PDA

View Full Version : Kukishinden-ryu Bojutsu



leoboiko
8th November 2001, 16:23
I'm *very* interested in Kukushin Ryu. I found this great website (http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html) and I'm still studing it.

I would like to receive your impressions and opinions about Kukushin Ryu. Why it isn't listed at koryu.com "ryu guide"?

Jimmy Francoeur
8th November 2001, 17:07
Hi there!

"Why it isn't listed at koryu.com ryu guide?"

In the website Koryu.com it is state that:

"Please keep in mind, however, that this list is by no means comprehensive. Many of the hundreds of existant classical traditions are not yet listed, so the fact that a school's name does not appear
means relatively little." (koryu.com)

But You can ask your question to Mr. Skoss. I have email him a couple of time and he seem like a very nice man.

I am not sure if I am right, but I think that the Kukishin ryu had a split at some time. Does M. Hatsumi of the Bujinkan is not the Soke of the Kukishin ryu too?? :confused: Anybody with more info on this?

Take care
Jim:)

popupsoldier
9th November 2001, 02:41
Yes - many schools, too hard to compile all info on all schools.

As for the lineage, from what I recall (from reading various sources) the school was passed on to several people one person was Takamatsu another was Minaki (passed on by the same person). Here the lineages have come to the more popularly known Bujinkan/Jinenkan/Genbukan syllabuses as well as the now Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu syllabuses.

But all theses current lineages are all authentic (ie Bujin/Jinen/Genbu and present day Kukishin and Hontai Yoshin Ryu (s)):karatekid

KengiF
9th November 2001, 11:45
I am not sure if I am right, but I think that the Kukishin ryu had a split at some time. Does M. Hatsumi of the Bujinkan is not the Soke of the Kukishin ryu too?? Anybody with more info on this?

Yes, there was some sort of split at one time. If you do a search here on e-budo you can find all sorts of stuff on Kukishin/Kukishinden ryu(s).

poryu
9th November 2001, 13:28
Hi

If you want to find out about Kukishin ryu history you are in for a huge head ache. Tere are so many branches of the school now.

The site you found is one of the bettersites and is decended from a branch connected to Ishitani (Ishiya) sensei via Iwami Nagaku to todays line.

Iwami Nangaku was a friend and fellow student under Ishitani with Takamatsu Toshitsugu (Called Chosui on the kukishin site)

The Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan lines of Kukishin Ryu study are related to Takamatsu to Ishitani.

From what i have found out the actual Kuki family no longer activiely participate in Martial arts. I have spent a lot of time looking into the history of the Kuki Ryu and its hell. So many lines and connections. Even the Hontai Yoshin Ryu is connected via its Bojutsu.

On my web site I think you will find 7 soke lists. This may get you started


http://www.geocities.com/umaryu/Articles/Soke.htm

have fun - also check the bujinkan and Genbukan formum on e-budo, you wil find more there if you look in the archive

Nathan Scott
30th May 2006, 02:08
Those interested in Kukishin-ryu may find the following book interesting:

"Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu", by Kiba Koshiro. 2001, Buyu Shoseki Shuppan. English translation of "Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu Sosho: Dai Nippon Goshinjutsu", originally published in 1937. This is volume 1, which centers on Kukishin-ryu bojutsu. Technical manual on rokushakubo and hanbo w/ brief sections on art history, etiquette, etc.

It looks like this Kiba Koshiro was a student of Takamatsu Toshitsugu line, but the original writing is pretty old and the translation has some nice historical photographs.

Here is a bit from the history of the art section:


"In 1336, Ashikaga Takauji placed Emperor Godaigo under house arrest in the former palace of Emperor Kazanin. Kumano Betto Yakushimoru Kurodo was outraged at th treatment of the God Emperor. After sending a request to all members of the Kumano Clan, he secretly led his men to protect the Emperor. Yakushimoru Kurodo asked a relative from his mother's side, named Asonhi no Dainagon, to inform the Emperor of Kurodo's plan and try to save him by sneaking into the palace disguised as a woman. The God Emperor was pleased to hear the news.

When they were about to enter Yoshino, the rebels fiercely attacked Kurodo, trying to kill him. Kurodo blockec with his yari, but it as cut and broke into two pieces. He continued to fight hard using the broken yari as a rokushakubo. The rebels were unable to get close to him, so they began to attack Kurodo with bows and arrows. At this time, Kurodo used shinden kuji kiri, and the rebels, who numbered in the thousands, were stunned by his sudden god-like aura and retreated in confusion. Kurodo finally succeeded in moving the Emperor to Yoshino Zodo, which became the temporary imperial palace and marked the beginning of the Nancho Era.

Afterwards, Kurodo continued to deepen his knowledge of bojutsu and created Kuji Kyutsu Kyuju Kyuhon. This is the origin of Kukishin-ryu Bojutsu."

Regards,

Mekugi
3rd June 2006, 14:48
This book is an overview of the Shobukyoku Seitei Kata, simply called "Self Defense Techniques". There is also a book on the Taijutsu published. Neat stuff- seitei for sure.

Kiba Koshiro, who became the fourth head of Shobu Kyoku after Matsubara, was a person with inventiveness. With some corrections to old techniques, he established the standardized Kata "Shobukyoku Seitei Kata" and published a book "Japanese Self Defense Techniques vol. 1: Bojutsu" in 1936 (Sanseido Pub.) 3, making the name Kukishin Ryu well known. Kiba Koshiro also studied under Takamatsu Chosui; besides Taijutsu and Bojutsu, he mastered every field of Kukishin Ryu.retrieved June 4th, 2006 from http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history05_e.htm#n3, Eighth paragraph.

For information on the founding of Kukishinryu Bojutsu, you can look here:
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/history01_e.htm

As you can see there some errata in the book as the bojutsu really comes from the Naginata.

Always,

Samurai Radio
26th March 2009, 19:10
Does anyone know where I can find a listing of all the Kukishinden bo kata? I have the Moti Nativ dvd, but I believe it only covers ten of the 25. Thanks.

-Patrick W.

John Anderson
26th March 2009, 19:28
Does anyone know where I can find a listing of all the Kukishinden bo kata? I have the Moti Nativ dvd, but I believe it only covers ten of the 25.
The 25 are not all the bo kata, just the sabaki gata. There are also the shoden, chuden and okuden levels for this weapon.
As for a list, there are a few of them around and you should be able to get one easily by googling for it.
If you want a dvd of the techniques themselves, I believe that the Hatsumi Sensei dvd covers the 25 sabaki gata in their entirety, but I could be wrong as it's been a few years since I've watched it.
I also believe that a set of Jinenkan DVDs are currently at the editing stage and these will probably cover the other three levels as well.

Samurai Radio
26th March 2009, 20:19
Thanks for the info. Maybe I just didn't understand or am not remembering correctly from what Nativ's dvd said, but I thought there were 25 bo kata. Thanks very much for the clarification. I was hoping I might find the remaining kata and such online for free (I know...wishful thinking) because the economy has had a negative affect on me and money is tight. $40+ for a dvd isn't something I want to shell out right now.

Dean Whittle
27th March 2009, 01:52
Patrick,

You'll find a complete list of the Kukishinden bo kata here:

www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html

along with a whole bunch of other kata.

With respect

Samurai Radio
27th March 2009, 18:09
Thank you very much, Dean! I should have looked on that site to begin with. I actually train with shidoshi Harding when I can make the drive to St. Louis.

George Kohler
27th March 2009, 19:03
Patrick,

You'll find a complete list of the Kukishinden bo kata here:

www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html

along with a whole bunch of other kata.

With respect

From what I remember (it has been a long time since I was in the Bujinkan... like 15 years ago) this list doesn't look complete. This list is missing the shoden, chuden, ect. The names are a combinition of the kamae names and some of the following words: Kangi, Gogi, Hakugi, ect.

budomuso
3rd April 2009, 21:53
A list (perhaps not THE list ;)), can be seen here:

http://www.jinenkanstore.com/Articles.asp?ID=128

Interestingly, the sabaki gata are listed in sequence after the okuden gata.

James Whelan

John Anderson
4th April 2009, 06:30
Interestingly, the sabaki gata are listed in sequence after the okuden gata.
Why is that interesting? That's the way the techniques are arranged.

budomuso
4th April 2009, 08:13
That's interesting - to me - because noone I've ever spoken to who has trained in the variety of Kukishin ryu bojutsu taught in Kukishinden Happo Hiken has been taught the shoden no kata after the kihon.

Were you taught the shoden no kata after you learned the kihon?

John Anderson
4th April 2009, 12:15
Were you taught the shoden no kata after you learned the kihon?

The short answer to your question is no, I wasn't taught the shoden after the kihon but to be honest, the way I was taught the Bojutsu (and everything else) was all over the place, particularly during my Bujinkan days.

It was a long time ago but if I remember correctly I was probably 'taught' the first couple of the sabaki gata before I covered the kihon in any systematic way. Indeed, the first time I remember being taught that there was a specified set of Kihon was in Japan by Ishizuka Sensei some eight years after I'd started training.

Of course, I also wasted a lot of time being taught techniques which I was told were 'henka' which were beyond the basics. In reality these were just crap techniques made up by people who I later realised didn't even have a clue about the basics.

It was only after I left the Bujinkan that I had the chance to study this (or any other) weapon in a systematic way and I had to go back over the stuff I'd missed.


That's interesting - to me - because noone I've ever spoken to who has trained in the variety of Kukishin ryu bojutsu taught in Kukishinden Happo Hiken has been taught the shoden no kata after the kihon.

Given what is found in the different levels of kata, I can see why people would focus only on the Sabaki Gata if the availability of good instruction/information is limited. However, enough people have travelled to Japan over the past 25-30 years that all this stuff should now be readily available.

If you are studying something, it makes sense to me to do so in the correct order i.e. start at the beginning and follow the material through to the end until itís all be covered. Personally, I find it 'interesting' that this isn't done.

Chris Parker
4th April 2009, 13:35
Hi,

I've seen a couple of different lists, including ones said to be Kukishin Ryu, and others with the name Kukishinden Ryu from the same source (implying differing branches, I believe). The Kukishinden Ryu variant has Kamae Gata (9 Kamae), Kihon Gata (4 Kihon), Keiko Sabaki Gata (25 Kata), Shoden no Gata (9 Kata), Chuden no Gata (9 Kata), and Okuden no Gata (9 Kata), with an additional 2 or 3 "kuden" patterns. The Kukishin Ryu list features Kamae Gata (6 Kamae), Kihon Gata (6 Kihon), Kuji no Gata (9 solo Kata), and then Bojutsu Tachi-Ai (24 Kata, repeated on both sides to make 48 Kata).

The Kata lists for the Kukishinden Ryu Keiko Sabaki section and the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu Tachi-Ai are incredibly similar, however, the techniques themselves have some large and small differences. To find them, the are the aforementioned DVDs from Hatsumi Sensei and Manaka Sensei, as well as a range of DVDs/CDs from Tanemura Sensei. There is also "the purple book"... Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu - Hanbo Bo Tachi-Ai by Kiba Koshiro, and the Sandan Manual from Richard Van Donk (which contains the entire Kukishinden Ryu syllabus, but written in a way that you should have an understanding of the school/weapon before you start to look at it).

Good luck, and enjoy.

poryu
6th April 2009, 23:34
HI

from information I have from one Kukishinden Ryu densho its has Kamae, Kihon gata then the sabaki followed by the Shoden/Chuden/Okuden. There isno Kuden in it.

In the Shinto Tenshin Ryu Bojutsu Gokui densho I have, the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu is in it. The Sabaki Gata as we know it is broken up and called Shoden, Chuden. Okuden, there are other sections before and after this with alterations

Shinobi
8th April 2009, 02:38
In the Shinto Tenshin Ryu Bojutsu Gokui densho I have, the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu is in it. The Sabaki Gata as we know it is broken up and called Shoden, Chuden. Okuden, there are other sections before and after this with alterations

That is probably Ueno Takashi's line of Amatsu Tatara Kukishin-ryu bojutsu. Similar in some ways to the Happo Biken of Hatsumi-soke's line but probably much more similar to the Kukishin-ryu bojutsu found inside Takagi-ryu. But as we both know its a garbled mess and confusing who got what and under what name. :beer: :confused: :beer:

George Kohler
8th April 2009, 02:59
There are like two different Kukishin-ryu bojutsu that Ueno Takashi Sensei taught. One of them was included in Tenshin Ko-ryu. This version appears to be just like the kata taught in the Shobukyoku Kukishin-ryu book that Kiba Koshiro wrote. The kamae are the same. At least that is what I seen based on a book that showed the densho (this was a book written by Kunimatsu's students). As some of us know Takeuchi Kikakusai Nobuyoshi and Sato Kinbei learned this from Oba Ichio and taught it to Ueno Takashi.

The other is the Amatsu Tatara Kukishin-ryu bojutsu and this one seems more in line with what is taught in Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu, even though it is broken up into shoden, chuden, ect., but it does not include the Kangi, Gogi, Hakugi, ect.

poryu
8th April 2009, 05:34
One of them was included in Tenshin Ko-ryu. This version appears to be just like the kata taught in the Shobukyoku Kukishin-ryu

HI

this is correct and my post is to be correct to this.

I had an email from someone who read the post and they contacted me to say the papers I have are from the Shobukyoku version of Kukishin Ryu