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MarkF
20th June 2000, 11:35
License of transmission?

Could someone please come to my house and take a look at my 86 Mercury?

Kamuii
11th September 2000, 21:57
Greetings...

I have seen that usually the Soke of each ryuha have a set of scrolls. These may vary and have different names for different puposes. Can anyone have a correct definition and name of each of the different scrolls given?

Example: Densho, Makimono, Torimaki, etc...

Best,

Arnold Vargas
Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
&
Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu

ghp
11th September 2000, 22:51
The scroll that passes lineage is usually called Soden [Entire Transmission] -- there may be other names; remember, there is no single hard-and-fast rule when it comes to the Japanese language (especially in budo).

Various styles may have a particular name for their soden, such as MJER's Tora-no-maki [Tiger's Scroll]; but, it is still a "soden."

Regards,
Guy

hyaku
12th September 2000, 02:58
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KAMUII
[B]Greetings...

I have seen that usually the Soke of each ryuha have a set of scrolls. Arnold Vargas.

...............................
As Mr Power says its all Soden.

I don't think there any hard rules to go by. Some Ryu have almost no written evidence as people were most reluctant to put anything that might get into the wrong hands. A lot of it is written in such a way that only a practitioner would understand. Without doubt there is almost no Shomen giri in my Ryu. But certain previous Shihan have written this to disguise the real intention, particularly during the Tokugawa Era.

Some time ago someone asked the present descendant of the fiefs Lord, (Tachibana Sama) if there was any written evidence of my Ryu. They were told no.The people in question have since moved on and those faithfull remain. Then one day when we sat drinking coffee the subject was brought up again. Tachibana said just wait a minute. He came back with a box full of scrolls written by previous Shihan of the Ryu.

NHK television did program on me some time ago. One viewer was a lady who's descendant was a shihan of the Ryu had left scrolls and notes with the family. Not knowing that the Ryu still existed they had handed them down through the family for generations. She came forward and presented them to me.

Without the practical experience the writings are not of much use. Like wise the practice tends to wander off track without a chance to refer to notes on fundamentals.

Hyakutake Colin

Kamuii
12th September 2000, 04:24
Thank you for your replies. :)

Ok, lets see if I get more detailed or specific...

Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

I would like to have a definition on these...is it possible?

Any replies are welcome again. Thank you. :)

Best,

Arnold

Shinobi
12th September 2000, 06:52
Originally posted by KAMUII
Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


Makimono is a scroll.



Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


TorA no Maki is as Guy said "Tiger scroll". This is just a name for a upper level scroll in some ryha.



Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


Densho means "tradition book" which is a book of x-ryha and usually describes kata, etc.

George Kohler
12th September 2000, 07:12
Originally posted by KAMUII
Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?
Arnold

Hi Arnold,

I've seen "torimaki" used in one book by Andrew Adams, but don't know if this is a correct way of calling it a scroll. In my dictionary it describes it as a "follower, hanger-on." Also, with the same Kanji it can be pronounced "Torimaku" meaning "surround, encircle."


[Edited by George Kohler on 09-12-2000 at 01:15 AM]

Kamuii
12th September 2000, 07:40
Thanks George and Eric for your replies too. :)

I get a better picture now, it was a little confusing when people sometimes talked about the scrolls of a ryuha and mentioned these three, so I had to ask. Thank you again all for your help.

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita! :smilejapa

Best,

Arnold Vargas
Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
&
Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu

ghp
12th September 2000, 23:49
Eric is correct, but let me add my own readings:


Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Makimono [maki= roll; mono= thing]. "Scroll" Ageneric term (like "kimono") meaning "something rolled up." [Kimono means "something that is worn"]. A "kakejiku" is a hanging scroll.

Tora no maki [tora= tiger; no= possessive; maki= roll]. "Tiger Scroll." This is the senior ranked scroll of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Whoever possesses this scroll may claim to be an inheritor. Earl Hartman has researched the Tora no Maki and finds there were multiple awards during any one soke's lifetime. Perhaps Earl will care to comment later.

Densho [den= transmit/transmission; sho= writing/book]. This may be in the form of either scroll or kirikami ["cut paper" -- so called (I think) because it is a sheet of cut paper, as opposed to a scroll). The densho may or may not transmit a school's teachings. Mine is more or less a document stating that I have been granted transmission of the ryu by the soke -- essentially, it states I am a "full-fledged" disciple instead of a student. In some styles the future soke is selected by the incumbent from only those who have been awarded densho.

Regards,
Guy

Kamuii
13th September 2000, 03:45
Thanks Guy! :)

All of you have been of great help. I thank you all again. :)

Best,

Arnold

John Lindsey
13th September 2000, 03:58
Interesting discussion. I was wondering how prevalent it is for a soke who claims to teach a koryu art to refuse to show their scrolls or any proof of their claims. It seems that it is just the opposite and that they are willing to show them to the right people and under the right circumstances.

Nathan Scott
13th September 2000, 05:45
I find it annoying when ryu-ha choose not to let some ligitimate research authorities inspect at least lineage related documents and records.

Besides giving crediblity to their claim (whether they seek it or not), it also helps historians track inter-relationships and what not between ryu-ha and other bodies. Every little bit helps.

I'm not saying the records should be available to the public on demand, mind you, but I don't see that harm in allowing a researcher to verify and inspect aspects of their densho.

Anyway, in regards to the term "kirigami", this was apparently in reference originally to a certificate that has a corner torn off of it, to be retained by the issuing party for future authentication if needed. Kind of like how a hanko is used now as a "wari-in" to register a certificate or document, a kirigami was a more crude way of registering a certificate.

I don't know that the practice of tearing the paper is still done literally, but many styles have retained this term. The level of transmission in which this is awarded seems to vary alot between ryu-ha.

Even Shinkendo uses this term in our ranking structure.

Regards,

Earl Hartman
13th September 2000, 09:35
Guy, et al:

I want to preface my remarks by stating right away that I am by no means an expert on transmission in MJER, although I have looked into it a little bit due to what appeared to me to be a strange lack of general knowledge of the career of my late MJER teacher, Masaoka Sensei.

That being said, I do not know of any scroll of transmission in MJER known as the "Tora no Maki" (the "Tiger Scroll", I presume). I am not familiar with any of the interim licenses in MJER, so perhaps such a scroll exists.

All I can say is that according to Masaoka Sensei`s book, and based upon a telephone conversation with Noda Toru Sensei, Masaoka Sensei`s senior disciple, the equivalent of menkyo kaiden in MJER is the "Kongen no Maki", the "Scroll of Origins" (Guy, perhaps this is the scroll to which you were referring). It is my understanding from Noda Sensei that this is the highest rank possible to achive in MJER and that the posession of the Kongen no Maki indicates that the holder is entitled to confer the Kongen no Maki on others (that is, he has the power of promotion to rank), thus continuing the lineage. It is my understanding that this means, in effect, that any holder of the Kongen no Maki can legitimately be considered the inheritor of the entire tradition. Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)

Hope this helps. I am sure that Hyakutake san could give us more information on this, at least as far as it relates to MJER.

Earl

hyaku
13th September 2000, 14:45
It is my understanding from Noda Sensei that this is the highest rank possible to achive in MJER and that the posession of the Kongen no Maki indicates that the holder is entitled to confer the Kongen no Maki on others (that is, he has the power of promotion to rank), thus continuing the lineage. It is my understanding that this means, in effect, that any holder of the Kongen no Maki can legitimately be considered the inheritor of the entire tradition. Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)

Hope this helps. I am sure that Hyakutake san could give us more information on this, at least as far as it relates to MJER.

Earl
............

Hello Earl
Iwata Sensei and Terao Sensei (Iwata sensei's student) tell me the same as you say, that only three people received Kongen no Maki. There is a picture of Shigeki Sensei's on my site.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

I am not sure about Kongen no Maki being conferred on other inheritors of the tradition. As I understand Kongen no maki is MJER's name for Menkyo Kaiden. Iwata sensei received two being the inheritor and student of two of Oe Sensei's students.

Conveniently the only person to receive this from Iwata Sensei, Terao Yoshiteru sensei lives about 5 minutes from here. I will ask him next time I see him.

Regards Colin (Hyaku)

Joanne Miller
13th September 2000, 15:10
Hello all,
It's kind of side track from the MJER issue but since we are on the thread of MJER sucessions I was wondering if anyone is aware of an equivalent system of Makimono (If any) used in Muso Shinden Ryu and if the highest license issued in Muso Shinden Ryu is Menkyo Kaiden? ( I haven't heard of the Kongen no Maki used in Muso Shinden Ryu before and so was thinking it was soley unique to MJER)

Just curious does MJER practice in parts or in full anything similar to the "I Kumi tachi no kurai" sets as done by Danzaki sensei of Muso Shinden Ryu ? (i.e Daisho Kyo , Daisho Tachizume , Kuraidori, e.t.c) If so does anyone know if the waza share the same names?

Very interesting stuff in this thread so far

Cheers,

ghp
14th September 2000, 02:26
Earl,


"Kongen no Maki", the "Scroll of Origins" (Guy, perhaps this is the scroll to which you were referring).

You Sir, are correct, Sir. Just chalk it up to my dotage. I don't know how I replaced "Kongen" with "Tora" in my feeble mind ... but I did. Thank you for straightening me out.

Humbly,
Guy

ghp
14th September 2000, 02:35
Earl and Colin,


Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.

On the inside cover of Mitani sensei's Shoukai Iai: Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is a photograph of his scroll, signed by Yamamoto Takuji. Might this scroll also be Kongen no Maki?

Regards,
Guy

Robert Reinberger
14th September 2000, 03:06
Originally posted by Earl Hartman

Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)


Originally posted by hyaku

Iwata Sensei and Terao Sensei (Iwata sensei's student) tell me the same as you say, that only three people received Kongen no Maki.


On the site of Austrian practioners of Sekiguchi-ha, the lineage after Oe Sensei is given as:


18. Yamanouchi Toyokata
19. Kono Kanemitsu
20. Onoe Masayoshi
21. Sekiguchi Takaaki (Komei)

This might be of some interest, considering an information that was posted before the crash, regarding Sekiguchi Senseis recognition as MJER Soke by an esteemed Japanese Koryu society (I don't remember which one it was).

BTW, Sekiguchi Sensei will be teaching in Austria on September 23rd and 24th.

However, I now have some questions:

Does anybody have informations about Yamanouchi Toyokata?

Does anybody know if Kono Kanemitsu (Juku Dai of Sekiguchi ha) was identical or related with Kono Hyakuren, Niju Dai of Fukui Sensei's line?

Unfortunately Fukui Torao Sensei has passed away this year. Does anybody know if Ikeda Takashi Sensei has succeeded him as Soke of this line (Ikeda Sensei was described as Fukui Sensei's appointed successor, as far as I know). Are there any discussions about that?

I apologize for addressing the branch line of MJER succession instead of the main topic of this thread, but I thought it's kind of fitting in here.

Best regards,
Robert

Earl Hartman
14th September 2000, 05:22
Joanne:

In his book, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai Heiho Chi no Maki, Masaoka Sensei demonstrates all of the paired kata of MJER. There are a total of 48 of them. I don`t have the book in front of me, so I can`t remember exactly how the sets are divided up, but the ones I remember are: Tachiuchi no Kurai(standing), Tsumeai no kurai, (seated), Daishozume (daito vs. shoto) and Daikendori. I can check later.

Anyway, it seems from what I can tell that Muso Shinden Ryu is, essentially, Shimomura-ha MJER as taught by Nakayama Hakudo, so it is not at all surprising if the same paired kata are part of the MSR curriculum.

These paired kata are still practiced by Noda Sensei and his students in Kochi City in Shikoku (the original home of MJER) so far as I know. I assume that they are taught in some form in the other MJER lines carried on by the other Kongen no Maki holders that studied with Oe Masamichi Sensei. I know that the Jikishinkai under Miura S. includes at least the 10 Tachiuchi no Kurai in its curriculum.

As a side note, I am under the impression from Masaoka Sensei`s book that the Tachiuchi no Kurai were either formulated by Oe S. himself or were reconfigured by Oe S. when he rearranged and rationalized ther MJER curriculum.

Again, I defer to Hyakutake san on this issue and would be very interested in hearing any more information about this.

Earl

Earl Hartman
14th September 2000, 05:26
Hyakutake san:

Thanks for the information regarding Oe Sensei`s Kongen no Maki recipients. I look forward to any other information you can supply regarding the transmission of MJER.

Earl

Joanne Miller
14th September 2000, 12:36
Hi Earl,

Thanks for the info regarding the paired kata of MJER. Actually I share the same view that Muso Shinden Ryu is essentially Shimomura Ha Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu as well.

I have a feeling the name of the set found in Muso Shinden Ryu paired kata could be the same as those taught in MJER.
Danzaki sensei seem to list the names of the sets as Tachida no Kurai, Kuraidori,Daisho tachizume , Daisho Kyo , Tsumeiai no Kurai & Tsume no kurai. Maybe these names tally with the sets in Masaoka Sensei's book ?


By the way has anyone heard that there was a tori-nawa(arresting with cord) component in MJER or others?

Cheers,

pboylan
14th September 2000, 19:12
MEJR is listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as possessing Nawatori and other things. But there isn't a lot of explanation. I've got a copy of an article from a Japanese journal that I'm working on reading that delves into the history and practice of MJER, but it's slow going with my kanji skills. My suspicion is that since it was primarily a country peasant art, over the course of it's history, a lot of different weapons probably came and went from the syllabus.

Peter Boylan

hyaku
15th September 2000, 01:29
Hello all,

Wow, lots of questions. I have put the answers to this and other threads here.

The first Kongen no Maki was awarded by Hayashizaki Jinsuke. After him there is no clear record of who awarded what to who until after the Kyudai (Ninth head) Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa. After him it is very clear who has received what.

Menkyo Kaiden received within Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu to this day are known as Kongen no Maki.

Oe Sensei formulated the Bangai Nobu.

It is not known who formulated the Tachiuchi no Kurai as in this case the records don't go back as far as the Waza. All that is really certain is that it originated from the Shimomura-ha. I do have a video somewhere from when it was reintroduced to Japan some 17 years ago as Hasegawa Eishin Ryu

Oe Sensei awarded a number a Kongen no Maki. However the wording in some of them is described as "ayashii" (dubious)
I am told that the only official ones he awarded were to Hokiyama Namio and Mori Shigeki.

The present successor of Fukui Torao Sensei is indeed Ikeda Sensei.

Don't want to get involved in Japanese Iai politics. This information is confirmed by a Menkyo Kaiden of the Ryu. Perhaps what is more important is who is continuing the Oe Masamichi tradition and practices in his name rather than who has the paperwork. A lot of "Ha" seem to come and go. For example Oe Sensei left the Shimomura ha leaderless in becoming the head of Tanimura. But it still continues today. Politics, politics!

On a lighter note I have discoverd that Miyamoto Musashi had probably been neutered. If I have to do anymore practice with my feet so close together I am sure to do myself a serious injury!

Hyakutake Colin

Robert Reinberger
15th September 2000, 15:51
hyaku,

thank you very much for the informations.

However - and without wanting to be involved in the politics myself, but only for personal reasons - I'm still interested in learning how Sekiguchi-ha is viewed (in terms of reputation, authenticity and legitimacy) in the Japanese Iai world outside of Komei Juku.

If anybody is willing to share his insights regarding that, I would also appreciate a personal mail, and of course offer to handle the answer discreet.

Thanks again,

yours sincerely,
Robert

[Edited by Robert Reinberger on 09-15-2000 at 10:40 AM]

Earl Hartman
18th September 2000, 02:24
Dear Hyakutake san:

Thank you for your reply on the subject of the Kongen no Maki.

I also have no particular intetrest in getting involved in iai politics, and although I appreciate your information, it rasies a number of troubling questions. Unfortunately, it seems that if you do iai with a particular teacher you are involved in the politics whether you want to be or not.

I have a number of questions, and while I realize they touch on extremely sensitive subjects, I ask them with all respect. I realize that these sorts of questions are not usually asked in Japan, but while I know that no satisfactory answer can be given, at least from my personal perspective, I feel compelled to ask them anyway. At the same time, you need not feel compelled to reply if you feel that it is inappropriate.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from your information is that, at the very least, the person from whom you received your information is of the opinion that the Kongen no Maki that Oe Sensei awarded to Masaoka Sensei is somehow illegitimate, or, as you say "ayashii" (suspicious/dubious).

This brings up a number of other questions, to wit:

1) Why would Oe Sensei award a Kongen no Maki to someone who did not deserve it?

2) By ayashii, is it meant that the scroll has been somehow falsified? If so, who falsified it and why?

3) If the scroll has not been falsified, but is simply incomplete, what would be the reason for this? What purpose could be served by awarding an incomplete scroll? What would Oe Sensei`s motivation have been, especially since other complete scrolls had been awarded to two other senseis, thus assuring the continuation of the school?

4) If Masaoka Sensei`s scroll was not "official", this indicates that there is some other criteria, other than the Kongen no Maki itself, that determines which Kongen no Maki were official and which were not. May I ask what these criteria might be?

These questions are, in some way, rhetorical. As I said, you do not need to answer them if you do not want to. I have done some research on Masaoka Sensei`s life, and it appears that there was a falling out between him and the other direct disciples of Oe Sensei, which seemed to have something to do with the fact that he left Shikoku to attend the Budo Senmon Gakko, and that after the war he was instrumental in forming the iaido department under the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, which appeared to be in competition with the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei which had been established somewhat earlier, as I understand it. In addition, Masaoka Sensei seems to have had some sort of relationship with Nakayama Hakudo (how close it was I don`t know). According to what I have read, it does seem that some MJER swordsmen who had been associated with the ZNIR left and joined the ZNKR iaido group with Masaoka Sensei shortly after it was formed.

In any case, my efforts in this area are strictly in the service of impartial historical research. Masaoka Sensei was my teacher, and nothing will change that or my feelings about him. I only wanted to get to the truth of the matter.

Again, thank you for your efforts.

Yours,
Earl

Bufu Ikan
27th September 2000, 16:57
Hello All,

Interesting discussion, I read some of the post and would like to comment on the subject of viewing Makimono. Dealing with Makimono and Soke'ship is a very delicate matter to the Japanese masters. Unless a person is a long time discpile of a Shihan or a Soke of a Ryu getting answers or viewing certian documents sometime may be close to impossible. Imagine someone who you barely know ask you to show him your bank account info or even on a smaller scale to see your family photos.


Anyhow something to think about,

pboylan
28th September 2000, 19:11
Eddie Divantman wrote:

Interesting discussion, I read some of the post and would like to comment on the subject of viewing Makimono. Dealing with Makimono and Soke'ship is a very delicate matter to the
Japanese masters. Unless a person is a long time discpile of a Shihan or a Soke of a Ryu getting answers or viewing certian documents sometime may be close to impossible. Imagine someone who you barely know ask you to show him your bank account info or even on a smaller scale to see your family photos.
***********************

Actually, it's not usually that difficult. If you have good credintials/introductions, it's often quite possible to see all but the most closely held of secrets. Many of these documents regularly get published in books and magazines. The reason for this is that there really isn't very much information in most makimono. The real knowledge can only be gained through training.

Peter Boylan

Scott Irey
29th September 2000, 07:20
Robert Reinberger asked if there was any information about Yamanouchi Toyotake. I am by no means a historian on MJER and almost all of my information comes from oral transmission, so take my information for what you feel it is worth. I practice Yamanouchi-ha Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu under Sato Yoshio of Sendai, Japan. In our tradition Yamanouchi sensei is not veiwed as the 18th soke of MJER. He received his kongen no maki from Oe Masamichi. This made Yamanoudhi sensei on of several 18th generation inheritors of the style. Now my understanding is that upwards of 10 students of Oe Masamichi recieved kongen no maki but only Hogiyama Namio was designated as the formal successor of the lineage. However in the Yamanouchi-ha there is still discussion as to whether or not Oe sensei ever really intended for their to be a single successor to the style, but for the most part the Shisui-kai (the political body of the Yamanouchi-ha) regards Hogiyama Namio and not Yamanouchi Toyotake as the 19th Soke of MJER. I am taught that regardless of political position, a holder of kongen no maki is an inheritor of the style and does have the right to award kongen no maki to his/her own students. Judging by the information that Collin and Earl have posted this seems to be the concensous of the various lineages of MJER out there today. Yamanouchi sensei had many students and awarded Kongen no maki to some of them. I would have to ask Sato sensei the names of the other recipiants in Yamanuchi sensei's dojo that recieved Kongen no maki. In our heritage Yamanouchi Toyotake is followed by Sakagami Kaneo then by Uno Mataji followed by Kawakubo Takaji and finally Sato Yoshio. There are of course several other recipiants of kongen no maki through out the Yamanouchi ha history and I would assume that Sekiguchi Takaaki's line falls in here as the Shisui-kai has a formal relationship with the Komei-kai. I hope that was at least a little bit of the information on Yamanouchi Toyotake that you were looking for.

Regards,

hyaku
29th September 2000, 11:12
Very sorry Mr Hartman

I didn't know you had posted a message with regard to you're Sensei's certification. I like you try to keep out of the politics. I can see there are problems in the west but over here they are if anything more worse. I do know one teacher who plagued his teacher for a menkyo kaiden and in not receiving it has now joined the Sekiguchi Ryu. A lot of people who opted for the ZNKR Seitei Iai system some years ago jumped up a few dan grades.

I have also met some self proclaimed Soke here too, who don't even practice but take the title as they consider it a family right as there father was a eacher of a particular school etc etc

The list is endless and I suppose this has beeen going on for years and years. Hence the unanswered questions of who does what and where it comes from. I jokingly mention it to a well know Iai teacher. He said "Please don't expect too much. We are all humans". I nice comment from one of a race of people that usually uniquely think they "are unique".

I should heve been more precise in my last post. It seems the wording on the what seems to be numerous certificates issued by Oe Sensei are different. What this wording is I don't know and I suppose no one else will ever do so unless they could get there hands on a few scrolls issued by him and get an expert to translate them.

Again my apologies. I would not want to be the instigator a political feud. I was just trying to be helpful in passing on information from a Menkyo Kaiden of the Ryu.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

[Edited by hyaku on 09-29-2000 at 05:56 AM]

Jack B
30th September 2000, 23:30
Is Uno Mataji the same person as Onoe Masayoshi? Some of these names are close enough to make me wonder if they are readings of the same kanji.

Lineage 1 (Sekiguchi-ha MJER):
Yamanouchi Toyotaka 18th
Kono Kanemitsu 19th
Onoe Masayoshi 20th
Sekiguchi (Komei) Takaaki 21st

Lineage 2 (Yamanouchi-ha MJER):
Yamanouchi Toyotaka 18th
Sakagami Kaneo 19th
Uno Mataji 20th
Kawakubo Takaji 21st
Sato Yoshio 22nd (Shisui-kai)

I believe Ohmori Masao (Rakuto Eishin Ryu) was also a student of Uno Mataji.

Thanks,
Jack Bieler

Robert Reinberger
30th September 2000, 23:44
Mr. Irey,

thank you very much for the informations you gave.

Also thanks to the other posters, a lot of interesting contributions here!

Regards,

Robert

Scott Irey
1st October 2000, 06:20
Just to make things clear if I did not previously do so, the Yamanouchi ha does not cosider Yamanouchi Toyotake to be the 18th soke of MJER. Sato Yoshio to the best of my knowledge does recognise Hogiyam Namio's line as the legitimate line of soke in MJER. All of the teachers I listed in our lineage are recipiants of Kongen no maki and none considered themselves soke. Some in the Yamanouchi ha do not recognise any soke after Oe Masamichi, but none to my knowledge make any cclaims to any of the line being soke. Uno Mataji and Onoe Masayoshi are not the same person. Uno sensei awarded 2 Kongen no maki that I am aware of one went to Yamakoshi sensei of Kyoto (whom I believe is still teaching in Kyoto and last time I visited his dojo he had 2 students practicing MJER with nodachi...quite a site to see) and the other went to Kawakubo Takaiji of Sendai. Kawakubo sensei awarded Kongen no maki to Sato Yoshio and Sato Masaki (no relation). Yamakoshi sensei has awarded Kongen no maki to Takahashi Tsunoru. Takahashi sensei teaches with Sato Yoshio and Sato Masaki in Sendai. I hope there is no confusion on the stance of the Yamanouchi ha in regards to soke of the MJER.

Earl Hartman
2nd October 2000, 21:18
This has turned into a wide ranging discussion.

MSR vs. MJER

According to Masaoka S., in the hidensho (secret scrolls) of the 9th headmaster, Hayashi Rokudaiu Morimasa S. (d. 1732) the name of the school is given as Muso (Peerless) Jikiden. The Shinden Ryu scrolls were created by the 2nd generation leader of the Shimomura-ha, Yamakawa Kyuzo Yukio S.(d. 1848), and a Shinden Ryu "hissho" (secret scroll) apparently gives the name of the school as Muso (Peerless) Shinden Eishin Ryu Batto Heiho. Most people in my practice group referred to it simply as Hasegawa Eishin Ryu. In any case, it seems quite obvious that both versions of "Muso" ("Peerless" and "Dream Thought") predate both Oe S. and Nakayama S. and obviously refer to the same school. It seems quite significant to me that the Shinden Ryu scrolls were created by the Shimomura-ha, so it appears that Nakayama S. thus had a valid historcal reason for choosing that name. This also pretty much seals the case that MSR is MJER Shimomura-ha, in my opinion.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists Nakayama S. as the 18th headmaster of the MSR, indicating that there was/is an opinion that the MSR is the continuation of an older school. If one accepts that MSR is MJER Shimomura-ha under a different name, this makes sense. In any case, Nakayama S. learned Shimomura-ha from Hosokawa Yoshiaki S. (d. 1923), the 15th generation of Shimomura-ha (15th generation in this case means 15th generation from Hayashizaki. I'm not sure how many generations he is after the split, probably four). Nakayama had approached Yukimune Sadayoshi S. (Shimomura-ha) and Oe S. for instruction but had been rebuffed since he was not from Tosa. Masaoka S. also shows Nakayama S. receiving instruction from Morimoto Tokumi S. of the Tanimura-ha, who was a contemporary of Oe S., both of whom learned from Goto Masakatsu S., the 16th generation headmaster.

Official Headmaster vs. Kongen no Maki

Masaoka S. never claimed to be the "official" 18th generation headmaster of MJER, and my purpose in researching this issue has never been to try to put such a claim forward. Regarding the Kongen no Maki, there is a world of difference between saying that the wording in the Kongen no Maki that Oe S. awarded to him was "ayashii" (dubious/suspicious) and saying that the various Kongen no Maki scrolls simply had "different" wording. I appreciate the input from the other iai practitioners who have provided more information regarding other Kongen no Maki awarded by Oe S. Oe S. spent his life making sure that his iai would live on in the post-Tokugawa world, which would probably account for the number of Kongen no Maki that he awarded.

As far as I can tell from my research, there were some who believed that Masaoka S.'s iai was not pure MJER due to his relationship with Nakayama S. Nakayama S. was from Ishikawa Prefecture, and Masaoka S. lived in Kanazawa, the capital of the prefecture, for many years after his graduation from the Budo Senmon Gakko in Kyoto, and then returned there later after spending the post-war years back on Shikoku. It is probable that Masaoka S.'s iai was influenced to some degree by Nakayama S.'s interpretation of the Shimomura-ha iai that he had learned. However, from Masaoka S.'s point of view, all he was doing was researching the other branch of his own school.

Earl

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-02-2000 at 04:10 PM]

Shiga
25th May 2001, 14:51
Dear Mr. Smith,

Thank you for your reply--it actually will help to clarify my question a bit.
What I am asking about is the organization aspect.

Lets say the honbu represents the organization, the Menkyo holder then creates a whole new organization--still the same art. Is this ever acceptable?

Anyone have any thoughts?

--Jesse Duran

Shiga
25th May 2001, 14:55
Dear Mr. Smith,

Thank you for your response--it will actually help to clarify my question a bit.
I am asking specifically about the organizational aspect of things.

Lets say the honbu represents the organization--the Menkyo holder (in my scenario) leaves this organization and starts a new one--same art.
Is this acceptable in the Koryu traditions?

Anyone have any thoughts?

--Jesse Duran

Shiga
25th May 2001, 15:02
Looks like I pushed a few of the wrong buttons!
My reply above was meant to be under Mr. Smith's reply on the original thread.
Is there anyway the moderator can fix this?
Very embarrased
Very sorry

--Jesse Duran

Devon Smith
25th May 2001, 17:24
Strange...your original post, and my reply...vanished!

Anyway, to answer your question (at least according to the style of gendai jujutsu I study, Hakkoryu) any holders of menkyo are still under the umbrella of the honbu dojo and answer to the nidai soke. If one chooses to go against honbu's rules by creating a new, separate organization teaching the cirriculum independently from honbu, or breaks other rules of honbu, they would almost certainly face expulsion (hamon). This is the result. (http://www.izzy.net/~pilot/expulsion.html)

It is likely that there are as many exceptions to these types of rules as there are schools/styles of Japanese martial arts. Mine's only one example.

Devon


whoops...now I see I replied to the wrong post!

Soulend
25th May 2001, 17:53
It seems that founding an entirely new organization would be a bit insulting to the organization that granted menkyo kaiden.

Wow, Mr. Smith..looks like the Hakkoryu doesn't mess around. I wonder, what legal recourse, if any, would they have if he used the Hakkoryu name anyway? Is it copyrighted?

Devon Smith
25th May 2001, 19:36
I wonder, what legal recourse, if any, would they have if he used the Hakkoryu name anyway? Is it copyrighted?


Yes, the name and other related items are patented/trademarked/copyrighted in the U.S.A., Japan, and several European countries.

Devon

Benjamin Peters
27th July 2001, 00:21
Dear members,

Is anyone able to assist me in defining what actually the concept of passing on 'Densho' actually is (setting aside the fact that it contains technical knowledge) ?

Is it a concept of an award (ie comes with menkyo kaiden) or just information ?

Many people nowadays are passing on detailed notes on the levels of shoden chuden etc etc - is this still considered 'Densho' per se ?

Ben Peters:p

Soulend
28th July 2001, 15:53
Densho means transmission of written techniques. It is one of the ways Den (transmission) takes place. Transmission by word of mouth is kuden. Transmission from a divine spirit or deity is Shinden. Menkyo Kaiden is complete transmission of the system.

I don't think it is so much like an award than it is simply the passing along of a ryuha's teachings, so that the receiver can practice and pass down the tradition to the next person. The kanji for 'den' is written in kanji as a composite of the words for 'rotating person'- the receiver turns and passes the knowledge to another.


Many people nowadays are passing on detailed notes on the levels of shoden chuden etc etc - is this still considered 'Densho' per se ?

In classical arts it is usually anything but detailed. Seemingly vague analogies and aphorisms which would be meaningless to any but initiates of that particular art are used in order to keep the teachings secret from prying eyes and ears. "The weight of the shrike bends the branch" or "The dragonfly always alights on the post" means something to one who has received densho-and perhaps Mr. Miyagi- but to others, nothing. But I suppose what you're talking about could be considered a type of Densho...

Jari Virta
1st October 2001, 12:16
What do you think about supposedly koryu traditions without makimono? For example the Taura Muso Ryu that went public in 1989 claims koryu lineage, but has no makimono and they say the art was taught in secret and especially the advanced stuff was only taught from father to son (or in similar manner: to one person only in total secrecy)?

Is it common for a koryu art to make such claims and are they usually dubious or normal?

PS. Here's a link to their site: http://www.bujyutsu.com

Jari Virta
1st October 2001, 12:48
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Not a bad group of guys but as far as their karate goes they are not really "old" style karate.

Yes, I know about the karate, I know a couple of people who were previously members (one of them an instructor) of Renshinkan. But I am only interested in the Taura Muso Ryu Bujutsu, which is a family art of the current head and has nothing to do with the karate (except that the man does them both).

pboylan
3rd October 2001, 19:33
There are ryu that don't have makimono. This just makes their veracity harder to confirm. I happen to do an iai art with no makimono. Fortunately, it's history and lineage have been open, so the lack of makimono is no obstacle to verifying it's historical claims. Not having tried to research Taura Muso Ryu, I can't make any statements in any direction about it.

Peter Boylan
Mugendo Budogu LLC
Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
http://www.budogu.com

fifthchamber
10th January 2002, 14:45
Hello all,
I was recently re-reading the "Gorin no Sho" and the "Heiho Kaden Sho" when this question came to mind..It is not aimed at any one Ryu or group but generally..
If scrolls like the two mentioned above were considered to be the 'Okuden' and 'secret principles' of the ryu that they were written for when and why were the scrolls allowed to be made 'public'?
Possible reasons that I could think of was that once the feudal era ended it may have allowed them (Ryu-ha Densho) to be seen as an anachronism to the 'modern state' and ideas..losing their 'secret' use and public interest...Or possibly that the Ryu shihan/soke saw the need to more publicly 'advertise' the teachings and morals contained in them.
To my mind the densho were the essence of the ryu and this was one of the main reasons that they were so zealously guarded by the teachers and trainees of the schools..often over Keppan, and certain promises of a slow death in hell(s). All the ryu seemed to have some form of promise to prevent te teachings being spread from the school. So what caused the change in viewpoint of those ryu that allowed their densho to be admitted into the public domain?
Any and all insight or leads to information on this would be appreciated.
Domo arigato!
Abayo.

Jeff Hamacher
11th January 2002, 08:05
Originally posted by fifthchamber
If scrolls like the two mentioned above were considered to be the 'Okuden' and 'secret principles' of the ryu that they were written for when and why were the scrolls allowed to be made 'public'?
you'd have to ask someone training in Niten'ichi-ryu (the school of swordsmanship based on Musashi's teachings) to verify my comments, but i'll give you a possible answer.

while the contents of Go Rin no Sho or Heiho Kadensho reveal a certain amount of important information about Musashi's martial art i don't think we can conclude that the ryu's "secrets" begin and end there. there is only so much to be gleaned from those writings and i think that the "true hiden" would only be available to those who are given permission to train in the ryu. in short, the two documents in question are not, as far as i would understand it, the hiden of the Niten'ichi-ryu.

Daigoro
11th January 2002, 14:38
Hi all,

1st ->

Go rin no sho = Musashi / Niten ichi ryu heiho
Heiho Kadensho = Yagyu Sekishusai / Yagyu shinkage ryu heiho

(ie they are not both Musashi's)

2nd ->

I think a lot of makimono/densho that were created were done in a manner whereby persons not initiated into the meanings would not understand them. The documentation themselves were simply a catalogue of techniques (maybe a symbolic item too?).

Thus, though the documents may become public (or were stolen by the next door dojo) they would be, essentially, meaningless. Have you ever looked at the TSKSR Deity and the Sword books? Can you learn TSKSR from them?

Cheers
- George

Edinburgh Kendo Club, Scotland
http://www.edinburghkendo.co.uk/

fifthchamber
11th January 2002, 14:55
Hello all,
Yes..Both of the points raised above make sense to me..In both Densho the phrase "This is transmitted orally" is used indicating a need for 'correct' instruction from a Sensei of the school who HAS been 'initiated' into the trust of the Shihan/Soke.
I was just wondering if anyone had information on why the knowledge was allowed out to the public...I (obviously) don't know but it seems fairly certain that neither Yagyu Sekishusai nor Miyamoto Musashi intended to 'publish' their findings beyond their Ryu and I basically was asking whether anyone had knowledge on 'when, why, and who' actually decided to introduce the scrolls to the public... Maybe it requires someone who was alive during the time when the decisions were made!!! (oh well!)
Thanks for the help so far though.

Rennis
11th January 2002, 21:34
I have no specific information on the two examples given above, but densho could be "made public" for any number of reasons. Sometimes it has to do with the ryu itself, sometimes it has no connection. One of the simpler reasons I don't see put forth much is the fact that over the course of the history of any given school, quite a few copies of various densho would have been made so you have alot of them floating around. The people these densho were given to eventually pass on and these scrolls just sort of sit around in the family with no real purpose or meaning to them and they might eventually be sold to collectors or given to people who have an interest in them and can make some use of them. This is not too uncommon and really has nothing to do with the ryu itself. It's sort of like going through grandpa's things after he dies. You keep the things that are important to you, but you can't keep everything so the things that don't have much value to you get handed on to someone else who is more interested in them.

Sometimes there are very good reasons for making these documents available to the public. A good example I can give dates from World War Two. During the chaos of the war, the soke of one school was moving out of the area the school had traditionally be tramismitted in and he donated all the densho he had to a local preservation society in the event that something should happen to him during the war. This unfortunately turned out to be a very insightful move on his part as he relocated to Hiroshima to live with his son soon after and the entire family was killed in the bombing of Hiroshima. Thanks to him being willing to give up his densho to a public organization, these documents are still available for members of the various shihanke of that ryu to go and study.

Densho become available to the public for many reasons, regardless of the intent of the original authors, much like people's dairies occasionally get published even though that was probably not their original intent. In every case, the reasons for it have to do with the individuals involved so it is hard to say there are any real common reasons for it. It usually is just chance and circumstance. Being what they are, densho tend to pop up occassionally in book collector circles. To the average Japanese densho are little more than old books so if they worry about anything, they would worry about making sure they are well taken care due to thier possible historical value and issues of maintaining the secrecy of the content is more often than not non-issues. Not mention most people can't really read them anyways.

Not sure if this helps at all but...

Rennis Buchner

Jeff Hamacher
12th January 2002, 04:16
Originally posted by Daigoro
Go rin no sho = Musashi / Niten ichi ryu heiho
Heiho Kadensho = Yagyu Sekishusai / Yagyu shinkage ryu heiho

(ie they are not both Musashi's)
thanks for the tip, George. i was thinking of Musashi's Heiho Sanjugo Kajo, which i obviously confused with Yagyu's document.

meijin2k
11th December 2002, 05:48
After reading about all of these arts that are or are not koryu, I am wondering if anyone can expound on the licensing (menkyo) system that they used.

I have heard of a license called mokoroku-sho ("written in the first half of the book" I believe it was translated as), mokoroku-go, just plain mokoroku, menkyo, menkyo kaiden, kaiden, etc.

I know they cannot all be the same, but what are the guidelines to look for?

Thanks!

David

fifthchamber
11th December 2002, 15:44
Hi.
There are individual systems used in each Ryuha unfortunately. Each one will use a variation on a theme and often use completely different names for the certification..
As an idea of what I mean here is a list from the 'Nihon Kobudo Soran' published by the Kobudo Kyokai and listing the Ryuha that they acknowledge as Koryu..

Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu: Nyumon, Mokuroku, Menkyo, Menkyo Kaiden.
Tamiya Ryu Iaijutsu: Mokuroku (Go-Dan), Menkyo (Shichi-hachi Dan), Kaiden.
Shinto Munen Ryu Kenjutsu: Kirigami, Mokuroku, Jun-Menkyo, Menkyo, Kaiden.
Shinto Muso Ryu Jojutsu: Oku-Irisho (Not too sure on pronounciation of this..), Sho-Mokuroku, Go-Mokuroku, Menkyo.
Muhi Muteki Ryu Jojutsu: Hanburi, Mokuroku Menkyo, Kaiden.
Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu: Hiden Mokuroku, Hiden Okugi, Hiogi no Koto, Kaiden no Koto.
Saburi Ryu Sojutsu: Shoden, Menkyo, Kaiden, Shigoku.
Kashima Shinto Ryu Kenjutsu: Mokuroku, Inka, Menkyo, Kaiden.
Hokushin Itto Ryu Kenjutsu: Sho-Mokuroku, Chu-Mokuroku Menkyo, Dai-Mokuroku Kaiden.
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjutsu: Omote, Oten (Daiten?), Shoten (Koten?), Tengusho, Tengusho-Oku, Mokuroku, and Inka....

I am unsure of the correct pronounciation of many of the terms I have just listed but maybe someone here can correct me on them?
As you can see it is not at all a clear and easy system and depends greatly upon the founder and their own take on the use of grades....(Probably one of the main reasons for the Kyu-Dan system I guess..).
Many of the listed terms will come up as grades used in other Koryu but there may also be others so it is by no means an easy to follow system.
There are more listed but that should help maybe...
Yours.

Charles Mahan
11th December 2002, 17:13
In the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Seitokai, there are 10 dan grades and a several intermediate licensing. As I understand it, between 6th and 7th dan comes the rank Renshi, which is kinda like an associate teachers license. Between 7th and 8th is Kyoshi, which is kinda like a full teacher's license. Between 8th and 9th is, and I'm not certain on this one, hanshi, which is a kind of master teacher's rank. Then between 9th and 10th is I think, another license the name of which eludes me at the moment. Renshi is the first teaching license, but is not considered necessary to begin instructing. There are perfectly good instructors in the states that only hold 4th dan ranks. Usually they should have higher ranks, but do not get to Japan often enough to test when they are eligible.

Hope this helps.

Eishin Ryu also uses Menkyo Kaiden and Kongen no Maki, although I have no idea what the criteria are for these, although they are only VERY rarely awarded.

Jack B
11th December 2002, 21:14
The ranks in MJER Seitokai are 1-6 dan, renshi, 7 dan, kyoshi, 8 dan, jun-hanshi, 9 dan, hanshi, 10 dan. These are not classical menjo however, just teaching ranks inserted into the dan structure.

I have read posts referring to menkyo kaiden but it may be synonymous with Kongen no Maki. The latter apparently implies complete transmission and is one of three items that validate the soke.

meijin2k
11th December 2002, 23:06
Thanks all for the replies...it is interesting to see how many of the license titles are repeated amongst the different ryuha.

A follow up question if I might...is there a correct term to use for a "time in rank" qualification? I saw it once somewhere and should have written it down then.

Much thanks!

rrbraxton
16th March 2003, 19:49
What about this for a topic:

Are their any or shall I say older...more traditional ryu ha that may still use the Menkyo Ranking system and would it fit more into the way of "jutsu" vs "do". Is this a system used strickly for the transmission of "densho".
Was or is this it's structure? Do many Foreigners Have One?
Shoden
Chuden
Okuden/Mokuroku
Menkyo
Menkyo Kaiden
Was this reserved for only Deshi?
How does all this relate to Renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi?

Respecfully,

rrbraxton

Budoka 34
16th March 2003, 21:10
One that comes to mind here in the states is John Viol Shihan.
He holds Menkyu Kaiden in several Ryu if I'm not mistaken.
He is the Chief instructor of the Sei Shin Kan.

Link: www.seishinkan.com

Hope this helps.

:smilejapa

Sochin
16th March 2003, 22:30
O'Sensei Richard Kim, late of the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, (whether they ackowledge it or not), used to teach in the Menkyo system.

One of his first students in North America, Sensei Castigliona sought out this training and has brought his Aoinagi Style into its precepts, see http://www.aoinagi.org/.

It's a facinating journey...

hyaku
17th March 2003, 00:18
Hello there rrbraxton

There have been a few threads in the past on this.

Your confused? So am I sometimes. I am pleased and proud that my Menkyo Kaiden was awarded by my ryu. My Dan grades are a seperate entity awarded by the association and I gave up the dan grade trail some years ago after experiencing the "Not what you can do, but its also who you know" attitude.

I don't like to think of Menkyo, etc as a rank. More of as award for lifetimes achievement. I would hardy describe it as of the links says "Legitimate Menkyo Tecnologies" (their mis-spelling not mine lol).

I think its fair to describe the Dan-i as rank. And Menkyo etc as Shogo.
Two systems and two paths not to be confused with each other.

Is it related to Renshi Kyoshi Hanshi? No. If i remember that's another Shogo system that was started by the original Butokukai. Not the newly formed one.

I know some people are quite fond of linking up for example Nandan Kyoshi,
Hachidan Hanshi. After all ZNKR does offer both rank and awards? But it sounds a bit silly and a mis-use of words saying 8th Dan Menkyo Kaiden.

What I like most of all is simply being announced by my name. Then you can get into the area or dojo and show people who you really are regardless of all those bits of paper.

Hyakutake Colin

(I'm well Certified)

fifthchamber
17th March 2003, 14:51
Hi.
I listed a few of the full ranking orders of various Koryu on this thread
Menkyo systems.. (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15858)
....These Ryuha were listed in a fairly recent book and although there are many others for sure, this list was a good basic start for me....
Enjoy.

fifthchamber
18th March 2003, 14:24
Hi Russ,
Hey!!.....I just translate the things! You think I read em'?:D :D
Thanks for the clarification on that. It makes sense with the Kanji anyways....I had figured it for an admission grade. Like a basic white belt I guess but had no real idea.
Regards.

Meik Skoss
18th March 2003, 14:42
Okuiri-sho is, as R. Ebert says, an "agreement/contract" between a teacher (i.e., a menkyo kaiden) and a person to teach all of the Shinto Muso-ryu curriculum (exclusive of the gokui waza). It isn't, per se, a license. Other Shinto Muso-ryu licenses (sho mokuroku, go mokuroku, menkyo, and menkyo kaiden) cover various parts of the curriculum and imply a level of competence in those waza.

Each ryu has its own schema for what licenses are called; some of the terms are identical, some are different, and identical terms may refer to very different levels of licensure in different ryu. It is all, as usual, "case by case."

Hope this helps.

coyote
21st July 2003, 02:53
I'd like to know how menkyo kaiden is transmitted. Since this transmission represents the whole knowledge of the ryuha, I wonder if there's some kind of ritual or esoterica involved in it or if this is just a formality to recognize the high level the exponent has already achieved.

Regards,

John Lindsey
21st July 2003, 03:07
Depends on the ryu, and the teacher. It can be a very formal affair or simply sent through the mail! I think we all expect it to be a this big, formal event dripping with esoterica, but it can be anti-climatic in its lack of such stuff.

The student will have known the teacher for many years, and their relationship will normally be very close. The lack of esoterica is often replaced with lectures and explanations on the material in the scroll. But, as I said, there is no one way of doing it...

Brian Stokes
23rd July 2003, 20:07
Hey Coyote,

Just a point -- you stated that Menkyo Kaiden represents that the "whole knowledge" of a ryuha has been transmitted to the individual receiving this credential. This, however, is not true of some of the older koryu. There is one higher "license," that being granted from the present Soke to future Soke. (This is true in the tradition that I am involved with.) From what I understand there is a whole list of techniques that only the headmasters of said traditions know.

Brian Stokes

Mike B. Johnson
2nd January 2004, 21:21
Hi,

With all the controversy surrounding the Tanemura situation, I got to thinking. How many legit Menkyo Kaiden holders are there in the west?

And by "legit" I mean people teaching a traditional Japanese system with a verifiable history. Disqualified, are people offering Menkyo Kaiden in non-traditional systems founded outside Japan. An example would be "American Karate" or modern jujutsu systems like BJJ.

Perhaps riding the fence to some but definitely accepted in my mind would be.....Toshishiro Obata's Shinkendo or Chuck Clark's Jiyushinkai. If awarded a Menkyo Kaiden in Shinkendo or Jiyushinkai by one of these gentlemen I'd accept it as legit even though the system was founded outside Japan.

Disclaimer!

I realized this list does not necessarily reflect the only authorities of budo at the highest levels of experience teaching here in the USA. People like Quentin Chambers, Larry Bieri, Mike & Diane Skoss, Hunter Armstrong, Ellis Amdur, Guy Power, Don Angier, Karl Friday, Nathan Scott, Dave Lowry etc.... hold very advanced licenses or skills. They just do not possess Menkyo Kaiden licenses.



Here's all the legit Menkyo Kaiden holders I know of. I'm sure there are more. Please feel free to add those I am unfamiliar with.


Phil Relnick / Shinto Muso ryu - awarded by Tsueno Nishioka

Toby Threadgill / Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu - awarded by Yukiyoshi Takamura

Pat Hendricks / Iwama ryu Aiki Ken & Aiki Jo - awarded by Morihiro Saito


BJ

John Cole
2nd January 2004, 22:05
There are at least five Hakkoryu Jujutsu Menkyo Kaiden in the United States presently recognized and in good standing with the Hombu Dojo in Japan.

Mike B. Johnson
2nd January 2004, 22:20
Mr Cole,

Isn't Hakko ryu unique in that a Menkyo Kaiden does not symbolize the highest teaching license awarded? I believe the highest license awarded in Hakko ryu is called a "San Dai Kichu"

The only two holders of this license in the US that I know of are Dennis Palumbo in Colorado and Brian Workman in .....Oregon??? I also understand there is someone in Ohio holding a "San Dai Kichu".....or is that Workman?

Thanks for the response.

BJ

John Cole
2nd January 2004, 22:31
Yes, the highest ranking in Hakkoryu Jujutsu is Sandaikichu (Three Great Foundation Pillars).

Within the West Coast branch of the organization that I am a part of the license holders are as follows:

Brian Workman, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
Ralph Verde, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
Steve Glaser, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
Gordon Kiokawa, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu
Scott Newkirk, Menkyo Kaiden Shihan Sandaikichu

Best regards,
John Cole

[Edited for corrections by request of the author. NS]

Mike B. Johnson
2nd January 2004, 22:39
Hi,

I just remembered the name of the Hakko ryu guy in Ohio holding a "San Dai Kichu". His name is Michael LaMonica. I believe he is a police officer who was also a student of Sensei Kaminoda of the Tokyo police.

BJ

John Lindsey
2nd January 2004, 23:37
James Wright- Asayama Ichiden-ryu. He is from Scotland, but lives in Japan.

Mike B. Johnson
3rd January 2004, 00:31
Hello,

Guys, Here's another one I was just notified about via e-mail.

Professor William Bodiford / Kashima Shin ryu, Menkyo Kaiden/Shihan

BJ

Brian Griffin
3rd January 2004, 00:46
If I recall correctly, Richard Pietrelli received menkyo kaiden in Kashima Shin Ryu, also.

If you're going to include Hakko Ryu, which originated in the '40s, I demand equal consideration for Danzan Ryu, which was founded in the '20s. Okazaki sensei issued kaiden no sho to a number of his students in 1948. One of the recipients, Sig Kufferath, did likewise in 1993. Tony Janovich and Bob Hudson followed his example just last February.

At present there are a couple of dozen DZR practitioners holding legitimate kaiden diplomas.

Ron Beaubien
3rd January 2004, 04:42
Hello,

Mike B. Johnson wrote:

"I realized this list does not necessarily reflect the only authorities of budo at the highest levels of experience teaching here in the USA. People like Quentin Chambers, Larry Bieri, Mike & Diane Skoss, Hunter Armstrong, Ellis Amdur, Guy Power, Don Angier, Karl Friday, Nathan Scott, Dave Lowry etc.... hold very advanced licenses or skills. They just do not possess Menkyo Kaiden licenses."

Just to clarify things a bit, I believe that some of the individuals above hold ranks that are in every way equal to menkyo kaiden. Some ryuha simply do not use the name "menkyo kaiden" but instead offer ranks using different names which are every bit as valid, being the top rank or license offered by the school and passing on the complete transmission.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mike B. Johnson
3rd January 2004, 07:50
Ron,

I agree with you. How about this? Lets say Menkyo Kaiden or equivalent license that is symbolic of the complete transmission of a traditional ryu. That's what we're curious about afterall.

BJ

Rennis
3rd January 2004, 08:09
Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson

Disclaimer!

I realized this list does not necessarily reflect the only authorities of budo at the highest levels of experience teaching here in the USA. People like Quentin Chambers, Larry Bieri, Mike & Diane Skoss, Hunter Armstrong, Ellis Amdur, Guy Power, Don Angier, Karl Friday, Nathan Scott, Dave Lowry etc.... hold very advanced licenses or skills. They just do not possess Menkyo Kaiden licenses.



To clear up one obvious error here, Karl Friday does have menkyo kaiden in Kashima Shinryu. I don't presume to speak for anyone else on this list, but in Karl Friday's case, the fact that he has menkyo kaiden is well published so....

Best,
Rennis Buchner

Ron Beaubien
3rd January 2004, 10:30
Hello,

In the case of Buko-ryu there is currently no rank named "menkyo kaiden" given in the tradition however there are several Westerners who hold the top rank in the system and so I believe deserve to me mentioned.

In the book Keiko Shokon (http://koryu.com/store/ks3.html), Nitta Suzuyo lists her students who have received teaching licenses in Toda-ha Buko-ryu Naginatajutsu:

"The first person to whom I gave a teaching license was Kini Collins, but we have lost contact, and I believe she is no longer active in budo. All the following have teaching licenses from me: Ellis Amdur (in the U.S.), Pierre and Claire Simon (in France), Meik Skoss (in the U.S.), Kent Sorensen (currently in Japan), and Liam Keeley (in Australia). Those who teach directly under my direction are known as shihan-dai, while those who are de facto independent as head of their own dojos I recognize as shihan, and to them I have given seals with which to authenticate any licenses they may choose to issue." (Page 74)

As those who have lived in Japan know, things are rarely black and white. A few notes of my own as in the case of Toda-ha Buko-ryu as the subject of rank becomes a little complicated:

I was told by Nitta sensei that all of the people above have received the okuden mokuroku, a makimono listing not only all of the techniques that have been directly transmitted (i.e. the main curriculum or honden), but also the school's lineage, history, etc. She also mentioned that when she gives the makimono it means that the student has learned all she has to teach and that it is basically Buko-ryu's current equivalent of a menkyo kaiden in other systems.

In addition, Nitta sensei awards shihan-dai and shihan license to those she allows to teach as mentioned above. It seems possible that someone could be awarded the okuden mokuroku (apparently the top technical rank) but still not be allowed to teach (i.e. not have a shihan-dai or shihan license) although I know of no one currently in that situation here in Japan although there may have been in the past.

Claire Simon currently holds a shihan-dai license which is what I believe Kini Collins held at one time as well.

I believe Meik Skoss is technically senior to Pierre Simon according to time in the school but Meik received his shihan license later only because Pierre left Japan and started his own dojo first. In the list above, I left them in order that Nitta sensei had listed in her interview in the book, but she most often lists Meik before Pierre in conversation.

In addition, several of the people above have also received a makimono stating that they have learned the betsuden, or separate (reconstructed) curriculum. It is possible to have received the okuden mokuroku and become shihan without having learned the betsuden.

Depending on where someone wants to draw the line, some, if not all of those names above, deserve to be listed here.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Ron Beaubien
3rd January 2004, 10:38
Hello,

I thought I should also mention that Pierre Simon of France received menkyo kaiden in Negishi-ryu Shurikenjutsu from Saito Satoshi sensei.

Sincerely,

Ron Beaubien

Ron Beaubien
3rd January 2004, 11:16
Hello Again,

According to his biography at Koryu.com, E-budo's very own Colin Hyakutake-Watkin holds menkyo kaiden of the Taiko Kono-ha-ryu battojutsu.

Add him to the list as well.

Ron Beaubien

Ron Beaubien
3rd January 2004, 14:54
Hello,

I also forgot to mention Pascal Krieger (http://www.fej.ch/anglais/epascal_p.html) who was also awarded menkyo kaiden in Shinto Muso-ryu by Nishioka Tsuneo sensei.

Ron Beaubien

Ron Beaubien
3rd January 2004, 15:35
Hello,

Lets not forget the ladies. Pat Harrington and Betty Huxley of Australia both have menkyo kaiden in Sosuishi-ryu.

See their biographies at the bottom of this page:

http://www.sosuishi-ryu.org/publications/

Ron

Mike B. Johnson
3rd January 2004, 20:51
Okay....So heres a preliminary list of westerners awarded licenses of complete transmission in traditional nihon budo. Im sure there are more and as this thread proceeds Ill update the list. At some point Im sure a questionable entry will be offered up and I will be forced to contact someone more authoritative. I have decided to include Don Angier even though no license was technically awarded to him. The fact that his promotion was apparantly verbal and that Katsuyuki Kondo and Stan Pranin have both recognized him as the inheritor of Shidare Yanagi ryu is qualification enough for me. If anyone disagrees with this assessment please PM me and make your case.

I have also included David Maynard of the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu after receiving an e-mail from Sensei Threadgill.

I have not included Julio Toribio who was awarded a San Dai Kichu in Hakko ryu but was later hamoned in a disciplinary action by the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo.

__________________________________________________



Asayama Ichiden ryu - James Wright

Danzan ryu - Sig Kufferath / Tony Janovich / Bob Hudson

Hakko ryu - Brian Workman / Ralph Verde / Steve Glaser / Gordon Kiokawa / Scott Newkirk / Tony Lamonica / Dennis Palumbo

Iwama ryu - Patricia Hendricks

Kashima Shin ryu - William Bodiford / Karl Friday

Negishi ryu - Pierre Simon

Shinto Muso ryu - Phil Relnick / Pascal Kreiger

Sosuishi-ryu - Pat Harrington / Betty Huxley

Taiko Kono ha ryu - Colin Hyakutake-Watkin

Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu - Toby Threadgill / David Maynard

Toda ha Buko ryu - Meik Skoss / Pierre Simon, / Claire Simon / Kini Collins, Ellis Amdur / Kent Sorenson, / Liam Keeley

Shidare Yanagi ryu - Don Angier

__________________________________________________


BJ

Jay Bell
3rd January 2004, 22:17
I have not included Julio Toribio who was awarded a San Dai Kichu in Hakko ryu but was later hamoned in a disciplinary action by the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo.

Lets be fair here. Julio Toribio received the San Dai Kichu. He was given hamon later...which in the core Hakko ryu is as easy to receive as not sending enough money to the Hombu. He has every right to be on that list, in my opinion.

Mike B. Johnson
4th January 2004, 00:51
"Lets be fair here. Julio Toribio received the San Dai Kichu. He was given hamon later...which in the core Hakko ryu is as easy to receive as not sending enough money to the Hombu. He has every right to be on that list, in my opinion."

_________________________________________________

Mr Bell,

I appreciate your point here but the problem lies in the fact that the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo no longer recognizes him an instructor. If we list him, do we not imply that he is authorized by the Hakko ryu to teach? The San Dai Kichu is a teaching license, is it not?

What do others of you think?

BJ

Brian Griffin
4th January 2004, 01:51
Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson

Danzan ryu - Sig Kufferath / Tony Janovich / Bob Hudson

I'm sorry if my earlier post wasn't clear.

Okazaki shihan awarded kaiden no sho to a large group of students in 1948. That group included Sig Kufferath, and quite a few others like Wally Jay, Carl Beaver, and many more. George Arrington has identified many of them on this page (http://www.danzan.com/HTML/people.html) at his Danzan.com website. You can see a group photo here (http://www.danzan.com/gallery/album51).

In 1993, Sig Kufferath issued 24 kaiden no sho, many of whom are likewise listed on his site. Here's a photo (http://www.danzan.com/gallery/album52) of that group of recipients.

In February 2003 another group received their diplomas in a class conducted by Tony Janovich and Bob Hudson.
Here's a photo (http://www.danzan.com/gallery/album53/o3grads) of this most recent group. Many of their names can likewise be found on George's site.

I apologize for not listing all the names before, but there are too many.

Jay Bell
4th January 2004, 05:07
Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson


Mr Bell,

I appreciate your point here but the problem lies in the fact that the Hakko ryu Hombu Dojo no longer recognizes him an instructor. If we list him, do we not imply that he is authorized by the Hakko ryu to teach? The San Dai Kichu is a teaching license, is it not?

What do others of you think?

BJ

I understand your point. I think my largest problem is calling to the surface the "disciplinary action". Is he still able to teach Hakko ryu to the fullest? According to his menkyo, he is (by ability alone). He must have been something special to receive the license to begin with. Without knowing the terms behind the disciplinary action, I just think it's unfair to hand judgement into leaving him off of the list...as he was awarded the license.

Mike B. Johnson
4th January 2004, 07:44
Posted by Jay Bell:

_____________________________

"Without knowing the terms behind the disciplinary action, I just think it's unfair to hand judgement into leaving him off of the list...as he was awarded the license."

_____________________________

Yeah, this is sort of a sticky deal. I'd de interested in the opinions of other members here as I see both sides of this delimma. I guess I'm kind of a stickler on this however. The Hombu calls the shots. They have the authority to issue and revoke licenses. The question I posed was not really based on talent but instead on teaching authority recognized officially by the ryu or headmaster.

I've met Julio Toribio many times and have found him to be a really nice guy, however he obviously did something that has resulted in his losing the authority to represent the Hakko ryu. If the Hakko ryu hombu dojo and soke say he does not have a license to teach Hakko ryu, then I think we must go with that position whether we agree with it or not.

I appreciate your opinion on this Jay.

BJ

GoshinkaiBushi
4th January 2004, 14:42
I am not claiming to know what really happened between Toribio Sensei and the Hakko-Ryu organization; however, I spent some time training at his Monterey Dojo. From what I heard, again, please take with a huge grain of salt, was that he did not feel that the exorbitant fees for the advanced techniques was right. With this, he left the organization and founded his own group, Seibukan Jujutsu.

I am sure his departure from the organization, coupled with his disagreement about money, could be cause enough for the Hombu to disavow him.

Now, regardless of his sanding with the Hombu, he had the skills to earn the rank and did earn the rank, so I feel we should recognize him for that and perhaps note that he is not longer with the Hakko-ryu.
Just a thought,

Justin

Ron Beaubien
4th January 2004, 16:03
Hello,

I have to side with Mike Johnson here.

Even if he earned the rank, officially leaving the ryuha or receiving hamon makes any previously given ranks invalid when we discuss a koryu bujutsu school as the school no longer sanctions what he does. If you venture off on your own then you have to be willing to stand on your own. That is how it has always been with the older traditions.

Here is Karl Friday's explanation in a message titled "The Whole Legitimacy Thing" (http://koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html) on the iaido list:

"This issue of possession, which is fundamentally different from what holds in modern bud organizations (like Aikid or Kend) or in most types of instruction in the West, renders irrelevant any debates about the talents or the backgrounds of individuals, beyond the matter of whether or not they have *current* authorization from the *current* headmaster of the ryha in question (the ske or his delegated representative) to teach and invoke the name of the ryha under the circumstances in question. It makes no difference how skillful the individual doing the teaching is; even the most qualified teachers are beyond the pale unless they are teaching through a specifically authorized arrangement. And even those certified or licensed to teach the school's arts are only doing so legitimately when the manner and circumstances under which they're teaching is sanctioned by the current ryha headmaster. Even permission to teach granted by a past headmaster or even by the current headmaster in the past doesn't necessarily legitimize current instruction; the right to teach the ryha AS THE ryha is only as good as the current headmaster agrees that it is (kind of the way that having once had a driver's license doesn't necessarily make you an authorized driver, unless it's kept properly renewed)." From: http://koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html

It was a great message that Karl Friday posted and I would recommend that people read it in it's entirety.

The soke of Hakko-ryu makes the decisions regarding rank in his school and it is his decision alone.

Sincerely,

Ron Beaubien

Qasim
4th January 2004, 21:50
Originally posted by Ron Beaubien
Hello,

...Even if he earned the rank, officially leaving the ryuha or receiving hamon makes any previously given ranks invalid when we discuss a koryu bujutsu school as the school no longer sanctions what he does. If you venture off on your own then you have to be willing to stand on your own. That is how it has always been with the older traditions.....

Picking nits here, when did Hakko Ryu become a Koryu? It was founded WELL after the beginning of the Meiji Period. If this is a Koryu being founded in 1941, then Aikido should have the same distinction of being a Koryu.

Just based on what is in this thread, I agree that Sensei Toribio should be at the very least noted as earning the Menkyo Kaiden but is no longer an Official instructor.

'Nuff Said :mst:

Mekugi
5th January 2004, 01:08
OK this is kind of on-topic...

Did Mr. D.F. Dreager hold a Menkyo Kaiden in anything? I was under the impression (dunno why...) that he held one in Shinto Muso Ryu and Perhaps Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Maybe that's just my imagination filling in the blanks.

-Russ

Ron Beaubien
5th January 2004, 12:45
Hello,

"Qasim" Uriah Gardner wrote:

"Picking nits here, when did Hakko Ryu become a Koryu? It was founded WELL after the beginning of the Meiji Period."

Yes, you're right. I probably should have expressed myself more clearly. Just ignore the reference to koryu. I made the mistake because this thread is in a koryu forum and I wasn't overly concerned with the age of the school.

However, I had taken a look at their homepage before writing. Hakko-ryu conducts themselves in a koryu fashion - even though they technically aren't. Instead of having a large democratic organization with an elected leader like most modern schools, they instead favor the use of the inherited title of soke, who has absolute control over the school from the giving of ranks, curriculum, membership, and even the use of the school's name like a koryu school.

"If this is a Koryu being founded in 1941, then Aikido should have the same distinction of being a Koryu."

This may surprise you. Aikido, or more specifically the Aikikai under Ueshiba sensei, is a member of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, the oldest association of koryu schools in Japan. Actually, Toyama-ryu is as well. I know that technically speaking some people feel they probably shouldn't have been allowed to be members, but the fact is that they are, have been for some time it seems, and are very nice people and so no one would ever ask them to leave. I guess that is just another case of where things in Japan are shades of gray instead of black and white.

Back to the main point of the thread...

"Just based on what is in this thread, I agree that Sensei Toribio should be at the very least noted as earning the Menkyo Kaiden but is no longer an Official instructor."

I guess we just see this differently. I'm taking the thread title "menkyo kaiden holders" to mean people who actually hold the rank of menkyo kaiden at the present time. Mr. Toribio did at one time, but doesn't anymore. That is all there is to it. This isn't meant as some kind slight on Mr. Toribio nor does it have anything to do with his abilities or what he may have earned in the past. It is more than just "no longer being an official instructor" as you say, which could imply that he holds rank but chooses not to teach. If he had in fact received hamon then he is no longer affiliated with the school in any way, shape, or form, and whatever rank he once held is now totally null and void.

The point I was making is still valid. It doesn't matter if the school is classical or modern as the soke, in either case, still has total authority over the school according their doctrine as clearly stated on their website. For better or for worse, the rank is only good as long as the soke of the school recognizes it as being good no matter what anyone else thinks - myself included. The same goes for schools of flower arrangement, tea ceremony, and all others that have used the iemoto system for the last several hundred years in Japan. It doesn't mean I necessarily like it or agree with it, but that is the custom.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mike B. Johnson
5th January 2004, 17:02
Hi,

I went back and looked at my original question.

"I got to thinking. How many legit Menkyo Kaiden holders are there in the west? And by "legit" I mean people teaching a traditional Japanese system with a verifiable history."

Technically Sensei Toribio no longer holds a menkyo kaiden as far as the Hakko ryu Soke is concerned and as a matter of fact no longer teaches Hakko ryu Jujutsu. After reading the opinion of Dr. Karl Friday I have concluded that as much as I appreciate his past accomplishments I cannot in good conscience put Julio Toribio's name on the list.

BJ

Dale Seago
5th January 2004, 19:01
Originally posted by GoshinkaiBushi
I am not claiming to know what really happened between Toribio Sensei and the Hakko-Ryu organization; however, I spent some time training at his Monterey Dojo. From what I heard, again, please take with a huge grain of salt, was that he did not feel that the exorbitant fees for the advanced techniques was right. With this, he left the organization and founded his own group, Seibukan Jujutsu.

Julio discussed that with me years ago, when he was just beginning in the Bujinkan. What he told me at the time was not that it was an issue over the cost of higher-level techniques (though I have heard him mention that on a number of occasions since), but that an instructor with seniority to him demanded that he send license fees, etc. to the hombu through him so the senior could take his cut before sending the monies on. Julio refused, the other instructor complained, and baddabing baddaboom: hamon. This poses certain economic problems for someone who teaches martial arts for a living.

From what I've seen -- which, granted, is not that much -- what he now teaches as Seibukan is still for the most part technically Hakko ryu, but he can't call it that.

He also teaches Bujinkan classes, but only one class per week, and to get into those his students first have to reach a certain level in Seibukan.

Per Dr. Friday's description, I'd have to go with Julio's exclusion from the list.

Nathan Scott
5th January 2004, 20:44
Hi all,

An impressive list of Western MK's. I knew there were at least a handful, but am surprised to see so many names. Cool.

In case anyone is interested, I think it will be some time before anyone in Shinkendo recieves Menkyo Kaiden. There are a handful of us that do "know everything" (I've been told), but I know that for me at least, it will be 7 more years before I reach the minimum "appropriate" age for such an award (at the risk of sounding presumptuous!). In fact, I was just promoted a few days ago, and think I'm maxed out for my age and time in all around. In any event, we do have a few densho-levels in Shinkendo, which represent the final stages of initiation in the art (formally at least), and upon reviewing our current collective levels of initiation, I think it will be some years before anyone makes Kaiden.

BTW, I know that Ellis was awarded Inka in Araki ryu, but don't remember if that represents the highest level of initiation or not.

Also, IIRC, Donn Draeger had been awarded a Kyoshi license in TSKSR, though I don't remember if it was the first or second one. I don't know about his other ranks (which were numerous), but it would seem that George Bristol is working on a biography of Draeger that will be published at some point. Bristol is a student of Hunter Armstrong (who may have MK or equiv in Shinkage/Kan ryu?), who in turn was a student of Draeger.

Regards,

ChrisMoon
6th January 2004, 00:33
From my understanding Phil Relnick also has a very high rank in TSKSR if he is not the highest ranking westerner. Someone told me he went all the way. Quintin Chambers and Draegar also have some kind of ranking as well. Some 20 years ago Otake Risuke tried to talk Mr. Chambers in furthering his studies in TSKSR.

Aikilove
7th January 2004, 13:37
In all honesty, if Pat Hendrics (or rather Iwama ryu) should at all be included, then so should Ulf Evenas (Sweden) and Paulo Corallini(Italy) both 7th dan Iwama ryu (i.e. even higher grade than Patricia not to mention Hitohiro Saito now "soke" of newly formed IWAMA SHINSHIN AIKI SHURENKAI). Both have recieved equivalent licences from the late M. Saito. Now he is gone and it looks like all three are leaving the Iwama ryu organisation deal behind them (not the training methology though).
I honestly doubt that either of the three calles what they have recieved a Menkyo Kaiden of a traditional Japanese MA. I have only met Patricia and Ulf (the latter as late as yesterday at my own shodan examination), and I have only heared aikido (or possibly proper aikido) being used by them regarding what they are teaching.
MHO is that Iwama shouldn't be included or they should all three of them be.

Mike B. Johnson
7th January 2004, 16:55
Jakob,

I have actually seen the license that Morihiro Saito presented to Pat Hendricks. My reading of Japanese is not great mind you but it is a menkyo kaiden in Iwama ryu Aiki Ken and Aiki Jo. It is not a Menkyo Kaiden in Aikido. If the others you mentioned have similar licenses I agree that they should be included.

My reason for including Pat Hendricks was:

She was authorized by Saito to teach, evaluate and promote up to the highest levels.

Aiki Ken & Jo although not clssical budo are certainly traditional budo.

BJ

Aikilove
8th January 2004, 09:51
Agreed, so if it should be included it should be (I think):
Iwama ryu Buki wasa: Ulf Evenas, Paulo Corallini and Patricia Hendrics

But as I said, since H. Saito now has broken out of Aikikai to form his Iwama Ryu Shinshin etc. and he regard himself as Soke, I think it will be problematic to include these three for the same reason as Julio Toribio regarding Hakko ryu: Does this soke accept these guys as Menkyo Kaiden holders of his system or rather do they regard him as soke of what they have a Menkyo Kaiden in?

Nathan Scott
8th January 2004, 19:41
I've got a couple of questions:

1) Who issued Saito Sensei (junior or senior) a menkyo kaiden in anything? What authority does/did he have to issue menkyo kaiden in anything aikido related?

2) If Ueshiba Sensei incorporated aiki weapon work in order to facilitate learning aikido (taijutsu), and the weapon work by itself is acknowledged as not being adequate as a stand alone system (by weapon standards), why are people being awarded scrolls and menkyo kaiden in aiki-weapon work? I would think if such an award could be justified, that it would be in a particular line of aikido, and that any weapon work learned would be included in such a rank.

Just curious - no offense intended,

Aikilove
9th January 2004, 11:08
I guess the question should be given to either of the three that was given these certificates or Stanley Pranin, who I believe had some part of the making of these. I believe it has been dealt with at the forum in Aikido Journal.

My take is this though:
Saito M. started this new organization (without leaving aikikai) called Iwama ryu together with some of his students, in order to preserve the techniques of O-sensei as he taught and trained them in Iwama, including the weapon parts. After some time the question was raised if he should start to issue grades in Iwama ryu and certificates of profficiancy in bukiwaza to distinguish the knowledge of the pedagogic system and the weapon curricula of Saito M.
I guess the reason for certificates instead of or together with grades regarding the bukiwaza was (in the framwork of Iwama Ryu) the finit number of katas and teachings surrounding the weapon, hence making it possible for Saito M. to know that this or that person now knew all of what he himself could/teach at that moment (he constantly evolved new variations you see), and that this person was able to teach the same.

Regarding Saito H. I don't know what kind of certificates he got from his father, but I don't question him having at least equal understanding and skills of the Iwama Ryu Bukiwaza as the three other mentioned. But is he their Soke? If not, then how valid are their Menkyo Kaiden as defined by the initial questioner of this post?

Ron Beaubien
9th January 2004, 11:56
Hello,

I remembered another person.

It appears that John Viol of Michigan receved menkyo kaiden from Ishihara Masao in 1991 according to the biography on his website.

See: http://www.seishinkan.com/seishin/sskstaff/johnviolshihan01.html

Unfortunately, despite mentioning receiving the rank several times on the homepage, it does not appear to specify which art he received it in.

I had never heard about this line of the school before until just a few years ago, but his website mentions "Yagyu Shingan-ryu Hyoho Iaijutsu" and I believe he may have received the menkyo kaiden for that school.

Despite the exact details being vague, the rank appears to be legitimate.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mike B. Johnson
9th January 2004, 19:52
Jakob,

One big diference I have in the situation with the Iwama ryu Aiki Ken / Aiki Jo licenses when compared to Toribio Sensei is that these licenses were valid when Saito Morihiro died. Toribio Sensei was hamoned. That makes the situation completely different.

From what I understand Saito Hitohiro has formed a completely new organization distinctly separate from that one his father oversaw and will issue ranks under this organization's banner. The fact that the instructors in question have chosen not to join this new organization has littlle effect on the licenses they were awarded by Saito Morihiro. Pat Hendrick's in particular received the very first menkyo kaiden issued by Saito Morihiro. For that reason alone I consider her the most senior practitioner of the Aiki Ken & Jo system founded by Saito.

Mr Scott,

As founder of his own tradition Obata Sensei like Saito Sensei would have the authority to issue a license to teach, correct? Where does his authority come from?

The system devised by Saito Morihiro and associated licenses is distnctly separate from those awarded by the aikido hombu. I don't see a problem here. His was well respected and has many devoted followers as does your teacher.

Ron,

About John Viol. His claims are quite controversal at his point. If anyone has more intimate knowledge of exacly what his situation is I am willing to entertain them. What info I have on Viol at this point is very inconclusive if not odd actually. I'm sort of at a wait and see on this guy. These;s something sort of fishy and slick surrounding this guy that I can put a finger on.

BJ

MarkF
10th January 2004, 10:09
About John Viol. His claims are quite controversal at his point. If anyone has more intimate knowledge of exacly what his situation is I am willing to entertain them. What info I have on Viol at this point is very inconclusive if not odd actually. I'm sort of at a wait and see on this guy. These;s something sort of fishy and slick surrounding this guy that I can put a finger on.


His claims read like those in Bad Budo. Lines such as "John Viol is the only non-Japanese..." and "...and was sent to Michigan to open a branch dojo..." should be given all the weight they deserve.

Why are there pictures of him receiving the full transmission? Isn't this something rather sacred? Couldn't they just have a few beers afterward and then award him the patch-encrusted uwagi some of the more recent have received after such an occasion?

Making a list of Western holders of MK is fine, but some rules should apply. But if it is going to be a full list, fishy or not, then this could be quite a list.


These;s something sort of fishy and slick surrounding this guy that I can put a finger on.


I can put a finger on it too.;)

Hey, Let's roast Toby again!


Mark

Aikilove
10th January 2004, 11:42
Originally posted by Mike B. Johnson
One big diference I have in the situation with the Iwama ryu Aiki Ken / Aiki Jo licenses when compared to Toribio Sensei is that these licenses were valid when Saito Morihiro died. Toribio Sensei was hamoned. That makes the situation completely different.

From what I understand Saito Hitohiro has formed a completely new organization distinctly separate from that one his father oversaw and will issue ranks under this organization's banner. The fact that the instructors in question have chosen not to join this new organization has littlle effect on the licenses they were awarded by Saito Morihiro. Pat Hendrick's in particular received the very first menkyo kaiden issued by Saito Morihiro. For that reason alone I consider her the most senior practitioner of the Aiki Ken & Jo system founded by Saito.
I agree that the situation is different than for Toribio, I'm just not sure how to regard them regarding the definitions for being part of this list. These three are holders of a Menkyo Kaiden in something created by M Saito and that died with him. Still I regard both Ulf and Pat my teachers (I have never trained with Paulo) and I know they regard their licences from their teacher very highly.

kokumo
10th January 2004, 15:17
Originally posted by Aikilove
I agree that the situation is different than for Toribio, I'm just not sure how to regard them regarding the definitions for being part of this list. These three are holders of a Menkyo Kaiden in something created by M Saito and that died with him. Still I regard both Ulf and Pat my teachers (I have never trained with Paulo) and I know they regard their licences from their teacher very highly.

Here's the quick definition of Menkyo Kaiden from the Aikido Journal site.

MENKYO KAIDEN.

Certificate of advanced proficiency. Highest certificate of proficiency awarded in many traditional Japanese martial art systems.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/images/encyclopedia/kanji/menkyo_kaiden.gif

As far as anyone knows, no higher certificates were awarded in Saito Sensei's aikiken and aikijo systems.

In that narrow scope, it would seem that there are at least three individuals who have both the right and the responsibility to award ranking in those systems.

Perhaps the anomoly is that we're looking at a subset (jo and ken) particular line (Saito) of a gendai art (Aikido) that is classified as a kobudo art in at least some quarters during the time immediately after the establishment of a koryu-style certificate system (menkyo kaiden) and the passing of the Founder of this system of licensing (Saito).

And there are all kinds of social, political and economic implications -- for many people who practice aikido in general and aikiken/aikijo in particular -- associated with whatever decisions are made by those menkyo kaiden holders.

I have actually been wondering if this thread belongs in the KORYU section rather than the AJJ section, since most of the arts referenced are actually primarily weapons arts and not AJJ, but that also gets us back to the intractable question of whether DRAJJ is classified as a koryu or gendai art. Circles within circles.

Bottom line: Saito Sensei developed a cohesive weapons curriculum and clearly designated several individuals as fully qualified to teach and grade in it by instituting the issuance of menkyo kaiden, a certification that is used in a number of koryu and across those ryu carries a range of commonly understood rights, responsibilities, and realms of authority.

Some of the questions raised turn less on the issue of the menkyo kaiden than on the issue of whether or not Saito Sensei also established an iemoto system for his teaching line(s) in aikido, aikiken, and aikijo. It is not at all clear that he did.

But the group of people certified is small enough that there's a good chance these things can be worked out among them reasonably and large enough that even if they aren't, the line might go forward.

That looks like pretty good risk management on Saito Sensei's part to me.

Fred Little

Aikilove
10th January 2004, 18:04
Good respons!

Mike B. Johnson
11th January 2004, 07:01
Jakob posted:

"These three are holders of a Menkyo Kaiden in something created by M Saito and that died with him."

Jakob???? If he awarded three Menkyo Kaiden then the art did not die with him. That's the whole point of a Menkyo Kaiden. right?

Fred, excellent post.

BJ.

Nathan Scott
11th January 2004, 07:49
Mr Scott,

As founder of his own tradition Obata Sensei like Saito Sensei would have the authority to issue a license to teach, correct? Where does his authority come from?

Mr. Little touched a bit on what I'm going to say in response to this question.

Shinkendo is a truly unique sword art, that is not based on any-one system. Obata Sensei is not like Saito Sensei in this regard, unless you change your focus to the Aiki-Buken art also taught by Obata Sensei - which is still a bit different from the circumstances of Saito M./Iwama ryu.

Obata Sensei is the founder AND Soke of Shinkendo, and has not shared any political or organizational affiliations with anyone for many years now. Anyone who creates an art and takes the position of founder and headmaster can theoretically issue whatever ranks they want in their art. Again though, if the founder of such an art only received a shodan in another art themselves, the ranks they issue will not draw much respect from their peers. Ranking and licensing is respected based on the issuer's previous experience and credentials (and to some degree I suppose their current ability and reputation). Obata Sensei HAS in fact received Menkyo Kaiden (or is it the equiv of MK?) in at least one of the sword arts he has studied, and has an obscene amount of ranks and credentials in addition to ability and reputation. The public COULD decide that a MK issued by Obata Sensei in Shinkendo is not worthy of that issued by some other big shot, but I really doubt that, considering the above points.

Saito M. taught "Aikido", as was taught to him by the founder of Aikido. If Saito M. considered himself the "founder" or headmaster of his "Iwama ryu", then I suppose he can issue whatever he wants, though I happen to think it is a bit odd sounding for anyone to claim to be the "Soke" of aikido except for the aikikai line. But Saito M. was at least politically affiliated with the Aikikai during his lifetime (his teacher's org), and re-organized his teacher's teachings in an attempt to preserve what he considered to be "orthodox aikido". Ueshiba M. didn't issue densho in aikido (unless you count the hiden DR look-alike pre-aikido densho in the earlier periods). He gave dan ranks. This is the difference and perspective I'm talking about.

FWIW, Obata Sensei also founded the Aiki-Buken, an "aiki" art, in which he restructured and made significant changes to what he was taught by his teacher. This art is based largely on his experience under Shioda Sensei, but Obata Sensei severed all ties with Yoshinkan years ago and is the founder and chief instructor of the Aiki-Buken. However, taking into account that he didn't "invent" the methods he teaches for the most part, the rank/shogo structure tends to follow that found in Aikido - particularly Yoshinkan. In other words, he was not issued densho in aikido, and aikido doesn't have a culture of issuing densho (outside of Saito M). So he doesn't do it either.

I guess I'm saying: breaking off and doing your own version of an existing art (line/branch) is a little different than founding your own art.

But anyway, hypothetically a student of Saito M. who had been issued... say, an 8th dan and Shihan license from Saito M., would by mainstream Aikido standards ALREADY be fully qualified to teach what he has learned - including any supplemental weapons curriculum. Why would someone need to be given "full transmission" in a supplemental area of study which is not even an "applied method" (real technique), when they have not earned the same or higher rank in the mother/core art? Again, no disrespect intended towards anyone, but to me it is the same as him awarding someone a "Menkyo Kaiden" in the supplemental "art" of taisabaki (body movement), but only a 5th dan in Aikido. Isn't taisabaki a method designed to improve aikido (the core art)?

BTW, some readers may remember the weapons scrolls that Saito M. was advertising in early issues of Aiki News/Journal. IIRC, you could learn the Iwama weapons methods via video tape if necessary and then receive some kind of scroll from him after submitting an adequate example of yourself performing them. Not a MK, but some type of hand written scroll. A bit unusual. If everyone forgot about this, I can probably dig up an old issue and scan the ad in.

I really don't mean to be attacking Saito M. or his students, as I like Iwama Aikido and his efforts to preserve aikido. But facts is facts - I personally just don't get it. YMMV.

Regards,

Chris Li
11th January 2004, 08:10
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Ueshiba M. didn't issue densho in aikido (unless you count the hiden DR look-alike pre-aikido densho in the earlier periods). He gave dan ranks.

He actually issued a couple of menkyo kaiden in Aikido (and one in Aiki-bo), and at least one of the Aikido ones was post-war. Still, I've never heard of M. Saito receiving any (although he may have), so your points are still valid.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
11th January 2004, 08:24
Are you sure the densho say "Aikido"? I've never heard of Ueshiba issuing Aikido densho before. I'd love to hear more about who was issued these and what the names of the densho were.

I have heard Stan Pranin comment very clearly in his "Two Pillars of Aikido" lecture that, perhaps in his opinion, Ueshiba M. was NOT a swordsman. To him it was clear that Ueshiba's technical training was in Daito ryu, and although his name appeared as having taken keppan with Kashima shinto ryu, he had only watched the instruction maybe a dozen times or so over the course of one year. It didn't sound as though Stan had a high opinion of Ueshiba's sword skills, and I have to say that what I've seen of his weapon work hasn't impressed me either (FWIW).

Aikilove
11th January 2004, 16:27
uh... Nathan, what exactly have you seen of his weapon works? From what I have read about him, most budoka of his days regarded him as an incredible swordsman (even though having little formal training!), joman, jukendoman and jujutsuka specially after having observed, or felt him.
Re. Saito M: He formed an organization, Iwama Ryu. Within this organization he issued dan grades for Iwama Ryu (which included knowing the bukiwasa for that grade). He was also an aikikai shihan so one could grade aikikai for him as well. He also issued dan grades for Iwama Ryu Bukiwasa separetely (I think you had to have at least the grade below in Iwama ryu or aikikai i.e. 1st dan or more for 2nd dan Bukiwasa). In this case you had to perform the required bukiwasa techniques well enough to be able to instruct yourself it correctly. Apart from these, when Saito M. seem to have felt that the time was right he bestowed on these individuals these densho (Menkyo Kaiden or equivalent) were he regarded these peoples knowledge of the Bukiwasa part of Iwama Ryu as complete and that they could hemself teach it all. But remember, it was I believe a way for him, when the organization under him grew, to make sure that o-senseis teachings and techniques was preserved without changes (according to him).

He didn't mind people evolving and teaching personal aikido, they were welcom to grade in aikikai. But if you were graded in Iwama Ryu and taught Iwama Style then that was his control mechanism for the preservation of his aikido. Anyone could buy his books and videos but the testing in Iwama Ryu made sure that these people really knew how to perform and teach e.g. the Bukiwasa and the Riai (i.e. the connection between taijutsu and weapon).

Chris Li
11th January 2004, 20:56
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Are you sure the densho say "Aikido"? I've never heard of Ueshiba issuing Aikido densho before. I'd love to hear more about who was issued these and what the names of the densho were.

At least one did, the one issued to Roy Suenaka (http://www.suenaka.com/biography.htm).

Best,

Chris

Ron Tisdale
12th January 2004, 15:51
The film 'Aiki Budo' has some of his weapons work...in particular a bokken kata. I'd love to hear the opinions of some sword folk on it. To my inexperienced eyes it was more suggestive of 'cleansing the dojo of demons' than proper sword work, which is usually done in two man kata anyway.

This is not to say that what he could do with a sword and a partner was not amazing, especially considering his background (or rather, lack of a formal background). I just think it falls more into the realm of his aikido, rather than 'proper' swordwork.

FWIW,

Ron

Nathan Scott
13th January 2004, 01:17
Mr. Blomquist,


Anyone could buy his books and videos but the testing in Iwama Ryu made sure that these people really knew how to perform and teach e.g. the Bukiwasa and the Riai (i.e. the connection between taijutsu and weapon).

Apparently not always. Please see the following scan of page 43 from issue 78, Aiki News, 1988. These are the scrolls I wrote about previously:

Aiki no Ken-Jo no Mokuroku (http://www.pacificnet.net/~nscott/saito_scrolls.jpg)

It may be a bit hard to read at this size, but here are a few of the details. The qualifications are:

1) Persons who have participated in Aiki Ken and Jo training in Iwama under the supervision of Morihiro Saito Sensei.

2) Persons who have practiced th Aiki Ken and Jo in Iwama-style dojos or Iwama-style seminars.

3) Persons who have trained using the Instructional Aiki Ken and Jo video tapes prepared by Morihiro Saito Sensei.

under TESTING PROCEDURES, it says (in part):

"Persons unable to receive direct instruction from Saito Sensei or a certified instructor of the Aiki Ken and Jo may submit a video tape recording containing their examination for evaluation. Examinees who demonstrate a satisfactory level of proficiency for the level tested will be awarded an "Aiki no Ken-Jo no Mokuroku" scroll as detailed above."

under VIDEO TAPES, it says:

"Two video tapes containing th material for testing for Aiki Ken and Jo Certification prepared by Morihiro Saito Sensei are available for purchase through AIKI NEWS. See advertisment on page 63."

The ad on page 63 shows the two tapes for $75 each, or $125 for both. Not sure what the cost of the weapons scrolls were, but I'm sure they weren't free!


... But remember, it was I believe a way for him, when the organization under him grew, to make sure that o-senseis teachings and techniques was preserved without changes (according to him).

Interestingly, the ad also says "The purpose of this system is to preserve and disseminate th Aiki Ken and Jo techniques created by the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba, in Iwama in the years following World War II and later systemitized and expanded upon by Saito Sensei."

This seems to match what Isoyama Hiroshi Sensei told me, which is that he had also learned some weapon work from Ueshiba Sensei, but that Saito Sensei had added quite a bit too it. Apparently Saito Sensei and Isoyama Sensei used to train together for a number of years before having a falling out of sorts.

**

Anyway, my basic point was that, in my opinion, the issuing of Menkyo Kaiden in bukiwaza (or in Aikido at all for that matter) is odd. I've already listed the reasons why I think that is the case, and will respect your right to disagree if your opinion is different. No harm done.

As far as seeing Ueshiba Sensei's weapon work, I've probably seen everything you have, which is the O-Sensei video tapes sold by Aikido Journal, and a large number of photographs. I've also read many if not all the same articles you have, but I think your missing my point to some degree.

I'm not saying that Ueshiba Sensei could not handle himself with weapons. I think anyone with the level of mastery of martial arts that he had could pick a weapon up and fair pretty well for themselves, based on a superior understanding of tactics, timing and body movements. Being reasonably effective with a weapon (which I don't know if he was - his opponents more times than not were his students and others more junior to him in martial excellence) through experimentation and observation is not the same as being "a swordsman" (and please don't anyone bring up the Musashi thing again - I can't take any more of it. Really). The fact is, from my observation, and apparently Stan's by the way, Ueshiba Sensei was not formally trained to any significant or known level in weapons. When I was a kid, I used to swing nunchaku around like a madman, for hours and days at a time. My buddies and all watched all the Bruce Lee films, and had good fun having a go at it. I even defeated, rather effortlessly and quickly, my buddy, who had been training in Arnis sticks. But can I claim to be a "nunchaku man"? Not without getting criticized by those who have trained for years under a qualified instructor.

Also, there are bad habits people get when they are self-taught. Body movement habits. You see this kind of thing in everyone who is self-taught, and there are a few evident with Ueshiba Sensei - as hard as that is to believe.

But I think we're getting pretty off topic..

Chris, thanks for the link. For those that didn't look, the relevant text says:

"* Menkyo Kaiden (teaching license, certificate of complete mastery) in aikido, awarded by aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei, in 1961"

Was your dismissal of my saying that densho weren't issued in Aikido based soley on this one example? Just curious. I'm going to see if I can find more out about this one.

Regards,

Chris Li
13th January 2004, 02:07
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Interestingly, the ad also says "The purpose of this system is to preserve and disseminate th Aiki Ken and Jo techniques created by the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba, in Iwama in the years following World War II and later systemitized and expanded upon by Saito Sensei."

I seem to recall Stan Pranin saying (much later on), that this system (the video certification thing) was primarily set up in order to raise funds (I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that from somewhere).


Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Chris, thanks for the link. For those that didn't look, the relevant text says:

"* Menkyo Kaiden (teaching license, certificate of complete mastery) in aikido, awarded by aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei, in 1961"

Was your dismissal of my saying that densho weren't issued in Aikido based soley on this one example? Just curious. I'm going to see if I can find more out about this one.

Regards,

No, but I don't have any really solid information about the other post-war ones (except for the Aiki-bo one issued to Hikitsuchi). In any case M. Ueshiba never really set up a coherent system for these densho, as far as I can tell, they seem to have been issued more or less according to the particular circumstances at hand. That being the case, what they actually mean is sort of up in the air - although for all that I suppose that I wouldn't mind having gotten one myself :).

Best,

Chris

Aikilove
13th January 2004, 14:01
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Anyway, my basic point was that, in my opinion, the issuing of Menkyo Kaiden in bukiwaza (or in Aikido at all for that matter) is odd. I've already listed the reasons why I think that is the case, and will respect your right to disagree if your opinion is different. No harm done. I don't disagree with you. I was the one who brought it up remember... I only tried to answer the question that was vented around about the reason why he issued licences.

Being reasonably effective with a weapon (which I don't know if he was - his opponents more times than not were his students and others more junior to him in martial excellence) through experimentation and observation is not the same as being "a swordsman" I wasn't refering to his direct students of little actuall arms training, but the respected teachers of traditional schools. One example that comes to mind is Sugino Sensei of TSKSR.

But I think we're getting pretty off topic..
Agreed!

Rei Ho
14th May 2004, 05:46
I once heard that scrolls are sometimes sold in public auction in Japan. Is this true? I don't know, so I thought I might ask. Thanks.
Tracy Crocker:)

renfield_kuroda
14th May 2004, 07:57
I buy my scrolls at the art supply shop outside of Shibuya station.

Regards,

r e n

poryu
14th May 2004, 08:40
Hi

I buy makimono from the japanese Yahoo auctions.

I have bought them for as little as 1000 yen. I recenty got 3 ikebana makimono for 2,500 yen.

Budo scrolls tend to sell for a lot more though starting around 10,000 yen on there

cxt
9th July 2004, 18:49
Generic question.


Are there "ranks" within the standard koryu structure??

Reason I ask is that I seem to recall the use of a term that denoted a "expert" within the structure of a given ryu.

But NOT a "receiver of all techniques" aka Menkyo.

Again I may just be remembering it wrong, the reason that I remember it was that it "sounded" so odd.

Any ideas??

Chris Thomas

Neil Yamamoto
9th July 2004, 19:01
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=304983#post304983

Nathan Scott posted this in the AJJ forum, and I think this is what you are hunting for with the question.

cxt
12th July 2004, 19:11
Neil

Thanks for your help.

I missed that one.


Chris Thomas

hyaku
30th July 2004, 01:30
I just added a little to that other thread to make thinks clear from a point of view of the Ryu I belong to.

Others may differ but it has been my experience that Menkyo Kaiden like all other Shogo is special, but it is also awarded as an honorary title.

There really is little substitute for teaching everything to one person with the paperwork as an added bonus. And teachers are preferential in what they teach to who with that in mind. Its not the sessions in a daily dojo. Its the weekends in Soke's dojo and who gets invited that counts. I have seen Soke push his successor really hard and jokingly say, "You know why I am doing that".

As we all know Kobudo seems to have a history of not writing things down. If that's a secretive method or not I dont know but from where I stand I see little change.

Many people get all these awards. Some of them God forbid masturbate and stick them under their name. But it's the way they got them that counts. Watching all the practice and the demo's we "know" who's the boss!

MarkF
30th July 2004, 14:18
Others may differ but it has been my experience that Menkyo Kaiden like all other Shogo is special, but it is also awarded as an honorary title.


Well, sure Colin, all grading is honorary, be it dan-I or menjo. It can be nothing more than a technicality. Most can see who has the kaiden.

Considering the time from whence the titles/grades come, perhaps the passing down of secrets really stems from a lack of ability to write. At least in some cases, that is probably true.


Mark

hyaku
31st July 2004, 04:12
Hello Mark. Very true. Then if we do have stuff handed down by someone that could actaully write, we have to get an expert to explain it to us in modern Japanese.

By the way thanks a lot for you help on that Judo matter. Seems to be all under control this end.

MarkF
1st August 2004, 13:44
By the way thanks a lot for you help on that Judo matter. Seems to be all under control this end.


Hey, Colin, it was nothing, really, but I am glad it worked out.

You are right about having to translate per period, something I hadn't thought. In English, the same would have to be done. They really didn't know how to spell four-hundred years ago.;)

I was thinking of those within tribes who were the keepers of the history, or secrets and passed it down by oral transmission to those who were chosen for that very job. Sometimes, I think those guys understood better than the books and other written material from the times. Most research and resulting history comes with a healthy dose of opinion so it depends on the opinion of the outcome of the research rather than the actual truth. History does become more interesting, however, and much more fun.

That is probably truer in the passing down of a certain style of budo or anything as personal as body movements, though the easier it is to understand the basics (Scottish back wrestling), the less it needs to be changed to accomodate. But as one can teach what one knows, he can't control what the next one interprets to be the tradition. Better to grasp the basics than the finer details in some cases, anyway.


Mark

Lowriderx52
10th April 2006, 23:20
This might be a sidenote, but Gorin no Sho is easily found all over the internet free, but i hardly see Heiho Kaden Sho anywhere even in bookstores, much less the internet

could anyone post a link or upload a file of an English translation? I can't seem to find it anywhere

Thanks in advance.

Nathaniel Kim

kenkyusha
11th April 2006, 00:59
Has been published in English as, "The Sword and the Mind."

Be well,
Jigme

Lowriderx52
11th April 2006, 01:05
Thank you.

Does anyone know where to find this online?

Nathaniel Kim

fifthchamber
11th April 2006, 01:48
I would suggest buying it. Or you could Google it...But I couldn't see anything last time I did...The book would be a better bet.
Koryu.com "Sword and the Mind" (http://www.koryubooks.com/store/swordmind.html)
Regards.

Brian Owens
11th April 2006, 07:00
[Heiho Kadensho] Has been published in English as, "The Sword and the Mind."

...Does anyone know where to find this online?
Meik Skoss, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, has reviewed two translations of Heiho Kadensho; the one contained in the above named The Sword and the Mind and William Scott Wilson's translation, The Life-giving Sword.

Skoss Sensei said he prefers Wilson's version. I have read both, and I find Wilson's version a little less obscure, although neither can be called "light reading."

Since The Sword and the Mind is currently out of stock at Koryu.com, you might as well go for The Life-giving Sword.

It also is a hardbound edition, versus The Sword and the Mind's paper back, and is part of a nice set of translations by Wilson. (The others are The Book of Five Rings, Hagakure, and The Unfettered Mind. He also has a biography of Miyamoto Musashi out, The Lone Samurai.)

Here's a link: http://koryu.com/store/lifegivingsword.html

HTH.

Lowriderx52
11th April 2006, 20:43
wait....

is this it?

http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/SwordandMind.htm

Nathaniel Kim

Jason Jennings
13th April 2006, 15:05
In the case of the Gorin no Sho, Miyamoto Musashi was ordered by the han and as a result a copy was part of the han property from the beginning. Subsequently, copies began to show up among other schools during the 1830's (diagrams were added in the Ku no Maki to some copies from that period).

Kim Taylor
14th April 2006, 04:20
Somewhere around my house I think I've got a secret masonic handbook, might have come from Gramps. I'm pretty sure I've got an OddFellows manual too, and the old man taught me the secret Masonic handshake once. I also know the secret handshake of the old Kampeitai as passed down through certain lines of martial arts.

Now I've been practicing Niten Ichiryu for a little while and I shouldn't be telling you guys this but when you start practicing they give you a secret code key that lets you decipher all the secret techniques in the scrolls. Without the key the scrolls are just so many words, so much fantasy fodder for kids.

I REALLY shouldn't be telling you guys this but if you want the code-key that was given to me by my first Niten sensei, here's what he whispered in my ear one day............... keiko.

Kim Taylor

PS if you really read the Gorinsho closely you may actually run across the code-key in the text itself.

Jason Jennings
14th April 2006, 09:42
Kimmm...sheesh now everybody knows the secret about keiko.

CU at the "lodge"

ZealUK
30th May 2009, 00:49
Found this site while browsing the other day...

http://www.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kotenseki/index.html

There are a few documents relating to koryu kenjutsu, hojutsu and archery. Of particular interest to me were the kishomon (http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/ke05/ke05_00391/ke05_00391.pdf) from Oishi Shinkage-ryu and the mokuroku (http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/ke05/ke05_01032/ke05_01032_0001/ke05_01032_0001.pdf) from Jikishinkage-ryu.

Ookami7
30th May 2009, 03:06
Very nice find Alex!!, Thanks for sharing it with everyone!

hurricanf6
10th June 2011, 22:28
I was in japan last year and I picked up a makimono for my sensei. It ran me about 300.00. Its seems to me there should be an easier and cheap way to get these this is the only place I can find online that has them.

http://japaneseshodo.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=9_30

Anyone know of a place you can get these any cheaper?

pgsmith
14th June 2011, 18:08
Here is a place that has them much cheaper, both hand scrolls and wall scrolls ... http://www.orientaloutpost.com/

I've not dealt with them before so, if you buy one, let us know how it turns out.