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Cady Goldfield
30th November 2013, 02:28
aikijujutsu:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRYbfTP-1AA

Carina Reinhardt
30th November 2013, 17:12
A very interesting demonstration, thanks for sharing!

Cady Goldfield
30th November 2013, 18:51
Btw, this is the former Edward J. Smith (AKA Akahisa Tanemura, and also has recently changed his legal name to Salahuddin Muh'min Mohammed). His teacher, according to him, was Tanemura Katsumi, whom he claimed had trained with Sagawa Yukiyoshi and Horikawa Kodo, among others, and allegedly in a number of koryu including Takenouchi-ryu. I have no way of confirming this; however, one of Mohammed's students has written a book (which is where I obtained the above information) that provides a lengthy history, and if anyone is interested I will provide a link to it on Amazon.

Kendoguy9
30th November 2013, 20:44
Hi Cady et al.,

We have discussed Mr. Smith on E-budo in the past. I believe he even posted a reply or two. It seems he has a very poor reputation and many people have made some harsh accusations against his character. Maybe since he found his faith his integrity has improved as well? One can only hope. As for his "aikijujutsu"... I'll leave that for others to debate.

Cheers,
Chris

Hissho
30th November 2013, 22:39
Like old school New York jujutsu demos....:laugh:

Cady Goldfield
1st December 2013, 02:25
Hi Kit,
What he's doing in the video is legit, and that is why I posted the clip. I don't know the truth about his actual provenance, and there is some stuff that's hip-deep on the Internet, but what he's doing looks like aikijujutsu, walks like aikijujutsu and quacks like aikijujutsu, so...

I did see the archived thread he posted on. The guy has had a complex and complicated life and background, but that doesn't detract from what he demonstrates in this short tape. It is what it is, and what it is, is aikijujutsu.

Hissho
1st December 2013, 17:09
My comment is to the ridiculous antics of the uke in this video - as you see in some others, and as were popular with some of the old school New York jujutsu schools.

It really detracts from what could be the interesting things going on, and the idea of "aiki" in general.

Cady Goldfield
1st December 2013, 17:47
My comment is to the ridiculous antics of the uke in this video - as you see in some others, and as were popular with some of the old school New York jujutsu schools.

It really detracts from what could be the interesting things going on, and the idea of "aiki" in general.

Having actually trained that way myself, and knowing what I'm looking at, I can say that he isn't faking or acting. That's exactly what this stuff does to your body. Some people describe it is as "shocky like electricity," but really, that's just the individual's perception. There is no "electric shock" involved, and uke's popping around is mechanical in nature, both to escape pain and because he is being propelled by force (that you can't see, but you can note the cues in nage).

A combination of joint angles and the way nage is connecting to uke's center of mass are doing several things: locking him up (controlling his alignment), stuffing him downward into his center (of mass) and into the ground being two of them. Nage can cause uke to jerk in different directions by subtly "pulsing" force through uke's center via the point(s) of contact and slightly moving his own direction... which then makes uke have move that way too, like he's stuck to the agitator of a top-loading washing machine.

Watch nage's waist area and you may be able to see a very slight jerking as uke gets moved to the side, and watch nage's lower abdomen and lower-to-mid-level of his back when uke is either popped up on his toes or "stuffed" downward. You might be able to see a very subtle rolling or contraction-expansion of the lower abdomen (tandan/dantian) and stretching or expansion of his back (meimon/mingmen).

When uke jerks back and forth, or flops like a ragdoll, his body is mirroring what nage is doing, in much smaller and more concise movements, inside his own body. Think of a whip making big, rolling snaps although the whip wielder is making only tiny movements of his own body and arm.

It can be done both with and without pain. In this clip, nage is using painful locks, and some of them are naturally painful, but most are not. Control is managed by manipulating uke's alignments and center of mass through the point(s) of contact by the manipulations of nage's own body.

Btw, this is not unique to aikijujutsu. A contemporary Chinese internal system I train in uses the same kind of control in their qin-na (jujutsu).

Hissho
1st December 2013, 23:00
Aha, I think I see. Thanks for your explanation.

Cady Goldfield
1st December 2013, 23:36
Kit,
Here is a Chinese version of what you're seeing, though without the qin-na/jujutsu. This is Liu Cheng-De, who is now in his mid-to-late 70s but was about 70 when this video was made. Liu, whose root art is Chen-style tai chi chuan, lived in Japan for 10 years, during which time he taught internal power and aiki to two of Sagawa Yukiyoshi's former students (who evidently were frustrated at not having been able to pick it up at Sagawa Dojo!).

It's harder to see movement in his abdomen, back and waist (though there are spots where he intentionally exaggerates his movements because he is teaching), as he is more refined in his skills than the person in the first video I posted. But he is doing essentially the same exploitation of alignment and the "pulsing" of force through his uke's center of mass. The reactions of uke's body are an expression of what Liu is doing inside his own body, just as the first video's uke's reactions are a reflection of that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGli6r80l5s

Another piece of the puzzle is the ground connection. In order to create the kind of torque needed to throw a person off to the side, without nage compromising his own center, nage is gripping and working the ground as well. This process can be used to create spiraling force up the legs and hips and around the back, and that in turn provides power that can be used for striking and kicking without having to use the torso muscles, moving an unbalanced person, and even for stepping in a way that rockets you across the ground with great force.

Note that people in the crowd, as well as uke, are mimicking what Liu is doing with his arms and outward pivoting; that's not where the focus of power is, though it's definitely part of the direction and expression of power. But the real root of the power is inside him.

Cady Goldfield
1st December 2013, 23:42
...And here's more Liu, this time with taichi qin-na applications. Stylistically, it looks different than aikijujutsu, but Liu is using the same internal principles. Listen to the expulsion of uke's breath from the force of some of those applications. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryhbmLcMWk8

Cady Goldfield
2nd December 2013, 02:07
And... yet more Liu Cheng De, doing his rendition of aiki-age, aiki-sage (upward and downward aiki), and a little bit of mild fajing (expulsion or "pulsing" of force).

This is a very recent video, and Liu must be at least 75 or 76.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OomkogFuhOw

Here is Horikawa Kodo, direct disciple of Takeda Sokaku (Daito-ryu), demonstrating some of the principles.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8H4Fi43pPw

More Horikawa Kodo demos on this publicly available DVD on Amazon.jp:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-language/product/B00GJP2VMK/ref=dp_change_lang?ie=UTF8&language=en_JP

Cady Goldfield
3rd December 2013, 17:14
And... more of Salahuddin Mohammed's aikijujutsu, with martial applications. Note the differences he points out between conventional "external" responses to punches and grabs, and those using "internal" aiki.
In this kind of approach, while it looks like there are zillions of techniques, it's really the body method driving them and opening up the world of options. A basic knowledge of anatomy and human function and a general skill set of throws, punches/strikes, kicks, locks and pins, when coupled with the body method, establishes the foundation for infinite options.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlxpWywLiY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIl5tE-do8Y

Hissho
10th December 2013, 16:36
While musing more on this topic and these videos, I found this. Cross posting again, sorry, but Kevin Leavitt is my new hero:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23174

While semantic, I personally view "combatives" (i.e. "martial" applications) differently than I do self defense, and teach both.

Cady I think you make a fantastic point regarding the need for most people for self defense skills vs. martial applications/combative skills. Even those needing combatives will mostly make use of self defense skills (against groping, minor grabs, for police arrest and control etc. ) than the former.

I think there is a range of situations for which a range of energies and fighting skills apply. The above linked discussion covers pretty much the gamut on the topic, I think.

Kendoguy9
10th December 2013, 17:54
Hi Kit,

"Even those needing combatives will mostly make use of self defense skills (against groping, minor grabs, for police arrest and control etc. ) than the former."

You make mention of combatives vs. self defense and lump arrest and control into self defense. I personally feel like arrest and control is really a unique set of skills different from self defense. Maybe I am splitting hairs here or maybe it is my understanding of the terms and their use?

Cheers,
Chris

Hissho
10th December 2013, 18:59
Chris

You are correct. I am equating them in terms of the overall level of force used in the majority of arrest situations, where locking and joint controls and postural kuzushi and off balancing pretty much handle it, against lower levels of non-cooperation/resistance. Sorry, I was really unclear.

Cady Goldfield
11th December 2013, 01:24
We do need a consensus on terminology, as a lot of people use "martial applications" as kind of a universal term to encompass all physical encounters. I think that most of us outside the LEO, military, corrections and related professions tend not to think about the aspect of MA applications that you call combatives. To me, any life-or-death confrontation with someone who aims to maim and/or kill me, requires combat for survival. So, even a self-defense scenario, IMO, can be a combative one. Life-or-death hostage rescue, or in the violent home invasion of an ordinary citizen when no cavalry comes to the rescue -- aren't there are gray areas here that can make the latter scenario as needful of combatives (as opposed to "self-defense") as the former?


While musing more on this topic and these videos, I found this. Cross posting again, sorry, but Kevin Leavitt is my new hero:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23174

While semantic, I personally view "combatives" (i.e. "martial" applications) differently than I do self defense, and teach both.

Cady I think you make a fantastic point regarding the need for most people for self defense skills vs. martial applications/combative skills. Even those needing combatives will mostly make use of self defense skills (against groping, minor grabs, for police arrest and control etc. ) than the former.

I think there is a range of situations for which a range of energies and fighting skills apply. The above linked discussion covers pretty much the gamut on the topic, I think.

Hissho
11th December 2013, 02:50
We do need a consensus on terminology, as a lot of people use "martial applications" as kind of a universal term to encompass all physical encounters. I think that most of us outside the LEO, military, corrections and related professions tend not to think about the aspect of MA applications that you call combatives. To me, any life-or-death confrontation with someone who aims to maim and/or kill me, requires combat for survival. So, even a self-defense scenario, IMO, can be a combative one. Life-or-death hostage rescue, or in the violent home invasion of an ordinary citizen when no cavalry comes to the rescue -- aren't there are gray areas here that can make the latter scenario as needful of combatives (as opposed to "self-defense") as the former?

Little friendly tweak since we were just having another conversation about terminology:

My own idiosyncratic general usage:

"Combatives" is ANY hand to hand encounter which is a life or death confrontation or could result in serious bodily injury. These are when the use of lethal force or severely injurious techniques are justified. Note: minor bone breaks are not seriously injuries.

The vast majority of self defense encounters and police arrests, even resistive arrests, are NOT combative. These would instead involve more standard awareness, verbal, tactical and contact-evasion, te hodoki type techniques, minor subject control to include medium impact takedowns and osae techniques, and police defensive tactics.

Most people, LE and citizens, have need of the latter far more of the time and don't really need more.

I think whether an instructor does is an open question depending on a variety of variables. Kinda like with the whole topic of aiki, and appropos the thread I linked, a lot of people think they may be doing something applicable in the former that is really more suited to the latter. Which is not a problem since that is what most want and need.

Kendoguy9
11th December 2013, 13:12
Hey Kit,

Thanks for the clarification. I think even in budo there are different terms for simillar arts with different focuses such as yoroikumiuchi, goshinjutsu, and taihojutsu (and about a million other terms). The intended goal is different in each with armor grappling representing combatives, goshinjutsu is self defense and taihojutsu police arresting. Whether the stated goal of each is actually ever reached is another question but at least the division is there. I'm sure there is also lot of overlap just as you stated as well. The difficulty for some of us is balancing what we do with what we need. My Daito-ryu study has become much more taihojutsu like here recently. I still practice the kata and still apply aiki but my intent is different. As you say most pople including police don't need much combatives training but we do need more arresting and self defense.

Going back to the OP how do these taiji and aikido type of demonstrations fit into martial applications? They are interesting to watch. I would really love to see a few of these guys on video like a dash cam or a vest cam getting into the thick of things in a hands on incident that is already out of control when they arrive. It seems like what we are seeing is training videos with junior level students without the intent to do harm by either party. I am reminded of the levels of combat as posted by Chris Amberger in the "Secret History of the Sword." I am at work and don't have my copy handy but I'll pull it when I get home. Basically he lists the different types of training from sport to total combat based on their intended goal.

Anyway there are my rambling thoughts for the morning... time for coffee and donuts :)
Chris

Cady Goldfield
13th December 2013, 00:56
Going back to the OP how do these taiji and aikido type of demonstrations fit into martial applications? They are interesting to watch. I would really love to see a few of these guys on video like a dash cam or a vest cam getting into the thick of things in a hands on incident that is already out of control when they arrive. It seems like what we are seeing is training videos with junior level students without the intent to do harm by either party. I am reminded of the levels of combat as posted by Chris Amberger in the "Secret History of the Sword." I am at work and don't have my copy handy but I'll pull it when I get home. Basically he lists the different types of training from sport to total combat based on their intended goal.


These videos are of an introductory class for a brand-new student who evidently has no prior training. And, the uke looks like a pretty recent beginner as well, with just some basic jujutsu and striking/kicking skills. My interest in these clips was not technique, really, but the fact that the instructor has some internal skill that is observable even though he is doing very slo-mo, relatively gentle technique. And even though he is toning it down a lot, the effect on his uke - the kuzushi - is obvious. For someone who is not "internal" who tries to strike a trained fighter who is, it will feel like he is hitting a rubber-coated stone wall... that sends your force back into you augmented with his added force, which he can direct at will to make you bounce backward, get stuffed downward, jacked up on your toes, or dropped into a hole (drawn off-center and thrown, hard). Add to that the joint controls and alignments, the control of uke's breath/diaphragm and other factors, and it's downright scary. :)

Imagine the uke attacking with full-force intent, and nage acting on it with full force.

I have only experienced this kind of application within the context of a dojo setting, but -- speaking from first-hand experience -- even in a controlled setting, receiving any kind of attack from someone who has this kind of training and body method, can be extremely shocky, paralyzing and disorienting. It can even be damaging, in some unfortunate accident situations - concussions, ruptures, bone breaks, and worse. And that's from training at a moderate degree of intensity or even lighter. People training this way have to have consummate control to prevent injuries. Perhaps that's why many systems of internal arts adopted very ritualistic ways of training -- the stiff-looking strikes, prescribed number of steps in, the "response" and pin... It is easier to manage this stuff in a choreographed setup than in more of an open approach such as a more ramped-up version of what's being demonstrated in these two clips.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts there.

Evisceration
11th February 2014, 07:11
@ cady I believe you are right on the introductory part these techniques are low to mid level in my opinion but an effective demonstration of that art. I have to disagree with the "internal force". I train in daito ryu I can do many techniques at about a similar skill level as the first video I have never had a feeling of internal energy directed at an opponent either in a dojo or in the real world often times it is when im not trying ,distracted ,or dont care when my trchniques work best ( we all have bad trainibg days) . I think that the techniques can be so pefect it gives an illusion of a mystical force which most times defies logic. At the same time if you look at it from a more scientific approach in quantum mechanics our peception/ obsevation of an event can alter its outcome hence believing a technique will work can make it work

saljaber
12th April 2014, 14:04
Here's some recent footage of Muhammad sensei teaching in Atlanta, Ga, Taikai in Pennsylvania and Maryland. I can assure you that what I and others are feeling in this video is real.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ffU-9leKZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGbtcDkYJhM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvn35SUo5G4