View Full Version : Guard getting stabbed (was Jigen Ryu: Real Application!)

Jack Chen
30th October 2009, 10:11
For those not familiar with Jigen Ryu, here's the embu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLNExI_uK4

I just came across a video earlier today by chance, of a real-life captured footage of people fighting off a robber or something.

One fellow took a pipe and begin whacking at the robber in a manner which reminds me of Jigen Ryu.

Here's the robbery video (check out 1:00) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY2T5DIxLYg

Just thought it's interesting, to see how real-life applications look like, and then preserved in Kata-geiko.

30th October 2009, 14:01
Well, not sure that the shop owner is trained in Jigen-ryu, but it does confirm that basic movements and aggression are very applicable.

The guard should have trained some kogusoku and BJJ, though!

Not to derail the thread, but this is a great video to show several things and dispel common MA and SD myth:

1)Just 'cuz someone gets cut/stabbed doesn't mean it will have an effect.

2) Fights go to the ground, generally at very inopportune moments, and groundfighting skill - including in the weapons based encounter - is very important.

3) Some people can take repeated, solid hits(whacks, cuts/stabs, bullets) and keep coming. The assailant took some very good shots, he was ultimately beaten off, but his mental state and perhaps chemicals on board had him still dangerous through most of it.

30th October 2009, 19:29
This same clip was used as part of another video to dispel myths about defense against knife attacks. I think it may be on youtube as well. It was passed around facebook quite a bit.

Just being more alert could have helped this guard a lot. He was lazy and caught off guard. Hopefully he learned a lesson. Some martial arts training could have helpe dhim, but with no referee to take the knife away, I'm not sure that BJJ would have been useful to him at all.

30th October 2009, 19:50
Well, that's another discussion altogether.

In short, the ability to fight on the ground at all would be an advantage over not having that ability, as is in evidence here. Judo newaza or wrestling would have also helped the guy at several points in this encounter.

I think that's just common sense, but that's just me.

30th October 2009, 21:02
Sorry, guys. I've been teaching judo for over 40 years, & really don't see it as being applicable or very useful in this scenario. The last thing you want to do in a confined space is get down on the ground; the guard should have picked up his stool & either clobbered the crook, or at least used it to keep him at a distance. The crook certainly didn't look to be all that competent a fighter.

And instead of swinging with that pipe - or whatever it was - the other guy should have used the END of it to poke a few holes in the crook's neck, take out an eye, or castrate the SOB! If your stick doesn't have a sharp edge, & you're in close quarters, it may not be all that useful for swinging, especially on a meth-head. :nono::nono:

30th October 2009, 21:16
Once more I am astonished. Sorry to intrude upon your belief systems, gentlemen.

31st October 2009, 04:07
The last thing you want to do in a confined space is get down on the ground;

That might be true, but in this case it looks like the guard ended up on the ground whether he wanted to be there or not. Going to ground might not be your first choice int his scenario-- or your second choice, or your third-- but once you are there you need to be able to deal with it. This individual didn't seem to do anything but flail about once he was on the ground. Having a basic familiarity with BJJ, judo newaza, or anything along those lines might have given him a set of tools to use in order to minimize his damage and maximize his chance of recovery once he got into that (bad) position.

Of course, even if he had had those tools available adrenal dump might have severely limited his ability to use them. But I'd rather have the tools sitting somewhere in my muscle memory, where I might be able to pull them out, then to have no idea whatsoever what I could do to protect myself once I hit the ground.

Just my extremely unexpert opinions, of course, which are worth about what you are paying for them.

31st October 2009, 14:53
Spot on, David.

George Kohler
31st October 2009, 14:59
I am in agreement with Kit, some kind of ground fighting would have helped. The security guard was to complacent in my opinion and didn't give him time to use any stand up defense. There was a clue he should have picked on, like walking up to the wrong side of the door, when the door handle was clearly on the other side.

[Edited since the copy and move]

George Kohler
31st October 2009, 16:25
I went ahead and copied the thread and moved it to a more appropriate forum.

George Kohler
31st October 2009, 16:39
Actually, I would not have been sitting in a chair. And he was too close to the door. Sitting allows people to be more lazy/complacent. If I was made to sit (owner's directive) I would have asked to have my chair to be moved to the other side.

Just being in front of the opening allows a "path of least resistance" for the attacker.

31st October 2009, 20:29
I knew a guard who worked at a check cashing store who used to like to sit by the front door. I told him that he will be the first one shot.

I knew another bank guard who preferred to be outside. He was roving and very alert. He was inside at times. He did not have a regular routine to his roaming. If anything ever happened, most likely he would have had the fight outside and had advantage.

This guard felt too complacent and nearly paid with his life.

Jack Chen
1st November 2009, 00:56
Hello guys, actually the purpose my post was to highlight what we already know.
1) Mother Nature (psychics, human psychology etc..) created Techniques.
2) Man discovered techniques through real situations and natural means.
3) Man preserve and passes on said discovered techniques.

In these days, we only get to see #3. Your embu and stuff. Which are pre-arranged drills.

Even though in the video, the person was using a stick/pipe, I believe the way he struck the robber was very natural for himself and the Jigen Ryu folks probably discovered this similar natural and effective technique in the past.

I just thought it'll be interesting to witness #2 in this case, even though it was a stick/pipe.

3rd November 2009, 21:40
So did everyone else who ever picked up a stick, hammer, umbrella, etc.

When my nephew was 2 two years old, I gave him a little beach chair with an umbrella for sitting around the yard. One of the other little kids at the party kept playing with his toys, so he picked up that umbrella and smacked him over the head with it. That was not Jigen Ryu either.

Jigen Ryu technique is not quite natural. It evolved and was refined, along with the sword. As in all styles, the cutting motion is influenced by the shape of the blade. The blade is not a natural thing. Using more natural movements with a katana will result in a chopping motion and cutting will be difficult.