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Ernesto Lemke
28th February 2001, 16:07
Greetings all,

I hope someone can help me with this as I donít practice a classical sword system myself.

Iím looking for info on Shindo Munen Ryu as it is my understanding the late Kiyoshi Nakakura Sensei practiced this Ryu. Being an aikidoka myself, Iím very interested in this because I train according to the teaching principles of the late Rinjiro Shirata Sensei. Shirata Sensei left behind a separate sword system which I suspect has itís foundation from his training under Nakakura Sensei at the Kobukan years of the early 1930ís. I was wondering if anyone here could tell me a little about Shindo Munen Ryu and whether Nakakura Sensei transmitted the knowledge of that system himself, mainly in the 1930ís. It could very well be that what I practice today may be very similar to Shindo Munen Ryu but I donít know how to find out if that is true or not.
Hope someone here knows something about this.
Best regards,

Ernesto Lemke

bushikan
3rd July 2006, 12:53
shindo munen ryu (shindou munen ryu) is a 300 hundered year old liniage. founded by fukui hyoeimon. the art came from shin shinkage ichiden ryu. with students like nagoro shimpachi (2 squad leader of the shinsengumi) kastura kagoro (leader of chosu clan) and most notablely nakayama hakudo (reorgnisor of shinnamura ha hassegawa eishin ryu now muso shinden ryu). there are only a few people who practice shindo munen ryu including myself. I am the only foirener training in the art. i currently live in tokyo and have been studing only a month however there are many misconceptions about shindo munen ryu most people who have trained in muso shinden ryu under mitsuzuka takashi hanshi were taught shindo munen ryu battojutsu it consists of 12 iai forms however those are not the iai forms of shindo munen ryu. the iai forms are very diffrent and unique compared to mitsuzuka forms while the yonbammae of the curiculim, utsusenmi (shindo munen ryu batojutsu) is unique it is not the same as the forms i have seen the jo-menyoko and menyokos preform. and i have not seen them preform utsusenmi once. shindo munen ryu kenjustu is very powerful and unique style the kenjutsu, and footwork are very diffrent from muso shinden ryu and sport kendo which is what they teach in the states. as for your sensei i dont know because if he passed he is no longer posted on the student wall. if i remember i will ask the soke about his name however i dont know if i will get the correct response since my japanese still needs tweeking. that is all im going to say for now. i do not want to say anything since i just began and the art likes to be unknown and have a small group training base filled with people who are deticated to the art and the teachings of nakayama hakudo.

Alex Dale
4th July 2006, 06:12
Jeffrey (Bushikan),


Im no moderator but Id recommend attaching your name to your signature before someone gets onto you about it.


Second, Ive been in Japan for a few weeks and Ill be here for 2 more, and Im `based` in Tokyo. Im pretty busy with my own training and such, travelling to Nagoya often, I would be interested in having the chance to observe training in the Shindo Munen-ryu as it is a style I know very little about and there seems to be very little information about it.


If you could speak with your teacher and PM me, that would be marvelous.

Regards,

ichibyoshi
11th July 2006, 06:50
Ernesto,

I'm not sure about the art of which "Bushikan" speaks.

I thought that Shindo (or Shinto) Munen Ryu is the art founded by Muso Gonnosuke. I believe it is a quite expansive curriculum, including paired kenjutsu kata, and nito. But its foundation is the jo.

I don't know about Nakakura sensei's connection to SMR, but his teacher, Nakayama Hakudo, was its most famous authority. In fact in the 1930s, Nakakura sensei would have been too young to be an authority on SMR (in his 20s?). Nakayama sensei would have been in his prime however. If you sensei was practicing SMR "under" someone at this time, I imagine it would have been Nakayama sensei.

Further, I'm not clear on Nakakura sensei's connections to aikido after his split with the Ueshiba family. I have heard people refer to his kendo technique as retaining aspects of aikido footwork until the end of his days, but other than that the connection is never mentioned.

Would be curious to know also.

b

George Kohler
11th July 2006, 07:15
I thought that Shindo (or Shinto) Munen Ryu is the art founded by Muso Gonnosuke. I believe it is a quite expansive curriculum, including paired kenjutsu kata, and nito. But its foundation is the jo.

Ben,

I think you are confused. Shinto Muso-ryu is the one you are referring to. Shindo Munen-ryu is a different school.

Ellis Amdur
11th July 2006, 16:52
George is, of course, correct re SMR and Shindo Munen-ryu. Interestingly, Nakayama Hakudo also did have a teaching license in Shinto Muso-ryu, independent of Shimiu. (I think he was licensed by Uchida Ryohei, but I'm not sure). I've seen one film of a group associated with Nakayama's lineage doing SMR, and it differed in some significant ways from any of the groups presenting either Tokyo (Shimizu) or Kyushu (Otofuji) lines. However, it also appeared that they were reviving something they either hadn't practiced in a long time, or had pieced back together something no longer practiced by their group, so I don't know how much stock one could give the idea that they were executing kata like Nakayama H. did.

As for Nakakura, it is well known that he started/headed a kendo section in the Kobukan (the aikido dojo of the 1930's), and Shirata definitely practiced as part of that group. According to Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Nakayama H. was one of Ueshiba's closest friends. Notwithstanding this, there is no account of Nakakura teaching Shindo Munen-ryu to any of the aikido deshi, nor am I aware that he, in fact, learned this from Nakayama (not saying he didn't either). However, if he did know these forms, teaching them wouldn't have had to have been something all that formal - it may have been something as simple as needing a practice partner to continue to go through the forms so he didn't get rusty. Had he simply showed Shirata, for example, the forms, and they practiced them occasionally, this could easily have provided structure for the sword work that Shirata later developed to exemplify his interpretation of aikido. I would suggest acquiring a tape of Shindo Munen-ryu, if, for example, the Budokan has put one out as part of their kobudo series, and make a detailed comparison between the kata and the aikiken forms that Shirata did. Might also be worth an inquiry to some of the senior students of Shirata, but I'm sure this has already occured to you - sorry for stating the obvious :)

Best

Ernesto Lemke
13th July 2006, 18:16
Thanks everyone and apologies for the time taken to reply. This was a rather old inquiry though the issue, along with several other issues, still remains unresolved to a larger extent so the quest continues...
Nothing to add really, merely wanted to say thanks for the input.
Best,

Ernesto Lemke

ichibyoshi
14th July 2006, 02:37
Ben,

I think you are confused. Shinto Muso-ryu is the one you are referring to. Shindo Munen-ryu is a different school.

How embarassment! Thanks for the clarification George.

b

bushikan
15th July 2006, 17:16
the diffrence between the two arts is shinto muso ryu (is a jojutsu art) and shindo munen ryu (is kenjustu). nakayama hakudo recieved menkyo kaiden in shindo munen ryu from nigishi shingoro. which made him the headmaster of the art (soke). there are only four ranks in shindo munen ryu; kiragami , murokuroku, jyu menkyo (instructor certification), and menkyo kaiden (soke).
each rank has the unlocks more content including exercises, more kumitachi, and iai. my dojo also teaches shinto muso ryu jojutsu. nakayama hakudo was the first hanshi of jodo, and recieved menkyo kaiden from uchida ryogoro and takeda kohachi. and teaches muso shinden ryu. shindo munen ryu is a 300 year koryu which became popular during the fall of the bakamatsu. kagoro katsura leader of chosu clan sole sword art was shindo munen ryu kenjutsu. and nagoro shimpachi recieved a murokuroku in shindo munen ryu and in hokushin itto ryu. this is one of the reason why i chose to post this information because there is so much confusion about the art and its history. i hope this information is helpful as to prevent such confusions in the future.

George Kohler
20th July 2006, 06:41
Bushikan,

Please sign you FULL name on all your posts. This is a rule on E-Budo.