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View Full Version : Internal Body Method vs. Traditional Wrestler



Cady Goldfield
4th October 2015, 01:34
Here is about a minute's worth of a two wrestlers; one (in black) using internal body method trained via taijichuan, the other (in grey) using traditional wrestling technique. The video is tightly edited, so we don't know what may have been taken out, so, as always, it can't be discerned here whether the overall outcome of this session accurately reflects what is shown; however, it is still interesting to watch the dynamics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=jfY4IKpmiPY

DCS
5th October 2015, 00:22
I believe the guy in black is the same Ramzi Nabulsi who appears in this 2013 MMA/BJJ documentary.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5de1viH3zJc

Cady Goldfield
5th October 2015, 01:46
Thank you, DCS. We have gotten another confirmation that the wrestler in black is indeed Ramzi Nabulsi.

CEB
5th October 2015, 15:58
I wonder what kind of wrestling was this supposed to be? Neither one seemed to know how to shoot. Especially the one in gray. The guy in black I didn't see shoot. In terms of 'Wrestling' ,my son who is a typical Illinois High School Team captain has better technique. Need to keep your face up when you shoot. You can't stoop over or you will get sprawled all day. The guy in black had some nice arm drags. The couple of ties that were shown the guy in gray lost the battle for head position. Head position is critical in trying to win or control a tie up.

Hissho
5th October 2015, 22:32
Probably "grappling " versus wrestling would be better put, if only because many think of wrestling as Western wrestling like freestyle or Greco.

For another look at a cross trained taiji man/grappler check out Josh Waitzkin. Taiji world champion and BJJ black belt. Yes, the same guy who also happens to be a chess prodigy.

DCS
5th October 2015, 22:43
What Nabulsi does in the clip is run of the mill no-gi BJJ plus some pushing.


For another look at a cross trained taiji man/grappler check out Josh Waitzkin. Taiji world champion and BJJ black belt. Yes, the same guy who also happens to be a chess prodigy.

Who once stated "...to be honest, the purest Tai Chi I’ve ever felt has been getting my ass handed to me, over and over, by John Machado and Marcelo Garcia"

gendzwil
5th October 2015, 22:57
Internal-schmernal, the guy in grey just wasn't any good.

Hissho
5th October 2015, 23:46
What Nabulsi does in the clip is run of the mill no-gi BJJ plus some pushing.



Who once stated "...to be honest, the purest Tai Chi Iíve ever felt has been getting my ass handed to me, over and over, by John Machado and Marcelo Garcia"

:toast:

And truth be known that is/they are a far more demanding litmus test.

Cliff Judge
6th October 2015, 15:00
The thing that I found interesting was the four or five times the guy in black completely redirected the guy in gray. While it did neutralize the guy in gray's charge, the guy in gray was basically only thrown a foot or two away.

Cady Goldfield
7th October 2015, 00:24
The thing that I found interesting was the four or five times the guy in black completely redirected the guy in gray. While it did neutralize the guy in gray's charge, the guy in gray was basically only thrown a foot or two away.

Yes, that was what I was hoping some would observe in this clip. It may not be the best grappling ever, but the redirecting and neutralizing is coming from the internals. When the guy in grey can't get in a grapple, can't shoot the legs, can't find the other guy's center of mass, it's easy to think he's just not very good. But sometimes there are other factors at play, confounding his every attempt to find and control his opponent's center of mass.

Cady Goldfield
7th October 2015, 00:37
Of course, again, the clip appears to be edited, and we don't know if it's just to make things flow, or to showcase the guy in black only when his moves work. ;) I am giving benefit of the doubt. He gets props for being able to maintain his internal structure and to control and move it under duress.

Hissho
7th October 2015, 04:00
And sometime he's just dealing with a better grappler - even one in better shape, which is clear here - grey seems to have some technique but gassing. Nabulsi is using multiple standard grappling techniques that simply show he is a more technical grappler. Good grappling is good grappling, regardless of how its powered. Basically Just Jujutsu...

Redirecting and neutralizing are standard BJJ grappling. The projections are what I see that could be from his internal experience. Its also in sumo. Mind you I find those to be valid tactics and more combat-applicable than much of what we often see in "standard" grappling from wrestling, judo or BJJ. Why? Creating space. Either by making distance or knocking the guy down, or out.

What does space give me?

Room to manuever, and room to access weapons.

In an armed confrontation, grappling is much more about NOT grappling. Its about controlling the grappling so that you don't get tied up, you create space at will, and do with it what you will. Grappling competitions work toward a very different end state and are all about tying up. That's the point. Its NOT the point in combative grappling.

DCS
7th October 2015, 11:19
Yes, that was what I was hoping some would observe in this clip. It may not be the best grappling ever, but the redirecting and neutralizing is coming from the internals. When the guy in grey can't get in a grapple, can't shoot the legs, can't find the other guy's center of mass, it's easy to think he's just not very good. But sometimes there are other factors at play, confounding his every attempt to find and control his opponent's center of mass.

Clearly the guy in grey is not very good technically speaking. If I saw him doing proper shoots and takedowns but being countered anyway I'd think Nabulsi is into something but in this case what we have is a decent grappler in good shape vs a poor wrestler in poor shape. No internals required.

Also, from this other clip...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKxxCMcm47Y

It seems to me they have not been taught to shoot properly.

CEB
7th October 2015, 15:42
Conditioning in king in Wrestling. I live in the Mecca of US Wrestling. The Big 10 has been the dominate Wrestling conference as long as I can remember. Our kids Wrestle before they attend Kindergraten. Just from a self-defense aspect some knowledge of Wrestling is really useful because here there is a good chance your opponent may have some Wrestling knowledge.

Here is an old viideo series I really liked. They were done by some midwest coaches. Vlad was the headcoach at Eastern Illinois and Miron was an Assistant Coach at Ohio State. Vlad lives in Chicago now and is still doing camps and seminars. I don't know about Miron. He maybe back in Europe. But their videos were a hoot to watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B44pSr0Gqt4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdn1LljEWq8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uiIis12EA

gendzwil
7th October 2015, 15:51
Yes, that was what I was hoping some would observe in this clip. It may not be the best grappling ever, but the redirecting and neutralizing is coming from the internals. When the guy in grey can't get in a grapple, can't shoot the legs, can't find the other guy's center of mass, it's easy to think he's just not very good. But sometimes there are other factors at play, confounding his every attempt to find and control his opponent's center of mass.He's just getting stuffed by a better guy. Frankly, I could probably deal with him just as easily and I'm not a wrestler. If you're going to shoot in slow motion you're going to fail. I've played with similar crappy wrestlers who were fighting in judo tournaments.

Hissho
7th October 2015, 18:40
It is always interesting to see actual grappling clips side by side with alternative grappling. Though to be fair the fight training is clearly cooperative exercise. Kudos to them for attempting to put something of it back in to their taiji.

CEB
7th October 2015, 20:47
A grappling school I have only seen on film but looks really interesting is Mongolian Folk Wrestling. I wish Aaron Fields was still active on e-Budo. I think Aaron actually trained in Mongolian Wrestling.

This may be of interest. It is an episode from one of the few martial art TV shows I really liked. The episode on Baihequan was one of my favorites ever.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPqE3JzGTEA