View Full Version : Takagi ryu / Hontai Yoshin ryu / Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu

George Kohler
21st December 2000, 01:56
This is to Todd Schweinhart and John Sims

Hello Todd and John,

why didn't you'll tell us about the new website?

BTW, for everyone who wants to know it is at http://www.hyrusa.com/

George Kohler
21st December 2000, 02:08
Forgot to mention that the website looks great

Neil Hawkins
21st December 2000, 05:40
Agree totally, very nice site, well done lads.


Brian G Barnes
23rd December 2000, 23:38
To whom it may concern: We are really glad that you like the new HYR website. Please return regularly, as we will be making additions and updates as soon as possible after the new year. Also, if anyone would like to contribute information about issues and history related to Hontai Yoshin-ryu, please send the information along to any of us. My wife designed the site, and I administer it, so any corrections or helpful hints should go to me. Thanks, and enjoy--Brian Barnes, logician@hyrusa.com

Todd Schweinhart
24th December 2000, 07:53
Uh, sorry George, I wasn't sure when Brian Barnes was going to place it on the web. He (and his better half) has done a great job and the page looks wonderful. I hope to contribute something in the near future. Before I send it in I will forward George a copy so that he will be the first "in the know" :^). With as much knowledge as you have it may be better for you to present something!
Anyway the page looks great and I am sure that there will be more exciting information soon.
Happy Holidays to all!
Todd Schweinhart

Rolling Elbow
24th December 2000, 14:46
The frames on the left and right sides of the page are akward depending on your size of screen..I had a hard time reading the text. The "cover" page is nicely done though.

On a side note: I wondered how Koryu arts fair in the striking ranges alone..like all jujutsu I know that the hold escapes and pins-throws-locks are there, but I wondered how they compared in pure striking tactics and movement.Granted i did not take a koryu jujutsu/ryu art, but I was very disappointed over the striking skills taught in jujutsu when i studied..it was the guys with the karate backgrounds and jujutsu techniques that were the most effective. Jujutsu I found was very static in that grabs and attacks did not teach flow, adaptability, and principles. I have recently read some traditional jujutsu books and they impressed me much more. Why do you think these skills have been lost in modern jujutsu systems?


[Edited by Rolling Elbow on 12-24-2000 at 09:48 AM]

George Kohler
24th December 2000, 21:15
Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
Uh, sorry George, I wasn't sure when Brian Barnes was going to place it on the web. He (and his better half) has done a great job and the page looks wonderful. I hope to contribute something in the near future. Before I send it in I will forward George a copy so that he will be the first "in the know" :^). With as much knowledge as you have it may be better for you to present something!
Anyway the page looks great and I am sure that there will be more exciting information soon.
Happy Holidays to all!
Todd Schweinhart

Hi Todd,
Sorry, didn't know that you hadn't seen it yet. BTW, you don't have to forward me anything before you send it to Mr. Barns. I prefer finding it on the website :) Thank you for the compliment, but I'm not that knowledgable as you or John Sims. I can't wait to see some of your contributions, and I'm not being sarcastic either. BTW, have you translated those pages that I sent you :)

Happy holidays to you, Todd.

Neil Hawkins
26th December 2000, 09:25

This probably deserves a thread of it's own, as it is getting away from the subject here, I'll start one for you.


Eric Baluja
22nd January 2002, 16:51

I have a little experience in both Kakuno-den Hontai Yoshin (Takagi) ryu and the Ishiya- /Mizuta-den Takagi Yoshin ryu lineage as taught in the Bujinkan/Jinenkan organizations.

My question is why are they, at least in obvious form, so vividly different? I can't identify a single formal kata that these lines share! How did that happen?

I have read that Minaki Sensei (Kakuno-den) "polished the techniques according to his own way of thinking, refining them for a more modern approach to budo" (from the HYR history written by John Sims on the HYR USA site). If this is the reason for the huge variation, it's clear that he polished the b'Jesus out of them!

Any thoughts, information or leads are appreciated. Thanks!

22nd January 2002, 18:24
Hi Eric,

I'm not sure if the instance in Hontai Yoshin ryu is the same but it sounds like a similar situation exists in Shindo Yoshin ryu. Mainline SYR and the Takamura ryuha differ significantly (John Sims is an old student of Takamura ha SYR btw...) and the rationale for change sounds very similar.

Ohbata Shigeta, founder of what is now the Takamura ha SYR claimed that prior to 1900, significant weapon applications were included the Shindo Yoshin ryu training syllabus. With the popularity of Judo, mainline SYR slowly discarded much of the ( old-fashioned ) weapon applications in preference to a very Judo like, taijutsu heavy curriculum. Ohbata Shigeta ( SYR, Menkyo Kaiden) claimed his ryuha maintained most of old weapon syllabus and in fact added to it with influences from Shinkage ryu, Jikishinkage ryu and several others. In the 1960's, Shigeta's grandson, Takamura Yukiyoshi re-organized the curriculum de-emphasizing the old kata in favor of a less structured and more dynamic practise based curriculum. If one now compares mainline SYR with the Takamura Ryuha they on the surface appear significantly different. Deeper investigation however will show that some of the kata are still preformed exactly the same and all the core concepts remain intact. Takamura Sensei's reasoning for the changes he made are linked to his belief that concepts and principles drive an arts identity instead of kata. As the environmental and societal realities changed in which the art existed, the techniques had to change as well to remain practical. The time honored kata are now treated as the repository of the core concepts of the art, but it's technical application ocassionally looks very un-koryu. For this reason Takamura Sensei changed the "shin" character in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu from one that mean't "divine" to one that means "new". This was his way of signifying the his changes and avoiding confusion between the Takamura ryuha and mainline Shindo Yoshin ryu.

We are frequently asked if we are koryu jujutsu. Mainline SYR as founded by Katsunosuke Matsuoka barely qualifies as a koryu if at all in my opinion since it was founded around 1867-8. We prefer to say the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu is a gendai tradition whose origins have traceable roots to various koryu thru mainline Shindo Yoshin ryu and it's founder Katsunosuke Matsuoka.

I'm not an authority on Hontai Yoshin ryu by any means but the dissimilarity between the two traditions is not that surprising to me.

Toby Threadgill

Todd Schweinhart
22nd January 2002, 20:51
Hello Eric,
Have you started training in Hontai Yoshin Ryu? If so who have you found to train with?
As for the HYR question, it is very similar to what Mr. Threadgill stated in regards to Shindo Yoshin Ryu. Hontai Yoshin Ryu is actually a seperate division and not actually Takagi Ryu per se. Minaki sensei kind of divided up the three schools (HYR, Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu). Although after you have studied the kata for a while you will see some "borrowed" kata in the Omote waza. The koshiki no kata are actually the Takagi Ryu kata but are also done a little differently.
I think if you study any branch other than the xkan you will see a significant difference in teaching style and presentation of the historical kata. This also holds true for the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu. One thing that seems to hold true for most of the branches are the yurushi waza.
Hope this helps.

Todd Schweinhart
Louisville Kentucky

Eric Baluja
23rd January 2002, 18:31

Thank you, sir. I did suspect that this might be the case regarding Ishiya-den HYR and TYR.


I started training with Dr. Fabian a few months ago. However, regrettably, I have yet to see him this year. :cry: I'm trying to secure indoor training space for us near his home ('cos the ground is gettin' a lil' hard and the wind is penetratin', don'cha know!).


Gyokko ryu and HYR? You're blowing my mind, man! Where is "Koku" to be found? That's wild!

Thanks for the help. I was only asking because it seemed so strange to me that such differences (even if just "omote" differences) could crop up within only two-or-so generations of practice.

Please, feel free to run with this some more.

Eric Baluja

Paul Steadman
25th January 2002, 06:25
Hi Daniel,

How was your trip to Oz? I was hoping to catch up with and give you a Chrissy present. I'll mail to Japan if your address is still the same!

You posted: ".....shomen-tsuki, uchikomi, gedan and shuto." I take it that gedan refers to gedan-tsuki:smilejapa

As usual you post execellent info:smokin:

By the way, have you heard of a 'Tenshin Ryu,' (not Tenshin Koryu) based in Sydney, NSW?


Paul Steadman

Paul Steadman
28th January 2002, 12:00
Hi Daniel,

The e-mail in my profile is up to date. Look forward to hearing from you soon. I spent the beginning of the holiday season with Phil-Sensei, in outback NSW...very hot!

I asked about Tenshin-ryu, due to an enquiry from a student of same, looking to train with us.

On the subject of Hontai Yoshin Ryu you mentioned: "...but the refined HYR structures training into 10 toriguchi (similar training methods can be seen in Shoshowa-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu)..." the concept is ingenious, I agree. The modern eclectic jujutsu (aka: ju-jitsu) one sees in Oz usually consists of a 'one (designated) attack -- one (designated) defence,' type of waza training. A given specific defence against a; wrist-grab (including frontal, rear & side attacks), , reverse wrist-grab, opposite wrist-grab, two handed single wrist-grab, double wrist grab, sleeve-grabs, elbow-grabs, shoulder-grabs, collar-grabs, hair-grabs etc etc ad-nauseum (I haven't even got to atemi-waza yet). Most Ozzie jujitsuans usually mention the lack of scope, variety and imagination in Japanese jujutsu kata, but I see a certain refined and methodical format in Japanese jujutsu kata.


Paul Steadman

Paul Steadman
29th January 2002, 10:09
Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the information. I'll mail the package to you on the 6th of May (when we get paid:toast: ) via registered post. Look forward to receiving your e-mail update.

Also in regards to the standard number & order of attacking techniques in some Japanese jujutsu systems eg: kata-ginu, ryo-ginu, sode-tsuki, uchi-komi, ori-dori, eri-dori & oogarami etc, are you aware of any old Japanese jujutsu systems that apply all of their signature nage waza & gyaku-waza in a kata etc against a single given specific attacking technique eg: kote-dori first, then all waza against eri-dori, then all waza against atemi etc?

I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain :confused:. Imagine say Nage no Kata (Kodokan or HYR) but having to perform all the techniques within the kata first off against a wrist grab, until progressing onto performing all throwing techniques against a collar grab, then moving on to all techniques against an overhead strike. Anyway now that I've bored you and everyone, do you know of any Japanese systems that train in this manner and does it have a specific term?


Paul Steadman

Paul Steadman
30th January 2002, 06:13
G'day Mate,

Thanks for the reply.


Paul Steadman

30th January 2002, 15:43
Hi All

Daniel you mentioned in your earlier post that Koku from Gyokko Ryu is found in the HYR.

When you talk about Koku are you refering to a Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu kata or one that is listed as a Jujutsu kata.

I know the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu kata called Koku and am very familiar with the Koku of Gyokko Ryu. I would be most interested if you are talking about a Jujutsu kata.

I dont have a mokuroku for HYR Jujutsu kata so i cant refer to it to compare.

thanks in advance

2nd February 2002, 06:16
Hi Daniel

thank you, its what i assumed just i wasnt sure, so glad you could you could help

19th February 2002, 20:09
:D Hi Daniel,

I'm getting rather confused, but hopefully you will be able to answer my question.

Are the Tagaki Yoshin Ryu Kata (Koshiki Kata) (ie Kasumi Dori, Do Gaeshi, etc etc) as practiced in Bujinkan/Jinenkan/Genbukan reflected in the curriculum of Hontai Yoshin Ryu?

You have demonstrated that sets of 'newly formed' kata were produced, but in what capacity if any are the above kata practiced in Bujinkan/Jinenkan/Genbukan practiced within Hontai Yoshin Ryu?

George Ricard

11th October 2002, 11:45
Hi there

Could me anybody please tell if there is a relation/ connection between the Yoshin Ryu ( founded by Akiyama) and the Takagi-Ryu
( traced back to Takagi oriemon Shigetoshi)
thank you

11th October 2002, 13:31
Hi there.
As far as I know there is no connection between them other than the name. The Takagi Ryu is slightly older than the better known Yoshin Ryu but only slightly...There are no linked lineages between the two schools (At least not in the line passed down through Takamatsu Sensei that I guess that you refer to..).
A good read on both schools can be found in Serge Mol's book on Koryu Jujutsu although there is no real emphasis on the Bujinkan/Genbukan lines and the focus stays on the authors own teachers lines...Worth looking at though..And it will clear the relations between these Ryuha up for you more precisely than I can.

11th October 2002, 15:53
Actually I have the book. Just wanted to confirm it, because the book itself has a quite subjective prespective....

Charles Choi
14th October 2002, 22:37
As far as I know there is no connection between them other than the name

Agree with you there Ben!

Eric Baluja
24th May 2005, 20:35
I was just browsing buyubooks.com and found a brand new Nihon Kobudo DVD titled "Takagi Ryu Kukishin Ryu jujutsu/bojutsu." It's listed as an enbu by Tsutsui Yoshinao. I've never heard of this teacher and was just curious if anyone has any info on him.


George Kohler
24th May 2005, 20:53
There was a Tsutsui that learned Takagi-ryu and Kukishin-ryu from Kakuno. Maybe he is related to the same person?

Steve Delaney
25th May 2005, 09:32

This is the line that does the rensa sankakubo (three section staff) isn't it?

8th August 2006, 04:20
Dear All

Does any one know anything about Tsutsui Tomotaro and the Takagi ryu lineage?



8th August 2006, 07:57
Does any one know anything about Tsutsui Tomotaro and the Takagi ryu lineage?

He was the successor of Takagi-ry jjutsu & Kukishin-ry bjutsu (aka Hontai Yshin Takagi-ry jjutsu) from Kakuno Happeita via Ishitani (Ishiya) Takeo. He was married to Kakuno's daughter. Its considered the "mainline" and all other Takagi lines are legitimate branches as well. Within the last 150 years or so you now have about 7 lines of Takagi arts.

hope this helps!

Dean Whittle
8th August 2006, 10:56
Does anyone know what happened to Daniel's posts in this thread, they don't seem to be 'viewable'?

With respect

George Kohler
8th August 2006, 22:02
Does anyone know what happened to Daniel's posts in this thread, they don't seem to be 'viewable'?

With respect

They are deleted.

9th August 2006, 03:54
Hi Guys

I think this question has already been asked but i'm not sure about the answer. Im pretty sure that I have seen the kata kasumi dori in Hon Tai yoshin Ryu. It is more or less the same kata as the one practised in the X kans. This is confusing me as it was said earlier in this thread that there was no connection between Takagi Yoshin Ryu as practised by the Xkans and HonTai Yo Shin Ryu. Any ideas?



9th August 2006, 06:37
If you're referring to what I posted earlier please read it again. There is a link between the lines of Hontai Yoshin Ryu and those practised by the various x-kan groups. There is no link between the various Hontai Yoshin Ryu lines and the other Yoshin Ryu. That school was founded by someone else entirely.
The other lines all comprise variations on the name Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu and since they all came from the same source are bound to have some similarities in them.

9th August 2006, 12:42
Kasumi dori can be found in Hontai Yoshin ryu. It is in the Omote no kata, which as I understand is directly rooted in shoden no kata of Takagi ryu.

George Kohler
9th August 2006, 16:43
It should be also noted that even though Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu (see thread with this name) is its own school, they are connected to Takagi-ryu. It also has the kata Kasumi Dori that looks like the other Takagi-ryu branches.

10th August 2006, 05:15
Hi all,
Just want a few opinions about what you all feel about this question.
If HYR was refined (from what I've seen, its quite a bit) then would you consider it a true koryu (no references to the budokans defenition please) in the sense that the techniques have been modified that much and some revamped to a point that it is more like a new style based on the older one.
The reason I ask this is that these changes seemed to take place after the Edo period so what people are practicing now are not like what they where doing back in the older days.
I have only seen a couple of HYR classes so my appologies if I am incorrect with anything I've stated, I am only able to compare that with my Bujinkan TYR experience.
Andrew Timms

10th August 2006, 05:59
What differences or changes are you refering to? More importantly, why do you assume that the waza have been changed from those done in the past? What references can you cite for that change?
I'm not in the ryuha so can't comment, but your question seems to assume common knowledge of changes made in the school and I was wondering what these were..
Give us a base to help your question if you could?

10th August 2006, 08:18
Thanks Ben,
Quote from the history section of the Hontai Yoshin ryu site.
The 16th master Kakuno Happeita had been planning to organize the various techniques and skills that had been developed over the years. Minaki succeeded in actualizing the will of Kakuno. He selected the most important and crucial skills of Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu and dedicated his time to organize these waza.
Also Erics post on the first page states his experience of the two schools as being very diffrent, I'm sure he has more experience than me on the matter. The other thing was that whilst talking to a teacher of HYR he said that there are only 30 kata which is alot less than TYR/HTYR.
Those which I have been through are very diffrent from the kata of the Bujinkan line of TYR but they have the same lineage until the last few sokes.
I think that a belgium Genbukan site on their lineage part for HTYR mentions that HYR has the same lineage but uses completley diffrent techniques.
Therefore is (as far as I've read) there has been no major changes to the kata in the lines which Hatsumi and Tanemura have (if I'm wrong please correct me) but there have been in HYR.
Thats about all I can provide, anyone got any views on this?
Andrew Timms

10th August 2006, 13:03
The curriculum that I have seen for HYR includes a great deal number more than 30 kata. It is commonly stated that there are 30 initial kata that are taught to students, with quite a few more available as one prorgress through the system.

My understanding of the system is that Minaki sensei changed the organization of the waza as well as the manner in which they were instructed. The core principles of the system were not altered nor the application of the waza.

As I stated above the Omote no kata that is practiced in HYR does have it roots firmly in the shoden no kata of Takagi ryu.


11th August 2006, 13:23
Hi all,

My understanding is that Minaki soke reorganized principles of Takagi Ryu into three sets of kata, which are now the core of (unarmed) techniques of Hontai Yoshin Ryu. There are also other kata.

As Jeff mentioned, the principles have not been changed, only the outer form.

The current soke has told to me that Omote no Kata in HYR is original Takagi ryu kata. There may be small differences compared to other branches (for example in how some atemi are done).


Todd Schweinhart
18th August 2006, 17:55
Hello guys,

Looks like this thread had kappo applied to it...

Minaki sensei was obviously a strong student as he did receive several scrolls as well as Yagi Ikigoro katana which is still used in HYR today. Pretty neat piece of history.

The HYR kata were taken from the original HYTR kata. For example, you might be doing the second set of kata in HYR (nage no kata) but actually doing a variety of different kata from different levels of the original school that Minaki sensei trained in. With that in mind it makes it all very difficult to understand.

The important thing is just choose something/someone to follow and be happy with your decision. If it doesn't turn out to be what you want then you can simply go elsewhere. If you choose wisely you will eventually get everything that you desire and then some. The old saying is..."you deserve the teacher that you end up with".

Good luck!
Todd Schweinhart