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Hissho
23rd November 2015, 19:37
Posting in Sumo as it seemed to fit: opening a discussion on Chinese wrestling - shuai jiao (note sumo -chin. Xiang Pu -is an old term for shuai jiao) and Mongolian wrestling picking up from the newaza thread.

There are some interesting elements in these arts (and sumo)vis-a-vis a "delivery system" for jujutsu-like skills and in some cases a more combatives oriented approach as opposed to Judo/BJJ. Might be interesting to explore.

Cady if you think this should be posted somewhere else feel free!

mkrueger
24th November 2015, 00:46
Oh interesting, I didn't realize the shared linguistic history for Sumo and Shuai Jiao. Cultural wrestling/grappling practices seem to be a common human trait across many different time periods, locations and cultural backgrounds.

There appears to be some patterns in folk wrestling traditions. Sumo, Shuai Jiao, Bkh (Mongolian), and Glma (Scandinavian) as examples. Belts and jackets being common gripping points (among others). Losing one's balance (being thrown) being a lose-condition.

Common benefits may include a honed sense of timing, distance and balance learned in a competitive environment. Learning to strive against an opponent who wants you to lose with the safety to make "mistakes" and learn from them... All of which are transferable skills to other combative disciplines, where such mistakes/losses may result in serious injury or death. These skills could be a useful "foundation" of transferable skills on which to build later combative training.

I'm curious what some of the interesting elements and delivery system traits for a more combatives oriented approach you see in them.

Cady Goldfield
24th November 2015, 02:39
As we don't have any other place to discuss non-Japanese wrestling traditions, if folks would like to talk about shuai jiao and related forms here, I don't see a problem with it -- especially if a connection or relevance can be drawn to sumo.

CEB
24th November 2015, 17:36
Maybe Aaron Fields will sign in one of these days.

Hissho
24th November 2015, 22:02
Exactly who I had in mind, Ed.

I had a recent conversation with Tim (Cartmell) discussing how in many ways sumo is an excellent basis for combative versus sportive grappling - I've discussed that before in different threads.

Most important is developing the "grappler's body," not only strength, balance, and physical development but sensitivity and timing, as Matt noted, but simply the plain toughness it develops. Mental and physical. Lacking this background - and lacking a methodology to test it safely - is a serious detriment to fighting readiness.

Some advantages I see from these traditions are the emphasis on hand control through an over- and under-hook game (which is less prevalent in pure gi grappling like judo) - the shorter sleeves - or no sleeves - tend to more of this, as well as hand control and a combination of a hook and hand control game, and use of the head: much better for grappling in which striking and weapons access are involved. And while certainly most people wear clothing, we don't always wear longer sleeves conducive to the sleeve grip. Training hand, wrist, and elbow grips can be very important.

Belts and belt grips are an excellent stand ins for either the bottom edge of body armor (modern or historical) or a weapons belt. Certainly not unheard of in Judo, either, but belt grips are more common in these other methods. As are a conjunction of hand/wrist control and a belt grip.

Some wear shoes as well, and that is also more practical.

I'm not talking overall relative skill, but the application of the platform. Fact is much in modern competitive grappling is counter to what one wants to do in a combative situation.

Ellis Amdur
24th November 2015, 23:16
http://www.koreaexpose.com/culture/a-song-for-ssireum-traditional-wrestling-dies-a-slow-death-in-south-korea/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5eyvFYjxgA

Hissho
25th November 2015, 01:31
Sumo - but ties this in - stolen from an earlier thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2BYT...layer_embedded - sorry looks like video pulled...

And a shuai jiao tutorial (Chinese):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBQlugPl2YI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAid8pn16O4