View Full Version : Aikijujutsu in New York

Marc Stowe
11th February 2001, 01:27
There is a Daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu Takumakai study group forming in the New York City area (Manhattan specifically), under the direction and supervision of Kawabe sensei, and Umei sensei in Japan. We are, at this point, just a couple of students working out together, and one of us is at least half-way to Shodan. Please note ===> we are only a study group at this point, not a dojo, although both sensei in Japan are interested in visiting us from time to time (& vice-versa). Currently we meet only on Saturdays (2:00pm) and we're planning on adding an hour Wednesday evenings. If anyone is interested, please contact Rodrigo Kong (917)548-9989 for more details. Thank you,

Marc Stowe

Your best?
Losers always whine about their best.
Winners go home and F#+* the prom queen!
-Sean Connery

14th February 2001, 09:03
Hi Marc,

It is great that we have a new study group in Takumakai!

Many Takukumakai top teachers will visit us this year: Mori, Kawabe, Amatsu, Umei and some 3 and 4 dan students. We have two training camps in spring one in summer and one in autumn. These training camps are for members only. Care to join us in Helsinki? email me for details.

Please, send my best wishes to Rodrigo.

Jyrki Rytilš
Takumakai, Helsinki

Nathan Scott
15th February 2001, 02:37
Mr. Stowe,

Congratulations! That's great to hear. Good luck with your group, and please keep us updated on your progress and activities.


Marc Stowe
15th February 2001, 23:33
Thanks to all who recently replied to my original post and expressed their best wishes for our group's success. And Jyrki, please keep me informed of any future seminars.
Rodrigo contacted me and asked me clarify something in my original post so as not to create any misunderstanding;

The NYC Takumakai study group is NOT an officially sanctioned dokoukai at this point, i.e., we are not yet considered to be an official study group. Having said that, Rodrigo did want me to point out that he is only one kyu away from being elligible for dokoukai status, and both Umei sensei and Kawabe sensei are aware of our existence.

22nd February 2001, 16:14
May I inquire which member of the Takumakai gave the members ofthe NYC group their instruction?


Mark Jakabcsin
22nd February 2001, 19:47
Mr. Wizard,
You would be more likely to get a response if you used your real name as require by the e-budo rules. Unless Wizard is your real full name and it's a Cher, Madonna kinda thing. :)


Nathan Scott
22nd February 2001, 20:17
Hello Mr. Wizard,

Welcome to E-budo! Please sign all posts with your real, full name per forum policy. This can be configured in the "signature" section of your user profile.


24th February 2001, 04:16
Mr. Wizard,

Greetings. My name is Rodrigo Kong. I am honored to be a student of Kawabe Sensei and Umei Sensei of the Takumakai. They are both extraordinary teachers.


Ville J.
7th March 2001, 12:50

As you can see from my name I'm also from Finland. I would like to ask you questions about Daito-ryu Takumakai. Have you practised any other styles, especially the ones that are dominant in Finland? If you have, what are the main differences compared to Daito-ryu? I practise hokuto-ryu(beginner), but I'm very interested in these traditional styles.

Ville Janatuinen

13th March 2001, 17:07
I am looking for a school in the NYC area. I goto college now and am looking to get into this art soon once my injuries heal but love to talk to people about it. I recently sprained my ankle and punctured my other foot in an acident but in a few months would like to get into the martial arts.

Nathan Scott
15th March 2001, 23:05
Hello Mr. Tenchi-Muyo,

There are at least two qualified instructors in the NY area, and probably others that aren't coming to mind: Roy Goldberg Sensei (Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai) and Miguel Ibarra Sensei.

Ibarra Sensei has a web page for his art at:

Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu Yamabushi Kai (http://members.aol.com/kaiden)

You may be able to find out more information about them or contact information by asking around or checking the yellow pages.

If your interested in contacting either of these instructors, PM me and I will forward your request to him.

I will need your full, real name per forum policy though, and return contact information.


Gene McGloin
16th March 2001, 15:50

As I recall, Goldberg sensei is well outside of the metro area, Rockland Co. I believe. Ibarra sensei is in the Bronx not far from two subway lines. There are a two of informal Daito ryu groups I know of in Manhattan proper. One is the Takumakai group whose contact info is listed in the "Takumakai study group in NYC" postings, the other rents space at Biwako Eizan ryu jujutsu dojo on St. Marks Pl.

Good Luck,

Gene McGloin

17th March 2001, 04:21
I am interested in joining your group. I have a background in the martial arts but that was very long ago but very enthused and determined to learn. send me a pm so we can talk

Giovanni De Vincenzo

john rey saavedra
30th March 2001, 06:51
Hello Mr. Tenchi Muyo,

The Ibarra's of Yamabushi Aiki Jujutsu can help you with your interest in Daito Ryu.

You can also open the website of Daito Ryu Rengokai, a fellowship of Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu practitioners in Cuba, in Ontario, Canada and in the other parts of the globe. And post your inquiry there. They may be of great help to you.

John Rey Saavedra

31st March 2001, 23:40
Thanks to everyone who emailed me sorry I didn't get back to you have been very busy lately and still recovering from my injury. Just recently had to get a shot in the ankle from al the water build up in there.

Looking foward to hitting the mat with some of you guys **Slam**

--Giovanni De Vincenzo

Howard Popkin
1st April 2001, 01:57

There is also A Roppokai School in the NYC area.


Howard Popkin



Gene McGloin
1st April 2001, 03:41
Originally posted by Howard Popkin

There is also A Roppokai School in the NYC area.


Is there a dojo in the 5 boros? The website gives a Nassau or Suffolk number for the dojo.


Gene McGloin

Howard Popkin
1st April 2001, 13:27

It's Nassau, but it is very close to the LIRR stop so many people from NYC have no problem getting here. It is on the Babylon line- 40 minutes from Penn Station.


17th April 2001, 18:40
I am looking for Daito-ryu dojos in the New York City area with instructors directly associated with one of the three main lines of Daito-ryu in Japan.

That associated with Kondo Katsuyuki
or Takumakai or Kodokai

Devon Smith
17th April 2001, 18:55
Peter, if you haven't already done so, take a look below at two threads already started regarding NYC AJJ.

17th April 2001, 19:19
Hi Devon;

Could you post the names of the threads - there are a lot of threads none seem very specific to the what I'm looking for.

Without trying to step on toes - there seems a lot of Aikijujitsu schools out there with connections to the source which are not exactly clear.

The person I am asking for as very clear relationships to Shodokan Aikido Honbu which is a style derived from a pre-war student of Ueshiba. The relationship to Daito-ryu is quite strong and I think it would do him a world of good to explore the relationship.

Devon Smith
17th April 2001, 20:38
Hi Peter,

You may find some info within these two threads:


18th April 2001, 02:09
Thanks Devon - I've passed on the information.

4th January 2002, 02:47

I am new to this forum and I am interested in Daitoryu. Is it possible for some of you to list ( partial is ok) your experience with Daitoryu. As an Aikidoka it has been difficult to find anyone teaching real Daitoryu in the United States, but this forum seems to have many experts on the subject.

I live in NYC. Any direction to someone in this area would be appreciated!

Thanks for your help!

Sorry for listing this twice!

Michael Hunt

Dan Harden
4th January 2002, 16:26
There are no experts here. We do not post on anything of substance. You won't find anything of true value written here.

Why not just stick with Aikido. There are any number of people here that will tell you that all the arts are the same, and all the principles are too, and no art is more effective than any other, and all Aiki is what was taught in the sword arts from three hundred years ago. Just ask them. The Aiki of DR is just Judo and thatís the same as JKD. There are "just so many ways to move the body"Öor so I am told.
I know guys who see a dog lift its leg and its Karate to them. Kendo Is Shinto ryu. Just ask em. Everything is applied universal theory.
So, if you have studied TKD or Goju or Aikido or Mikes Kooratee at the mall- you already know Daito Ryu. You just didnít know that you knew. So why bother?

Think of it like seeing the rich fertile fields of Tuscany in the dirt of your own back yard. Itís all the same right?
So could stay home Youíve seen it all..

What makes you think you will see something you don't already know?
Why the Daito ryu?


Cady Goldfield
4th January 2002, 18:14
I think now it's time for Nathan to play the "good cop" part...

Ron Tisdale
4th January 2002, 20:01
Hi Dan,

Sounding a bit jaded, perhaps?

Just kidding :) I'll give a reason. Since it is a commonly accepted fact (nowadays, anyways) that aikido comes from Daito ryu, my main reason for studying Daito ryu when I can, is that it informs my aikido practise. Understanding the locking, entering, and mental/psychological differences has proved to be a benefit to me personally in my struggle to improve both my technique and my understanding of the development of aikido. I have also found it possible to incorporate all of the principles outlined by Kondo Sensei's book on Daito ryu into my aikido practise.

That said, my exposure to Daito ryu is at such an elementary level that I cannot say if continued exposure will yield the same benefits. I am hopefull though. Part of the reason for that hope is that I practise a style based on the prewar training of Gozo Shioda. Part of that hope is based on the fact that Gozo Shioda continued to train under Horikawa Sensei, long after he "left" Ueshiba Sensei. Part of that hope is the gushing enthusiasm of ignorance. Ah such bliss!

Ron Tisdale

PS above I say "long after". Upon further qualification from someone I trust, I'd like to amend "long after" to "sometime after".

Nathan Scott
4th January 2002, 22:47
Contributors might want to hold off on entertaining Mr. Hunt's request until he has answered my post on the Takumakai thread.

This is his second post on e-budo, and his "real" name happens to be the same as a pretty worn out forum-troll name.

Hopefully Mr. Hunt, from "somewhere in NY", will set the record straight for us.

Dan Harden
4th January 2002, 23:35
Hi Ron

Mr Big was being sarcastic. He knows whats up and he was slamming those that post here and alluding to the "expertise" that he, and he alone, claims they supposedly portray.

I was returing his sarcasim, and just being sarcastic in general about all this stuff.
There are guys here that have been in Budo for most of their lives and not one of them speaks about anything as if they were an expert either.................so much for that nonsense.

I have an idea where MR. Big comes from and he is simply flipping the bird to all and sundry.
It is one of the reasons I have jokingly said in the past that the Aikijujutsu forum is a forum that .......ain't.
No one ever talks about it.

My guess is that He's not a troll- we may even know him.


5th January 2002, 00:34
Firstly, let me say that I had no choice in this name and after this experience I wll consider changing it.

Second, I don't exactly understand. If none of you claim to study Daitoryu or have practiced it in the past, what is there to talk about?

I have studied Aikido under Saotome in his dojo in Washington D.C., but now reside in NY.

I asked Saotome Sensei once about Daitoryu, because he made mention of it in one of his books. His response was less then informative, but he knew enough about it to make it sound like it was an important thing, that's all.

Mr. Keen was kind enough to respond to me personally, but it doesn't seem that anyone else really has much to say except insult a new member of the forum.

Aikido, like most budo, is supposed to be a path that leads us towards positive actions and reactions to people. I can only imagine what most of you might do when someone really needs help.

Michael Hunt
Queens, NY

Nathan Scott
5th January 2002, 00:59
Mr. Hunt,

If you are being serious, and your given name is really Michael Hunt (say "Mike Hunt" fast a few times), then you might want to reconsider how you presented yourself here.

Your email address, user profile and user name, and the tone in which you posted - not to mention the questionable "real" name presented - all point to someone who is most likely immature at best, or provoking and aggressive at worst.

Some of us have been on the net for a relatively long time, and have developed pretty good instincts about new members.

I do not see why it is necessary for anyone here to defend themselves or the contributions they make in this forum. My public credentials can be found on my web page, and perspective on managing this forum at the top of this forum.

As Dan said, nobody on this forum has specifically presented themselves as an authorized spokesman for a Daito ryu branch. This is done deliberately so that there will not be any confusion with forum contributors misrepresenting their arts. The majority of the information posted and discussed in this forum is historical in nature, and was obtained through publicly published English language sources.

This is a discussion forum, not an experts forum. If you have something to contribute, please do so. If you have a reasonable question that can be posed in a polite fashion, please do so.

But I will enforce the forum policy posted at the bottom of the forum pages.


Cady Goldfield
5th January 2002, 02:16

Note that Mr. Hunt hasn't used the name "Mike" in his sig. His question sounded on the level to me, and I didn't sense any sarcasm or phoniness. But then, maybe I'm just being naive. :rolleyes:


As the others have said (in all sincerity), no one here considers himself an expert, but they are sincere practitioners and exponents of these arts. They're also a bit skeptical because a lot of people appear out of the blue and ask very up-front questions about Daito-ryu and who-does-what. Most DR schools are very conservative and do not share information about their art.

Traditionally, someone who was truly interested in pursuing a particular art -- especially a classical one -- would do so discreetly by writing private letters of inquiry, finding someone connected to the ryu to provide a letter of introduction, or something like that. They wouldn't broadcast an announcement that they were looking for a school. They don't come to you; you have to go to them. It's part of the traditional etiquette. That Brently-san wrote to you privately, is a gift to be appreciated.

If you are serious in your pursuit of information about DR, there are numerous posts on this website addressing the art. I'd also recommend Stanley Pranin's book, "Daitoryu Aikijujutsu" (Conversations with the Masters). It provides a historical backdrop that will be valuable.

5th January 2002, 04:32

Thanks for your response.

I don't understand something. When someone looks up information on Yamada, it isn't improper or boastful to say that he trained under O'Sensei.

I am just looking for information about someone, or really anyone who studied Daitoryu. Really for just a starting point, I guess.

Thanks for writing.

Michael Stuart Hunt.

Cady Goldfield
5th January 2002, 09:09

DR just is a more conservative art than aikido. Its exponents keep things "within the family," and don't talk openly about their ryu or its teachers. Don't take it personally. You'll just have to do some homework.

Besides Stanley's book, I also recommend that you subscribe to his on-line Aikido Journal (boy, I hope he gives me a discount for all these great "plugs" I'm giving his stuff! ;) ), which contains lots of articles, and more, on Daito-ryu. Do the legwork and you'll be rewarded.


Dan Harden
5th January 2002, 13:09
Mr. Hunt

Assuming you are sincere-a few pointers.

We only talk about things "relating" to Budo and most of the information offered will be documented source material to aid in research or knowledge.
If you do a little research you will find many people here who train in classical arts. NONE of them-not one-claim to be expert in anything. Your use of the term is equal to calling someone a "grandmaster" or some similar nonsense. Further, you will find that we seldom -if ever- talk about our affiliations or teachers. I have seen several people actually refer to their own schools in the third person-as if they don't belong, still others have disavowed any connection unless asked directly.
If you don't understand it - learn.
Get involved- and you will be the same way and understand.

Do you know people who call themselves experts in their arts?
Did Saotome teach you this?
Do you speak for him or just represent him?

Ahhh......... bet that pushed a few buttons neh?
that's why we shy from affiliation.

Most Architects and Doctors I know of like to think of themselves as "practicing" their disciplines. I haven't met the person with enough experience (or should I say ignorance) to call himself an expert yet.

Funny that you hailed from a location that had Daito ryu, studied under a teacher who knows Daito ryu teachers, and you now reside in a place that has Daito ryu-but you haven't heard of anyone "in" it. How coincidental.

As Nathan pointed out your post pushed too many buttons......up went our troll alert.

And with sincere people we are very nice. The real information happens privately-if at all.


5th January 2002, 13:37

Thanks for the advice. I thought I was doing research.

I think I get it though.

I wouldn't want to say that I actually got it because that would be claiming expertise or affiliation with sarcasm-ryu jitsu do.

On a slightly different note, what is the point of discussing something with someone when neither person has a point of reference? Still slightly confused. Nonetheless, I will strive to make politically correct internet posting part of my self-education process. Apparently I'm still a novice in that art.

Thanks for your help.


Joseph Svinth
5th January 2002, 14:43
Mike --

If doing research, it is possible that you would find something of interest at one or more of the following links:

 http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/index.htm
 http://www.daito-ryu.org
 http://www.daitoryu-roppokai.org
 http://www.shinyokai.com

As for Daito-ryu being hard to find, well, I have to agree with Dan. I mean, when Corporate MoFos write about aiki jujutsu in New York, you know it can't be all that hard to find.


5th January 2002, 15:39
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Apparently I have opened a huge can of worms.

I recieved an e-mail from a Jason Brinn. I don't know who he is, but I think you will get the idea and meaning of his letter.

I will quote it for you!

This is not the entire letter, but it is a direct quote!


He then went on to discuss [TWO OTHER INSTRUCTORS. NS] and didn't have nice things to say about them either.

Maybe I should just say I'm sorry, and move my research somewhere else.

Thanks anyway,

Joseph Svinth
5th January 2002, 15:56
Michael -- When quoting private e-mail in a public forum, it is customary to omit the name of the person who sent it to you. After all, had that person chosen to post publicly, then presumably s/he would have.

Dan -- I didn't know so many people knew you so well!

5th January 2002, 17:19

Sorry about the breach in protocal, but when someone is badmouthing lots of people, it's wrong.

He deosn't even know me, I might be this recurring troll, as I have been called.

Ever hear of a 6'5, 265 pound troll?


5th January 2002, 17:34
Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm truly sorry that I intruded on your website.

It seems that someone asking a genuine question isn't welcome.

To those of you that were helpful, Thanks!

If there are people who are interested in helping someone locate an instructor, I'd be happy to hear from you via e-mail.

Happy New Year.

Michael Hunt

Dan Harden
5th January 2002, 18:46
Well Mike how very sweet.

1. He doesn't have my training right.
2. I don't squelch conversations- I contribute-sometimes at length.
3. No we don't talk about technique or principle. Did you catch the points I made about the Aikijujutsu forum being the forum that isn't?

4. Toby "does" join in as well and we have had lenthy, detailed and fun conversations- but not about jujutsu. You won't hear him talk much about his arts much either. Pop on over to the sword forum for most of what we write about. You wont find much of anything here.
AND-- We take each other in stride when we disagree.

5. I don't know about Brently- I never trained with him. Nor do I accept a single persons opinion (though he is most certainly entitled to one) And Brently would not speak ill of those others so I dismiss everything else the guy had to say.

6. And Secrets?
What secrets?
Want ot hear the biggest secret of all?

There are over a couple of dozen people who practice DR here who won't talk about it, their schools, or their training either...
So not wanting to talk about it is keeping secrets?
Maybe he's right and we're all idiots.......or the there is the strong possibility that it is just me.

Silence and witholding information means lack thereofe Yes?
If you know something you must tell people on the net yes?
All the mall koratee dojos tell everyone everything and advertise.
the koryu and many gendai arts relatively silent.
hhhmmm..........Interesting logic
Be sure to tell the hundreds of others here who won't post details about their arts either. I am sure they will be equally thrilled at this guys logic as well. I could point you to several threads spanning years, where the participants refused to talk about technique or details of any kind as well.

BTW you just reinforced Nathans precautions about you being a troll. And thanks for letting us all know what a big and beefy boy you are.
Surprised you haven't offered us a picture or something you bigaikidoguy you.

Bye bye now

or simpletonDan

Hey Joseph......you internet site quoting librarian :kiss:
(I still don't know how you and Nathan do it)

Yes, I guess to know me is to love me.

Did you catch his comments about being a re-occuring troll
I guess you get an A+ for sniffing them out everytime.

Cady Goldfield
5th January 2002, 20:42
"Squelching conversations"?! Holy guacamole, Batman! It's all I can do just to keep myself from babbling on and on like an idjit!



Joseph Svinth
6th January 2002, 07:58
Cady --

Babbling like an idiot: I like that. :p

Dan --

Another possible description for me is suggested by Ned Pepper's address to Rooster Cogburn in "True Grit." You know the speech -- "Bold talk for a one-eyed fat man."

On an unrelated note, a minor correction: Brently *has* been known to speak ill of people. If you doubt this, just get him going on Bill Clinton sometime. :grin:


Meanwhile, as long as I'm quoting movies for a change, I think this line from "Hombre" is apt for aikijujutsu and other non-commercial martial arts:

Diane Cilento: "Then can you tell me why we all keep trottin' after you?"

Paul Newman: "Because I can cut it, lady."

Elmore Leonard always did have a way with words.

Cady Goldfield
6th January 2002, 13:16

That's "idjit." It's in the same category as MO-ron. ;)


Nathan Scott
7th January 2002, 21:22
What an interesting course of events. I thought the board would be safe over the weekend.

Well, the private email that Mr. Hunt posted is not complimentary, but is really of the most concern to Jason Brinn. If there is a Jason Brinn, and he would like his name removed from the public post, email me a request:

Moderator (nscott@shinkendo.com)

As Mr. Brinn has just found out, helping people on the internet is a great way to make new friends.

I wonder why Mr. Hunt didn't have any problem with posting the sections of the supposed email that were about the regular contributors, but decided to use discretion about the comments regarding Mr. Popkin and Mr. Goldberg? Hmmm.

Anyway, I'd be all for moving on with other discussions personally. For example:

On a slightly different note, what is the point of discussing something with someone when neither person has a point of reference?

This is a reasonable question. If you don't know who you are talking to (experience, ability and credentials), it makes discussions based on experience, teachings and opinion irrelevant. That is why, in light of the conservative nature of most of our regular contributors, discussions have ended up centering more on documented historical facts and issues (which can be referenced by those curious) and to some degree, those looking for qualified instructors.

Opinions are typically noted as such, and value on such opinions is given weight based on the context of the opinion and the quality of the person's previous contributions. Some people are quick to jump to wild conclusions without any supporting evidence, while others demonstrate that they will not say anything authoritatively without a reasonable amount of supporting evidence.

So, that is what we do here and why. Love it or leave it!

7th January 2002, 22:12

I chose to omit the info on Howard Popkin and Roy Goldberg because I spoke to Mr. Popkin and he seemed like a gentleman. He also told me that he used to train with Roy Goldberg, so I chose to omit that. Maybe that was an error.

Nonetheless, this is for you guys to argue about, I am through with this!

Take care,


7th January 2002, 22:30
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Maybe Mr. Hunt is a phony trolling for gossip and trouble. On the other hand, maybe he isn't. In any case, what is it about DR in general that is so secretive and mysterious, or so conservative that people don't want to talk about it?

There is a difference between discussing history and elements of an art open to the public, and not discussing other things. There are plenty of DR sources available to the public. I think with many arts, it is obvious there are certain things you don't discuss publicly: e.g., matters of specific technique, oral teachings, etc. I don't think Mr. Hunt was looking for such info. Even if he was, I don't believe any reasonable person would expect him to receive an answer.

While I think a healthy scepticism to Mr. Hunt's post was warranted, all the other sarcastic comments do not place E-Budo in a very favorable light. Just point out your suspicion and point him to the source of general information. End of the issue. In fact, all the indirect sarcasm and hostility just invites Mr. Hunt, if he is a troll, to act more trollish (and post private emails, etc.).

Sometimes it is better to be at least a little informative and polite in the face of uncertainty, rather than immediately dismissive.

Just a thought,

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Ron Tisdale
7th January 2002, 23:20
Mr. Hunt,

FYI, it is considered extremely bad ettiquite to post a private email on the net. If I were you, and just found this out, I would go back, and edit the post, removing all of the offending material.

A lot of people will not email you at all from this point forward, based soley on that fact alone. Having made a similar gaff once a long time ago, I can tell you personally that some have long memories, and will not forget that you did this. You are fortunate in that you can delete the "evidence of the crime", so to speak.

It still does not leave a good impression.

Good Luck,
Ron Tisdale

Nathan Scott
8th January 2002, 01:56
Personally, I was just trying to verify his intentions based on the logic of his posts. His questions were actually answered early on, once by Cady who recommended the CWDRM book (the best single resource available in this regard) as well as a subscription to Aikido Journal, and another by Joe Svinth, who was nice enough to do the Google search for Mr. Hunt. Brently Keen and perhaps Jason Brinn also emailed him privately (well, sort of).

All this despite the suspicious initial posting.

Why not just tell him anyway because the information is publicly available? It's only available if you know where to look and who to talk to, and as Cady said, those that really want to study will be willing to make more effort to find contacts in the art than to simply wait for others to feed them via the internet. NOT to say people shouldn't ask on the internet, rather that most conservative groups do not want tourists passing through their dojo/art, and then borrowing what they think they know from the art to teach in their own open seminars.

One of the few ways available for avoiding this is forcing prospective students to put forth the time, energy and sometimes expense to obtain the training information they say they desire. If they are not willing to search the web pages and buy any recommended books and videos, then they will probably not stay with or respect the art they are looking for. Hell, many koryu do not have books and videos to browse through or web pages.Or, if they do they have any books they are in Japanese and typically out of print, with expired contact information. That makes for good times.

Mr. Partamian, as I'm sure you realize, there is not one "Daito ryu". The various branches issue their own ranks, structure their own curriculum and in some cases open branch dojo. Some DR branches publish books and videos, while some avoid even participating in interviews. Some branches do not want their address publicly published. I have heard of at least one instructor that did not want his name and address published in the back of CWDRM. It was apparently published without his permission or knowledge.

Some branches are more open, and some are not. This is true of the various koryu dojo as well. It is not for us to judge whether they are reasonable or not. Those that are not willing to make the effort to find them and gain acceptance usually say "F'em if they don't want any students", and end up training somewhere that is more convenient and more open. This is probably the best thing for everyone.

From what I'm told, the senior exponents of Daito ryu do not want their art exploited and spread recklessly around the world to anyone with a modem. Most of them are not enjoying the popularity of their art (much like TSKSR) and are waiting for the fad to die so that they may focus more on training and less on politics and loose lips.

Hey, this makes for a small dojo, but, operating a small non-commercial dojo myself, this may be a considered a good thing.

Everyone needs to find the art and instructor that is right for them.

Like I said, lets move on. If Mr. Hunt is sincere and of good character, he will find what he's looking for eventually, and it will be equal to the patience and effort he puts forth (well, sometimes luck comes into play too).

"Serious student" is a relative term.

8th January 2002, 16:52
Mr. Scott,

I agree, 'nuff said about Mr. Hunt.

You mentioned, however, that senior exponents don't want DR exploited and spread by, or to, anyone with a modem (paraphrasing you here).

I fail to see how this is really possible. Nobody can learn DR, or any other art for that matter, without studying under an authentic teacher. Nobody can join a dojo without gaining permission from the teacher. And nobody with any brains will listen to someone with no credentials BS about how much he really knows about this or that art. Finally, no one can really steal technique from a book, a tape, and especially not from the internet. Not true technique, anyway.

I do agree with you, however, that we should respect schools that don't want publicity. No problem here. Certain information on teacher availability, school locations, phone numbers, students, etc. should all be privileged information.

On the other hand, I don't agree that we should refrain from discussing an art or school because that school doesn't want us discussing it. Where would that leave historical analysis, lineage authentication, or just plain thoughtful discussion? I am immediately suspicious of people who won't even discuss their teacher's credentials or their school's history because of "publicity concerns."

Finally, I am at a loss to understand how general publicity or interest in a particular art somehow threatens the art, or prevents serious study of the art by students? The integrity of an art is protected by the teacher and the students. It doesn't matter what is written on a web BB. The fact that more people are inquiring about an art that some would like to keep more secluded doesn't strike me as a serious threat.

For example, let's say I am interested in a few different koryu. Let's imagine I could organize an association of hundreds, or thousands, of like-minded people interested in a particular style. We look on the internet for schools, talk to friends and colleagues, research on our own, etc. Turns out, the only place to study is in a little village in Hokkaido, and they don't accept foreigners. How have I threatened that art? Or prevented those students in Hokkaido from seriously studying the art without distraction?

Now, I suppose if hundreds of us showed up banging on the dojo door, that would be a distraction (though no real threat, unless we are also carrying pitchforks and torches). But how likely is this scenario? Not very.

My point is, a lot of this "concern" is much ado about nothing. We can protect the integrity of an art without being too concerned about its internet publicity. As students, we should all work to prevent the spread of privileged knowledge and misinformation. But perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to worry about the spread of good information. Sometimes this is a better way to protect the integrity of an art than not.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 17:28

As has already been mentioned, exponents of particular schools won't participate in discussions about their schools and systems due to the conservatism of their ryu, and out of respect for the requested privacy of their senior-level teachers. Many of those teachers are pure artists in their craft, and are not interested in spreading the craft so much as they are in "perfecting" their own skills.

So, while there is nothing to prevent you and other forum participants from discussing those schools, teachers and arts, such discussions will be limited because none of the actual exponents of those schools and arts will be contributing.

Think of the guilds of medieval Europe. Trade secrets were jealously guarded, members had to remain loyal to their guild, and would-be apprentices formally applied to a guild, often needing a letter of introduction or patronage of a member. Guild members of course wanted to prosper in their respective trades, but there also was a pride and sense of ownership in the hard-won and hard-learned methods of their craft. It wasn't given away, nor given easily.

The arts we've been referring to here are very precious to its practitioners... not for monetary gain, of course; there is none (there isn't even rank in some of the schools) ... but for the depth and pure brilliance of their principles and content. Can you blame the seniors for being chary about casting their pearls?

As for your wondering about how publicizing an art can negatively affect it, consider what happens to an obscure restaurant that has been "discovered" and given a great review by a big-city newspaper reporter. Before you know it, this little, hidden-away place, treasured by its neighborhood patrons, has a line a quarter-mile long going out the door, as folks from out of town come to see how special it is. Some are sincerely in search of a true "dining" experience, while others are just looking for the latest fad in dining. Meanwhile, the locals can't get a table at their favorite place, traffic is hellacious, and the quality of the food and service go down because the restauranteur can't handle such a huge mob. Next thing you know, the johnny-come-latelies who caused the decline in quality start saying, "huh? this place ain't so special," and never come back. The locals reclaim their restaurant, and if the proprietor hasn't had a nervous breakdown and sold the place to a big conglomerate, maybe the place will go back to its previous level.

Come to think of it, there's a wonderful restaurant near our dojo, a real "gem in hiding," and I'll be damned if I ever tell a soul in Boston about it. Just as I don't broadcast to the world about the dojo. ;)

Internet forums are not places to share intimate knowledge or details. As Dan said, why would you give away valuable things to total strangers, whose integrity you know nothing about? Would you give away your home address, your wife's cellphone number or your kids' school location on the Internet? Even though this site attracts a lot of decent folks, I'd sure as heck be cautious about talking about anything that I value deeply. Even if it only pertains to some obscure art.

8th January 2002, 18:05

I don't think we have much of a disagreement. Your points are exactly the ones I covered in my post above.

Yes, such things you mentioned should be kept private. Still think it unlikely that publicity will kill the cook. Still don't understand how discussion will give away pearls of precious wisdom discovered through hard and serious training.

As for medieval guilds, I'm no medieval scholar, but guilds were generally not secretive about their existence, or their profession. Membership was also not a secret. Everyone knew who the merchant guilds were and who belonged to them. Membership was strictly regulated, and secrets of craftsmanship were guarded. Analagous things in the martial arts that I also approve of keeping secret.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 18:32
Good point about the guilds; you're right. But then, they benefited from publicity because they were first and foremost in their crafts to make a living.

To be honest, I don't fully understand "secret membership"; however, I do believe that much of it has to do with the preferences and concerns of individual senior exponents, and their student's desire to "do what's right." We can appreciate that some ryus' seniormost exponents have requested this of their students and, hence, of their students' students and so forth. IMO, it is not for students to question, if adhering to that protocol is one of the provisions of their receiving the privilege of training.

Again, it's up to the head of a given ryu to decide what is acceptable. Some koryu headmasters have in fact determined that it's okay, and beneficial to the ryu, to let their presence be known, today. Otake Sensei of the TSKSR is a prime example. Those who study in ryu headed by more conservative seniors must defer to the desires and concerns of those seniors, regardless of whether the juniors think those directives are valid. That's the way it is.


8th January 2002, 19:05

I agree. If the teacher has requested that the students not discuss their school or art, whatever the merits, the students should respect their teacher's request.

I also agree with you that some schools of DR seem to be far more close-mouthed. Again, I would not presume to argue with the decisions of a ryu's teacher.

If that is the case, however, then such practitioners should not discuss their art at all on a public forum such as E-Budo. If not drawing attention to yourself is the goal, then the best way to do that is to ignore public inquiries, NOT hinting that you know something but, "sorry, just can't tell you, it's very hush hush," or responding in a sarcastic or hostile manner (and I am not pointing any fingers here. Just stating this as a matter of logical policy).

Often times the very act of posting a response belies the putative goal of not drawing attention to yourself. As such, it can appear quite self-serving, even if undeservedly so.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

8th January 2002, 19:12
BTW, I wanted also to mention that it is nice to have an agreeable discussion about a topic that many people obviously have different opinions about.

It is a credit to E-Budo members, IMO, that this BB can be a vehicle for thoughtful debate, unlike many internet BBs.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 19:36

Again, it comes down to individual personalities. Some people are so passionate about their interests and studies, that they want to engage in discussions. They're just limited as to how far they can go.

For the most conservative systems, I'm sure that the seniors would prefer that everyone just shut up and shugyo. :) But, humans being what they are ... some people are so passionate about their studies, and intellectually outgoing, to boot, that they enjoy posting on forums. There is much that can be discussed that is mutually beneficial, without crossing any forbidden lines.

Unfortunately, such individuals sometimes find themselves caught between the proverbial "rock and hard place." The Internet poses a modernday dilemma. Before people could "surf the 'net," there was no easy way to get into global conversations with people harboring similar interests. Not just that, but have that information be accessible to anyone. It's too easy for sociable, chatty types to get sucked in. Once the impact of the 'net kicks in, though, you learn to temper yourself and your responses.

Some have gotten skewered by their sempai for postings that crossed the line. Some learn, some end up out on their butts.

IMO, it's possible to enjoy lively discussions and arguements without giving away anything your school holds as confidential. It just takes practice to walk the fine line while not coming across looking like a taunting, arrogant snot. Easier said than done. :)


Nathan Scott
8th January 2002, 20:56
Hello Mr. Partamian,

I hear what your saying, and for most people this philosophy does not make sense. I've been involved rather deeply in the day to day operation of several budo federations, and as such have developed a different perspective. Most emails go through me, and when we have political issues, or questionable instructors approaching us, I'm usually involved in the discussions and response process.

The main group I'm involved in is quite public. We have books, videos, magazine articles and web sites. People know who we are, so I see this side allot. Basically, there is a certain cross section of martial artists that study for financial gain and/or ego reasons. Some of these people wil be politely dissuaded, but some of them will manage to filter in. If they manage to gain some seniority in rank before their true colors show, it can be difficult to act upon politically. The more senior you are, the more the Federation/honbu tends to show tollerance, which ends up damaging the arts reputation in the end. Same goes for firing people of higher rank.

However, personallities such as these are almost always not willing to work hard to find and gain admittance into the art, and even less willing to train seriously and long to earn their seniority the hard way.

That is where being conservative is a benefit. Those involved in administration spend allot of our uncompensated personal time filtering through interested inquiries and requests, and every shady instructor in the world can find out about us and get our contact information in a matter of seconds. By being publicly open, we have some bozo's who teach themselves by video, and then claim to be instructors - teaching without formal instruction, rank or permission from us. We get others who like our choice in style name, and decide to bastardize is or simply steal it (and/or it's kanji) for themselves, causing more confusion to those new to the art. This should sound familiar to the Daito ryu world.

But wait - there's more!

We get bozo's stealing ANYTHING worthwhile they can find out about our system (which is often "omote", and means they do not understand what we're doing anyway) and mixing it into their own system. I can't think of one of these people that openly credits our founder for what they have "borrowed". Of course, the borrowed elements have always been in their system, right? This should also sound familiar. Oh yeah, we also get some people who visit and ask to take a picture with our founder. You can guess where this photo ends up, and what kind of story goes with it, right?

Anyway, I could go on and on. It's not to say that being open publicly is ALL bad. Of course we attract good quality people as well, and expansion and interest in the art grows much quicker. But as a result, SOME of us spend a great deal of our own time doing damage control and educating interested parties as to whether an instructor is licensed under us and whether information "they heard" from their buddy or over the net is correct or not. If this is not done effectively, then the general public begins to equate the frauds and misinformation as true, and our reputation and integrity is sacrificed regardless of what we do at our honbu.

O.K., some of this is going to happen with a conservative group too. But those trying to exploit conservative groups are going to have a pretty tough time since they do not know the operating system, terminology, instructors, or any other "inside" information. Those few people can be flushed out very quickly and proven as such by those in the art. Knowing the history is also an element of fraudulent schools, but the history by itself is not enough, and history is an academic subject, rather than a martial study.

Furthermore, some instructors operate out of their own home, or use their residence as their contact information. They do not want to be called at home at 4am in the morning their time to be pressured by people they do not know, and who typically have poor etiquette. They don't want to spend their time and energy filtering and in many cases politely discouraging everyone and their dog who wants to contact them. They don't want to be "famous" from the publicity given to them by others, or their own interviews and statements they would have to make to constantly set the record straight from all the frauds and misinformation. All they want are sincere, LOYAL, serious students.

These serious students are the kinds of people that ask (privately) around in the martial arts circles for contacts, educate themselves as much as possible about the art and their policies, and learn the proper etiquette necessary to correctly approach an instructor once they have found a line to one. This make take a few years, or it may take a few days, but, it takes as long as it takes. It used to be that prospective students were required to submit a letter of recommendation from someone the instructor knew or who was known to them. This is largely not necessary anymore, which makes approaching many conservative styles much easier these days.

Kondo sensei has assumed the position as headmaster of the mainline right now, so does not really have the luxery of privacy - though of course making publications are by his choice. Other groups do not need to be in the limelight, so some of them choose to remain ellusive, if you will. So be it.

In any event, discussing techniques and principles over the internet does not make any sense for any art - unless we are talking about Judo, Kendo or another such global and standardized art.

If the public loses all interest in Daito ryu, and membership in the dojo drops enough, the instructors will be more comfortable opening up a bit. I think the conservativeness publicly is largely in response to the unwanted publicity.

We have managed to spend several years uncovering various historical elements, and discussing their meaning. General discussions of aiki have been very interesting as well.

But for those that are really curious about what people in Daito ryu are doing should just JOIN a dojo and train formally! This is really by far the best way to learn about it, not over the internet.

Believe me, there is still lots to talk about here without exploiting any of the arts!

8th January 2002, 21:39
Mr. Scott,

You raise some good points on the dangers of too much publicity. While I tend to think such concerns are a little overblown, and handled without too much difficulty, I am not in fundamental disagreement with your position.

Kondo Sensei also walks a fine line that his students are very aware of. How to disseminate the art to a small group of dedicated students without sacrificing the integrity of the art. The study group I am a part of works as a nice filtering sieve. As point in fact, I was a member of the study group for over two years before I travelled to Japan to study with Kondo Sensei at the Shimbukan. As for general publicity, the main thing Kondo Sensei is concerned about is misinformation, especially given the recent political events that regulars to this forum I'm sure are all aware of.

In the end, perhaps we are just "center-right" and "center-left" of the martial line of openness, if you get my drift.

You said,
"IMO, it's possible to enjoy lively discussions and arguements without giving away anything your school holds as confidential. It just takes practice to walk the fine line while not coming across looking like a taunting, arrogant snot. Easier said than done."

Right on, brother. :)

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 21:43
Arman writes
"Right on, brother!"

I'm a girl, pal. :smash:


8th January 2002, 22:12
Ah, I can finally repost. Must have been a glitch.


Please excuse me! Allow me to rephrase?

Right on, Sister.:)

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 22:22
Apology accepted.

You're not alone. Dan thought I was a guy too when we first "met" on the jujutsu mail list, 5 years or so ago. Had to set him straight too. I just wished he'd stopped calling me "Sir" even after we met in person...:eek:



Dan Harden
9th January 2002, 03:45

You and I may disagree on the conservative nature of some schools but I offer you this; Like it or not people tend to identify each other according to classification and familiararity. If I know your teacher I know you, If I know your associates or associations..I know you..etc etc. Of course (to use your language from the other religion thread) "its all illusury."
Nothing could be further from the truth
Be that as it may- and to qoute Jim Henson "Peoples is peoples" and they will do what they do.

You mentioned in your reply to Nathan that although you agreed you think that much of the caution is overblown and can be handled easily. On what experience do you base that?
Nathan has told you the difficulties he has had. And haspointed out the potential difficulties that are presented to others We have tried to tell you of various times when the proverbial flood gates were opened, you get inundated with nonsense calls and visits?
Ever been Dojo stormed? How about for two years?
How about when you didn't ask for the publicity?
It seems antithetical to American marketing that many cannot wait till the furrer over Daito ryu goes the way of Bruce Lees JKD.. or the kids who "Want to do the Kung fu."

It has not escaped my attention that you have affixed an identifyer to your signature While few of us have:

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Obviously you wish those reading to know you have affiliations with this start up group.
What do you wish it to mean?
What does it say to us that have been in it for years, under different styles?
Does it mean anything to me?
Does the identity you have chosen to reveal have any reference or bearing on our estimations of your thoughts and opinions? Or do they stand on their own?
If you commit fuax paus and make an ass of yourself who does it reflect on?
If you reveal things accidentally that you shouldn't who does it harm?
Are you capable or representing that group in everyway?
if not, why identify?
Aren't you a bit uncomfortable being perceived as representing them?

Doesn't that push a fear, or humility button in you?

I know very senior students in various arts who would not have the "perceived" audacity to identify like that. They even refer to their schools in the third person. Why?
They do not see themselves (with only twenty or so years in) as wanting to be speaking for or even being mistakenly taken as a representative of, their schools.
Thats just a personal opinion of course

On another note
Bigaikidoguy went out of his way to tell us his size; twice
What does that say about him?

All of us, in a willingness to share, be human, and interact, will blow it now and then. We are just poeple. E-budo has done a servce to the budo community. Some of us when we are at our best contribute to that cause. But again, we are of flesh and bone. So on our bad days we fail. Just like in the dojo. Everyone who is tryng to truly share their experiences here will miss now and again.

When you see us choosing to remain "non affialiated" think of it as humility instead of arrogance. Why share the frailty of the flesh?

I echo Nathan cautions as well. There are men who do not want the publicity. Jump on over to the Aikido Journal site under Aikido General; Sagawa saga... to catch more on people not understanding why something should be kept hidden.
As Nathan implied there have been people booted from organizations for revealing too much. Add to that people having commmon respect for the wishes of those who choose to remain as behind the scene as possible.

You wondered why some folks don't just vanish then? Why talk at all?
I can see your point but why do they have to do anything to fit someone elses expectations. They can do what they want. You or I don't have to like it. It just .....is

Is it ok to discuss somethings?
yes it is
Is it ok to share information, thoughts and opinions on previous research?
Yes it is
Is it ok to decide all on your own when to stop and not discuss technique, style, affiliation, or anything else for that matter and just remain generic?
Yes it is

As for several of us "hesitant posters" here
We gab all the time in private email to each other.
We just won't do it here, in public.


9th January 2002, 18:37

I guess I'll just start by answering your questions one-by-one.

-"You mentioned in your reply to Nathan that although you agreed you think that much of the caution is overblown and can be handled easily. On what experience do you base that?"

Personal experience. I don't give out phone numbers, addresses, teacher locations, etc., etc., without prior permission. Furthermore, I've never had someone constantly bug me after I have said "Thanks, but no thanks." But of course, this leads me to your next question.

-"Ever been Dojo stormed?"

No. I don't think I even know what "dojo stormed" means. Sounds scary.

-"How about for two years?"

See answer above.

-"It has not escaped my attention that you have affixed an identifyer to your signature While few of us have:

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Obviously you wish those reading to know you have affiliations with this start up group.
What do you wish it to mean?"

I assumed the answer to this question would be obvious. I place this marker under my signature so when people read my posts on a martial arts BB, they have at least some idea of what I study and what my background and interests are. I use it for all of my E-Budo posts, of course, but I think it is especially important for aikijujutsu posts. Why? So when I am discussing an aikijujutsu topic, people don't have to wonder, "Has this guy ever practiced the art? What's his background," etc. The marker at least gives them some indication I have at least a little experience with what I am talking about.

-"What does it say to us that [sic] have been in it for years, under different styles?"

I don't think I'm qualified to speak for what it means to you [us?].

-"Does it mean anything to me?"

See answer above.

-"Does the identity you have chosen to reveal have any reference or bearing on our estimations of your thoughts and opinions? Or do they stand on their own?"

Compound question here. First part: See answer above. Second part: How else would they stand?

-"If you commit fuax paus and make an ass of yourself who does it reflect on?"

All those I am publicly associated with (as well as privately, in truth).

-"If you reveal things accidentally that you shouldn't who does it harm?"

All those who are associated with the group I belong to.

-"Are you capable or [sic] representing that group in everyway?"

No, not in everyway.

-"if not, why identify?"

See multiple answers above.

-"Aren't you a bit uncomfortable being perceived as representing them?"

I don't represent myself in any manner beyond that which I have been given permission to do. My identification marker is not an issue or problem. Trust me (or don't, it doesn't really matter).

-"Doesn't that push a fear, or humility button in you?"

Hmmm. Well, if you must know my personal emotional response to being allowed to publicly indicate what I study: fear, no. Humility, always.

-"I know very senior students in various arts who would not have the "perceived" audacity to identify like that."

Not really a question, but inflammatory, nonetheless. Let's see, "audacity": meaning bold or arrogant. I didn't realize I was being bold or arrogant by indicating what I study and with what group. In fact, I don't think I am being audacious. So, I deny the implication of this statement. (Hopefully, you won't find me audacious for denying that I am audacious).

-"They do not see themselves (with only twenty or so years in) as wanting to be speaking for or even being mistakenly taken as a representative of, their schools.
Thats just a personal opinion of course"

Who else's opinion would it be?

-"When you see us choosing to remain "non affialiated" think of it as humility instead of arrogance. Why share the frailty of the flesh?"

I never said you, Dan, were arrogant. As for the frailty of the flesh, I'll leave that one alone.

-"You wondered why some folks don't just vanish then? Why talk at all?
I can see your point but why do they have to do anything to fit someone elses expectations. They can do what they want. You or I don't have to like it. It just .....is"

I never said don't talk at all. I said people who want their arts to remain secluded are better served by refusing to reply to inquisitive posts regarding their respective arts. I don't see the problem here.

-"As for several of us "hesitant posters" here
We gab all the time in private email to each other.
We just won't do it here, in public."

Sorry to disagree, Dan, but you do "do it" here in public. Perhaps not to the extent, or to the fullest, that you may do in private. Nevertheless, in my short time here at E-Budo, you have never come across to me as a "hesitant poster."

Finally, I have not said anything that would misrepresent my art, or any others. I have not said anything that would reveal any "secrets" of my art, or any others. In fact, I fail again to see what your problem really is? (and please, you don't have to answer this question)

Sincerely yours,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

Nathan Scott
11th January 2002, 21:56
Well well well.

Jason Brinn is apparently a real person, and has emailed me in objection of the email Mr. Hunt posted publicly here.

Mr. Brinn claims that he did not even write it, and that he suspects that the person posting as "Michael Hunt" is someone he knows trying to publicly slander him for political reasons.

Yamantaka actually found Mr. Brinn on the Aikido Journal board, which I noticed yesterday (pretty interesting thread anyway):

Oshikiuchi/ Daito-ryu (http://www.aikidojournal.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000029)

As such, I am removing the email that Mr. Hunt posted publicly for two reasons:

1) If Mr. Brinn didn't write it, then the email Mr. Hunt posted is fictional and does not need to be on this forum.

2) Even if Mr. Brinn did write it, he obviously didn't intend for the email to be submitted to the public eye. If you look up "public" in the dictionary, I think you'll agree that an email between two parties cannot be considered as such unless it is stated in the email.

In either event, the "email quote" does not belong on this forum. I'd really prefer that petty political crap not be slung around on this forum. Please go elsewhere to sling mud.

BTW, it doesn't sound like Mr. Popkin knows anyone named Michael Hunt either.


PS. Dojo storming ("dojo arashi") is an old custom of rival martial artists/groups going to another dojo to challenge them. These days, this is typically done by knuckleheads and NHB/UFC fighters.

Dan Harden
11th January 2002, 22:31
Well Nathan

After all is said and done, we read him right, and right from the starting gate I may add. Interesting, what is that the fourth or fifth time that we have spotted a come-on from a single question?
And everyone else got sucked right in......oh well

Nathan writes to clarify my point:

PS. Dojo storming ("dojo arashi") is an old custom of rival martial artists/groups going to another dojo to challenge them. These days, this is typically done by knuckleheads and NHB/UFC fighters.

Thanks Nathan
This happened to some other people I know who had a name out there and were doing jujutsu before the NHB fad hit. I met some interesting characters through it though.

My response to the poster was preplanned and discussed behind the scenes. And no I'm not going to say why.

As for the other comments between you and I;
I am going to let it lay as is. I see your points and while we agree on some- we disagree on others. But I do so with respect for the mindest you have portrayed in your prior posts and contributions. You don't have to respond in kind with a forced politeness- its cool bud.
We come from different places and experiences, perhaps even different generations. I'll try to contribute even less on this forum and stick to the sword forum, where I mostly post anyway.
Since I still won't contribute anything having to do with technical attributes of the art anyway- its no loss. Of course Nathan won't either, Kit doesn't study it and neither will the dozen or so guys I know who do and read here but won't post anything-never did. So the conversations will remain pretty limited. Five years ago (or so) when E-Budo started up I dubbed the AJJ forum the forum that ain't or wouldn't be. For the simple fact that no one would talk about it. And there you go.
There is plenty of great discussion going on behind the scenes anyway.
Good luck in your studies of such a fine art.



12th January 2002, 00:17

Thanks for your post. I harbor no ill-will towards you, and I certainly hope that we can engage in thoughtful discussions in the future.

As for the AJJ forum, as you have guessed, I suppose I will be one of the few students of the art who is in fact interested in contributing to the forum. I actually hope that you are wrong about who will and won't contribute, or it could be a long and lonely ride.:)

As for your pre-arranged response to "Mr. Hunt," I suppose in light of Nathan's revelations, I can see why you many times post in a rather, to put it politely, caustic manner ;) . My only concern is that such responses will pre-emptively scare away good contributions to the forum. Of course, I suppose that wouldn't bother you too much, in light of your position on the existence of the AJJ forum.

I hope, however, that over time you will come to see that you have nothing to fear from a more open AJJ forum. I have far too much respect for my teachers and the art to ever say something that would harm them or it. BTW, I also doubt I will ever say much in detail about DR technique, simply because you just can't really say anything really worthwhile without doing it. For a very long time, I might add.

Who knows? Perhaps after awhile, even you will be moved toward a more open discussion of what we both agree is a wonderful art (don't worry, I won't be holding my breath ;) ).

Good luck to you as well,
Cheers :toast:
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group

28th January 2004, 17:00
hi all,
i was just wondering,are thier any akijujutsu dojo's in nyc(manhattan or brooklyn)?
any iformation would be gratefully accepted.

thank you,
kevin kash

John J. Montes
29th January 2004, 03:14
Look of Ibarra (think he's in the Bronx though) and San Yama Bushi for starters...

Nathan Scott
3rd February 2004, 02:11
Mr. Kash,

In case you're looking for your thread, it has been merged with this one.


Ryan L
29th June 2005, 19:16
Please let me know if you know of any good instructors in the Manhattan, New York area.

Carlos Estrella
17th July 2005, 01:38
Private message me.

2nd August 2005, 01:54
A division of the Takumakai has apparentally opened in New York. I'd be willing travel to get something legit.


I however know nothing of this particular training group.

Good luck

22nd April 2010, 00:39
Hello all,

I am in the westchester NY area. I am actually looking for any traditional aikijutsu or jujitsu schools either in my area or the bronx. I found one place by accident but i am having trouble verifying the teacher or lineage.

His name is sensei jerold rivera and he say's he teaches aikijutsu of the katsugo ryu school that was taught to him by grandmaster Joseph Torres. If anyone can verify either person or school of combat it would be most helpful.

Also, If anyone know's of any traditional schools within the area I am in. It would help very much as well.

Bob Blackburn
22nd April 2010, 02:31
I would contact Sensei Howard Popkin. http://www.popkinbrognaselfdefense.com/Roppokai/tabid/56/Default.aspx

The katsugo ryu does not have good feedback. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58876&page=7

Nathan Scott
26th April 2010, 21:45
Mr. Ramos,

I've merged your thread with this one in the Dojo Finder sub-forum.