying to make through sarcasm is that the cage fight represents only one perspective of combat realism. (I have never been in a combat situation, but I'm pretty sure that no street fight has an arena and referee)
The MMA have a lot to offer, but they don't hold all the cards.

Just my opinion. Feel free to cut me down.

Tom
10th January 2009, 05:40
Andrew, Ben, All.

This debate really touches on one of this era's biggest themes in the martial arts: the roaring debate between TMA vs post-UFC-'93 MMA, BJJ, & other ring-oriented arts.

Bad form to slag off other arts, fair enough. I think, though, many of those bitter MMA people may be "refugees" from arts like Karate or Tae Kwon Do and feel conned. Eddie Bravo, the innovative BJJ teacher, describes a typical experience in his book, "Mastering the Rubber Guard," where he started at what sounds like a McDojo.

I like to think of violence as a continuum. The continuum might start from very mild, say, being jostled in a queue or having someone angrily jab a finger in the face, ranging to moderate, such as shoving and pushing between fans at a football match. Finally, there's extreme, like, fighting off a homicidal maniac. In Australia, we have a roadside bushfire warning gauge, that goes from green (no danger), to yellow (mild), to orange and red, which means a bushfire. I think of violence in the same way.

Each art tends to come into its own at one of the ranges of the continuum. Krav Maga, for example, tends to focus on the homicidal maniac range. Obviously it'd be very inappropriate to hammer the face of your best friend with knee strikes for being sleazy whilst drunk. Aikido's good in the moderate range. For more extreme stuff, I'm sorry folks. I'm with those who just don't think it works.

(The only move I've ever used on the "street" by the way, was an aikido wrist-grab break -- perfect because the police man illegally grabbing me didn't think I was resisting as I slipped out of his grip).

I like JuJutsu in its different forms, Judo, BJJ, Japanese Jiu Jitsu, because I think it's very expansive across the ranges. But if you want it to be functional, it has to be trained that way.

That's my criticism of alot of traditional teachers. They often leave the question of combat effectiveness vague, not telling their students, as the Shaolin Monks now do, "we can't really fight."

I think the biggest problem with functionality and realism is the physical environment. Yes, it's true, real fights don't have referees, clean surfaces and cages. There might be broken glass, jagged rocks, or snow-covered stairs. In the last nasty encounter I had, I was carrying this MacBook, frankly, I'd prefer to get punched than damage it. Tony Blauer talks about the problems of sports-training, even with MMA people, in that there are a few split seconds when they "give themselves permission to be violent."

I'm going to stir the pot a bit with an opinion.

Just as there's a continuum of violence, there's a continuum of realism and functionality. MMA cage training and grappling on gym-mats is certainly not the street. But in terms of learning to fight, it sure beats, static two-person kata with no resistance.

But then again, the real threat to most of us in big cities in times of non war are forces like stress, job battles, boredom, for some meaninglessness and depression. For these bigger things, the TMA, do a great job. And as someone pointed out, humility and patience can help avoid a fight, thus winning it before it happened, as the great Sun Tzu advised us. :-)

Wonderful training to you all in whatever your chosen discipline is.

Tom
10th January 2009, 05:49
p.s. --

Just to define TMA, or traditional martial arts, probably too wide a category. For this discussion, I'd lump Aikido, many non-sparring forms of Karate, traditional Jujutsu, many forms of kung fu, etc. You get the picture.

Nothing against the above arts, by the way. I'm a big fan of Iain Abernethy, the British Karate teacher, who has a fascinating approach of reviving what he says was the original combat focus of Karate, through reinterpreting Kata. Is it "traditional", "modern", art, sport, or self-defense, oriented. I'd say all.

Andrew S
10th January 2009, 06:14
Thanks for your post, Tom. Looks like we are much more alike than I originally thought. :toast:

Tom
10th January 2009, 07:28
Oh, Andrew, just an afterthought.

Here's another problem with slagging off other arts. It breeds, I think, narrow mindedness and egotism, which are both a big handicap in progress in many endeavours in life, especially sparring arts. A narrow mind and a big ego can paralyze growth.

Narrow mindedness will shut you off to new technical possibilities, even if you're a Muay Thai or BJJ fanatic and only want to compete. A massive handicap when combined with Ego. I'm not even talking about being openly arrogant -- maybe even just privately, quietly protecting your ego.

The Ego can make you:

* Dangerous to yourself and others
* Unwilling to take risks and tryout new things (for fear of failure).
* A bully
* A pain to do randori with.
* Slow down the reception of information.

It was a bit of a breakthrough for me when one experienced wrestling, boxing, and BJJ coach said, more or less, training for humility was important to technical progress. He was talking all Yoga like.

Check your Ego at the door. It's something most people will have to work on forever.

For me, the sparring throws up a personal challenge nearly every time I get on the mat. It's like a Zen mirror. And most of the benefits come off the mat, in the battle of daily life. But for me, it's the intensity and challenge of getting thrown, or choked, or tapped, or whatever, that brings out those lessons.

I'll pass on the full-contact boxing or Muay Thai, tho at a lower intensity. They're a key part of the equation as well.

But really, it's the battle of life that is most relevant to most martial arts pilgrims. We live at a wonderful time when people have a much wider choice of training protocol, be it, five-animal kung fu, or origami.

Whatever keeps you training.

john_lord_b3
13th January 2009, 13:08
..MMA cage training and grappling on gym-mats is certainly not the street. But in terms of learning to fight, it sure beats, static two-person kata with no resistance..

Yup, very true, without a doubt!

That's why, Aikikai Aikido and traditional Jujutsu are not best choices for the military.

As a jujutsuka, I have to say, that the closest to free randori that we have in traditional Jujutsu is something called "goshin jutsu ohyo" where Uke attacks Tori in a non-predetermined way, and the attack is real powerful (no punch pulled, no kicks retracted, all holds are full force). The attack are all single-attack just like in Kata practice, but done without choreography.

still, the Tori have react properly, or else he/she will got punched or kicked for real. Usually this kind of training is done after the students has completed the 1st series of Katas. This is what later evolved into the "Duo System Competition" in modern-day JJIF Sport Jujitsu competitions.

In Funakoshi sensei's early Shotokan Dojo (the Gigo era), there was a "Jiyu Ippon Kumite", a kind of one-step sparring but with full power kicks and punches.

Are they still practiced these days Andrew san? Or have it became fully evolved into Jiyu Kumite and forgotten?

Anyway, the weakness of the 2-person Kata is obvious, but then again, 2-person Kata is just a method to learn the entire syllabus of the art. It is not sacred and infallible, it can be complemented with other training methods. A good instructor should be able to teach the syllabus and find a way to increase the effectiveness of the students without sacrificing the art by turning it into something else which isn't it. That's why I personally admire Tomiki Aikido with their balanced system between Koryu no Kata and Aiki Randori. They even have competitions in Randori, which is very interesting.

If there is a Tomiki Aikido dojo in Jakarta, and the instructor is a good one, I will enroll and happily restart as a Mudansha!

john_lord_b3
13th January 2009, 13:26
Thanks, Ben. You pretty much summed up most of my feelings on the subject.


Good, so I don't have to do that 20 pushups :D :D

Trevor Johnson
13th January 2009, 15:54
In Funakoshi sensei's early Shotokan Dojo (the Gigo era), there was a "Jiyu Ippon Kumite", a kind of one-step sparring but with full power kicks and punches.

Are they still practiced these days Andrew san? Or have it became fully evolved into Jiyu Kumite and forgotten?


Sorry to butt in, but I thought I'd point out that it depends on the instructor. Mine, when you're a junior, not really. As you get more able to handle it, yup. One-step sparring with unpredictable attacks is something I've definitely done in class.
I've also done that in a demonstration, though that was more by accident. The person I was working with had forgotten the sequence of attacks we were demonstrating! :D I still managed to take him down in a controlled manner.

Andrew S
13th January 2009, 19:39
MMA cage training and grappling on gym-mats is certainly not the street. But in terms of learning to fight, it sure beats, static two-person kata with no resistance.

Indeed. I'm of the opinion that kata training should evolve. I've done some aikido kumitachi (essentially a paired sword kata) with some very senior people and found it quite scary. The attacks came in fast and hard - not static. Also, if my kamae was wrong, I could expect a stab NOT found in the kata sequence - again, not static, and not non-resisting.

I haven't been able to do much in the way of karate in the last couple of years. Our dojo does occasionally engage in jiyu ippon, but with the attacks designated. We've also done okuri ippon kumite, in which there is a second attack, and similar drills. Again, the experience can be quite scary, since the second attack is usually not designated, and you need to keep extra-alert.

john_lord_b3
14th January 2009, 04:57
Sorry to butt in, but I thought I'd point out that it depends on the instructor. Mine, when you're a junior, not really. As you get more able to handle it, yup. One-step sparring with unpredictable attacks is something I've definitely done in class.

We do that a lot in Wado-ryu, but only done by the students who had completed the 10-set Yakusoku Kumitegata series. For some reasons, 5th & 4th Kyus are allowed to do Jiyu Kumite (non contact) before they do the Jiyu Ippon! So the Jiyu Ippon is considered more advanced!



I've also done that in a demonstration, though that was more by accident. The person I was working with had forgotten the sequence of attacks we were demonstrating! :D I still managed to take him down in a controlled manner.

Whoa.. happens all the time! :) That's why rehearsing before demo is important!

john_lord_b3
14th January 2009, 05:07
Indeed. I'm of the opinion that kata training should evolve. I've done some aikido kumitachi (essentially a paired sword kata) with some very senior people and found it quite scary.

I won't do that! I hate sharp pointy things! Where is their sense of safety? Paired Kata with sword is OK, but semi-sparring with sword? Not Ok!



We've also done okuri ippon kumite, in which there is a second attack, and similar drills. Again, the experience can be quite scary, since the second attack is usually not designated, and you need to keep extra-alert.

Yes, we have it too, it's the two-step sparring. We also have sanbon kumite, the three-step sparring. It's nice to know that there are still similarities between Shotokan and Wado-ryu training methods, despite our parting of ways in 1934.

Trevor Johnson
14th January 2009, 19:47
Whoa.. happens all the time! :) That's why rehearsing before demo is important!

We had rehearsed, copiously. He was my senior, think he was just having a "senior moment!"

And I think the sword kata from the above post was done with bokken, yes? Much safer, for you and the sword.

Andrew S
14th January 2009, 19:50
I won't do that! I hate sharp pointy things! Where is their sense of safety? Paired Kata with sword is OK, but semi-sparring with sword? Not Ok!

Sorry, my bad. I didn't explain it clearly enough. Kumitachi is the name for what is essentially a paired kata - we just don't call it kata. It is NOT sparring. The same applies to kumijo, which is essentially paired jo kata.
My point was about static, lifeless paired kata vs. kata with intent - think yakusoku kumite with full-power attacks aimed just short of target - you know (hope) you won't get hit if your block is off, but it is a scary feeling, right?

(And sensei would get very upset if someone got hurt during practice)

Maybe the moderators should split this thread as it has drifted away from McDojos to training methods.

john_lord_b3
15th January 2009, 04:41
thank you for the clarification regarding kumi-tachi, Andrew san :D

And I agree that this thread should be split into a new one. Maybe one titled "Non Mc-Dojo Training Methods" :)

What do you think, Prince san? (Mr. Moderator)

Prince Loeffler
15th January 2009, 14:13
thank you for the clarification regarding kumi-tachi, Andrew san :D

And I agree that this thread should be split into a new one. Maybe one titled "Non Mc-Dojo Training Methods" :)

What do you think, Prince san? (Mr. Moderator)

Will take matter under consideration. Thanks !

powerof0ne
24th January 2009, 04:11
I know this thread turned more into a what a mcdojo isn't but the bottom line for me across the board determining what a mcdojo is..is when a black belt just really sux. I know I'm over-simplifying it here but the average person that's trained a couple of years knows when a black belt is crap or isn't.
I don't expect a shodan to be the next Anderson Silva, Fumio Demura, Rodrigo Gracie, Francisco Filho, etc. I expect a shodan to be able to do a damn front stance right and maybe have a half decent mae geri and jodan tsuki, though.

bu-kusa
24th January 2009, 11:54
Personally I think a shodan should have a good grasp of their chosen basics, and they should also have a grasp of their own strenghs and weaknesses in the wider scheme of things. Some humility is good for the learning process too.