Yamanne-Ryu

[PingAnTu]

Does anybody in this forum practice Yamanne-Ryu Kobujutsu? I practice this style and I absolutely love it. I would love to discuss technique and kata with other dedicated practitioners. If you study another style perhaps we can explore some of the differences among Okinawan, Japanese, and Chinese weapons systems.

If you are interested in an overview of this style, check out the site Oshirodojo.com :nin:

[PingAnTu]

I know that one of you is a Yamanne-Ryu guy, anybody else?

[CEB]

Howdy Neighbor,

How did Yamanni Chinen Ryu find its way to Indiana ?

Ed Boyd:wave:

[PingAnTu]

The ghost of Chinen Sanda showed me the bouncing bo secret in a dream. He said that if I practiced hard, I could be better than him!

[PingAnTu]

The Kishaba Yamanne (or i) Chinen Ryu lineage has been actively taught in this country for the last 20 or so years. So it's not suprising to find some people out here in "hog country" actively studying this martial art. I'm certainly not the expert around here, I'm only a student. But there is an expert close to here.

[PingAnTu]

Sorry, I should also add that it is with Kishaba Sensei's group the RB Kenkyu Doyukai under the national direction of Oshiro Sensei, not a seperate group.

[Brian Dunham]

Hi Paul,
I study Yamanni Ryu in New England.

[PingAnTu]

Thank you to those of you that have contacted me privately letting me know who you are and getting to know you a little bit. Anybody else practice YR?

[Rob Alvelais]

I didn't reply before because you knew that I practice Yamane Ryu.

Rob

[Doug Daulton]

Paul,

I am a Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai practitioner under the instruction of Devorah Dometrich Sensei. Our system includes many of the Yamnni-Ryu kata as taught to Taira Shinken by the Higas, Akamine Yohei and others. That said, our respective bojutsu are now quite different from one another. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

Do you train with Kiyoshi Nishime Sensei of Cincinnati? If you are not aware of him, I believe he was a contemporary and friend of Oshiro Sensei's at Kishaba Sensei's dojo. You may want to look him up. If you'd like, I can provide his contact information.

Regards,

[PingAnTu]

Hi Doug,

I have to admit that I am utterly IGNORANT of other orthodox Okinawan weapons systems. Not that I want to be, I just have never explored beyond what I have seen in this country. One day hopefully, I will be to a point where I can look out of Yamanne Ryu to compare/contrast and explore.

Maybe you could help us out a little bit and give us some background to your style? That would be really cool.

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by PingAnTu ... I have to admit that I am utterly IGNORANT of other orthodox Okinawan weapons systems. Not that I want to be, I just have never explored beyond what I have seen in this country. One day hopefully, I will be to a point where I can look out of Yamanne Ryu to compare/contrast and explore. Paul,

I think you are on the right track. It is best to get a solid base in one art before doing a compare/contrast with others. IMO, jumping around too early can be very confusing and lead to an undecipherable mishmash of technique, not much of which is genuinely useful.

Originally posted by PingAnTu ... Maybe you could help us out a little bit and give us some background to your style? That would be really cool. Rather than going in to a great deal of exposition here, I'll point you at some readily available resources ... <ul><li><a href="http://www.ryukyu-kobudo.org">Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai - US Honbu</a><br> Taira --> Akamine --> Dometrich Lineage <br><br><li><a href="http://www.rkagb.com">Ryukyu Kobujutsu Hozon Shinkokai - UK Honbu</a><br>Taira --> Inoue --> Mead Lineage</ul> As mentioned in my previous post, the system was compiled by Taira Shinken. After his death, the school split into two camps. These two websites represent the two foremost Western components of each of the respective camps.

Both websites contain biographies on the primary teachers of the art. In addition to these websites, I've also recently been fortunate to have a biography of Taira Sensei published in the latest edition of Dragon Times.

This article also includes information on Taira's influence on the weapons study found in several prominent karate ryuha, most notably Isshin-ryu and Shito-ru (Hayashi-ha & Itosu-kai). If you are interested, you can get a copy at Borders bookstore or order it from http://www.dragon-tsunami.org.

Generally, I would also include a link to Mario McKenna's excellent website, Okinawa Shinshukai. However a quick search indicates that it is offline for some reason. So, I'll drop Mario a line and see where he's moved it.

That should give you a good solid background on our system. If you have any questions, just post them in this forum or drop me an e-mail.

Regards,

[PingAnTu]

Doug,

Thanks for the info! I've checked out these sights (well one of them because the other one got hacked into by Chinese cyber-terrorists!). Lots of good information. I also just read Macarthey's work on Taira Shinken. I looked at the kata pictures and they are very similar to Yamanni ryu kata.

Thanks again.

[okki63]

Hi Paul,

I too study Yamanni-Ryu, I have been a student of Oshiro Sensei for only a short period of time but love it also.
How long have you been studying Yamanni-Ryu?

Paul Snader

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by PingAnTu --- ... well one of them because the other one got hacked into by Chinese cyber-terrorists. Paul,

Glad I could help. Check back with Dometrich Sensei's site. All of thi historical info is still present, even after the hack.

Regards,

[Ken Allgeier]

I have a question for the Yamanne Ryu folks.On Toshihiro Oshiro Tapes ( Tsunami Production) he is preforming both Bo & Sai Kata, which are not classical Bojutsu or classical Saijutsi kata,can you explain this situation.Also Oshiro Sensei Bo kata's on the video tape does not conform to the methodology of classical Ryukyu Bojutsu, why the change?Also can you list the names of the classical Bojutsu & Saijutsu kata used in the Yamanne Ryu.




Thank You


ken allgeier

[PingAnTu]

Hi Ken,

I'll take a stab at answering your questions. As I have stated, I am not an expert but only a student. I in no way represent an official position on this subject. Perhaps you could go to a seminar with Oshiro Sensei or Nishime Sensei to ask them because they would know best, but here's my 2 Yen.

For a list of the kata, check out the website listed on the first post of this thread. Notice that there are traditional kata and foundational kata.

Classical vs. Modern...

You have to understand that this style is new to the modern group-based approach to instuction. It is a classical style with classical kata but the problem is that in recent times, they saw that they were not able to teach classical kata to groups of people. The classical kata are very detailed and very difficult to perform correctly. So, in modern Yamanne Ryu there are new foundational kata designed for group instuction. I haven't seen the tape you're talking about but maybe it was one of the modern ones. It probably is Shujinokon, if that's the case it is indeed classical.

It's similar to Shorin-Ryu when Itosu created the Pinan Kata. he figured out that for group instruction, you need to help people with simple kata first. They need to develop a foundation first -- therefore the Pinan kata. The same is true of Yamanne Ryu. The classical kata of Yamanne Ryu have always been taught one-on-one until very recently. So there are classical kata and now, there are modern foundational kata so people can get a handle on the basics. Some of these were created by Kishaba Sensei.

In case you think that Oshiro Sensei just made his stuff up, he didn't. There is no change in methodology. As far as classical Ryukyu Bojutsu, Yamanne Ryu is classical but it is unique.
The methodology of Yamanne Ryu is unique because of its body dynamics (mechanics), footwork, and use of the bo ("bouncing"). It is a combination of Jinen-Ryu Kenjutsu from Japan, ancient Okinawan bojutsu and nothern Chinese staffwork. From Sakugawa to Matsumora, then cultivated by three generations of the Chinen Family, to Sensei Chogi Kishaba and finally to Shinzato Sensei, Oshiro Sensei and Nishime Sensei. By my definition, classical styles are historical and powerful and presently taught in their fullness. Yamanne Ryu fits that discription.

Upper class vs lower class...

There are different types of classical bojutsu in Okinawa because there are differet types of people. The peasent class did styles that were more linear and could be used with less training. They worked out in the field all day and didn't have a lot of time. The upper classes had money, they could travel to get new information and they had time to train. It's a fact that Sakugawa Sensei trained in Kyushu, Japan and Beijing, China in the late eighteenth century. Yamanne Ryu is a product of this research done by a court official.

Bojutsu vs Saijutsu...

As far as saijutsu, Yamanne Ryu is traditionally a bojutsu style. In Okinawan history, they used all kinds of weapons but the bo was the most important. There is a saying that it takes three years of training the sai for every one year of training the bo for the sai to beat the bo. In modern times, Yamanne Ryu is branching out and taking the unique body dynamics of the bojutsu and putting it into the secondary Sai, Kama, and tuifa. I would rather get hit by a mack truck than get hit by a full sai swing from Oshiro Sensei, but there's no question that the bo is the most important study of yamane Ryu.

Other Yamanne Ryu guys... If I stated anything incorrectly, please correct me!

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by PingAnTu
Hi Ken,

I'll take a stab at answering your questions. As I have stated, I am not an expert but only a student. I in no way represent an official position on this subject. Perhaps you could go to a seminar with Oshiro Sensei or Nishime Sensei to ask them because they would know best, but here's my 2 Yen.

For a list of the kata, check out the website listed on the first post of this thread. Notice that there are traditional kata and foundational kata.

Classical vs. Modern...




Classical vs. Modern? I don't know what that means.

The bojutsu (other than Yamane ryu) that I've seen doesn't seem to take full advantage of the attributes of the bo. They tend to grab the thing in thirds and not adjust the grip to take advantage of the stick's length. Yamane Ryu does.

Do you mean (not you paul, Ken ) ;) that the "Kime" isn't as obvious as in other styles? Right, it isn't as obvious, but it's there.



You have to understand that this style is new to the modern group-based approach to instuction. It is a classical style with classical kata but the problem is that in recent times, they saw that they were not able to teach classical kata to groups of people. The classical kata are very detailed and very difficult to perform correctly. So, in modern Yamanne Ryu there are new foundational kata designed for group instuction. I haven't seen the tape you're talking about but maybe it was one of the modern ones. It probably is Shujinokon, if that's the case it is indeed classical.



Oshiro Sensei presents a simplified version of Shuji no Kon which is really close enough for govt work, to the standard Shuji no Kon of Yamane Ryu. It's a classical kata to us, as Paul indicates above.
He also presents a couple of the foundational kata that just might be unique to RBKD-USA (Ryubi No Kon, Choun no Kon Sho/Dai) I found these kata excellent preparation for Shirotaro or Sakugawa no Kon.




It's similar to Shorin-Ryu when Itosu created the Pinan Kata. he figured out that for group instruction, you need to help people with simple kata first. They need to develop a foundation first -- therefore the Pinan kata. The same is true of Yamanne Ryu. The classical kata of Yamanne Ryu have always been taught one-on-one until very recently. So there are classical kata and now, there are modern foundational kata so people can get a handle on the basics. Some of these were created by Kishaba Sensei.

In case you think that Oshiro Sensei just made his stuff up, he didn't. There is no change in methodology.




Indeed, Oshiro Sensei is trying to blaze the trail for Yamane Ryu that Itosu or Yabu Kentsu and their peers did for Karate. One tool in their arsenal, evidently was to create "fundamental" kata. Enter Choun no kon (Not the same kata as the one in Matayoshi Kobudo. This one was created by Kishaba), and Donyu no kon. It's a difficult task to relate the unique body dynamics and subtleties of this style of bo to a large group of people with varying backgrounds. Another way to help people understand is to introduce other weapons that, by their nature, emphasize certain types of body movements. (Enter Sai, Nunchaku, etc.)



As far as classical Ryukyu Bojutsu, Yamanne Ryu is classical but it is unique.
The methodology of Yamanne Ryu is unique because of its body dynamics (mechanics), footwork, and use of the bo ("bouncing").

Indeed!


It is a combination of Jinen-Ryu Kenjutsu from Japan, ancient Okinawan bojutsu and nothern Chinese staffwork.

My understanding is that there's some spear thrown in as well.




From Sakugawa to Matsumora, then cultivated by three generations of the Chinen Family, to Sensei Chogi Kishaba and finally to Shinzato Sensei, Oshiro Sensei and Nishime Sensei. By my definition, classical styles are historical and powerful and presently taught in their fullness. Yamanne Ryu fits that discription.

Upper class vs lower class...

There are different types of classical bojutsu in Okinawa because there are differet types of people. The peasent class did styles that were more linear and could be used with less training. They worked out in the field all day and didn't have a lot of time. The upper classes had money, they could travel to get new information and they had time to train. It's a fact that Sakugawa Sensei trained in Kyushu, Japan and Beijing, China in the late eighteenth century. Yamanne Ryu is a product of this research done by a court official.

Bojutsu vs Saijutsu...

As far as saijutsu, Yamanne Ryu is traditionally a bojutsu style. In Okinawan history, they used all kinds of weapons but the bo was the most important. There is a saying that it takes three years of training the sai for every one year of training the bo for the sai to beat the bo. In modern times, Yamanne Ryu is branching out and taking the unique body dynamics of the bojutsu and putting it into the secondary Sai, Kama, and tuifa. I would rather get hit by a mack truck than get hit by a full sai swing from Oshiro Sensei, but there's no question that the bo is the most important study of yamane Ryu.


The main course of Yamane Ryu is indeed the bo. The other weapons are the MSG. ;-)


There's another element. Sometimes a karate person can come to understand the role of Hikite in their punch by working with a bo. In much the same way, some body dynamics involved with Yamane bo is brought to light by practicing with another weapon, through it's unique characteristics.





Other Yamanne Ryu guys... If I stated anything incorrectly, please correct me!

Ya done good, there Paul!

rob

[PingAnTu]

Ken,

Just out of curiosity, what is classical Ryukyu bojutsu methodology? Are you talking about mechanics and the way you hold and use the bo?

Everybody else...

The thing I really like about this style is that it is a dynamic style (or a living style). What I mean is that the kata are not static movements, but instead are designed to allow you to practice all kinds of footwork and movement. There are specific ways to train technique but once you get to an understanding of the basics -- the kata changes! Once you get an understanding of the next level, it changes again! You might practice the principles of offense in a kata and then change it to defense in the same kata. This is in line with the dynamic nature of fighting. Yamanne Ryu kata train the principles of fighting along with the techniques.

All of the kata have an equal emphasis on fighting movement and power development. Yamanne Ryu power generation throws the intrinsic power of the mechanics into the striking section of the bo. The methodology is to get out of the way of the bo and to encourage the power with sound mechanics. I've personally seen both Oshiro Sensei and Nishime Sensei accidentally break their hardwood (purple heart) bo's in mid-swing. Think about it... that's incredible! I couldn't break one standing on it between two chairs -- much less in the air! They get really mad when that happens because they accidentally directed the energy to the mid-section of the bo instead of the striking section. 99.99% of the time, they do it right so that's exceptionally good in my book.

The funny thing is that if you are not familiar with the mechanics, the bo just seems to snap in half with little effort because you can't see the path of the energy. But if you can see the "methodology" there is a whole new world to explore in your practice of Bojutsu or emptyhand.

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by PingAnTu ... The thing I really like about this style is that it is a dynamic style (or a living style). What I mean is that the kata are not static movements, but instead are designed to allow you to practice all kinds of footwork and movement. There are specific ways to train technique but once you get to an understanding of the basics -- the kata changes! Once you get an understanding of the next level, it changes again! You might practice the principles of offense in a kata and then change it to defense in the same kata. This is in line with the dynamic nature of fighting. Paul,

This is a great observation. IMO, "rational fluidity" is one of the things that distinguishes arts from science. Once fundamental concepts are understood, they can be applied and re-applied in a vast variety of ways depending on the practitioners level of understanding.

Regards,

[Ken Allgeier]

Hello Paul,


One the video tape Oshiro Sensei is preforming the following modern kata: Suuji no Kun, Choun no Kun sho & dai, Ryubi no Kun.The question I have is this, in the Yamanni Ryu are the classical Bo kata's preformed in their classical manner( i.e. no changes made) or is the bouncing Bo methodology used in the preformince of the classical Bo kata.

Quote:

"There are different types of classical bojutsu in Okinawa because there are differet types of people. The peasent class did styles
that were more linear and could be used with less training. They worked out in the field all day and didn't have a lot of time. The upper classes had money, they could travel to get new informati and they had time to train"


Paul,

The only classical Bojutsu kata from the agrainian class that I know of is the rare " Shimajiri no Kun" from Shimajiri village in the southern tip of Okinawa, between Ara Misake and Mabuni ga oka.







ken allgeier

[Doug Daulton]

Folks ...

FYI: I've added Oshiro Sensei's link to the Forum link list. You can refer to it as needed.

Regards,

Doug Daulton
Moderator
Okinawan Martial Arts

[Doug Daulton]

Originally posted by Doug Daulton ... Generally, I would also include a link to Mario McKenna's excellent website, Okinawa Shinshukai. However a quick search indicates that it is offline for some reason. So, I'll drop Mario a line and see where he's moved it.Paul & Co.

I promised you an update on Mario McKenna's site. Here it is. I wrote Mario. In his reply, he said he has taken the site down because folks were lifting the information and not crediting the site. He is considering compiling the information into a handbook for later distribution.

If this happens, I'll let everyone know via these forums.

Regards,

[PingAnTu]

Doug, thanks for the info.

Ken,

I practice the Yamanni style. Anybody who puts time and effort into a style thinks that it is the best method on earth and I have to admit I am not always immune to this malady. If I sound a little defensive here please take it in stride. Having said that...

I think your question is whether or not the classical Yamanni ryu kata are truly classical because classical methodology does not include the bouncing technique. Right?

Well, your question seems a little loaded and presumes that you know the true classical way to perform the classical kata. May I respond by saying that I didn't live in the eighteenth century -- and neither did you or any of your teachers or mine-- so I don't know what the cohesive classical method is. In fact, I don't believe that there ever WAS a TRUE Ryukyubojutsu as if there is only one historical bojutsu that comes from RyuKyu. Also, kata changes from generation to generation and does not exist in a time capsule -- that's a fact.

The classical forms I've been taught so far do indeed use the bouncing bo technique. Not only in the standard 45 strike but also in the pokes, side strikes, overheads, etc... It is one of the signatures of the Yamanni style. It is very difficult to do properly but it is very effective. Back when people actually used bo for self defense, one of the Chinen family members supposedly once cut a man's arm off with his bo with this technique -- I don't remember which family member. This technique was honed by Chinen Kanga (sp?) who one night had an inspirational dream of a bo bouncing between both ends on the ground. When he woke up, it was still bouncing (O...K....?). But I don't know if that was the beginning of this technique or if the dream only solidified Chinen's understanding of the technique. When I say "bouncing", it means that the bo does not come straight down but goes down and out around the fulcrum as you get your body out of the way. If somebody is good at it, you can't distinguish it but you can certainly feel it.

As far as agrarian class forms, there seems to be many kata that have the same names as true warrior class forms but are in fact agrarian class forms. I read once in an interview with the distinguished Hohan Sokon that it was common for peasants to name their bojutsu forms the same names as the warrior class forms to sound fancier. So might there be "classical" kata like Sakugawa no kon that are -- shall we say, less than authentic? The Yamanni Ryu Sakugawa has a very clear nothern chinese influence -- reference the backwards fade away leap into an elongated crouched stance -- AND a very clear kenjutsu influence. To me, this points to the historical figure Sakugawa who studied in Northern china and southern japan. Is it really authentic? I don't know, I didn't live in the eighteenth century. But I will say this, Yamanni Ryu as it is taught today to people that make it past the foundational stuff is just as sophisticated in it's principles and techniques as the Chinese internal martial arts I've been involved in -- this is saying something because these arts are sophisticatedly functional indeed.

As far as the kata, you are of the idea that Shujinokon is a modern kata. I'm not an expert on these things but as far as I know, Shujinokon has always been the first kata in Yammani Ryu. Also, why would the form include techniques to knock a rider off his horse if it was a modern kata? In the old days you went straight from shujinokon to Sakugawa no kon. If you couldn't get the meaning of the kata, you didn't get taught any more. In this way, they only taught prodigies.

The other kata you mention are modern. Choun no kon was created by Kishaba Sensei. I've heard that they were created by request of the Okinawa Prefecture government for use in the school system. Ryubinokon, I believe, is Oshiro Sensei's work to get people more prepared for Sakugawa-no-kon -- I'm glad he did it because I know it helped me out alot.

This style is not something that you can do two nights a week. You have to train every day and you have to think about it alot. Otherwise, you diminish the potential of the style and you cheat yourself of principles that you will never see because you didn't work hard enough. My experience so far has confirmed this and as long as it continues, I will continue. Such is a mark of any true classical style.

[Shikiyanaka]

There are different types of classical bojutsu in Okinawa because there are differet types of people. The peasent class did styles that were more linear and could be used with less training. They worked out in the field all day and didn't have a lot of time. The upper classes had money, they could travel to get new information and they had time to train. It's a fact that Sakugawa Sensei trained in Kyushu, Japan and Beijing, China in the late eighteenth century. Yamanne Ryu is a product of this research done by a court official.

As interesting and practical and impressing and whatever you like it to be:

Chinen Aburaya as well as Chinen Sanda were Chikudun Pechin. Chinen Masami of course had no rank, because Ryûkyû kingdom had been abolished in 1879.

The main ranks from low to high were:
- Chikudun Pechin
- Satonushi Pechin
- Pechin
- Oyakata
- Anji
- Ôji

(From Oyakata to Ôji sometimes also the terms Dunchi and Udun are used to describe the rank, for example Soeishi Dunchi).

Chikudun Pechin was the starting level in the rank system of Ryûkyû Kingdom. Those guys were allowed to carry a Bô. Thats why it is completely reasonable to assume that Chinen lineage is based on Bô.

Other styles are also based on Sakugawa-ryû Kunjutsu, but also carry the teachings of Chatan Yara (Pechin), Hama Higa Pechin, Soeishi Dunchi, Chikin Shitahaku Oyakata Seinori, etc. pp.

Why are other Kobudô supposed to be peasant styles, whilst they have people in their lineages which where much higher in rank than Chinen?
I am not able to understand that reasoning, but maybe that's just me.

Regards

[Shikiyanaka]

Just a note to the story that a member of the Chinen family cut off the arm of someone with his bô:

There is a note by a well-known Okinawan Kobudô authority in a paper prepared for a China-Okinawa Karate meeting in Fuzhou, China, in the 80's, that Chinen Aburaya had a bô with blades at both ends.

[PingAnTu]

A bo with two blades on the ends!!! I want one too!

This thread is like... three years old.

Hello Shikiyanaka. Don't get all up in arms. I'm not saying that there is YamanniRyu which is classical and everything else is agrarian. I only stated that YR is a classical style of courtly derivation. I believe I outlined several reasons for this conclusion. Further, all traditional kobudo I've personally seen is choppy, stiff, and static with more emphasis placed on the end of the movement instead of the MOVEMENT. I'm sure I haven't seen all styles though. What I don't see in most Karate or kobudo is fluidity, pliability, and mechanical power generation.

This thread is three years old and I've since continued studying this style and I have to admit... It's friggin hard! I don't suggest it for people with a passing interest.

On the other hand I'm continually suprised by the sheer coolness of this style. I just learned a new Sai kata yesterday called Kishaba no Sai Sho. Not classical but whoa... what a cool kata. Lots of quick 360 degree turns, sneaky footwork and interesting techniques. Very fluid and powerful and lots of good kungfu!

[Shikiyanaka]

Hi PingAnTu,

its all good. I guess every word of yours about Yamanni technique, kata etc. is your true feeling. I am OK with that and wouldn't dare to question it. Also, I think I saw the Sai Kata you mentioned and sure its got class.
Your conviction speaks for all you guys and it would be bad, if this wasn't so. Isn't it that every ryû got its pride as a part of its curriculum? ;)

Little suggestions on other styles - also or especially if they are not named specifically-, however, give rise to speculations and should be dealt with with extreme caution. I recently made some intentional provocative comments in a different thread and was lucky to not stand eye to eye with the other person. :)

Not everyone is a world champion. At best one may view other practitioners with a "live and let live" habitus; this at least prevents from reckoning airs and graces. In my dôjô sympathy is part of our dôjôkun. This not only means knowing all the hurts and pains, but also to not thoughtlessly throw in other peoples shortcomings. Everyone is assailable from the one or the other perspective.

Again, its all good with me. I just wanted to add my thoughts on the hierarchy of Ryûkyû Kingdom. And in this, there is no need for other Okinawan styles to justify anything. In fact the advertisive momentum of using categories like
"courtly vs only-partly-courtly vs non-courtly"
is much too easy and most notably not correct. To my limited knowledge, which I am open to be corrected, there seems to be no traditional Kobudô on Okinawa which has not at least a similar qualified lineage or even a demonstrable "higher" origin than Yamanni.
Again, my point is just about the origin.
Regards

[aka.chef]

I am new to this Forum, as a matter of fact this is my first post.

This may be after the factI have a very good friend that practices Yamanne-Ryu and actually teaches seminars every summer at George Mattson's annual Summer Camp at the Maritime Academy. I will get his background for you. He has been practicing for many years. Let me know if your are still looking.

Regards,
Chef

PS I have been on several forums and this one is set up really well. Nice job!

[Shikiyanaka]

Dear V. Scheffler, gentlemen,

if you have the possibility to ask first hand informations, then I would like to place an important question which you may ask your friend:

Although there is virtually nothing which can't be found, in written Japanese media there is not much to be found about Yamanni style (apart from little entries in Funkashi's writings, later by Taira Shinken, Inoue, Matayoshi, the BRD). In western works, it was only when Mark Bishop wrote his "Okinawan Karate" in 1987, when first hand information were spread. He wrote, based on his first hand research:


In 1956 he [Seitoku Higa] started to learn Yamani-ryu bojutsu from Masami Chinen who gave Higa the Shihan grade in bojutsu four years later.


Yamani-ryu (also Yamane-ryu) was formed by Masami Chinen who taught bojutsu (the art of the staff) on a private basis at his home in Tobaru village, Shuri. The style ceased to exist after Chinen's death, but some of his katas are preserved by Seitoku Higa of the Bugeikan and Shugoro Nakazato of Shorin-ryu.

So we have a Shihan certificate in Yamani-ryu bojutsu from 1961. Furthermore in connection with the existing Shihan license, as Bishop said "The style ceased to exist after Chinen's death", it of course means that no written permission had been handed out to anybody to be entitled to carry on Masami's style, suggesting that nobody learned it sufficiently (At the time of Masami's death in the middle of the 1970s Japanese style Budô licenses and titles were found all over Okinawa, so I guess Masami would have known the need to recognize a persons mastery.).
This all coincides with the information that only some of Masami's Kata have been preserved (BTW, that's what I also heard from other eyewitnesses of the time in Okinawa, and the Kata were Shuuji and Sakugawa).
In none of the Japanese texts - which have all the persons you may ever have heard of - the name Kishaba Chogi appears (neither as a student of Miyagi Chojun nor) as a student of Masami Chinen nor anywhere else.
It was only in the second edition of Bishop's book, from 1999 (!!!), after "it has been brought to my notice", as Bishop paraphrases it, that Kishaba Chogi's name appears, saying he was a student of Masami Chinen and the teacher of Oshiro T., who

promulgated a popular version of Yamane Ryu that has been modified for tournament competition [...].

I really do not doubt that Kishaba Chogi maybe was a student of Masami Chinen (and maybe also Miyagi Chojun) and I know there were Yondan in Yamanni-ryu in USA as early as 1984 or so (when the whole development began, you know...), but if
a.) only some Kata have been preserved, known to have been by Seitoku Higa and Shugoro Nakazato, and
b.) already in 1961 Masami gave out a Shihan license in Yamani-ryu bojutsu (to Higa Seitoku), and
c. the popular version of Yamane Ryu has been modified by Oshiro T. for tournament competition,

(Here are my side questions)
then:
- are only students of Masami Chinen entitled to use the name 山根流, or also studnets of Chinen Sanda?
- is the Yamanni-ryu dynamic based on Masami's study of the peasants bojutsu (Shimajiri bo) or has it been older from times of Chinen Sanda, or is it from one of Chinen Sanda's other students?
- did Kishaba and Oshiro study with some of the many other Yamani bojutsu teachers who have been 1st or second generation students in the lineage of Chinen Sanda?

(Here is my main question)
What traditional Kata did Kishaba Chogi exactly learn from Masami Chinen, and in what period of time, and is there any clear proof or recognition of a certain mastery of the style given out by Masami Chinen to Kishaba Chogi (like a Shihan certificate, as the one Higa Seitoku received already in 1961), and if so, why the need to modify the Kata for tournaments if the genuine and original dynamic were already in the traditional Kata, and what did the modification looked like?

I hope this is not too bewildering and I am really looking forward to your reply.

[bujutsustudent]

Hello Andreas, my names is Shaz and we have spoken before on Yamanni Chinnen ryu subject matter. I would be happy to clear up more of your questions. First and foremost, many people such as Shuguro Nakazato and Higa Seitoku studied with Masami Chinen. I cannot comment on their abilities because I haven't seen either of them move. Kishaba Chogi sensei studied under Masami Chinen for about 28 years. His abilities were and are recognized and documented by Masami Chinen, the Prefectural Government of Okinawa and still by the Chinen family. Chinen Teruo sensei of Goju-ryu (Grandson to Masami Chinen who didn't learn Yamanni Ryu) as well as many others such as Morio Higoanna recognize and remember him and his involovement with not only Masami Chinen but Chojun Miyagi. As far as what katas he learned..they are suuji no kun sho, suuji no kun dai, sakagawa no kun, shirataru, tomari shirataru, yunegawa, sunakake, and chikin/tsuken bo....they are listed on Oshiro Sensei's website. They are all from Masami Chinen and codified by his grandfather Sanda Chinen. This was an art practiced by the ryukyu nobles and although some practicioners who may not have grasped the art, combined it with farmer style techniques, Masami Chinen and his student Kishaba Chogi have not. Many people have trained with Kishaba Sensei. However, his two highest ranking Shihans are Nishime sensei and Oshiro sensei. They are both my teachers and are arguably at their highest levels in my personal opinion. Sensei Oshiro and Sensei Nishime are not only talented karate Instructors, their Bojutsu is almost magically powerful and fast. Both teachers teach this art and its unusual body mechanics in a very traditional sense. However, they introduce it at many tournaments in hopes people will embrace it as a way to better understand body mechanics in general. The modification of kata is because without this beginning method, it would be far too difficult to teach and show this art to a lot of people. ...so they created basic kihon kata with Kishaba Sensei's approval wich help develop the concepts many students need to understand the traditional kata. The modified kata are basic..his video released from dragon tsunami shows the basic modified kata.However, to reach the highest levels of Yamanni-Chinen ryu you will find yourself discarding the modified versions and only practicing the traditional version. On Oshiro sensei's website www.oshirodojo.com..he discusses this further in an interview. I hope this helps
regards Shaz DSouza RBKD

[Shikiyanaka]

Dear Shaz, thanks for your time and energy. As you know from our previous communication, I am not a believer and I am very sceptical, not in regards to technique, but rather to recognized lineages. I have great appreciation for those maintaing a tradition as well as for those developing and upgrading it. And I am also impressed by the many great technicians in martial arts.
I however find hard to believe the tohuwabohu of incoherent details in the claims being made within Chinen Yamanni-ryu, especially the direct transmission of more than two or three Kata from Chinen Masami to Kishaba Chôgi. But in any case, if there is any proof for this, I would be happy to be corrected. So let me point to a few things.


First and foremost, many people such as Shuguro Nakazato and Higa Seitoku studied with Masami Chinen.

It is recorded that Higa Seitoku in 1956 started training with Chinen Masami and recieved Shihan Menkyo from him in 1960 ((*1, p. 725) (昭和３５年　山根流棒術師範免許状授与さる。 ) A Shihan Menkyo is an official document and as it was issued personally by Masami Chinen I think this is a most proper recognition. Higa's Yamane-ryu may bear his personal handwriting. But as he recieved his Shihan Menkyo in 1960 it shows that a technical skill has been fixed at that time; thus it would be an opportunity to compare with the more modern claims having been made.

It is also recorded that Akamine Eisuke studied Yamane-ryū Bôjutsu from Higa Seiichiro since 1948 and Higa Seiichiro, Higa Raisuke and Akamine Yôhei (all students of Chinen Sanda, Masami's grandfather) have also been recorded as consultants of RKHSK as of 1977 (*1), and Masami Masami was also a consultant (*2).

I have more Japanese language accounts stating the same and they are all from around 1977 and afterwards and after Chinen Masami's death. I prefer those accounts as they are older and they describe the settings of the time. This can't just be ignored by saying "we have something secret" or so, because, as Chinen Masami gave a diploma, it is obvious that there never was secret and that others would have gained one, too, if there was reason to do so.


Kishaba Chogi sensei studied under Masami Chinen for about 28 years. His abilities were and are recognized and documented by Masami Chinen, the Prefectural Government of Okinawa and still by the Chinen family. Chinen Teruo sensei of Goju-ryu (Grandson to Masami Chinen who didn't learn Yamanni Ryu) as well as many others such as Morio Higoanna recognize and remember him and his involovement with not only Masami Chinen but Chojun Miyagi.
I am pretty sure they all know all each other. E.g., Tamayose Hidemi of Ryukyu Kobudo Tesshinkan remembers Oshiro as a school mate. Higa Seitoku has recieved an official diploma after 4 years of training (see above). If Kishaba Chôgi - who maybe studied under Masami Chinen in whatever meaning you may interpret "study" - should have such a written diploma it may be allowed to ask for it's existance and what it states (Shihan Menkyo, or Menjô etc.). Also there are maybe more hints on such a diploma, like "the person learned Bôjutsu for a long time" or "... reached this or that level" etc. It should be in your mind to provide such an information, if it exists (as Miyagi Chôjun did not give our diploma or ranks, it would also be intersting to know how long Kishaba trained under him, if he continued training with others).

As for the recognition of the Prefectural Government of Okinawa; I wans't able to find one until now. Maybe you were talking about the Bôjutsu Kata which Kishaba developed at request of his towns branch of Okinawa Board of Education and made into a video (and the Kata later was designated "not working" and thus being upgraded with other templates, i.e. parts of other Kata)? At least the dôjô list with some 400 entries provided by the Okinawa Board of Education, which is part of the Prefectural Government of Okinawa, shows two entries which are in connection with "Kishaba Bôjutsu" schools (*3):

#1
Name of Association or branch: Okinawa Karate-dô Matsubayashi-ryû 沖縄空手道松林流
Dôjô name: Kishaba-juku (Kishaba Private school) 喜舎場塾
Name of representative: Shinzato Katsuhiko 新里勝彦
Location: Yonabaru 〒901-1302 与那原町字上与那原301
Genre: Karate-dô and Kobudô 空手道・古武道
Training days: Tuesday and Friday, 21:00-23:00: 火・金：21:00-23:00
Training subject: 18 Kata of Matsubayashi-ryû (Shuri-te, Tomari-te) and Kobujutsu (Bô and Sai) 松林流（首里手、泊手）１８の型、古武術(棒・サイ )

Added: The Kishaba-juku has six schools in USA.

#2
Name of Association or branch: Okinawa Shôgen-ryû Karate-dô Kyôkai 沖縄松源流空手道協会
Dôjô name: Tamaki Karate Dôjô 玉城空手道場
Name of representative: Tamaki Gô 玉城剛
Location: Matsuyama in Naha-city 〒900-0032 那覇市松山2-22-1-410
Genre: Karate-dô and Kobudô空手道・古武道
Training days and subject: Mondays and Fridays, Juniors 19:15-20:30, adults 21:00-22:30. Wednesdays Yamane Kishaba-ryû Bôjutsu 21:00-22:30. 月・金：少年部19:15～20:30　一般部：21:00～22:30　水：山根喜舎場流棒術　21:00～22:30

Added: Tamaki Gô was/is board chairman of the Nagamine Dôjô and can be seen performing a great Shiromatsu no Kun on the Shidokan website. One can clearly see the development of the Kata since the 1960's, which we know from some video.


As far as what katas he learned..they are suuji no kun sho, suuji no kun dai, sakagawa no kun, shirataru, tomari shirataru, yunegawa, sunakake, and chikin/tsuken bo....they are listed on Oshiro Sensei's website. They are all from Masami Chinen and codified by his grandfather Sanda Chinen.
I do not agree with the Kata all can be traced back to Chinen Masami or even Chinen Sanda. I am quite confident that Kishaba learned a bit, say Shuuji and Sakugawa, and afterwrdas with Oshiro et.al. developed most of the new "old" Kata using the templates existing on Okinawa at the time and their own ideas of what they should look like, and that's ok with me. The tracing back to Ryukyu kingdom times is an artificial construction and stating that they were the original form stemming from Chinen Masami or even Sanda via Kishaba is simply unbelievable to me. I also bet that much of the used templates came from Kyan Shin'ei, one more person from Nagamine Dôjô.


This was an art practiced by the ryukyu nobles and although some practicioners who may not have grasped the art, combined it with farmer style techniques, Masami Chinen and his student Kishaba Chogi have not.
Shimajiri no Kun was a "farmer art" and it was made by Chinen Masami. What has happened to this Kata? Has it been given a new "old" name and re-dated to Ryûkyû kingdom times?


"Yamanni Ryu, the most aristocratic of the Okinawan weapon arts, has in the past been taught exclusively to the most dedicated martial artists, and then only by direct transmission, master to student." (*4)
It is clearly not "the most aristocratic of the Okinawan weapon arts." Concerning aristocracy, it was at best medium.

BTW, was Kishaba Chôgi the board chairman of a nursing home for the elderly (yôgo rôjinhômu) founded 1992 as the social welfare corporation of Kyukai (77th birthday association)?

In any case: Kishaba was/is a much respected Bô-master. But the lineage question, the open diploma question, the upgrading Kata taken from different sources while at the same time claiming it is the true original art handed down only from Chinan Sanda via Chinen Masami to Kishaba Chôgi, is hard to believe.
After all, I think the naming as "Yamane Kishaba-ryû Bôjutsu", as Tomaki Gô does it, is a more accurate way of naming this tradition. I think this adequately describes the method of upgrading, which is good and which is what I think Yamanni-ryû really means here. Then, it should however not be re-dated.

*1: Uechi Kanei (supervision): Saisetsu Okinawa Karate-dô. Sono Rekishi to Gihô. Uechi-ryu Karate-dô Kyôkai, 1977. p.707, 709
*2: Taira Shinken: Shinpen Zôho Ryûkyû Kobudô Taikan. Editor: Inoue Kishô. Commentary: Miyagi Tokumasa. Yôju Shorin, (Ginowan, Okinawa) 1997. ISBN 4-947667-42-7, p32-34.
*3: Okinawa Karate and Kobudô Dôjô List. Executive Committee of 2003 Okinawa Karate and Kobudô Sekai Taikai. Okinawa Prefectural Board of Education. 沖縄空手道古武道道場一覧. ２００３沖縄空手道古武道世界大会.)実行委員会. 沖縄県教育委員会.
*4: Text from the back of Video cover of "Yamanni Ryu. Okinawan Bo-jutsu" (Dragon Times 1996).

Cheers

[TimJurgens]

Paul,
Rather than going in to a great deal of exposition here, I'll point you at some readily available resources ... <ul><li><a href="http://www.ryukyu-kobudo.org">Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai - US Honbu</a><br> Taira --> Akamine --> Dometrich Lineage <br><br><li><a href="http://www.rkagb.com">Ryukyu Kobujutsu Hozon Shinkokai - UK Honbu</a><br>Taira --> Inoue --> Mead Lineage</ul> As mentioned in my previous post, the system was compiled by Taira Shinken. After his death, the school split into two camps. These two websites represent the two foremost Western components of each of the respective camps.

Both websites contain biographies on the primary teachers of the art. In addition to these websites, I've also recently been fortunate to have a biography of Taira Sensei published in the latest edition of Dragon Times.



You may also want to have a look at www.ryukyu-kobudo.com It is the site that Emile vanHeerden is maintaining for Akamine Hiroshi the Third President of the Association. We also have some good content and have access to some of the people that have a little less contact with the west and may not be as well know.

[Nyuck3X]

For another perspective, why not ask McCarthy Sensei. He is Yamaneryu
through Oshiro Chojo. http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/new_video_release.htm

I'm sure he would be happy to answer any questions regarding his lineage.

Peace.

[Patrick McCarthy]

For another perspective, why not ask McCarthy Sensei. He is Yamaneryu through Oshiro Chojo. http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/new_video_release.htm

I'm sure he would be happy to answer any questions regarding his lineage.

Peace.

Folks,

How can I be of help?

Andreas, very nice to see you here and great training with you in Germany, too. Read your comments, and, as always, very well researched and presented. My compliments to you.

Shaz: Are you the student of Mr. Oshiro [with the same name] who wrote the very rude e-mail to me in 2002?

[Rob Alvelais]

Folks,

How can I be of help?


I'd like to hear your perspective on the history of Yamane Ryu, especially as it relates to Chogi Kishaba.




Shaz: Are you the student of Mr. Oshiro [with the same name] who wrote the very rude e-mail to me in 2002?

If you're talking about Toshihiro Oshiro, I'd be astonished if he was computer adept enough in 2002 to send you any emails, let alone a rude one.
Now, a fax on the other hand....;)

Rob

[Rob Alvelais]

For what it's worth, I just officiated at a karate/ryukyu kobudo tournament yesterday. A Shorinkan group from Chico was there and some of their students did "Yamane no Shuji no kon". The kata is virtually identical to the Shuji no kon that I learned in the RBKD, under Toshihiro Oshiro.


Rob

[bujutsustudent]

Hello Sensei McCarthy, I'm not sure I understand your post. I have never sent you an e-mail let a lone a rude one. I have actually gone so far as stating somewhere on a post on this site, e-budo.com that I had heard some nice things about you and respect what you have done for Okinawan Koryu. Past that, I try to engage in as much educated discussion as I can. I am not an authority on any martial art let a lone Yamanni Ryu...I can only talk about what it is I know. As far as politics, I try to give everyone a fair shake and stay out of politics...if there is anything you would like to know about me..feel free to ask me...Thanks again...regards Shaz Dsouza RBKD

[Patrick McCarthy]

Dear Rob san,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Kishaba Chogi
As nothing that I know of appears about Kishaba Chogi in traditional Japanese sources [other than the testimony written by his own students---principally that written by Oshiro Toshihiro, a mention in an Uechi Ryu publication, and a little in a new publication by Hokama Tetsuhiro, recently translated into English by my friend Joe Swift] I am afraid that my knowledge of the gentleman is rather limited. TTBOMK, English sources describe Kishaba Chogi as the most visible student of Chinen Masami. Of course, as you already know Mr. Kishaba's most visible students are Nishime Kiyoshi, Prof. Shinzato, and your own teacher, Oshiro Toshihiro. I'm sure that there must be a few others, too.

While I have only ever met him briefly in Okinawa, along with Prof Shinzato, one of my friends [Katherine Lokolopolous] knew him fairly well back in the 1980's, and one of my American-based kobudo students [Mike Rosati of NYC] trained with Kishaba Chogi privately for five days back in 1990, when he and Prof. Shinzato visited the USA. They all [Oshiro, Nishime, Minakami, Miyazaki & Rosati] later drive out to Reno together where Mike also underwent a three-day Kishaba-ha Yamane Ryu seminar. I also understand that Chogi Sensei was a karate student under Miyagi Chojun while his brother, Chokei, studied under Nagamine Shoshin. I have watched him perform bojutsu and have a video of him, too, and I was very impressed by his skill, especially for his age. Actually, his smooth and elegant movement reminded of my own teacher when he was younger; he's now 87. The following is what I know about Chinen Masami.

Chinen Masami [16 October 1898-1978]
Chinen Sanda, the founder of Yamane Ryu [also spelt Yamanni Ryu] passed away in 1928 [although other sources suggest 1922] at the age of 82 leaving behind him the following students [that I know of]; Kohinda Saburo, Gibo Kamado, Gusukuma Rio, Nakasone Seiyu, Yabiku Moden, Higa Raisuke, Higa Seiichiro, Higa Ginsaburo, Akamine Yohei, Chinen/Chitose Tsuyoshi [the nephew of Chinen Sanda], Maeshiro Chotoku, Oshiro (Ogusuku) Chojo (1887-1935), widely regarded as his most prominent disciple, and his own grandson, Masami, who was quite well known for his Sakugawa bo. According to Japanese sources [Miyagi Tokumasa, Hokama Tetsuhiro, Kinjo Akio, Kinjo Hiroshi, Fujiwara Ryozo, etc.] Higa Seitoku and Nakazato Shugoro trace their lineages to Chinen Masami, even though their technique would seem to prove otherwise. Nakamoto Masahiro [Tori Hori Bunbukan] also studied under Maeshiro Chotoku [a student of Oshiro Chojo], as did Tokuyama Seiken [who also studied with Oshiro Chojo, if only for a short time], the grandfather of Hokama Tetsuhiro. Kyan Shin'ei [of Awase village, and well known amongst Nagamine Shoshin's group, as were the Kishaba brothers] also learned bo-jutsu under Oshiro Chojo and Ufuchiku-sai-jutsu under Kina Shosei. Historically speaking one might even argue that Yabiku Moden/Taira Shinken and Matayoshi bojutsu trace their roots back to Yamaneryu, too. TTBOMK, Higa was the only one certified by Masami Sensei to teach his interpretation of his grandfather's style. Of course, that certainly dosn't mean that he didn't receive permission to teach---obviously, he must have--- it just means that I cannot locate any historical documentation of it. My own teacher, Kinjo Hiroshi, is well known for having studied under Hanashiro Chomo, Gusukuma Shimpan, Tokuda Ambun and Oshiro Chojo but has no "official" licence either.

[B]Chinen Masami Karate
As for karate, TTBOMK, Chinen Masami began his training in at ten years old while in the sixth grade under Gusukuma Shimpan. Three years later he started training with Hanashiro Chomo. In 1914 Masami sensei learned sanchin directly under Higaonna Kanryo [citing Hokama Tetsuhiro]. His training with Chinen Sanda included the cudgel method of Sakugawa Kanga, the Sunakake method of Tsuken, and the three Chinen-based forms Shuji, Shirotaru and Yonekawa [the later he favored with his left hand] developed by his grandfather.

I have a little more historically based writing here http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/new_video_release.htm with a few photos, too. There are a few more photos here http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/Oshiro-ha%20Kobudo.htm but they're mostly about my own Yamane Ryu lineage.

Dear Shaz san,

Thanks for responding to my query and the clarification. Nice to meet you. If you'd like to contact me off line, I'd be more than happy to send you the e-mails in question.

Kind regards to you both

[Rob Alvelais]

Pat San!

Thanks for the reply. :)


Dear Rob san,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Kishaba Chogi
As nothing that I know of appears about Kishaba Chogi in traditional Japanese sources [other than the testimony written by his own students---principally that written by Oshiro Toshihiro, a mention in an Uechi Ryu publication, and a little in a new publication by Hokama Tetsuhiro, recently translated into English by my friend Joe Swift] I am afraid that my knowledge of the gentleman is rather limited. TTBOMK, English sources describe Kishaba Chogi as the most visible student of Chinen Masami. Of course, as you already know Mr. Kishaba's most visible students are Nishime Kiyoshi, Prof. Shinzato, and your own teacher, Oshiro Toshihiro. I'm sure that there must be a few others, too.


I believe we have a mutual acquaintance, George Donohue, who is a student of Chogi Kishaba and Prof. Shinzato.



I also understand that Chogi Sensei was a karate student under Miyagi Chojun while his brother, Chokei, studied under Nagamine Shoshin. I have watched him perform bojutsu and have a video of him, too, and I was very impressed by his skill, especially for his age. Actually, his smooth and elegant movement reminded of my own teacher when he was younger; he's now 87. The following is what I know about Chinen Masami.


That squares with what I've been told about the Kishaba Bros. by my bo instr, T. Oshiro.

Thank you for your very informative historical post. I appreciate your taking the time to jot that down.

Yes, Mr. Kishaba was quite impressive, especially for his age. He does a mean Seiyunchin, too!

Perhaps you might be able to lend some insight to me. As I've mentioned, I've seen the Shorinkan guys performing kata with the same enbusen as the kata that I learned under Mr. Oshiro. (Shuji and Sakugawa no kon) . I noticed that they don't do the fluid manner of wielding the bo that you demonstrate in your tape or that I was taught in "Kishaba-ha Yamane ryu" under Mr. Oshiro.


Is it your opinion that Yamane Ryu bo is done in that fluid, whipping way or is Kishaba unique, in that he doesn't wield the bo in the manner that Chinen sensei taught, (as has been suggested in these forums, )?


Woul you know if Chitose Sensei passed on his bo to his karate students? Would Mr. Dometrich have picked up some Yamane Ryu from Chitose Sensei?


Thanks again,


Best regards,


Rob

[Patrick McCarthy]

Hi Rob san,


Perhaps you might be able to lend some insight to me. As I've mentioned, I've seen the Shorinkan guys performing kata with the same enbusen as the kata that I learned under Mr. Oshiro. (Shuji and Sakugawa no kon). I noticed that they don't do the fluid manner of wielding the bo that you demonstrate in your tape or that I was taught in "Kishaba-ha Yamane ryu" under Mr. Oshiro.

I had a Shorinkan friend [Jim Silvan] from Concord/Walnut Creek CA, who used to go out to Chico twenty years ago or so to teach. I know he studied with Oshiro for a while [I don't know how long] back then. Perhaps they learned from him. It's been my experience that folks can learn from one source but not look the same when they perform the dynamics of that style. In fact, I see it all the time. I think part of the reason is that some teacher's are too quick to impart technique when fundamental competency has not yet been achieved. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Silvan is such a person, I'm only making the observation and providing a possibility. It happens all the time.


Is it your opinion that Yamane Ryu bo is done in that fluid, whipping way or is Kishaba unique, in that he doesn't wield the bo in the manner that Chinen sensei taught, (as has been suggested in these forums, )?

I think the question might be better served if you asked the same thing of Oshiro and or Nishime. IMO, those guys are in a league all by themselves with no one even remotely close to them...with all due respect to Mr. Kishaba & Prof Shinzato. That's how I see it anyway.

Concerning the whipping action of our style and the possibility that it being the unique domain of Kishaba sensei...interseting observation but I don't believe so. I strongly believe [and am quoting my teacher when I say] that all bojutsu [all kobudo for that matter] should reflect such actions, and supported by corresponding footwork, and body mechanics. However, there are a few ideosyncrasis in Kishaba-ha Yamane Ryu that I have not seen elsewhere and that, I believe, certainly would constitute a signature action/technique found no where else.


Woul you know if Chitose Sensei passed on his bo to his karate students? Would Mr. Dometrich have picked up some Yamane Ryu from Chitose Sensei?

I know Mr. Dometrich fairly well [I have taught at his dojo several times] and I respect his karate very much, as I do his kobudo, but I think in all fairness it's much more Taira-based, no doubt due to the influence of his daughter, Yoshiko Dometrich.

Yoroshiku

[Rob Alvelais]

Hola Senor McCarthy!
Thanks for your reply. :)


Hi Rob san,



I had a Shorinkan friend [Jim Silvan] from Concord/Walnut Creek CA, who used to go out to Chico twenty years ago or so to teach. I know he studied with Oshiro for a while [I don't know how long] back then. Perhaps they learned from him.

It's been my experience that folks can learn from one source but not look the same when they perform the dynamics of that style. In fact, I see it all the time. I think part of the reason is that some teacher's are too quick to impart technique when fundamental competency has not yet been achieved. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Silvan is such a person, I'm only making the observation and providing a possibility. It happens all the time.


I see your point and I see that sort of thing happening a lot. I'm not confident that the situation that you describe above was operative in this case.

Jim was my classmate, along with Carl Hultin in Mr. Oshiro's morning bo classes. I consider the two to be my seniors in bojutsu. I don't think that Jim was going up to Mr. Haley's (Chico) at the time. Also, I remember speaking to Mr. Haley, a year or so ago about this version of Shuji no kon, that his students were performing. He indicated that the source of this form for him was Mr. Nakazato.



I think the question might be better served if you asked the same thing of Oshiro and or Nishime. IMO, those guys are in a league all by themselves with no one even remotely close to them...with all due respect to Mr. Kishaba & Prof Shinzato. That's how I see it anyway.

Yes indeed, they're quite exceptional bojutsu practitioners! However, in a very general sense, I see that they, Mr. Kishaba and Mr. Donahue (student of Mr. Shinzato) move generally the same. The Shorinkan people that I've seen tend to move more like the Taira-based bo that I've seen.


Concerning the whipping action of our style and the possibility that it being the unique domain of Kishaba sensei...interseting observation but I don't believe so. I strongly believe [and am quoting my teacher when I say] that all bojutsu [all kobudo for that matter] should reflect such actions, and supported by corresponding footwork, and body mechanics. However, there are a few ideosyncrasis in Kishaba-ha Yamane Ryu that I have not seen elsewhere and that, I believe, certainly would constitute a signature action/technique found no where else.


Thank you for your observation. It clears up some things in my mind. :)



I know Mr. Dometrich fairly well [I have taught at his dojo several times] and I respect his karate very much, as I do his kobudo, but I think in all fairness it's much more Taira-based, no doubt due to the influence of his daughter, Yoshiko Dometrich.

Yoroshiku

That makes sense. I Know that I've seen Mr. Dometrich's students at the AAU Nationals. I've had the honor of working a ring with him at Nationals. However, since all of the competitors wear the same uniform (white dogi and AAU patch) I didn't know which of the competitors were his or not.

Thanks again for your reply!

Rob

[nobida]

I'n not here to change anyone's mind, because it seems people have their minds made up already. I will, however, contribute a little to this older conversation (i just came across it today) with a bit of my own thoughts.


If Kishaba Chôgi - who maybe studied under Masami Chinen in whatever meaning you may interpret "study" - should have such a written diploma it may be allowed to ask for it's existance and what it states (Shihan Menkyo, or Menjô etc.). Also there are maybe more hints on such a diploma, like "the person learned Bôjutsu for a long time" or "... reached this or that level" etc. It should be in your mind to provide such an information, if it exists (as Miyagi Chôjun did not give our diploma or ranks, it would also be intersting to know how long Kishaba trained under him, if he continued training with others).

I trained in Yamanni Ryu with Oshiro Toshihiro for almost 20 years. I also trained with Kishaba Chogi for the three years I lived in Okinawa (1994-1997).

I remember a conversation I had in Kishaba's dojo one night. During one a mid-class break in one of Kishaba's classes, I asked sensei about the menkyo kaiden.

We were all sitting in a corner of a room, and Kishaba answered me with a very short reply, one in which I could not understand at all, given that it was a mix of hogen and very masculine Japanese. It was up to another member of the group to explain to me in more simple terms (I forgot who it was), but the gist of it was that at the time Kishaba was training with Chinen it was not a given that people got menkyo kaiden in Okinawan martial arts: that tradition was more a practice seen in Japanese martial arts than it was in Okinawan ones. Okinawan martial systems traditionally did not place such a deep emphasis on records, certificates, and licenses.

Oshiro, in fact, said a similar thing in an interview with Dong Tran. (http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo_int_dong.html)

OSHIRO: "I believe there were other Yamanni-ryu instructors. They learned from Masami Chinen or his grandfather Sanda but I heard that only Kishaba sensei knows all the Yamanni-ryu katas. Other people may have studied from Masami sensei or Sanda sensei but how many people can really say they learned from them? No one can claim Menkyo Kaiden because there's no such thing. The word doesn't even exist in the Okinawan language."

I am not saying that okinawan martial artists never received these papers, as it has already been pointed out that some of them did. And I am not asking any of you to believe what has been said to me. I myself have no reason to doubt the knowledge and honesty of the poeple I trained with. Even so, given what they've said, I am wondering how many people received these menkyo kaiden in Okinawa prior to World War II, when schools started to get more students and organizations were forming in a big way.

if it really wasn't a common practice, then it might not be so unbelievable that a smaller more secretive style such as Yamanni Ryu didnt give them out, as they were looked upon merely as pieces of paper.

[bujutsustudent]

Hello Nobida-san, my name is Shaz D'Souza. I am a proud student of Nishime Sensei and Oshiro Sensei for the past 5 years. I have unfortunately never had the pleasure of meeting alot of Nishime Sensei or Oshiro Sensei's students due to the fact that I have always taken private lessons. I really enjoyed your post and have heard the exact same information from Shihan Oshiro and Shihan Nishime. It must have been wonderful to train under Kishaba Sensei. Since Shihan Oshiro and Shihan Nishime speak of him so often, he is truly someone I would love to meet. I am actually in Japan right now for a month or so and will be back in San Francisco where I currently reside. Yamanni Ryu is a very unique martial art and testiment to Okinwan martial arts...lately, it has only been getting more difficult..but Sensei Oshiro and Sensei Nishime always keep it interesting! Anyway, hopefully we will meet sometime....a pleasure
Shaz DeSouza
RBKD