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Richard Scardina
29th December 2008, 11:45
Given the varying definitions of martial art, could firearms be a martial art weapon needing the same diciplines as un-armed/traditional martial arts?

Juan Perez
29th December 2008, 14:27
Given the varying definitions of martial art, could firearms be a martial art weapon needing the same diciplines as un-armed/traditional martial arts?

This is going to be another one of those long threads. But, maybe it does not have to be. Your answer is in your question. Given the varying definitions of "martial art", yes, [proper] firearms [use] "could" be a martial art needing the same disciplines as unarmed/traditional martial arts. Or, a firearm could be considered a martial arts weapon. I guess the length of the discussion to follow might focus on "should" it be considered that way. In the case of most of my fellow work mates, firearms are a tool. We don't treat it as our "soul" or something like that (as a nihon-to might be treated, I guess).

Richard Scardina
29th December 2008, 19:02
Though a thread may seem as
one of those long threads", it, like any other, is a rhetorical exchange of what a forum is for.

Martial arts, as with its string of ancroynms, terminology, etc., seem to create curiousity and discussion of many sorts.

Duanew
29th December 2008, 19:18
I think if you look into history the Japanese did in fact make it a martial art. I know Jeff Hall has devised a martial art around the pistol.

Duane

Duanew
29th December 2008, 19:20
Here is the article:
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/articles/1759789-P1-Exclusive-Hojutsu-Ryu-the-martial-art-of-shooting/

Duane Wolfe

George Kohler
29th December 2008, 20:07
I don't like the term "art" especially when referring to modern military disciplines. IMO it should be referred as martial (or military) "techniques."

Juan Perez
29th December 2008, 21:26
Though a thread may seem as
one of those long threads", it, like any other, is a rhetorical exchange of what a forum is for.

Martial arts, as with its string of ancroynms, terminology, etc., seem to create curiousity and discussion of many sorts.

It does indeed seem to create curiosity in some. I hope you find your answers in this thread then.

DDATFUS
29th December 2008, 22:49
I don't like the term "art" especially when referring to modern military disciplines. IMO it should be referred as martial (or military) "techniques."

A hoplologist that I know described what the bushi practiced in the 1400's and 1500's as "martial training" or "martial disciplines" and described what those same arts became in the peaceful 1600-1800's as "martial arts." Based on that, I would label modern military and police training as a martial practice/training/discipline, but would consider referring to other gun-based activities as martial arts. I've seen some competitive shooting events, for example, that seem to have a large following but not to be directly linked to any military/police application. Folks who train with guns with the specific goal of excelling at those competitions rather than with the specific goal of using the gun for combat might have some interesting parallels with the practitioners of certain martial arts that have a meditative or sporting rather than combative focus.

Richard Scardina
30th December 2008, 04:09
A hoplologist that I know described what the bushi practiced in the 1400's and 1500's as "martial training" or "martial disciplines" and described what those same arts became in the peaceful 1600-1800's as "martial arts." Based on that, I would label modern military and police training as a martial practice/training/discipline, but would consider referring to other gun-based activities as martial arts. I've seen some competitive shooting events, for example, that seem to have a large following but not to be directly linked to any military/police application. Folks who train with guns with the specific goal of excelling at those competitions rather than with the specific goal of using the gun for combat might have some interesting parallels with the practitioners of certain martial arts that have a meditative or sporting rather than combative focus.

Hmmmn, but many other virtues of martial arts are not restricted to etuher way.

Juan Perez
30th December 2008, 06:02
Hmmmn, but many other virtues of martial arts are not restricted to etuher way.

Sir, what is your personal opinion on this matter? I'm referring to the original premise of your question that initiated this thread.

Richard Scardina
30th December 2008, 06:17
Well, to some, firearms is a modern implement wheras it did have martial art relation via one particualr Samurai period.

I would have to say that anything given the discipline study of defense could almost be a martial art.

Bod
2nd January 2009, 12:12
This is not so different from the "Is snooker/billiards a sport or a game?" debate.

Snooker needs a certain amount of physical skill, but a lot of that skill is quite refined rather than energetic, like football say.

Games generally need little gross physical ability whereas sports do.

Some shooting "arts" such as the cross country skiing and shooting sport, involve more physical activity than others. Is that more like a martial art than shooting in a range? You might have to argue that it isn't since the sport is more about hunting game.

Still, you raised a good question.

Hissho
4th January 2009, 06:05
Here is the article:
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/articles/1759789-P1-Exclusive-Hojutsu-Ryu-the-martial-art-of-shooting/

Duane Wolfe


He forgets to mention the "insulting the memory of slain police officers during shooting AARs," as well as one or two off range, drunken live fire events he has participated in - but perhaps that's not part of the "Hojutsu Ryu" curriculum.

poryu
5th January 2009, 08:11
HI

Morishige Ryu is still in existence today and they are a Japanese gun school

see them here

http://zaitetstu16.seesaa.net/article/94030475.html

Richard Scardina
6th January 2009, 04:40
HI

Morishige Ryu is still in existence today and they are a Japanese gun school

see them here

http://zaitetstu16.seesaa.net/article/94030475.html

So, it is a martial art in many virtues....

tgace
8th January 2009, 18:24
Take a look at handgun CQB and how it needs to be incorporated with H2H techniques and there is little doubt that firearms can be incorporated into what we call "martial arts". As was said upthread, it would be interesting to compare IPSC shooters to "artists" to combat shooters...

CHRISTIN
9th January 2009, 18:32
I say that shooting IS a martial arts skill, and a student can achieve and eventually master the mechanics of its discipline or in simpler terms, putting the bullet exactly where you want it. Beyond that, one must combine these shooting mechanics with the zen aspect of a proper mindset.

It's sort of hard to explain, but when I was shooting competitive "action" pistol, I rose from a beginner class to the higher levels and then reached an impasse... and I remained in this "rut" for an uncomfortably long period of time.

A GrandMaster shooter broke me out of this "rut" by using a zen style teaching approach and I went beyond the "mechanical" or "muscle" skills and started to use my mind... my inner spirit in conjunction with the skills that I had. It worked... my shooting grew faster in speed of shot placement and remained highly accurate. Everything "flowed"... it felt right.

Richard Scardina
10th January 2009, 02:34
But, is shooting a actual acquired skill that anyone can achieve? It would seem that it requires hand/eye coordination, like someone who can sketch and paint.

JS3
10th January 2009, 19:43
But, is shooting a actual acquired skill that anyone can achieve? It would seem that it requires hand/eye coordination, like someone who can sketch and paint.

I would say absolutely.
Just like anyone can learn to sketch and paint, but not everyone can be a Rembrandt.

Richard Scardina
12th January 2009, 01:35
I would say absolutely.
Just like anyone can learn to sketch and paint, but not everyone can be a Rembrandt.

Yes. Just like some of my past martial art classmates and students. Some couldn't do certain methods/moves, whereas others could do. But the beauty of martial arts is within the variety of styles to have one adapt and deveop.

PiersonJ
26th January 2009, 16:43
Hmm, if I may contribute to the topic at hand with very little knowledge about shooting, firearms, and the like.
There are japanese arts that made the cumbersome tanegashima and arquebus into martial techniques with a bayonet and like. But that was to overcome the relative slow fire rate (loading one took a while). Or perhaps it was with WW2 style guns...
Regardless, the martial technique was to overcome a lacking in the weapon, where a sword lacks long distance range, a gun or bow will exceed, but styles of swordsmanship taught getting the most distance out of the sword. Every centimeter counted.
The sword, though, fares far better in melee than a single-shot rifle. But that doesn't discount the ability to stab with a bayonet or club someone who catches you bulletless.

How that relates to modern martial techniques is that today we have handguns that can blow big chunks out of you over and over again (at least, that's what Hollywood tells me). The only downside, in the off chance your shooting sucks so badly that someone can get in close, or ninja you, you can only crack them in the head with the grip or the barrel.
I think, in modern terms, we've forgotten about the fact that the body can universally identify with anything we put in our hands. I'm sure we could very well instill techniques into gunplay that turn an unloaded gun (or if you're not trying to splatter someone's brains) into a viable melee weapon.

I feel naive in saying so, but a gun could adopt some jutte techniques. Overall though, I feel that nothing is truly martial until it involves the entirety of the mind, body (and soul).

As Christin said, incorporating a Zen approach to shooting can surpass mechanical technique, but shooting alone isn't enough, I feel. Perhaps add methods of movement that protect a practitioner's vital organs without constraining them to the life of a Yogic Buddhist Monk.

Only then, I feel, that a gun could reach the same martial artistic heights as the sword has reached.

But, what do I know? I've only held a loaded hunting rifle (mistakenly thinking it was a toy) pointed it at a friend and wondered why they were freaking out. :laugh:
I'm too pretty for jail.

Hissho
26th January 2009, 19:35
Facing a lethal threat certainly does involve the entirety of mind, body and soul. I think that sometimes gets missed in the martial arts, because by and large what used to be the province of men who actually lived and died by their training are now practiced as martial hobbies, competitive sports, or spiritual pursuits (or some combination of the above) removed from that environment.

PiersonJ makes a good point, actually. In many ways, especially at close quarters, and particularly in the contact distance encounters he talks about, skill at empty hand, and skill in using a handgun at contact distance (involving all sorts of manipulation, malfunction clearances, and positional shooting issues) is as much an involved martial art as any armed jujutsu system is/was.

In fact, some of the techniques are the same. Some are almost, but the presence of a (functioning) hand held projectile weapon, versus a bladed weapon, makes a critical difference.

Trevor Johnson
27th January 2009, 01:05
My impression of arquebus and musket is that they did a LOT of damage when they hit; they had rather large ammunition. The problem was that their accuracy and rate of fire were lacking. And every army that had them did intensive drilling to minimize the latter, and used volume of fire to deal with the former. Only the muskets tended to be used clubbed, though. Arquebus were rather delicate, so were rifles. Muskets were pretty sturdy.

A lot of people talk about the mind-body aspect while aiming, but while loading, I think it might be jutsu more than do, there.

Toptomcat
28th January 2009, 06:49
They need discipline, but not nearly of the same sort.

D.S. Brown
3rd March 2009, 22:46
My iaido instructor feels that the best book he has ever read about iaido was Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner." It is a small book written by the aforementioned border patrolman. It is nothing short of a treatise on gunfighting and mindset and surviving lethal encounters.

Another book that I have read that takes a martial approach to gun fighting is "The Armed Option. Zen in the Art of Combat Pistolcraft." Fantastic book!

I have trained in handguns for over 20 years. I would say with confidence that my shooting of handguns is just as much a martial art as the iaido I practice. I see the two as being similar, in that both require a presentation of a weapon to deliver a cut/shot. The intent being the defeat of an adversary intent on killing me/you.

Best,

Dave

Richard Scardina
4th March 2009, 01:09
My iaido instructor feels that the best book he has ever read about iaido was Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner." It is a small book written by the aforementioned border patrolman. It is nothing short of a treatise on gunfighting and mindset and surviving lethal encounters.

Another book that I have read that takes a martial approach to gun fighting is "The Armed Option. Zen in the Art of Combat Pistolcraft." Fantastic book!

I have trained in handguns for over 20 years. I would say with confidence that my shooting of handguns is just as much a martial art as the iaido I practice. I see the two as being similar, in that both require a presentation of a weapon to deliver a cut/shot. The intent being the defeat of an adversary intent on killing me/you.

Best,

Dave


Or the "Zen" of staying focused, ease the trigger, and hit the target

Nathan Scott
29th August 2013, 04:32
Thread resurrection:

I know for myself, training in martial arts has greatly enhanced my shooting skills - especially with handguns. In addition to mindset and targeting elements, there are some technical elements that also crossed over for me:

1) Creating isometric tension between the body and weapon while not creating unnecessary muscle tension;

2) Breath control;

3) Shooting on the move. The systems I study teach bent knee, heel to toe walking that is very smooth and level. When I was taught shooting on the move, I immediately recognized the walking method (groucho walk / duck walk) as being nearly identical to the walking method I already knew. I was immediately able to shoot on the move with very good accuracy due to having a smooth, stable platform for my upper body to pivot on.

While shoulder fired weapons incorporate similar methods, they seem to be far easier to handle accurately than handguns due to the third point of contact (shoulder).

FWIW,

Richard Scardina
31st August 2013, 05:20
Thread resurrection:

I know for myself, training in martial arts has greatly enhanced my shooting skills - especially with handguns. In addition to mindset and targeting elements, there are some technical elements that also crossed over for me:

1) Creating isometric tension between the body and weapon while not creating unnecessary muscle tension;

2) Breath control;

3) Shooting on the move. The systems I study teach bent knee, heel to toe walking that is very smooth and level. When I was taught shooting on the move, I immediately recognized the walking method (groucho walk / duck walk) as being nearly identical to the walking method I already knew. I was immediately able to shoot on the move with very good accuracy due to having a smooth, stable platform for my upper body to pivot on.

While shoulder fired weapons incorporate similar methods, they seem to be far easier to handle accurately than handguns due to the third point of contact (shoulder).

FWIW,

hmmnn. I know many fine shooters who did not need martial arts to develop same said skills

Nathan Scott
31st August 2013, 07:54
I was simply trying to point out that it wasn't necessary for me to learn these skills again, cutting down on my learning curve when it came to shooting. In fact, the point was that these skills are NOT unique to martial arts.

Just thought it might be nice to re-invigorate some discussion here and see if anyone else had some cross-pollination experiences between these "arts" they were interested in posting about.

Richard Scardina
31st August 2013, 17:58
Yes. I agree. But I was also pointing out, that some did not have such a background. It could be said, that since martial arts are a set of acquired skills, such skills are versatile to be applied in other things. What say you?

Hissho
31st August 2013, 20:54
Yes. I agree. But I was also pointing out, that some did not have such a background. It could be said, that since martial arts are a set of acquired skills, such skills are versatile to be applied in other things. What say you?

Aren't we comparing oranges and oranges?

Tactical shooting includes ALL the factors that Nathan noted. It IS a martial art, though a modern one. Many of the best ways, or at least better ways, to move as human beings are going to be the same or similar.

I had the same experience Nathan did. But I have a friend and veteran of multiple shootings, including one on the move against a laterally moving target, who moves similarly without benefit of martial "art" background. Its still martial movement...

That friend has observed that martial artists seem to pick up moving "properly" with firearms better than others.

Richard Scardina
1st September 2013, 01:59
Define Martial Movement;

For that matter, anything involving the human physical can be considered as martial movement

Hissho
1st September 2013, 16:15
For that matter, anything involving the human physical can be considered as martial movement

No, I don't think so. This is so broad as to render it essentially meaningless and open to all kinds of "principle"-y interpretations....kinda the way people talk about ki.

This is increasingly apparent with weapons. Especially functioning with them in the real world versus the dojo or the range, where one must move in and about others - innocents and other armed comrades - while armed and prepared to address a lethal threat.

Some movement - and some martial movement - is better than other kinds of movement.

Richard Scardina
2nd September 2013, 02:21
Hmmmn...Could same physical movement be applied in other activities such as athletics????

JasonNorin
11th March 2015, 08:46
Goes to show that a Martial Arts topic can REALLY be a broad one..

CEB
11th March 2015, 14:40
Kyudo is a martial art. I used to shoot trap and I was on a precission rifle team in college. Yes they are martial arts. As much as Kyudo is.

In Trap Shooting you even have ranks.
Master
AA
A
B
C
D
E

No1'sShowMonkey
16th May 2015, 19:14
The breakdown on this topic is, to me, a rehash of the -do vs -jutsu debate. If what someone is looking for is an isolated practice of great concentration, repeatability, zen-like focus, etc. long range high-power competitions are a kind of modern hojutsu in so many ways.

When it comes to the gunjutsu side of things, the art of gunfighting is alive and well in the USSOCOM community, and with certain units within law enforcement. Watching someone like Travis Haley demonstrate & describe something as simple as malfunction clearance, to lean-out shooting from cover, it is hard to imagine that what he is doing is not a martial art. It is far more martial than most things you'd see in 99% of dojo around the country. There are plenty of folks like him, teaching the sum-total of a decade of warfighting.

It might not look like something you'd see at an Asian Cultural Festival, but make no mistake that there are men at the top of their game training specific skills with firearms with all the intensity, focus, and technique that some would bring to swordsmanship.

Hissho
17th May 2015, 14:30
It might not look like something you'd see at an Asian Cultural Festival, but make no mistake that there are men at the top of their game training specific skills with firearms with all the intensity, focus, and technique that some would bring to swordsmanship.

A group that I am aware of practices kata a la karate - the teachers background is karate based - and they d so in keikogi with kydex holsters...this is to my way of thinking kinda missing the point: they have adopted specific Asian clothing and terminology (in some cases incorrectly) and organizational practices in order to make firearms training more "martial artsy." Despite the founder's legitimate background and experience in OIS-es, its a matter of trappings over substance, and not being able to translate concepts and principles of martial discipline to a separate but equally martial discipline. Can't be a martial art if we aren't wearing pajamas and speaking foreign terms.

So what to do to make the point that it is a martial art?

I just proceed as usual now. Instead of folks wearing hakama but strapped with Glocks, and instead of explaining East Asian martial principles to an audience looking at you with bovine eyes. you simply find modern equivalents and explain them in that way. When I do teach firearms for personal protection, I don't tell them that most of the stuff I am teaching in terms of tactics and strategy has direct correlations to heiho/hyoho: just using different words for things like "kata" and "maai" and "sen" and so on... because most modern training IS all about kata and maai and sen and so on....

With a few people over the years, those steeped in martial traditions but wanting to learn firearms, I will use the same terms and concepts because they get it. I can use the term kiai directly related to addressing threats with a firearm and having nothing to do with a shout, and demonstrate exactly what I mean and they understand and make the connection to their martial training. I was able to do this with the soke of one system who was not highly experienced with handguns - from his classical sword system to modern personal protection firearms - and it allowed in a couple instances a direct transmission of meaning that using tactical gobbledy gook in a language foreign to him would not have.

In large part that language was martial arts...

Brian Owens
17th May 2015, 22:37
A group that I am aware of practices...in keikogi with kydex holsters...

I must admit that that image cracks me up!

mw17
18th October 2020, 02:24
11162Since the 16th century historians & experts in Japan consider the art of Houjutsu as a martial art. The Morishige Ryu school of the Tamizou Den Shimazu ha is still active and taught today in Japan & Australia (Oukatai). The headmaster is Shimazu Kenji.

mw17
18th October 2020, 05:25
I think if you look into history the Japanese did in fact make it a martial art. I know Jeff Hall has devised a martial art around the pistol.

Duane

11163 Correct. The firearm has played a major part in many battles throughout Japan since the 16th Century. This school/tradition called Morishige Ryu is several centuries old and is still taught and practise in Japan today. They use the Hinawaju (long rifle), Tanzutsu (pistol) and Oozutsu (Canon). It is also taught in Australia by the Oukatai group.