View Full Version : Judo Is Real

25th January 2002, 20:01
A couple of weeks ago I went to a weekend seminar being taught by a Goju Ryu teacher named Kimo Wall. After class on Friday evening one of the men who also came to the class is a long time Judo teacher from Moline IL in addition to being a Shorin Ryu practioner. Mr Mills was demonstrating nage waza as it was done before the techniques were made safe by Jigaro Kano. These included some nasty variations on Tai Otoshi and a Ippon Seionage done from the outside instead of the inside so that the throw damages uke’s elbow. These techniques are devastating but great care must be taken in order to practice them. Some of them you simply can not practice without hurting uke. ( so you tskuri but never kake) It was interesting to see just what kind of technique Judo evolved from.

My question is : What techniques are better for self defense? 1) Techniques that have potential to invoke large amount of damage to your enemy but you have not been able to practice them in earnest due to their dangerous nature. Or 2) Techniques that are tamer in comparison but you know them real good because you spend 2 nights a week bouncing your buddies off the dojo floor with them.

I’m a karate guy. I did 5 years of judo 20 years ago. I’m doing Judo again because I wanted my son to try Judo and I got him hooked on the sport so we signed up on the family plan. The thing I always appreciated about Judo is the reality of it. In karate and jujutsu you have to occasionally role play with your partner in order to practice waza that is too dangerous to apply for real. The reality of Judo may be its greatest asset. Did this make sense?

Take care.
Ed Boyd

26th January 2002, 08:58
Hi, Ed,
I thought your post deserved a "new thread" status. While it is based in the older "self-defense" thread, this asks new questions.

I will leave a notice in the old thread as well.


26th January 2002, 09:54
Off the top of my head, for rear attacks, any forward motion throw, the one which takes the least time: uki goshi and other hip throws (I'm assuming this will be done on a hard surface as well), the shoulder throw you mention (there are variations which can turn them, or even start them with an applied joint lock, and that ippon seoinage is done in kata off a punch). You may secure an armlock while doing seoinage (naked).

It is also better to do a throw in which you keep both feet on the ground until kake or until uke is on the way to the ground, so tai otoshi both the kuki-style tai otoshi or that favored today. On attacks in which you parry blows, get on the inside quickly to do the rear directed throws. It also negates the attacker's punching room, as they are generally not nearly as effective. Stay on the outside, it may be a different story.

Any kind of body slam if on a hard surface, or soft. Throws such as dakiage, technically a koshi-waza, are not to be done up to speed, generally, and spefically not in shiai. With a clothed attacker, it can be devastating.

Attacks from the front, well, taking out what atemi skills you have (we all have it, it just needs to be directed). Because of my lack of height, I do o soto gari, o uchi gake, ko soto gake, etc., with a forearm to the head/upper body which, in principle will off-balance the attacker. But even if attacked from the front, forward momentum throws can be used, but carefully. Use your elbow[s] on the inside. It isn't wise to take your eye off the attacker, unless you are sure of yourself, AND the attack is weaponless, they can be used.

Don't leave your feet unless you have secured an arm lock on the way down. Makikomi type sacrifice throws work if you are falling on top of the attacker, making the force more intense, and you intend to take it to the ground or have all ready cinched a joint lock.

Above all, practice what does work for you without the jacket (naked or with a tee-shirt). Seoinage is one for jamming the elbow/forearm (morote style) up into the arm pit, bringing uke over while setting an arm lock.

Above all, make it simple. There really isn't any need for complicated techniques, generally.

Most fisticuffs or attacks are over quickly. Use the time wisely.:)

I know I will come back and edit it this.

26th January 2002, 14:46
mark that was beautiful!
that is exactly how it is done. the way we practice these is a fully committed attack by uke and a fully committed defense. uke has no way of knowing what is about to happen. of course these are upper level techniques and exercises. all belts under sankyu the attacks are slower but tori still uses what ever defense he wants. also tori shocks the body first with a strike. you don't have to hit hard, just a good tap in the solar plexus gets the result and kuzushi you need to pull of the throw. or a open hand slap(palm heel strike) to the forehead of uke to initiate osto gari.

2nd February 2002, 11:21
The problem is a core one. It goes to the reason Jigoro Kano changed the jujutsu systems.

How do you master a move so dangerous and deadly that you can not do it safely against a living, resisting, partner?

There it is, and it must be addressed.

We can see that the concept of a "martial sport" is key here. This is not to say that the sporting techniques are to be used on the street, but that what we learn there sure applies.

If you can't apply seoi nage in randori, you are not going to get the elbow break version in a real fight. However, if you can get the safe one, it is VERY easy to change up if you have to hurt someone.

O soto gari is another example. If I palm heel your chin, change up and over to an eye gouge, then hit the o soto and leave my hand there, on impact that fight is over. However, if I can't hit an o soto in randori for beans, it is going to be much harder to hit one when my life is on the line.

Having to do randori and shiai are also stress inducing battles that will get you ready for the stress of a real fight.

Kano was much sharper than many folks give him credit for.

: )

2nd February 2002, 16:29
i don't agree. I have never been to a shiai and i am a shodan under usja. However, before I took up judo I was a karateka for 15 years and a jujutsuka for eight. I also was a bouncer in one of the rougher bars in Houston. I became a bouncer for no other reason than to test my skills. Jujutsu techniques are applied easier than judo. i don't have to grab you per se. Judo is more challenging because first i have to get a grip, break your balance and than throw you. With respect to your osoto example. This is probably the most favorite tech of any bouncer because of its ease. one altercation i had for example, this” patron” decided he didn't want to pay the cover charge. When I approached him, he lunged at me with a straight punch. Not a red neck sucker punch but more of a boxers or lunge punch type. All i did was block with my left hand semi wrap it around his arm and when my left hand came up for the palm heel strike he was already going over. I pushed his head back and reaped his legs straight back and hard. He went down head first, feet up. Fight over. This was 10 times easier than anything I tried to pull of in randori was. All though I half way agree if you can pull it off in randori, you may or may not pull it off in the street. The problem i have with teaching jujutsu to the judoka at my club is that they want to grab me when a punch is better. Btw, they cannot punch worth a crap except for one guy who had a toide background before judo. I want you to tie up your hands. I can launch a strike much quicker than you can break my balance.
Although i believe judo can be used for self defense the way it is taught is more of a handicap than a self-defense art. Will shiai training prepare you for a real life encounter; perhaps. you would definitely be better off than some one who never fought in any type of arena. But i have seen many boxing, judo, and jujutsuka who can not handle the stress of a real life encounter where there is no referee and your opponent has only one thing on his mind, hurt you. In addition, many of the sport techniques are very dangerous to apply in the street. You never, never, want to go to the ground for any reason. You never know who has a knife or friends lurking around. Yet many judoka say they will take their attacker to the ground. Coach lafon say's train as you fight. In addition, I agree I do not do "sport judo" because i do not want to developed the skills to win a throwing match. I want to developed the skills that one day will save my life or the life of a loved one.
I do agree though with the fact that martial sport keeps what skills, you have honed, but i also know that if you put many restraints on your training (ijf rules) you will fight with these limitations. In my judo class with the other black belts, even though it may be jujutsu night and all rules are off i locked them and throw them a whole lot easier than in judo class. Why? Because even though they can fight any way, they want. They fight judo style (ijf) and i lock their legs, ankle wrists, and shoulders every time. But, when we go judo (ijf) sometimes they beat me sometimes i beat them.
During draggers day judo was much different than it is today, yet I still here the same quote about, I rather have a judoka than a karateka. Most judoka, never learn atemi waza. Draeger knew it. Most judoka do not know how to punch than move into a joint lock other than the elbow and keep it flowing into a throw. Draeger did.and Jujutsuka do. I also here from judoka, that you can’t practice these techniques full blown. Again, this is not true. I have done full contact karate and jujutsu where I have you elbow locked as in shionage or sankyu and throw uke to the ground. The difference is control. I let go off the lock before you hit. Black belts do techniques differently than white belts yet when using the randori arguments from judoka they all say it can’t be done.and we are a lumped in together. I did it for going on 10 years now. Therefore, do most jujutsuka. Judo would be a much more effective martial art instead of a sport if it kept kanos original 10 rules instead of all these stupid ijf rules. Than this whole argument would be moot. Original judo is a very deadly martial art, a very effective martial art and has a true sport nature to it. Today’s judo is a very watered down version, leaving many judoka with the same over confidence as the Olympic tkd people. They believe there martial sport is number one and they can take out a judoka. Who is correct? Who do you think would win a bar fight. Between gene lebell and mike swain? My money would go to lebell sensei.

Kit LeBlanc
2nd February 2002, 18:57
Originally posted by rsamurai2

..... He went down head first, feet up. Fight over. This was 10 times easier than anything I tried to pull of in randori was. All though I half way agree if you can pull it off in randori, you may or may not pull it off in the street. The problem i have with teaching jujutsu to the judoka at my club is that they want to grab me when a punch is better. Btw, they cannot punch worth a crap except for one guy who had a toide background before judo. I want you to tie up your hands. I can launch a strike much quicker than you can break my balance.

......In addition, many of the sport techniques are very dangerous to apply in the street. You never, never, want to go to the ground for any reason. You never know who has a knife or friends lurking around. Yet many judoka say they will take their attacker to the ground.

As far as the first goes, it was probably far easier than in randori because of the skills developed IN RANDORI against skilled resistance. The people I have taken down in real situations went down far easier than in randori as well. A lot has to do with the nature of real fights vs. randori, (surprise being a BIG one), and the level of grappling skill of the opponents faced.

This guy probably had no idea that it was coming. That does not mean randori, by sporting rules, is not an excellent method of training and very adaptable to street situations. It means that so far the fights you have been in were easier than randori...that's all.

The punch is NOT always better than the grab.

RE: going to the ground, never say never...

It is convenient to think this way, it sounds all "combatively sound," and a lot of traditional jujutsu as well as Judo people that can't understand groundfighting combatively applied, thinking it ALL looks like Brazilian Newaza Judo, often repeat it like a mantra, but real life doesn't always fit into our preconceived notions.

Besides you won't always have a choice. If you have never been to the ground in a real fight, you haven't been in enough real fights. Believe it or not, it does happen. Sometimes it is the smartest thing to do.


3rd February 2002, 01:53
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc

As far as the first goes, it was probably far easier than in randori because of the skills developed IN RANDORI against skilled resistance. The people I have taken down in real situations went down far easier than in randori as well. A lot has to do with the nature of real fights vs. randori, (surprise being a BIG one), and the level of grappling skill of the opponents faced.

this is before i ever did randori. i have only been doing judo a couple of years. this is when i was a jujutsuka and all we ever did was attack defends skills. like one and two step sparrinig in karate.

This guy probably had no idea that it was coming. That does not mean randori, by sporting rules, is not an excellent method of training and very adaptable to street situations. It means that so far the fights you have been in were easier than randori...that's all.

randori is an excellent training method. i never said it wasn't i said ijf type randori which in my dojo when i was going through the ranks was the only kind allowed. if it wasn't legal in shiai it was either taught or allowed in the dojo.

The punch is NOT always better than the grab.

it is when you tied your hands up grapping me.

RE: going to the ground, never say never...

although i understand this , imeant going to the ground on purpose, in my jujutsu style we learned nasty eye gouges and other ilegal techniques when we were on the ground in order to get back up quickly.

Besides you won't always have a choice. If you have never been to the ground in a real fight, you haven't been in enough real fights. Believe it or not, it does happen. Sometimes it is the smartest thing to do.
i was typicaly in 3 to 4 altercations every thursday, friday and saturday night for two years. never once went to the ground.

kit i understand what you are trying to convey, judo is an excellent art. and there are so many variables that come into play. it isn't always the art but the fighter. in my dojo alone we have some pretty awful fighters in both judpo and jujutsu. so you can see it can vary from dojo to dojo and as well as within the dojo. my problem with sport judo is many oahes only teach sport. they never teach self defense, attack drills or ilegal techniques. and kata is only for belt ranking and than soon forgotten. if your dojos teach these techniques than my posts are moot.


3rd February 2002, 01:56
well kit you are going to have to figure out by your lasy post what i am saying, as everybody can see, i am crappy at this quote stuff!

Jay Bell
3rd February 2002, 02:01
Mr Mills was demonstrating nage waza as it was done before the techniques were made safe by Jigaro Kano.

From where did Mr. Mills get this information? Sounds pretty interesting

3rd February 2002, 03:29
Originally posted by Jay Bell

From where did Mr. Mills get this information? Sounds pretty interesting

I don't know. I missed the very begining of the what he was showing so I don't know if he even said. But the techniques were really interesting. I know he has Yudansha grade in a Jujutsu system called Hakko Ryu in addition to having been teaching Judo for about 40 years. Maybe they were Hakko Ryu versions of Judo techniques or maybe not. I don't know where his info came from.

3rd February 2002, 13:19
Originally posted by rsamurai2
I also here from judoka, that you can't practice these techniques full blown. Again, this is not true. I have done full contact karate and jujutsu where I have you elbow locked as in shionage or sankyu and throw uke to the ground. The difference is control. I let go off the lock before you hit. .............

This is the kind of thing what my orginal question was talking about. In order to practice your shihonage you must release the lock or blow uke's arm, so you stop short of the full technique, which is good. Because mutual well being is a good thing in the dojo. This is why in aikido shihonage is done with uke's elbow is kept high and close to uke's head, this way you can throw uke safely. I heard Kondo Sensei say that in Daito Ryu ukemi is impossible if the techniques are done correctly. So they modify the techniques so they may be practiced safely in the dojo.

I was just curious what people thought would be the more dependable techniques. Safer techniques that are very well practiced or techniques that pack a lot of hurt but don't get practiced as full techniques due to saftey concerns. I was hestitant to post particular techniques because 1) I'm uncomfortable posting applications of techniques that are of such a dangerous nature on an open forum. 2) When I try to put things into words I rarely get it right anyway. But it seems the thread is taking arguementive direction because my original post was so vague. This seems to be leading us to a peeing contest over the value of sport Judo.

Here is an example of a technique you can not practice.

- bad guy step forward attack with right tsuski, you block with left then right hands.
- then pull with right hand closing in and to his left.
- then strike badguy in the top center of his right butt cheek with left inverted punch or left palm heel. same time shoot right knife hand across badguy's neck.
- Then apply a variation of hadaka jime with left forearm pushing downward from behind. Frog kick both your legs out from under yourself and drop straight down breaking bad guys neck.

The technique is simple and straight forward but you can't work it with your training partner. So the question is when you really have to depend on a technique which way is better, a technique that is super effective in theory or a technique you have actually done many many times.

Ed Boyd

Kit LeBlanc
3rd February 2002, 14:52

We obviously believe differently. Frankly the eye gouges and nasty stuff will only work on the ground if you have the superior position to make them effective...if the other guy has the superior position they will probably just piss him off.

To have been in that many altercations as a bouncer and never had to take anyone to the ground? Then again, maybe what we each call a *fight* is different....

3rd February 2002, 14:59
Hi, Everybody,

Good thread. While I was reading, it occured to me that all the "what ifs" and techniques I learned in the '60s never came to mind at all when I was bouncing in the '80s. It was that same old lesson of randori teaching correct reaction. When I bounced, I used all manner of chokes, nage, atemi. And when it was time to "reason" with patrons on a physical level, I trusted my judo and was never disappointed (I bounced for two years).


Kit LeBlanc
3rd February 2002, 15:18

It is clear to me that folks reason differently. I would agree with you.

For example, I do not consider that a professional football player would not be a dangerous opponent in a fight because he practices a non-fighting sport.

I do not feel that a football player, in the midst of a serious confrontation, would be *unable* to pull very deliberate and very brutal techniques out of his hat and use them because he does not train them in his sport, or at all. Sure they won't be armbars, but like throat grabs, eye gouges, knee drops, strikes, etc.

I also do not feel that because footbal is after all *not* fighting, that a football player would *not* be able to use those skills that he has developed which *do* directly apply to hand to hand combat (high speed, antagonistic resistive movement between human bodies ), along with the brutality mentioned above, simply because he doesn't train it for fighting against another human being.

3rd February 2002, 18:14
Originally posted by rsamurai2
I have done full contact karate and jujutsu where I have you elbow locked as in shionage or sankyu and throw uke to the ground. The difference is control. I let go off the lock before you hit.

In the above quote, you just described your rule for training in the dojo, so why the complaint about other "rules?" "Control." In shiai, if you are going to score at all, you must have control of uke. You did, so do judoka. You simply have a problem with the IJF rules, not rules entirely. You explain yourself into a corner then come out with a different set of rules. That isn't any different than what a judo "COACH" might do. You used the word coach. Coaches are for control and preparation. IMO, that is the very definition of sports.

What about eye gouges, using car keys to cut someone's throat, etc.? You know that going in, it doesn't take continuous, repetitive practice to learn them. You can take a two week course for Rape Intervention and learn that. The military does an even better job in six weeks of basic training, and that is what you refer to, isn't it?

You also state that the jujutsu way which is better, faster, etc., because you don't have to grip, off-balance, then do whatever else it takes. Those are descriptions of what unarmed combat is made of, taken piece by piece. Kano has never been discredited (I refer to Mark Tripp's post concerning "elbow break" seoinage, etc.), and in fact was the first academic to scientifically take jujutsu technique apart, developed some kata to show what he means point by point (Itsutsu no kata, ju no kata, etc., and the Go no kata for his point that not everything is done softly, pliable. Nothing is a constant). Well, there is the "Feigenbaum Constant, the Einstein constant," etc. (no, I'm not speaking about myself, another. Enter my name as a search word and you'll see what I mean).

But as to throwing and throwing while securing an armlock, eg, wakigatame, or the flying Waki, flying armlock, etc. have been argued to death in many discussions right here in this forum. Some judges in a match will not allow it and will call a severe penalty and another will call ippon for the guy who set it, and threw with it. it is a matter of judgement and control, the two things you do agree on, Richard.

Then, you continuously bring in the IJF, but if you go there and do some searching, you will find that ALL of the rules of the IJF are voluntary. No one has to follow them, especially if you don't want to compete. This is a matter of one's control.

So you don't grip, you don't off-balance, you don't finish the throw?? How you described your o soto gari is nearly exactly the throw using atemi to off-balance the opponent, with jodai, or with me, just a forearm to the chest, neck or face, as I have a serious lack of height. Jon Bluming, who was a student and friend to the late Donn Draeger teaches his nage waza and groundwork with no gripping. Most have trouble because it has become a conditioned response, but most of any group of Kodokan technique, the softer ones, do not need to be gripped, and that is where I disagree with Mark Tripp on the "folded elbow (eri-seoi-nage)." It IS a good example of a throw done with no gripping, failing that, one drags the arm by grabbing the wrist, jamming the arm so har up into the arm pit that the attacker is three inches off the ground, then you set it in motion, with control. You can't leave control at the door and get out of a fight, too. Control is what makes a fight. You can do ippon-seoinage off a punch, too, but the original version does quite nicely.

Now while Bluming teaches no gripping in newaza (with the hands to clothing, I mean. He teaches control in a different, high center, position), I was able to easily escape his osae. Not bragging, but he gave the reason himself as to why he had trouble controling me on the ground: "His arms are too short." So in my case, you would be better off gripping...something. That also may be my only out if someone 6'5" fighting someone 5'3", I'm not as confident as you seem to be.

There are rules to everything. This means from randori, to being prepared with proper control of one's self, with weapons, or things which can be used as a weapon, which may be laying around. The fact is, no matter how you do it, control IS number one, but the way you describe it "I can do it faster because I don't have to grip, off-balance, then finish the throw. I do it all at once." (I realize that isn't your exact quote, just what you meant, as I read it.) Well, that's right. You do it all at one time. Kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake happen whether you are aware of it or not, and even in a match with rules, to be in control, it does have to come off all at once, again control, conditioned response. Against a drunken, unruly patron, it may not seem like it, but take it apart, millisecond by millisecond. That is what Kano did, and why people, not only Donn Draeger, but Robert W. Smith who calls judo "our jacketed wrestling," and still, today, prefers the company of judoka down the dark, lonely, and dangerous alley. I wonder why.

And as to Donn Draeger, he had all ready written that judo was way outside the circle of budo, but still insisted that he'd rather have the company of a judoka (don't forget, judoka inplies expertise, so most in Japan are not even called judo-KA until fourth or fifth dan. Before that they are "judo-shugyosha)."

So yes, control. No control, and someone gets hurt in the dojo, and outside he gets away from you. Control, even to the point of allowing the attacker's own strength work for you, you still have control, or should. Uke needs to be directed, but otherwise, things come off as easily as your o soto gari did. There are all sorts of legal reasons, and those who are in Law or LE, can explain it better than I ever could, eg, Kit, but then his explanations make sense to me, so I'm just an aging, overweight, balding judoka who still has the same ponytail from the sixties, and yes, I realize it can be used against me. I found that out early, when I took up wrestling in college for the last 1/2 credit I needed to be a full-time college student. The coach still asked me to join the team. Why? I had no other freestyle experience, but I had years of judo experience, and wrestlers break arms and legs even when the don't mean to do it.

BTW: The teacher with hakko-ryu experience, a dan grade or other menjo? This was first taught as aikijujutsu, even borrowing from Daito ryu, and this (DRAJJ) was only founded in the early twentieth century, or thereabouts. Judo is older unless you take their word that it is an 1100 year old organized Japanese fighting art. That is a big generalization, but I don't intend to get specific.

Anyway, this has been a good discussion and even if some of us have different ways of thinking concerning these "things," we probably all can agree that judo is a combative sport, just like boxing, or would you like to start a thread on "Iron Mike?" :eek:


Kit LeBlanc
3rd February 2002, 20:08
.....for putting some things into words that I couldn't. I FELT them, but just didn't know how to WRITE them.

At least Richard is serious about this stuff, i.e. the applications of Judo to fighting and the problem of competition/randori rules. I guess I would only add, Richard, that I feel too that you are kind of defining yourself into a corner. Mark and I don't necessarily see it the same way, though I think we both completely understand where you are coming from, and I know I at least have some of the same frustrations.

I choose not to focus on the limitations, though, but at what the good points are, and I don't assume that myself or other can't or wouldn't use imagination, or just plain instinct, in transferring the useful elements of shiai-randori judo to shinken shobu.


4th February 2002, 11:32
War stories as evidence are always interesting, but not much help over all.

It comes down to an old radio skit with Bob Hope and Jimmy Durante.

Hope: I have love letters from 50 girls in my dressing room

Jimmy : Thats nothing, I have love letters from 100 girls

Hope: Well I was out with a lovely starlet last night

Jimmy: Thats nothing, I was out with two starlets last night

Hope: (silence)

Jimmy: Well?

Hope: Oh no you don't, this time you go first.

Really that is where this is going. If randori and shiai were not of value, we wouldn't be doing them. I have the russian manuals, in russian, of how to set up and teach hard core combat sambo to russian troops. In the last two chapters of the book they show how to set up and run sambo sporting events, and EVERY one had to do them.

I could go on, but like Hope, anything I say is going to be "trumped" or in this case, "Jimmied".

I notice people are still trying to get past the UFC/Gracie thing, and all the other things like it. I also notice that people are working very hard to get past the idea that hard randori and shiai is necessary to build strong fighters. I'll stick with the russians on this one.

hector gomez
4th February 2002, 12:30
A practicioner that trains a safer technique under full
resistance and understands how to apply it under real physical
tolerance will ultimately become so good at utilizing this
technique that he will be able to impose his skill over someone that unfortunately does not practice his skill under real resistance,this makes his so called non-deadly technique more practical and combat effecient than the deadly technique that is not practiced under full resistence.

Hector Gomez

4th February 2002, 14:46
You are correct. my problem is not with rules but with the ijf rules. Also I do understand that they are voluntary. The problem is, in my experience, that everybody dojo follow them. Is the big coaches like hrbek, and lafon train to the shia as well as mine did. In my opinion this is robbing the judoka of the entire art. Judo wasn’t designed as a sport per se. it was developed to preserve the jujutsu ryuhas. Why even learn all the judo throws. Just stick with learning 4 or 5 of the most successful scoring throws in competition and practices them from every angle. No need to even learn any of the katas because they are not useful. See what I mean. My problem isn't with sport per se. It’s with the limitations of the rules. If you and I were working out, we would make rules for that. We may say no punching, or no sutemi waza. But we both know and have trained with these techniques. Another problem I have with sport judo are the rules that are designed for the spectator. Come on! Judo is not a spectator sport. Football is. Judo is a participant sport. Is for the judoka, shiai should reflect the judoka technique, strategy and cunningness. Not for the excitement of the spectator.

4th February 2002, 15:52
Originally posted by hector gomez
A practicioner that trains a safer technique under full
resistance and understands how to apply it under real physical
tolerance will ultimately become so good at utilizing this
technique that he will be able to impose his skill over someone that unfortunately does not practice his skill under real resistance,this makes his so called non-deadly technique more practical and combat effecient than the deadly technique that is not practiced under full resistence.

Hector Gomez

Well stated sir! Spoken like a true scientist.

Ed Boyd

4th February 2002, 16:10
Originally posted by rsamurai2
Just stick with learning 4 or 5 of the most successful scoring throws in competition and practices them from every angle. No need to even learn any of the katas because they are not useful. See what I mean.

I hear what you are saying neighbor. USJF Chicago Yudanshakai has two sets of promotion requirements. One for competitors and one for non-competitors. If you are a non-competitor going for shodan you must demonstrate Nage No Kata. If you are a successful competitor I suppose you would only need to know 1 or 2 throws if was enough for you to win with. Something about that don't seem right. The long term effects on the art could be very damaging, as techniques not applicable to good shiai results get lost. Then again I understand that in the sport you want your best players to compete against each other.

Hopefully there will continue to be enough people practicing Judo for the love of the art that the the art lives on. Maybe that is how tired old people like me best serve Judo.

Ed Boyd
Springfield IL

4th February 2002, 21:01
But the problem isn't promoting people to black belt because they fight well, it is promoting them to high rank because they fight well.

Then, years later, they will be very high belts with very little judo knowledge.

There are many kinds of randori and shiai. Sadly we seem to focus on only a small number of them with the sport judo flavor. However, if it stays that way that is our fault.

There is more to Kodokan Judo than the IJF. Get out there and make it so!

I'm getting too old to lead the charge.....

5th February 2002, 14:39
Hullo! Nice thread.

I'd like to point out something to the non-deadly tech/deadly tech issue.
We have a sport judoka in our dojo, a woman of her late twenties, who used to compete in jujutsu tournaments but is thinking of stopping since the jujutsu people she faced had so little randori/shiai-type practice that when she threw them, she would regularly break their arms since they had not practiced full force all that much.

To clarify: she threw her opponent with uke-waza, and because her opponent had trained mostly in kata-type (and these people are all shodans or more), did not know how to twist properly to his back but ended twisting so that both his long bones in the forearm snapped, because she still held his arm, as is common in uke-waza.
And this happens regularly in non-judo competitions, since her opponents have so little experience in an "all out - full force" randori/shiai.

This is just an example, and cannot be generalized, but I hope my point came through here.

Tuomas Peltomäki

5th February 2002, 18:23
that is a generlization based on one person story. although i have witnessed similar jujitsu clubs. you are correct in that many jujutsu clubs do only soft kata type moves. i have been to two different club in the last year. niether club could lock me and when i went to lock them they were screaming i had no control. these clubs give jujutsu a bad name. in my style of jujutsu everything is done full force. you learn to take a punch around green belt and the force is increased over the next couple of years. when we lock you your locked, all drills aredone with uke attacking full force with either a grab or a punch. you have no idea what uke is doing. just like randori. tori counters with a punch lock throw of his choice. half of our club are judo converts. they come wanting to shiai with us, however we strike in class to the body before we grip and throw, a procedure most judoka don't like. in my jujutsu club the judoka get beaten everytime, not because judo is ineffecient, but because of the limitations the judoka put on them selves. they grip us we punch them, we throw them. they also don't like ankle and leg locks, they leave them selves wide open to them. now i have been beaten by judoka at my judo club before, but that is because i can't use many of the techniques i know. we all read my previuos posts so i am not even going to list why. what i have found out though in almost 30 years of experience is, it is not the style you train in but how you train in that style. as i said when i opened this post, i have seen some crappy jujutsu, the instructors live with this myth trhat jujutsu is to rough to practice full out. bull sh@@! if this was the case jujutsu never would have been a battlefield art, it would have died out centuries ago. randori came from jujutsu, kano developed his style of randori to fit his needs. he used to randori with his kito ryu sensei until he figured out the principle of kuzshi and his instructor told him he had nothing else to learn. kata is very important in order to learn the techs. it gives you a format to learn correct technique, after profenciy. in kata attack and defense drills like those of karates' one step and two step sparring drills, than kumite and/or randori should be practiced. the problem i have seen with judo over karate and jujutsu(two other arts i teach) is we as judoka push students to compete before they are ready, many students havn't mastered the principles of throwing before we put them in a shiai, this i believe is why we see so many sloppy techniques and hard style judo. even kano was unimpressed after watching many shiai, and was heard commenting on how judo has becme gedan judo or low judo because of the reliance on strenght."like two bulls fighting" judo is good because of randori, but jujutsu also has randori(in my style we do kumite also, along with a mixture of randori/kumite) and karate is strong because of sparring. don't think for a moment that karateka can't fight because they do much kata. but i have seen weak karate and i have seen weak jujutsu, and i have seen weak judo. again it all depends on the style of these arts and the way these arts train. in my judo club we started a jujutsu program, all the adults want to leave the judo syllabus and comeover to the jujutsu. i make them stay in judo until green belt before i let them come over this is because judo teaches excellent fudementals. judo should be everybodys first art, than karate or jujutsu than aikido, it is easier to add techniquees to one body of knowlege than to take away from them. this has been my big frustration with judo, when i play judo i can't do most of what i learned 20 years ago.

6th February 2002, 14:13
It is strange that we are once again going to see the old saw about jujutsu being a "battlefield" art.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me the "battle" where the jujutsu army defeated the other one! : )

Scientific process has to come into this debate sooner or later. As such, we need to examine the old beliefs about what did or did not happen.

Example, anyone who thinks pesant farmers defeated satmura trained samauri with farm tools, has never watched people at a kendo dojo. There is no way people with the sai, took out people with the sword. Years ago Kubota sensei tried to put together a sport where the different weapons could spar with eath other, you might notice it didn't get very far as lots of traditional notions were dispelled.

The idea that the unarmed samauri used jujutsu to defeat a sword weilding samauri is simply a tall tale. I know that upsets people, but I do not have to know what did happen, to know what did not. Again, visit a kendo dojo and see how effective you are at disarming one of them.

The simple reality is jujutsu for the battlefield samauri came down to one of three functions. The bigest one getting their arms free to draw their sword. This is why the jujutsu styles have so many techniques against wrist and body grabs.

To a lesser extent the idea of using the legs to knock down a person while keeping the hands on the sword, and grappling in armor comes to play.

Now, if we leave the battlefield things change pretty quickly. Personal defense is very different from defending a castle or storming one as well.

This is where the jujutsu ryu grows almost beyond our ability to see and digest. There were a very large number of styles, systems, and concepts there.

However, there is no doubt that the training method is the key here, and that the way we train makes or breaks the situation where we must apply what we have learned.

Getting the student to overcome natural stress reactions is the core function of reality training. Some of us feel that no ammount of kata or one step is going to replace the idea of randori and shiai. As I have said, not every randori or shiai needs to be done as per IJF papers. The use of a motorcycle helmet, a padded throat collar, a boxers no foul cup, some grapplers gloves and a good pair of shin instep guards gives you an attacker who can attack tori full force and uke can delever atemi, under very hard core randori conditions.

That is how I have done it for years, and it seems to work very well. That scientific process has shown us what works very well, and what NOT to do for fear of injury or failure.

All you have to do is expermient, rather than take the tall tales as facts......

6th February 2002, 21:03
i guess your right. jujutsu is a useless art. never was effective that is why kano had to reinvent the wheel. randori and shiai are the only ways to train for real life situations. although no one fights in real life like they do in randori, and all randori does is give a person a format to practice throwing techniques against a person who is trying to throw you and doesnt throw and punches or strikes. oh, yea, and has agreed to use only certain techniques and has agreed to certain rules, i i forgot he has also agreed to wear a loose fitting jacket to make it easier to grip for you. and most real life fights are over in 30 seconds, as soon as the first person is hit. but atemi isn't allowed in most judo schools, so most judoka never learn it. man i can't believe i wasted 25 years in karate and jujutsu. if only they had some relivence. all this time karate and jujutsu was only a dance, not able to teach a person how to defend themselves. God, i am so glad i do judo now. now i am really learning a martial art. even though judo has more rules than louisaina state law books. and most judo schools only teach what can be used in a contest. man all of us on e budo are jst wasting time because we don't do randori and shiai.
i have seen the light!

Will Wetherell
6th February 2002, 22:31
rsamurai2, what jujutsu ryu do you train in?



7th February 2002, 01:06

Could you please cut and paste where I said it was "useless"?

Putting words in my mouth prevents discussion.

You would serve your points better if you replied to my points rather than attempting to change them to make them easier for you to deal with.

If you have someone you feel can take that sword from me with a sai or with their bare hands, lets set that test up.

If you have evidence of the battlefield combat where jujutsu decided the outcome, please share it.

If you feel that kata and one steps are better than randori and shiai then explain it. If you feel your training methods are better than others, then explain that.

Anything else is flummery and needs no comment from me.

7th February 2002, 02:27
mr tripp,
i apologise.
it was just the tone of your post and the constant aragonce of the judo community(of which i am apart) that jujutsu is an inferior art because it dosen't do shiai they way judo does. first i would suggest looking up the united states jujitsu federation webpage and look at the rules for shiai. www.united states jujitsu.net it includes the same rules as ijf to a certain degree but also many of the same rules as karate kumite. it is a myth that jujutsu schools only do kata. people confuse prearanged forms (KATA) WITH ATTACK AND DEFENSE DRILLS. these drills tori has no idea what uke is throwing, and tori has to defend with one of his techniques of his choice. the attacks and defenses are done full force. at least in my style. it just seems i am always defending jujutsu to the judo people. i teach judo, jujutsu and karate, although i haven't taught karate for some years. yes we do kata, but that is done until you learn the technique, than you randori/spar. every martial art i ever studied, we did it full force, that is what blocking and taisabaki are for. karate kumite perfects kicks and punches, judo randori perfects throws, and jujutsu randori/sparring/ attack defensedrills do both.
again i apologise for my posts but i have been down this road many times and when i read your post it just hit me wrong(pardon the pun).

Kit LeBlanc
7th February 2002, 02:40

One word for you:


No offense, it just may make your posts easier to read.

I think when people are thinking JUJUTSU= KATA they are thinking of classical Japanese ryuha, not the more modern jujutsu styles.

Although some of the classical schools did/do have other training methods/drills besides kata, generally kata is the primary method of instruction.

7th February 2002, 04:35
Hi, Guys.

There is no sense in debating whether Judo or Jujutsu or Karate is superior. My teacher taught me Judo and Jujutsu and encouraged me to learn where I could and bring any good stuff I found back to share. It's all good IF the teacher is good, and if we spend enough time in the cup, we grow stronger (as can be said of even the weakest tea).

Sorry to sound like a fortune cookie, but there's no substitute for a lot of time if we want to understand this stuff. I've been at it for thirty-five years, and I just catch a glimmer once in a while.


7th February 2002, 07:28
So, ah, well I always did wonder who Steven Seagal was portraying in that movie and all this time, it was you, Ed?


7th February 2002, 14:47
Hi, Mark.

My secret is out. (Line up in an orderly fashion to your left and be patient; everyone will get an autograph.)

Love to all my fans,

Ben Reinhardt
7th February 2002, 18:37
Originally posted by MTripp

Could you please cut and paste where I said it was "useless"?

Putting words in my mouth prevents discussion.

You would serve your points better if you replied to my points rather than attempting to change them to make them easier for you to deal with.

If you have someone you feel can take that sword from me with a sai or with their bare hands, lets set that test up.

If you have evidence of the battlefield combat where jujutsu decided the outcome, please share it.

If you feel that kata and one steps are better than randori and shiai then explain it. If you feel your training methods are better than others, then explain that.

Anything else is flummery and needs no comment from me.

There were methods to disarm warriors with swords. However, they used three different weapons, all on LONG poles. And it was usually 3 on one, not one on one.

Mark Tripp knows all this, of course. Draeger points out what Mark says in one of his books. He also points out that as time went on, and samurai/warrior skill with the sword decreased (due to the enforced peace of the Tokugawa shogunate), the poles got shorter and shorter. This happened commensurate with the rise/explosion of unarmed combatives in Japan.

I tried to disarm a sandan in Kendo one time. All I can say is I'm glad he was using a shinai, and pulled his blows.

Ben Reinhardt

John Bennett
9th February 2002, 12:31
Originally posted by rsamurai2
the way we practice these is a fully committed attack by uke and a fully committed defense. ... the attacks and defenses are done full force. at least in my style.

I hope you can see that what you state is utterly Impossible. If this were true you would soon run out of training partners.

Also, being a bouncer at a nightclub you probably didn't get many opportunties to use your deadly karate punches (at least I hope not).

If you had, you would have quickly discovered that in REAL fights the probabilty of breaking your hand while striking is extremely HIGH. A broken hand is utterly useless for both striking and grappling.

Also don't forget about the likelyhood of disease transmission when pounding your cut knuckles into another person's blood.

9th February 2002, 20:42
Originally posted by John Bennett

I hope you can see that what you state is utterly Impossible. If this were true you would soon run out of training partners.

first this is not impossible. we don't do this with white belts these are upper belt techs and training. i have been doing this for 15 years, and i know many dojos both karate and jujutsu that train this way. with your logic you can't practice arm bars or certain throws because of injury. i can easily throw you with an ippon seio and break your neck just by lowering my balance (spreading my leggs further apart
and pulling you over my back instead of around it like lower belts often do) so i guess we shouldn't use this technique any more, to dangerous to do full contact. let me crank your arm with an armbar and that will break to, whoops better not train with this anymore to dangerous. come on people this is supposed to be a martial art. you are going to get hurt. expect it.

we had a saying when i first started training," if you ain't bleeding, you ain't training" now who do you think is better at pulling off techniques someone who trains like me, or someone who only trains the most safest way?

Also, being a bouncer at a nightclub you probably didn't get many opportunties to use your deadly karate punches (at least I hope not).

because of legal ramifications you are correct. but at the higher levels of training you learn how to blend and break balance, much like aikido. karate is not a good style for this line of work. but for sake of argument in karate you learn to use hard punches to soft targets and softer strikes , like palm heel to hard targets( the head)

If you had, you would have quickly discovered that in REAL fights the probabilty of breaking your hand while striking is extremely HIGH. A broken hand is utterly useless for both striking and grappling.

no argument here!

Also don't forget about the likelyhood of disease transmission when pounding your cut knuckles into another person's blood.

again you are correct!

9th February 2002, 21:26
one day i will learn how to quote, just read my post and the one above and like most of my writting, try and figure out what is being said. :D

William F. Kincaid
10th February 2002, 01:21
I too am kinda lost on this part of the forum where is this suppose to be going anyway?:confused: As for my input on this manner I feel that you can only practice Self-defense to a practical point before you start compromising safety and common sense.:nono: Where i teach we allow for a type of Randori that is Self defense orientated but using an Uki-Tori randori format. All of my Judoka are told go committed but go at a speed confrontable with the Technique you are using and the type of attack you are trying to defend against. I have found it is safer this way, allows things to go fast to be more reality based but slow enough to learn what you are doing wrong or how to make it better while giving the Uki the chance to Tap out. Don't know how other people or schools do it but i found this way to be practical and safe.

10th February 2002, 11:11
Originally posted by rsamurai2
one day i will learn how to quote, just read my post and the one above and like most of my writting, try and figure out what is being said. :D

Hi, Richard, et al.,
Go to the bottom of the page where it gives the different kinds of tags or "code" on or available. VBulletin code is available for help in quoting, etc. Click on the link and scroll to the directions for your specific problems with code/tags.

To separate your answers and put them within the same quote, just close the bold tag, write your response, then reopen it for the next block with the bold tag. That is one manner, at least. If you know HTML, you may use that as well. It is similar, to a point.

Hope this helps.


PS: You can also close open tags by clicking "Close Current Tag" above the posting box on the post/reply page.

10th February 2002, 11:27
Originally posted by rsamurai2
i can easily throw you with an ippon seio and break your neck just by lowering my balance...

Uh huh. Most know this and is why the IJF has a specific rule against it called "diving." The thing is, you wouldn't do it, would you, in practice or randori?

You can also lower your center by dropping to both knees using seoinage or seoiotoshi (the difference is one of loading or continuing the throw downward instead of lifting), but instead of guiding the head downwards, you guide it to one side or the other. Spreading your legs outward is not advisable due to losing your balance, but throwing the leg to your rear in seoinage, does help to lower one's center, too, or drop to a knee. This way, you avoid losing your balance.

No matter how you explain it for dojo use, *some* rule applies if you admit you don't use the technique to purposely hurt your partner. You can practice dakiage (body slam technique) also, even though it isn't practiced in randori, but you still practice it, though without the force you may use in an "encounter."

The throws closest to diving are those mentioned plus uchi mata.

I think that is the point being made, in particular, by John Bennett. You just can't disable a partner and say "next." Some control is always necessary.


10th February 2002, 17:16
I don't think that is what is being said, also I believe you missed my point. We practice full out on our techniques in jujutsu, all these techniques that people say can not be practiced that way is simply only repeating a myth. They can be practiced that way and we do it. When I studied karate we had full contact punches to the body with no gloves on. Did it kill us? No! Did we do this with beginners? No but we brought them up by striking them harder and harder as they progressed through the ranks. Same with my jujutsu. We don't slam a white belt with a hard punch to the chin than step behind them and throw them with o soto, and lock the arm or wrist after they hit the ground. But! At sankyu and above we do. No one gets hurt. First your focus is up, and secondly this is how you trained. Read some of the history and American kenpo and how those guys trained in the 40's. My point is no matter what style you practice you can practice full out. Is there a chance of injury? Of course. Read my above post. (Btw that wasn't meant to be done on purpose but on accident. a beginner often doesn’t throw correctly and spreads his legs to keep his balance, thus lowering his stance and giving uke less time to roll out. that was my point there.)

Judo is my third style. All three I have practiced full out. If we were to follow the model that only judo can be practiced full out because of randori, than we would have no fighters in the k1, pride, and pancrase or shoot fighting arenas. And I dare you to tell these people they don't train full out. Or anybody who competes in the ufc.
I hope this makes my point. This is not to say that judo is inferior at all. I run a judo dojo, I promote judo in the community, and I have all of my nephews in judo. I am only stating that judo isn't the only style that can be practiced full out. If it were than karate, jujutsu and kung fu would have died out eons ago.

Kit LeBlanc
10th February 2002, 21:17
DELETED. It's no longer worth the time....

10th February 2002, 22:05
First there is no need to be ugly!
I think what we have here is an agreement on the same issue but because this is done post by post and not a real life conversation we have what is called a communication breakdown.
Based on your post I agree with you 100%. When I said we practice full out, I didn't include eye gouges or the nasty stuff you mentioned. Of course we don't grab each other’s eyes. But when we grapple we put our fingers close to the eyes. We do push against the face, something not legal in judo competition. I never intended to say we broke arms or pushed joints to far. What I was trying to convey was that we punch each other, no pads. We lock more than just the elbow. We lock and throw but most importantly we do have some kind of rules we follow for safety. You people on this Internet crack me up. Everything is black and white NO GREY! BECAUSE I SAY I DON'T LIKE THE RULES IN COMPETITION JUDO you read,"I don't like any rules under any circumstances" I never alluded to that and I never said that. What I said is I don't like the rules in competition judo. I have fought under different sets of rules all my life. The ones that are more” realistic" are those of mma or of sport jujutsu (like the us jujitsu federation) an organization I am thinking of joining because of the rules of competition. Hell I have been thinking about competing again under this venue. Judos ijf rule structure, I believe is what is holding judo back in the U.S. and as sport judoka train mostly for shiai, and what is allowed in shiai; they develop a certain condition reflex that is dangerous if they think these are the street techniques. My original post some months ago had to do with fighting like you train. You all read into it that I was anti judo and I don't believe in rules. All I meant was a karate fighter in a real fight wont throw. even if he knows how to because he mostly trains in striking techs. And a sport judoka wont punch, he tries and looks for a throw because that is how he trains. I only advocate cross training. The karateka should learn to throw even though this is usually outside his system. But we has judoka don't have to go outside our system to strike. It is there. We have atemi waza. Most judoka never learn it though because of the emphasis on sport. Here is where my problem lies.

As for your comment about me bouncing. I never saw a fight go to the ground. There usually were 2 drunk guys or an irate /jealous boyfriend swing wildly at another guy swinging wildly back at him. Because of my jujutsu background (my style is very aikido like) I never had to punch I used my karate blocks and just locked wrists and elbows and shoulders. We were told if we struck anybody we could be sued or arrested.

Now do we understand my position? In summary I understand rules, I favor some types of rules, I don't like ijf rules, I do believe in competition and I believe martial arts should be taught as fighting systems/self defense systems with a sporting aspect to them as a training tool. Not sports first and never learn the self-defense and/or kata techniques. And my definition of all out training is only encompassing strikes, kicks all locks and throw mixed in with randori. Look up the rules for competition on www.usjujitsu.net these are the rules I believe judo should encompass even if judo doesn’t want to incorporate the striking parts.

Kit LeBlanc
11th February 2002, 02:58
Didn't delete in time.... That's okay. Richard, nothing personal. In general we agree, yer right.

BTW, have you seen the new "traditional jujutsu" sport in Japan? You can punch, kick, throw, and grapple. They are trying to get it into the Olympics, apparently. There is an article about it in the new "Fightsport" MMA mag published by Black Belt. Probably right up your alley.


11th February 2002, 04:23
yes i did kit, that is with www.usjujitsu.net i have been thinking about joining that organization. i would like to compete in something like that. maybe in a masters class division. i am 38 now and i don't need to be stomped by some 25 year old oylimpic hopeful.:cry:

Kit LeBlanc
11th February 2002, 16:21
I hear ya. I think we convince ourselves that others are not hearing their perspective, when they are, they just think differently. You and I have experiences that are quite different, but along the same lines. I do think we are at odds over details more than anything major. Pardon me my frustration, I seem to be saying the same things over and over.

Those of you interested in this line of discussion might want to visit the aikijujutsu forum and view the thread on sparring...

I just can't seem to convince the aikijujutsuka that training in Judo and submission grappling is BETTER :D

12th February 2002, 05:53
Everyone in that org. is an Olympic hopeful. You may like rules a little better than those of the IJF but there are still limits, rules, and control to contend with.

I agree with Kit, though. Most here know what you mean, but there is always another side to it. Everyone repeats themselves. There is usually a limit on new information. Isn't that the reason that some people stop posting for relatively long periods?

BTW: I'm not sure what the age minimum there is for their masters events, but Vince Tamura quit the judo masters event after seventeen years as champion. Reason? There was no competition. He is in his seventies and was when he retired from competition not too long ago.

I would be worried about those guys not the young ones who are just hopeful.;)


Ben Reinhardt
16th February 2002, 14:52
MarkF wrote:"BTW: I'm not sure what the age minimum there is for their masters events, but Vince Tamura quit the judo masters event after seventeen years as champion. "

The official age limit for masters is (in the USA at least) is 30 years old, minimum. I've seen divisions for 70 year olds at Senior Nationals.

I watched Vince Tamura compete one year. He just threw everybody with Uchi Mata for Ippon.

Ben Reinhardt

23rd February 2002, 00:07
Hi all.

I think there's a couple of problems with some arguments here. One is that a lot of people are assuming that what they know of as "traditional jujutsu" (tjj) is what they have seen in the States so far. Koryu jj is a real mixed bag, with any given schools being vastly different. You can't really make any generalization about all of koryu jj. Put a demo of, say Yagyu Shingan ryu next to Araki ryu, next to Takeuchi-ryu, next to Hontai Yoshin ryu, and you'd wonder if these arts came from the same country. I will also hazard that, depending on both the style and the exponent, they will display different levels of "practicality."

Per the fact that they do mostly kata, that's a historical development due to the popularity of Kano's Kodokan judo. From what I understand, koryu jj and kenjutsu schools had their forms of free sparring until modern kendo and judo became popular. The techniques of Kodokan judo were adopted from many koryu schools as the most effective in that kind of shiai. And many Japanese koryu guys were pretty practical. If it works, use it. So a lot of them switched to Kodokan judo, or became ranked in both judo and kept their own styles. For the sake of expediency, then, they decided to train in judo for competition, and keep the koryu styles as a matter of tradition and self-defense. Over the years, that trend in many schools evolved, so now you have either koryu or Kodokan judo.

I did judo for some 15 years before I got involved in jujutsu. It has served me in good stead. There is nothing like good, hard randori to develop what Ellis Amdur, in another thread, notes as a kind of "catch-as-can" attitude, of techniques flowing together in an unpredictable, unexpected environment. But for me, I had to face the fact that I was getting older (I'm now 47), can't practice as much as I want, and had to stop hard randori or I'd really wreck a shoulder already prone to bursitis, and aggravate other old injuries. So I do jujutsu. It's not as intense, granted, but it has its place. Kata geiko allows you to train longer without getting so busted up. That's a definite plus the older I get. But there's no getting around the skills and reactions I picked up in judo randori.

There's a place for each training method. Not all of us can compete on a strenuous, competitive level. Heck, I found that out when I was finishing college and had the chance to be a training dummy for the '76 US judo Olympic team. These guys threw me around like I was a straw bag, and I realized that if they ever got their hands on anybody in a fight, they could do major damage without knowing any "self-defense." Never mind that I knew some aikido and karate. Their throws were pretty devastating. One sensei demonstrated osoto gari on me, and he had to pile three gymnastics tumbling mats on top of the tatami before he threw me on them at "half speed." I still felt like I almost got knocked out by this half-speed throw. I can imagine if he threw someone at full force on concrete, that guy would NOT be getting up soon.

Yet there's much to be said for kata training. I've got too many anecdotes running in my head to note the effectiveness of good kata training. If one had all the time in the world and all the motivation, I'd say one should train in both kata and randori style arts, and cross train like hell, but then again, most of us don't have that kind of time, so we pick what we can and do what we can.

It must also be noted that yes, in his later years, Draeger did make some comments regarding koryu being better than sport. I think, from talking to him those long years ago, he had serious misgivings about the way sport judo and kendo were developing, because even then they had begun to forget the whole raison d'etre (sp?) of their roots. Yet Draeger himself was a very good, tough judo person. I think he loved the art, he just was badly disappointed in the direction it had taken, and he was, I think, also bitter at the political infighting that was going on at that time.

Sports has its place. But all too often, politics and other things get in the way of sportsmanship and reins its ugly head. The Winter Olympics is a good example, what with all of its controversies. Anyway, just my two cents' worth.

Wayne Muromoto

23rd February 2002, 09:00
Geez, Wayne, with all your experience, what I've read in the mags, articles written by a wise, old man, I took it for granted that you were older than me. I've got to stop making assumptions like that.:eek:

Thanks for dropping by.



PS: I think what people forget about judo, is that judo is just fine, it IS the politicos, rules of shiai which people attach to judo as somehow "watering it down." That is a decision we make, to follow the rule of shiai or not. They are certainly not written in stone, but those basics we all learned were either for randori or not, have its place in controlling every day injury we would otherwise not be able to abide in day to day keiko. Not many are very happy with all the rules in major events, myself included, but again, no one's arm is being twisted, the rules are voluntary. One would probably do much better by following the original style's rule; the Kodokan.

23rd February 2002, 13:15
I have an 8 year he has been doing Karate for about a year and a half. I was kind of worried about him. He has a timid personality, he sure don't take after his mother. :laugh: I thought maybe it was because the old man was too hard on him. I would catch myself being harder on him than the other his level. Several months ago I sent him to a friends dojo to train there. He seemed to enjoy being out from under the old man but he was still timid. He asked me about Judo 2 or 3 months ago so we went to check out a Judo class and he loved it and has practicing ever since. I saw him kumite in his karate class this week and it didn't look like the same boy. He has really come out of his shell. Maybe it was just part of his natural psychological progression but I think the Judo classes has had a lot to do with it. Judo randori he gets to go hard in a safe way. I think this has fostered a healthy agressiveness. At his stage in his karate studies, just to go harder on him ,I think would have just beat him down further and would have made things worse. To lighten up on him may have rewarded his timidity. I don't know I'm not a psychologist I write software. I think Judo with its rules is great for kids.

26th February 2002, 01:13

There ARE days when I feel like an old man. Like last week, when I couldn't even sit in seiza for tea ceremony and iai because my right leg got overworked and tight. I did some weights, ran, and then thought a good stiff hike would take out the kinks. Nope. It only got worse. But I'm only in my 40s. Luckily, my leg seems to have worked itself out after a nice swim in Waikiki (I know, it's really HARD living in Hawaii) and a good snooze on the beach on a cool day in the 70s F).

I agree with you totally on the need to separate judo as an art with the politics of judo.

As for the other post, I really think that judo, if taught well, is an excellent budo for kids, perhaps more so for a lot of kids who can't quite get into the hang of karate. (I've done both, so I don't think I'm overly prejudiced one way or another.) They can really work out their nervous energies, tumble around without much injury to them or their partners, and learn a lot of skills that will go with them forever. Learning to take a good breakfall is one of the most invaluable skills I've acquired when I was a kid doing judo.

I once had a kid who was a shy, timid boy. He was a good kid, but was very sensitive and was always getting picked on in the playground because of his sensitivity; his father was an artist, and he took piano and ballet lessons. Jujutsu kata didn't really help until I told him, look, you are going to have to learn how to really tumble no matter how anybody throws you, so I took him and for a whole month, I just threw him around, judo style, with foot sweeps and simple throws, and let him try to throw me in between. At first, he was close to tears. Then he realized he wasn't getting hurt no matter how he was thrown, and then he developed a lot of self confidence when he realized that he could roll and get up easily from any throw I did on him (and I let him throw me a couple of times too). From there, he progressed in jujutsu kata rapidly. He also grew incredibly fast into a young teenager; tall, handsome, and all the girls like him now because he's sensitive AND athletic. He doesn't train because he's busy teaching ballet and tap, and doing band and probably dating girls, but he's turned into well balanced young man. And that's all I can ask of any of my students. That they become well-balanced citizens.


26th February 2002, 08:18
I agree with you, and I only have you by a few years.;)

I've heard more than a few times from those who do a koryu or practice as in that manner: "During attack drills, my judo comes out." That is a quote from one person, but I've heard the same thing from many, with a slightly different spin on it.


R Erman
10th March 2002, 05:18
I know this thread has been idle for a while, so I thought I'd kick some life into it.

I think that Judo and Jujutsu are oppossite sides of the same coin.

I'm probably rehashing what Kit referenced to on the AJJ sparring thread, but ANY resistance grappling is going to do nothing but improve your ability to apply jujutsu. And jujutsu kata can give you alot of nasty ideas that you might not have thought about in a sport grappling system(be aware that I said might).

Ellis Amdur has said that samurai skilled in koryu jujutsu often practiced sumo, probably for the resistance aspect. I think judo can fill that same role for many nowadays.

In fact I think judo is a better compliment because of the similar operating systems, and in some cases identical waza(duh, where did judo come from?).

Myself, my peers, and my students all practice judo-like randori to improve our skills. This is similar to taryu jiai, which is sadly defunct amongst most "traditional" jujutsu schools, although many are rediscovering it due to things like the UFC(Try as you might it is hard to argue against that paradigm).

I, like many, don't like many of the rules in sport judo, but I absolutely love alot of non-sport judo, sambo, BJJ...etc. In fact, a friend of mine studies with a gentleman named Marc McFann who lives a couple of hours away from me, his grappling skills are legendary in the JKD community, and I've come to appreciate much of what he does, and how he teaches it, and instead of editing this I'm going to go on and on with this run-on sentence, because although I majored in English in college I have to try to act like a hillbilly every once and awhile, afterall I live in Missouri;)

Anyway, don't discredit Judo because of its sporting rules, it's birthed some of the most efficient modern H2H systems in the world, and it's done so because of its constant pressure-tested formula(with or without its uke-friendly techniques).

12th March 2002, 04:22
Didn't you know? There is a current championship right now, right here, on E-budo and run on sentences. For now, you are the judo forum champ:eek:


26th March 2002, 07:41
Today Hayashi-sensei tought one of the children's classes some goshin-wazas: several atemi, a wristlock, throat grabs, eye-gouging, and a few applications of everyday techniques like juji-gatame and harai-goshi. Most of this was done from a situational perspective. Thankfully he encouraged them to run away or avoid trouble.

He calls it "old judo"--it's what he was taught before the war. It isn't "jujitsu" or anything else. Why should it have another name just because it's forbidden in free practice? Those forbidden techniques are still a part of Judo; they weren't dropped from study.

Status as a randori-waza (qua itself) doesn't mean a technique is any less effective as defense. We're all taught nasty variants on harai-goshi, o soto gari, etc., but the unmodified versions can be just as bad if followed by armlocks or done on hard surfaces. Imagine your head after being thrown with a good morote gari without a mat. Ouch!

Just a few thoughts from somebody low on the food chain,
Ben Kalafut

3rd April 2002, 10:41
Hi, Ben,
Those are good points. The basics still reside in advanced techniques. Since children learn more quickly, it is a good idea to learn the basics early on. Goshin jutsu was the first kata I learned, though, at twelve years old, most of the young'ns didn't know that it was "kata." Since it was taught in parts, leaving out the mostly ceremonial areas, it was quickly assimilated. It was also there I learned technique I would later learn wasn't practical; blocks and the follow ups sometimes took too long even at full speed.

After a while, one learns what is effective for them (tokui-waza) and Goshin Jutsu becomes a growing system instead of a stale kata. Trim away the top, and it grows outward with variations on a theme.


4th April 2002, 11:03
KWA-THUMP!(Vengel does a rusty rear ukemi onto the tatami of the judo forum dojo), Ouch!Damnn!Next time I'll remember to look at my obi when I do that.Hi Mark!:D

Thought I'd drop in here, haven't been by for a bit, and post one on this thread.

I like Judo, I surely do, have I mentioned that?'N' it sure does work for self defense, and I, my relatives who practiced, and many an acquaintace judoka, all have numerous anecdotes of the dsays when all we knew was Judo, and used it to defend selves.

Three of mine, which all agree with what people say, judo comes out in emergency:Three times I took nasty and unexpected falls, and side and rear breakfalls happened well enough to save me broken bones and head.

Now, maybe that isn't what some call self defense, But I sure do, and karate , kenpo or whatever else, did not teach me those breakfalls, judo did.

And they worked.Anyone remember the teacher sayiong, you can take a breakfall onto five feet drop, and land on concrete, no harm? Well, I didn't plan to test this, but did so one time, when I fell in a darkened warehouse I was doing security for, into a truck ramp I forgot was there.Hit fine, but did get whiplash, no brken bones, Had my head been tucked a little better, no whiplash, but I really didn't plan on falling that far and didn't know where I was in relation to the floor.

I gotta tell you, judo did its part to save my life that day, and on two other occasions when my feet went out from under me on ice.Ice under gravel I didn't see, I might add, side breakfall both times, no damge whatever except stung palm from the slap.

So, I call that self defense, and thanks to Judo, I'm still around to say so.What other art gives you that kind of training in falling? I don't mean teaches ukemi, many arts do, but gives you that much real practice in doing it when you unexpectedly and suddenly get turned end for end in midair?Randori, training for faling.Kata, form of falling correctly, see how these two go together?First waza orf true Goshinjutsu and I learnt that kata same way you did, Mark, piece here, piece there, but first true waza of goshinjutsu, is ukemi, says John.:-)

What else my teachers told me, long ago, in Judo:'You may never get in a fight in your life, but you will sooner or later take a fall."

That happened as they said.

'Judo starts with falling and ends with striking, karate starts with striking and ends with falling;learn karate and judo and you'll cover the whole spectrum, or master one, and get both.Best way, take both.Then you get judo, karate, and what's between them.'

'The more you know about fighting, the more you know what could go wrong.'Truer words were never spoken.

And finally, Robert Smith may have said it first, 'Judo teaches you to run, but to run with confidence.'Our workouts were remarkably aerobic, for certain, three hours long normallly and sometimes longer.Ah, the old days.

Kata and randori are not in opposition, but like two wheels of the old jinrikisha.The axle is the basics, taiso is maintenance, and the wheels carry the basics home.

Osu! AiiiiiYah!(Vengel does diving rollout back to the Karate and Ryukyuan Unarmed Forums) Splat! Whump!Dang it!:D

4th April 2002, 13:09
Hi, Robert,
Thanks for gracing our little "good budo" forum. I appreciate your comments.

It's silly to say my judo can beat your karate. Most have holes in them which make them weak in, at least, one area. Ukemi-waza isn't one of them, though. I've had students of aikido come mainly to learn the ukemi. Same is true with a goju ryu student I have, only he seems to be in it for the long haul, at least, so far.

Dr. Karl Koiwai calls judo "Combative Sport." I wouldn't argue with him. He is with the NGB of competitive judo of the IJF, USA Judo Inc. and has had a long life in judo, including the Kodokan, the US Black Belt Federation (USJF), and now the USJI. He's also written excellent paper on strangulation which are particularly interesting given that he is an MD.

I've no problem with that, that judo is a sport but I politely disagree with Robert's comments basically stating that one cannot separate one for the other. I think all out-randori/shiai does a great job in teaching one practically as well as competitively. It is the one venue in which one's basics can be tested at true speed and movement against an equally trained opponent. Putting attack drills into the mix helps a lot, too.

Ukemi (should really be taught as a strict kata as well as, as needed) is the one area in which there is no argument. Everyone falls occasionaly (although training should make falling a less frequent affair, as balance is important no matter what you do) and it is similar to the Carole King Song "The Earth moves under my feet..."

I think whether judo or karate, full-contact, all-out, at least occasionally, needs to be practiced in that manner. John, I picked up a few more moves from the tensho kata and now am able to retain enough to practice and introduce it to my classes. I love the misdirection of a punch/stab from the attacker, block, palm heel or wrist to the head/face, then down to the family jewels, up with the "wrist punch" to the chin then has me in perfect placement to throw, joint lock, or simply grabbing the arm and hyperextending his elbow with a big "crack" over my shoulder, at least it has me in a position which feels natural to finishing, to do what I do to finish it. It reminds me of those little corrections when you are a beginner, that has you slapping your head because the correction was too easy to be there and not realize it. That was one I got in my hotel room last month.

It isn't easy by any means, to learn, but I can actually practice alone to get it up to speed. When it comes together, well, It's nice.

BTW, John, but it seems people over in the karate forum are asking for you? I have no idea why, though.;)


PS: I've heard a lot of stories about the Donn and Jon show in the last two years, and he (Draeger) did comment on changes in the way judo was practiced, people who were treating it badly (in particular, he commented on one case, Phil Porter). But judo itself hasn't changed, but I would think he was in a particlarly good spot to note any changes in the way it is done, politics of judo in Japan, included.

I've spoken to people who were doing judo before WWII and they say "It just wasn't the same" after the war (to be fair, these are people who had been relocated so have a particularly special view of it here).

hector gomez
4th April 2002, 17:27
Robert R. you quoted "you train sport you fight sport"then you
went on to state"you train real you fight real"I have to totaly
disagree with you robert every martial sport has it's rules I
grant you that, but it is really a cop out to state that martial
sports can not be transformed into a real encounter.

The best way to learn how to physically throw someone is thru
judo,wreslting,sambo etc all sport methods thru randori against a very
highly resisiting opponent,this is the most practical way to develop
how to throw someone the advances are trully made thru actual sports.

The best way to learn how to choke or armbar someone is thru sport methods of resisitence judo jujitsu,sambo against a live resisiting opponent sport science has done this again.

The science of punching and kicking is also done with the above methods of sport science,muaythai,kickboxing and some forms of karate.

The problem stems from looking at one particular sport and stating that because it does not allow you to do certain techniques it bears
no weight in the real world look at what the martial sports allows you
to do even if you have to jump from different martial sports to find
those realities .Besides nobody can possibly be practicing those deadly techniques that you advocate without maiming someone ,I doubt that you are practicing it in a real resistant enviorment because if you were you would be injuring someone so it bears no weight in my world.


ps: tell me what rules you practice with I will direct you to sport
guys that will play by those rules,then you let me know if they are just sport guys

hector gomez
4th April 2002, 19:21
There is no choking allowed in sambo before I get
corrected but my point is you can actualy find different
martial sports that allows you to use different weopons
under different formats in a full out resisting way
if your really interested,every thing else that is not allowed
in sport is not allowed to be practiced to it fullest intent under
a real practical scenario so unproven theory once again becomes king
in some peoples mind.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
4th April 2002, 20:37
Play it again Sam.:p Robert, I must admit I've never heard of a Zoohotsuka, but one thing I noticed is that there wasn't a Kyokushin guy there, or a Muay Thai guy there. Anyway, to make an assumption of an art or combat, one should make it after training with someone who is very good. Kyosho and Tuite are allowed in NHB fights exept for the vital areas. There's a little fight club called Pride over there, sport right? Put your theories to the test there and then you can make some generalizations. No one knows who that Brazillian is or what his qualifications are. He wouldn't be the first guy with a big mouth and nothing to back it up.

Manny Salazar;)
it's all good

hector gomez
4th April 2002, 21:41
ENJOY:wave: [URL=http://www.straightblastgym.com/street.html#street]

Hector Gomezhttp://www.straightblastgym.com/street.html#street

Goju Man
4th April 2002, 21:55
Well, we've been busy.:D Anyone who would like to be enlightened should get to know Matt Thornton. Be careful though, it's not for the feint.:D

Manny Salazar;)
it's all good

Goju Man
4th April 2002, 23:35
Yes I did agree with you Rousellot about that. What I don't agree with you is, and this is an old argument, that if you train doing kata, that's how you'll react. The more realistic you train, the more realistic you will react. It's the training part of your equation that I don't agree with.
Oh, but there was......I just didn't feel like writing down the bio on every memeber there. A professional boxer from Austalia shows up from time to time to..............
How many times did you whip it up on him?
I did say that I knew some people that did do BJJ and they are pretty good.....
Pretty good, but still sport right? Or I guess maybe you tapped them out a bunch of times too?

Manny Salazar;)
it's all good

Goju Man
4th April 2002, 23:48
Sorry about the spelling Rouselot. Do I have you confused with someone else, or have we not gone round and round about kata, tuite, kyosho and bunkai? Have you changed your philosophy? If you have, then I apologise.

Manny Salazar;)

Goju Man
5th April 2002, 01:28
Sorry again. You don't have to try and explain, I know very well where you are coming from. It just didn't seem that way. You did mention about a forearm technique that tapped out the Brazillian guy that is in kata. Robert Rousselot. Think I got it right.

Manny Salazar;)

5th April 2002, 12:54
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Sometimes ideas and concepts can't be put into word clear enough unless you are looking at the person and can see the nuance of what is said........which is a major drawback to these Bboards.

Agreed. I read it one way without considering your comment.

Concerning the proper spelling/usage of someone's name on the BBs. Names with any ethnicity are routinely misspelled, most not using the copy/paste programming to get it right. It is amazing what people can do with a name simply because it is three syllables or more. People need to consider that what they see is not always correct. I make it easy by signing with my first name, but some who address me as Mr. Feigenbaum have come up with some real lulus (or is it loo loo?);)


BTW: Following my own advice, I didn't rely on my memory of your surname, Robert, and copy/pasted it.

6th April 2002, 01:43
Hi, Mark. Tensho is a kata which is integrable into any art, Judo works well with it. Those close in moves are good for randori range and also for goshinjutsu or locking and sweeping range, intermediate as it is.As distinct from say, kicking range.though tensho blocks can scoop kicks.

As for the karate forum, looks like we all came on over here, doesn'nt it?Oh, well, open randori nite.:-)All judoka know what that is.:-)

Robert, I guess some folks don't wat to hear about any other way of doing things, I only wish we were all in the dojo, and could have an open exchange, then everyone would understand what is being explained.

The judo guys do understand though, since judo kata mean business, as do certain or all Okinawan type ones.Like judo, the kata show how a move is done, and then you need to apply it in kumite, prearranged , as in Judo uchiokomi, and then you do it in free style. People who say, 'you don't train those techniques for real, forgot about what you and I both said about Bogu, armor sparing, That stops deadly results while enabling foceful training as in Judo.

All the judoka also understand that techniques done unamred and unarmored with resisting partners do have to be done safely, but kata are done with partners resisting only as much as is safe, and techniques applied likewise. In a fight, of course, they could be done in a more realistic manner, say arm bars.

Hector and guys from the South Florida Alliance, Robert and I have practiced very similar things if not the same things, and I must tell you, it doesn't get any realer than that,without someone winding up injured or dead.And you are hitting steel with canvas coverings on your fists.Or without.If you can strike steel, you can strike flesh and bone.

It is a drawback of this BB and all such forums, that we aren't looking at each other doing techniques as we talk.

I notice there is always a reaction whenever some people say things about certain techniques or training. All I can say is, if you do kata, like we do kata, and kumite based on it, there would be no disgreement. Mark has mentioned tensho kata, and certainly Goju people know this one, is that not a realistic street self defense kata integrable into any fighting art? I have found it to be so, as I have done that one since 1976, not because part of a style I do, but because a useful series of movements.

Like in Judo, we too, learn kata based on techniques, done with resisting partners a piece at a time. That way, it is alive.

Kata is one wheel, kumite is the other, and basics are the axle that connects them.The more you sweat in kata and kihon, the less you bleed in kumite, is one of our sayings in the Okinawan Kenpo full contact sparring families of arts.They mean really bleed.Somnetimes, we do it without armor.Safer with.

Regards, rolling back into karate forum, aiiiiiiyoossss!Thump, smack roll standup a ha I knew I could still do it!:D

hector gomez
6th April 2002, 03:43
I really would like to put our minor differences behind us
and get along,The big problem that I see is exactly what RobertR. mentioned somewhere yesterday about people not being able to get their point across on the internet,I am guilty and I will be the first to admit it, that I get easily offended sometimes when people make a comment that might not be thoroughly explained and it becomes interpreted in a different light.

I cannot get on here and make a point blank statement "KATA SUCKS"because first of all I know many practicioners that do practice
kata and the traditional ways that I personaly know & respect as fighters and human beings ,by the same token you guys should realize
that there are some real quality martial artist(fighters)that have never trained kata one day in their life and fighting these people
on the streets with no rules is something I don't wish on my worst enemy ,there are many ways to skin a cat, people go about skinning a cat in a lot of different ways it is not right for me to get on here and state my way is the only way,because that would be naive on my part.

I have had the fortunate luck to train side by side with some credible world champions in the past in both the striking arts and the grappling arts and I can tell you from first hand experience in training with them that a)They don't practice kata B)they would be a total menace in any type of street confrontation,ofcourse nothing is guaranteed on the streets,but the point I am trying to make is just because a person decides to train with a different set of training ideals than yours does not make it wrong there definintely are many ways to skin a cat.

It would be totaly wrong to even slightly hint that some of these world champions would not be able to defend themselves in the street
because they practice a martial sport instead of a martial art.

It would also be wrong to assume that because they don't know a
certain kata it's meaning or bunkai that it would hinder them one
bit in a real situation without rules,because their strategy would
be a complete different story for starters they have mastered what I percieve to be the basics so well that to penetrate their defense
both standing as well as on the ground would be a difficult task and
one that would not leave anything for certain for any party.

I hope you guys understood what I tried to explain and hopefully you
did not interpret it in a wrong way I really meant no dissrespect just
remember there are other people out there that are training very serious with or without KATA for sport as well as for street.

Hector Gomez

8th April 2002, 07:48
Sure, Hector, no problem here with that-but what I guess I'm trying to get across is this:Those guys who do as you say, no Kata:But don't they practice the same Techniques as people who can really defend themselves who do practice kata, practice?

I mean, an armbar is an armbar, a forearm strike is a forearm strike, a punch is a punch whether you do it in kata, on a bag, or into an armored or unarmored oppoent with or without a glove, and a throw is still a throw?

Dawse fundamental things remain, the same, as time goes by.:D

No one is suggesting that world champion fighters, many of whom did do kata long ago, and some still do, and some do not, but the formal and limited definition of kata, not by the definition any judoka would use meaning the form of a technique,cannot defend themselves in the street. What I do suggest however, is that one need not be such as they, to also defend oneself in the street.

I realize full well there are bad dudes out there, I have known, trained with and met a great many.But as with Patrick Swayze in Road House, a cool movie, of course a fictional stroy but I used to be a bouncer too, I note that those who could take me, never seemed to want trouble and those who did, couldn't take me.After several years of training, that is, before that, dang near anyone coulda beaten me, and many did.That too, was experience.

What kata are, to me, are drills, wherein one practices many variations on a theme or themes, in a safe manner like a flight simulator for a fighter pilot.If you screw up in kata, you died on the street, but you are unhurt, and you know you need to improve, no cost there.'Cept maybe some pride or ego.

If you screw up sparring, especially in gear, then you find out a little more realistically what you did wrong, which is why I advocate both.

Then, if you do well in kata, well in kumite, prearranged then free style, you have an idea that maybe, maybe, you could defend yourself.

But if you do judo kata right, with resistance from opponent, and kumite with armor, or equipment training , and controlled sparring, you find out pretty much how you would fare out in real defense, as do fighter pilots when they do mock combat excercises.

No one would suggest however, that swordsman duel each other for real with live blades, today, or the fighter pilots go at each other with live ammo.

We call ourselves warriors, fighters, and martial artists, but we are not , any of us, except law enforcement and military people.

Plato suggested martial arts was not merely wrestling, boxing or pankration( Greek No holds barred combat that the UFC was really based on)-he called those gymnastics and the basis of children't phys ed training for later life as a soldier.

What he called martial arts was to put on about four hundred pounds of chain mail, then plate armor over that, then a heavy shield, and then a barttle ax slung behind, a heavy sword at the side, and a spear in hand, and then Run, miles, up hill and down, in all this, and then get to the field of play, as this was to be done every month,thus the term 'field day', and have a mock battle with somewhat dangerous but not totally real weapons.

he suggested that if some friends killed each other accidentally during this training, it was good for the community, and they would die bravely, no blame.

Now, That was martial arts.Any world champions want to strap on the chain mail, put on the plate armor, load up with weapons, run a marathon so weighted in summer heat, and then fight it out, one on one, two on two and ten on ten, as they did two thousand four hundred years ago?

Or is that maybe a little too real?Seriously, where the heck are we going with all this reality stuff?

I tell you something;no world champ living today would be able to do that, or want to.Tell you another thing, too, imho:A barehand fighter has no chance, zip, against such a warrior as that,and even barehanded, any of those guys who mastered wrestling, boxing, and pankration by age fifteen, would be able by age forty to clobber and one you want to name today.They would just be too strong, too powerful, too unstoppable.

These guys, hoplites or heavy infantry, would shame the gladiators, the light-armed.The gladiators would kill anyone today.They , Hoplites or hevy Infantry,broke up cavalry and armored chariot charges on foot, if you don't believe me read Anabasis by Xenophon, 'March Up The Country ' it means, they actually did all that. To them, full contact wrestling, boxing and pankration, were play when they were resting in between actual battles. By the way, they all, every one of them, did katas, called martial dances, both unarmed and unarmeored, and armed in full armor with weapons.Why did they bother doing katas, which they considered actual martial training for combat?

Why with all the other stuff they did, did kata become that important? Because it imitated the movements done in battle, for real, according to Plato, and was therefore considered a great training method.

Also, Xenophon's guys, had some of the hostile army's people over to parley, and treated them to a display of the camps warriors doing katas, even some women and children doing them, armed and in armor.The tribal chiefs asked why they all did their martial dances in armor and with weapons, and they replied, did the Spartans, that they like doing thewm this way.:D

The hostile tribe never attacked,although others did others did later who hadn't seen that.Those others got chewed up pretty bad, too, though some did cause some deaths among the Ten Thousand, Xenophon';s mercenary Spartan army.The fact is, in cultures like Indonesia where fights occur all the time betwen martial artists, and to the death, with and without weapons, the first thing people do is ask the other to do a juru or kata.If they see from the kata that the person knows the combat applications, and I have been shown by a student of Inosanto's exactly what that means, they don't fight, since to fight is to risk death.Its a smart move.Bafgore we sparred, I'd ask to see some moves, maybe shadow boxing.If it looked too good, no contest.Sun Tzu says a good warrior picks his battles.Scout the other guys, is what that means.

In China too, this is known, if a person does a form with a sense of enemy, and realism, the other person will not spar them, unless they think they can do it better.I was once ridiculed on these forums for telling a true story about how, when some fellow security guards with me, saw me do a kata, they abandoned plans to rough me up a bit.On the spot, they changed their minds, they had not known I was a martial artist, and then they saw I was, with no fight needed.Kata is indeed, useful.I wasn't bragging, none of the other guys was more than green belt, and whenn they saw the kata, they realized as would I if I saw a world champ, they were oput of their league.Had they not seen it, one of them was gonna jump me, and I could have been hurt and so could he have been, both, and unnecessarily so. Now mmaybe this attitude is too much like not weasnting to get hurt-guess what, guys- I don't! That is why I took martial arts to begin with, I didn't want to get beaten up any further. Got beat up more in the arts than ever did before.:DWhat's up with that one?

I was then treated to a bunch of macho bs about how, 'down here, 'that would have gotten you a beating.'Guys I was in Chicago, and it didn't there.If I wanted to be macho too, I'd say, you want me, bring a gun.'But then someone probably would.:D

It is a true story, it happened, and when you do kata well, who wants to fight?By well, I mean what no one can see here on this BBS.If I see a good kata done, I don't need to spar someone to see how well they fight. The techniques are the same in both.If you see Muhammad Ali shadow box, that' should be enough for any sane person.In all modesty, my karate kata look pretty real, because they tend to be so.I do techniques one way, not three ways, one for basics, one for kata, one for kumite:they are all the same, way I do it.That comes from my teachersd, they were that way too.I know,others do it differently.

Back in the Day, before katas were well known here, yes I go back that far:D, we simply asked anyone claiming to do karate to show us their punch, and we would show ours. That usually stopped any need to try one another out. We might spar later for training, but it would be for all out real.

You can get hurt permanent that way, as punch drunk fighters abound and abundantly prove.

Why I like judo, is this: you can safely more or less, get out there and try it on, with little fear of permanent damage as long as you ukemi well and remember to tap when they getcha good.:DAccidents happ[en of course, but that's life.

With karate, it makes a lousy sport, and you can't really prove it.Closest I see it come to is Bogu Kumite, as when you kick a guy ten feet back or knock him six feet back, you can say you got a pretty good kick or punch or strike or whatever.So, to me, Bogu Kumite is the reality fighting for karate, unless you happen to look like Bluming, and while I am big, I ain't that big, and I ain't that good, either.But ask Mark F, he trains under the Big Man himself.
Mark has a death wish, says me.:D

If as Bluming was gunning for me, gunning would have to be the appropriate word, because him, I am not fighting barehanded.Or any other way.He'd have to shoot me from a far distance away.:DThe simple fact of the matter is, most of us merely human beings, no amount of training will enable us to fight some one like Dawse Beast from Ansterdam..Not and live to fight another day.

Fortunately, I don't fight much these days, don't see much point to it, I proved about everything I ever wanted to, long ago, and to more skilled people than I ever though I would have to, either.I've had it on with boxers, collegiate wrestling champs, national point and full contact karate champs(USKA) and world Yudo Champs(Korean_ and many another, and they beat me, most of them, or I drew them, a few. a very few, of them, and that itself showed me the value of kata training, because for years on end that is all I did, and when I came back to dojos, I was better from it.Much, much better, and those champs even remarked on this.Hell, I even scored some on them, though they won mostly, I did beat the boxer and the wrestler, I drew.Others klobbered me.But they like sparring me, said I was a challenge.But agains, I never expected to be anywhere near that good, and I'm not.Most human beings are not, anymore than most of us wil ever play for the NFL or the NBA.

I can shoot pretty good hoops, btw, and I can actually jump, too-but I ain't never gonna be Michael Jordan and I never ever was.Most people are not and can not.

Yes I played some football, tackle and full contact and all, but not at college level and not at NFL reamls of existence,and if I tried, I'd die.Im sure they would be sorry about it, but dead would I be, and if fighting Jon Blumin, for real(Hah!) the same thing would result.

My summation is this:Kata can make you better than you were, all by itself, but then you must find out in practice how good that is. Other methods also can improve you.It has never been scientifically tested which methods alone would work better, and I generally use both these days;so, we do not really know about this subject. All I know is the ancient warriors of Greece and India used kata, a lot.

With other methods to be sure.But they could do what no man today would sanely or safely try to do.I guess no one told them they couldn't.'Tell the Spartans at Thermopylae, that here obedient to their law, we lie.''Salutamus Te Morituri.-Gladiator language for we're gonna kick your:D )Actually, it means something else entirely than that.

Finally,I rest mmy case on this:kata is a training method used by those mighty warriors of old, that has survived into this day.There is a reason it has.Those who have focussed on it, know the reason, and those who reject it, may not, but Judo still has them too.And there is a reason for this.

Regards and can we put this one away?

hector gomez
8th April 2002, 11:50
John.v funny that you mentioned blummings name in your
reply as you state your case for kata, which book or video
of blumming would you like me to send you where he totaly
dismisses kata as a practical tool for self defense.

I will respect your opinion on what you believe to be reality
in your world but in my world things just don't happen that way
as far ufc and N.H.B being called gymnastics and childrens phys ed
class for later life as a soldier, please don't tell me you believe this "that is insane".

bogu gear is not the only or most realistic way to train for combat
it's just another way one can train that's all,I think one needs to
get out of their protective confines and experiment other ways of
training with competent participants of the MMA world if after you
do that extensively with quality representatives you still feel the
same way about how important kata is by all means.

Going by your last post I know were are worlds apart when it comes to analyzing combat I do not relate it at all to the spartan days with shields and heavy swords I just don't ,different life time ,different principals,different strategies,different reasons for fighting about the only thing I can probably want to emulate is the fighting spirit of those days.

Hector Gomez

9th April 2002, 06:46
Bluming has a judoka's view of kata, so do I.Kata is the repository of the techniques of an oriental unarmed fighting art. If you are, as Bluming is, a master of all the techniques contained in all the kata of judo or karate, , you don't need to do kata as such;but you do need the techniques.

You missed my points entirely,. as your friends also have.I shall briefly clarify one more time:Kata contain the techniques of Judo and Karate.The two arts have hundreds of waza, and they need kata to retain all of them in a practicable form that can be passed down for generations.

Now, it is true, we have CD-ROM and videos and other things, but still , if you try to practice a hundred basics, you won't have time left for living.You do ten kata, you do a hundred basics, and practice your favorite waza for a couple hours, still got time for life.

Some of you guys, got a fixation that kata is obsolete. I tell you this-if not for kata, karate becomes kickboxing in maybe two, maybe one generation, and judo becomes a sport only with limited number of actually used techniques.With kata, they retain flexibilty neded to evolve.

Jon Bluming is Tenth Dan in Kyokushinkai Karate, learned all the kata, got good at them, never liked them. Why not? Because he was already sixth dan Judo, already champion, liked to fight, knew judo kata and all waza.

Now, truth to tell, I look at karate through Judo eyes, always have, and have said so on karate forum in an article that could be called 'it's all Judo' and which Mark, here, has copied with my permission.

Here's a briedf summation: It has to follow sound body dynamics, be effective, and work for you under stress and with resisting opponents.

I've trained with gloves, without them, contact sparring armored and unamrmored, and randori, plus prearranged kumite, point fighting and limited contact, mix the arts, matwork, you name it, I've done it, and I like kata training, but not without applications training.

Kata shows the technical repertory, applications training shows how to apply it, sparring allows a limited application and simulation of combat, and self defense training is what will work for you in a real deal most times.What world do I live in? The real one.

Since you don't know me, you can say what you want, but when I do stuff, it works for me and on most people. That's the judo thing again-you research and experiment with techniques and variations until you find the ones that work for you on most people most times, and you keep those which do.But the kata, od Judoi and of Okinawan karate, are the reservoirs of pure technique from which you can draw and create variations as needed to supplement the three ofor four actual tokui waza you would normally use for mosat situations.Never know when you might need one.

I respect your right to your opinion, and I won't say that anything you say is unworkable,I am sure its not, but don't be so quick to think other people don't know what they are doing either.

Also, and on another forum, I brought up the experience of psychological deterrent in self defense, and was subjected by the gang , of the SFA, to general ridicule.Yet it is true, and it can work.You wouldn't face a gang of bangers with that, but then, they generally carry firearms and jump on a person all at once.No art I know of will stop that, so this realism stuff I hear, is sometimes sounding to me, like tournament fighting equals street self defense, and it does not necessarily.

A person who can take anyone in the world, straight up, unarmed, hand to hand, with adequate warning, goes down before some geeks sucker punch, it happens all the time.Awareness, psychological warfare, other deterrents, are equally as important as technique.Also, barehand against a knife is very hard, against a gun is impossible at a longer distance especially.Close in, you might have to go for it, but what a situation.

So, realism, what are we talking about here?Dueling in a parking lot?That is a fistfight, not self defense.

Here's self defense as I see it:To be on record with this:You take all reasonable and necessary precautions including prayer, locking your doors and windows, defensive driving,
staying where you belong,and awareness and perception, evaluation and response, ,.learn about the adrenalin dump, the OODA tunnel effect, the Oh Shite Moments, and distance, angles, interception(parying and redirecting) evasion(footwrok) and unbalancing(kuzushi), and then you learn waza, train it solo and with partners, on equipment, add necessary physical training, and then you put the pieces together in kata form and train it regularly to maintain and increase defensive skills.

Then if all this fails you and someone in an unguarded moment is right in your face, up on you, to the sides or rear or wherever and you survive somehow the initial attack, self defense consists in getting them off you so you can get away alive, or if not, dealing with the attacker such that they will be unable to continue.

Kata is simply a compilation or compilations of such defensive methods and skills that have been tried and tested for real, many times, put together and pased on.However, ninety percent or more karate people in the world do not train in, understand or apply kata corectly, merely because it has not been understood in effective manners by most of them.

Kata by this definition implies also the repertory of all techniques in a sport or art.

That's all.

9th April 2002, 12:29
Originally posted by kusanku
So, to me, Bogu Kumite is the reality fighting for karate, unless you happen to look like Bluming, and while I am big, I ain't that big, and I ain't that good, either.But ask Mark F, he trains under the Big Man himself.
Mark has a death wish, says me.

Yeah, that would be true, but in reality, I come home with the same bruises I used to when I cross-trained. It wasn't so much crosstraining as it was "Let's see what you've got and I'll show you mine."

I think I'm too old for it, but then you watch a guy like Bluming who, as soon as he mounts the mat, all the pain seems to leave him. He just likes it too much to quit. He will lay on the mat, and others will get into his guard and he beats them all, and he just waits for the next guy. He's a 9-dan in judo now, and is still well-known and respected at the Kodokan. He's one of the few who can come into the randori room wearing a red belt, and while some give him funny looks, the guys he knows say: "Where the hell have you been? We thought you were dead."


Goju Man
9th April 2002, 21:26
Hey John. Been down for a couple of days. Where can I find the site or book YOU have on Blumming? Everything I've ever seen or heard from Blumming is EXACTLY the oposite. Are you stating veryfiable facts or YOUR own point of view. If Blumming is such a beleiver of kata, he would then probably be a lousy instructor for not wanting to pass these SECRET DEADLY fighting techniques on in his organization. If been to some Kyokushin events and I got to tell you, the mens kata division is always full.:laugh:
Bogu gear questions:

Do you wear hand protection?
Do you wear head protection?
Do you practise joint locks or throwing techniques?
If you do, how is the follow up or does it get stopped?
Do you practise kyosho or tuite?
From what I've seen and read on the forum, the answers are yes, yes, no,na,no.

So you are basically striking yes? Well, let me tell you that this little playground game does not have head gaurds, it does have small gloves, does allow joint locks and throws, does allow follow ups until ko or submission, DOES allow tuite AND kyosho with the exeption of vital area, (which you don't hit in bogu ANYWAY). So you say that bogu is reality and nhb isn't. WOW! Seems to me you need to re-evaluate the term REAL. But then again, as my Psycology teacher used to say, reality is relative to YOUR own pov. I think yours is FACTUALLY very different from mine.

Goju Man
9th April 2002, 23:24
“What I teach,” says Bluming, “is neither Kodokan judo nor Kyokushin Kai karate but instead a mix of one-third karate and Thai boxing, one-third throwing techniques – I teach seven different throws – and one-third groundwork. That altogether is the full circle of unarmed fighting. That is not arrogant, that is the truth.”

Kusanku, what was this about Bumming teaching kata?

10th April 2002, 07:52
You guys, to be respectful here, need to read my posts a LOT better than you apparently do.You are not understanding the points I make.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goju Man
'Hey John. Been down for a couple of days. Where can I find the site or book YOU have on Blumming?'

You mean Bluming?

'Everything I've ever seen or heard from Blumming is EXACTLY the oposite. Are you stating veryfiable facts or YOUR own point of view.'

Blumin's site on the web. He learned and does not like Karate kata. But to learn Judo, at this level, you also learn judo kata,period.

'If Blumming is such a beleiver of kata, he would then probably be a lousy instructor for not wanting to pass these SECRET DEADLY fighting techniques on in his organization.'

He does pass them on, as underlying body dynamics and principles mechanical ones,of basics. They are only secret if you do not know them or understand them. You haven't been paying attention. You just want to make me look bad , and you think thereby you will look good. I am sorry for you.

I am sure what he means is this: people that think kata are secret deadly dances of doom, that will teach you techniques better than other techniques, without basics training, without equipment training, and without applications training, are wimps and worthless and no good.He is right, one hundred percent.'

' If been to some Kyokushin events and I got to tell you, the mens kata division is always full.:laugh:'

Like I said, he is right.

'Bogu gear questions:'

Robert sent you pictures of the gear we use.By we I mean all descendant styles of the Shigeru nakamura line.

'Do you wear hand protection?'

Sometimes yes, sometimses very minimal. canvas wraps, There are Kenpo gloves available now, but I never had any of those.

'Do you wear head protection?'

You bet. A steel Helmet wrapped in canvas and padded.Good head protection, and you need it too, because we hit kinda hard.:-)As many from other schools including Kyokushin have discovered.

'Do you practise joint locks or throwing techniques?'

Both, but nbot usually during bogu kumite,though takedowns and fighting from the ground are frequent. Joint locks are done in goshinjutsu or self defense training.Throws are done on a mat, because concrete is hard to land on. Bogu does not protect the rear of the head too well.In what we call shinken shobu kumite, done without armor at a slower speed, al waza are practiced, though some must be pulled.Personally, for grappling I do randori in Judo.

'If you do, how is the follow up or does it get stopped?'

In practice of joint techniques from kata, flow drils, two person , are utilized with xcontrol so no injuries occur.

In Bogu Kumite as I have known it, no one gets stopped , techniques are thrown as allowed, if you get knocked down you fight from the ground, if you get slammed into a wall they dfontinue hitting you until you blast them away or the ref decides its clear you've been beaten.Knoclkdowns and knockouts occur frequently, and people do get sometimes injured, however, the effect of the blows, as to kyusho, is avoided, ie you don't die, or get your arm broken.As far as the locking moves done in kumite, leg takedowns, arm takedows are allowed, but not hyperextensions because they break limbs, these are practiced with control in other training as said, just as in Judoi randori you usually don';t break a limb.

Certain techniques such as blindsiding, throwing hard to the floor, and breaking joints, are prohibited in bogu kumite, as we do not wish to kill or injure each other .

'Do you practise kyosho or tuite?'

Yes, I practice both kyusho jutsu and tuite jutsu and atemi jutsu. But I don't talk about these much.I don't post all I know on forums.These particular subjects are a bit sensitive, plus so many claim to know them while actually about three or four , maybe six people,plus many of the judoka hand jujitsuka and aiki ka, I count them not in the other, I mean the karate people, on this entire board, and one is Robert, one is Hank, and one is me, have a clue here.I don't claim mastery of these, either, but I do practice them. They are however, much too difficult for beginners.As are several other things I do, one of which is Taijiquan.And yes, I know how to use it in combat, as Victor d0oes, thats another guy knows what is what. There are also some others here who do.None of us say too much about it.This is because some irresponsible people might go out and try some of it and hurt themselves or someone else.

'From what I've seen and read on the forum, the answers are yes, yes, no,na,no.'

Well, you haven't seen or read enough, then, because we often did kumite with no armor, and so the answers are yes and no, yes and no,yes and no, yes, yes.

'So you are basically striking yes?'

I was a judo tournament competitor in the sixties and seventies, brown belt level, and victorious against anyone short of shodan and sometimes drew them, openweight level, Konan Yudanshakai, Bradfield Center Judo Club, Lima, Ohio, Senseis Henry Lyon Horne, Nidan, ex USAF Judo team, promoted at Kodokan, and Preston Pugh, Sandan, Okinawa.My basis was grappling, not striking, my specialty in Judo was ne waza or groundfighting, and I was described as extremely hard to escape from. My shiai trademark was acting like a standup thrower, and when the poppnent would try to drag me to the mat, I'd get there fiorst, lock him in kesa gatame, the basic hold down of judo, and embarrass the Heck out of him by not allowing them to escape for thirty seconds, thus winning the match.

'Well, let me tell you that this little playground game does not have head gaurds,'

People that fight hard without head protection can get killed by not wearing such. That is not a safe sport.A boxer in Japan just lost his life that way.If people know how to hit and punch properly, you could get killed.

'it does have small gloves,'

Good, small gloves are safer for the opoponent than bigger ones.
Less chance of inducing concussion.

'does allow joint locks'

Breaking or merely controlling? In advanced levels of Judo competition such as Olympic, oh, never mind.

'and throws,'

Throws are fine if there is a mat and ukemi is mastered.

'does allow follow ups until ko or submission,'

So does Kempo.

'DOES allow tuite'

My understasnding was that small circle joint locks, which are basically similar to tuite, are forbidden.At UFC at least.

'AND kyosho with the exeption of vital area,'

That is a nonsense statement, kyusho means vital points and that is what they are.If it ain't vital, it isn't kyusho.K Y U, not o S H O.
Jintai Kyusho, Vital Points of the Human body.

'(which you don't hit in bogu ANYWAY).'

That's right Manny, it is precisely that reason for which Bogu is worn, because if we really hit where we train to hit, without bogu, someone will get badly hurt or die.Bogu is to protect not against the power of a blow, but against the effect, such as, oh, death.

'So you say that bogu is reality and nhb isn't.'

That is what I say, yes, as NHB wouldnb't work on a pavement, you ain't going to the ground there.Also no kyusho( vital points ) allowed. In bogu you can hit them all day long, no danger there.Then when bogu comes off the targets can be struck in self defense.

' WOW! Seems to me you need to re-evaluate the term REAL.'

Seems to me you need to try bogu kumite before you say that. I've been on plenty of mats.

'But then again, as my Psycology teacher used to say, reality is relative to YOUR own pov.'

As witness yourself.

' I think yours is FACTUALLY very different from mine.'

I do too, but not in a way you would like. I am sure you and your friends are very tough.I am sure you have many effective techniques. We do too.We being some the people you been going after since you came here.It may sometime be possible for you guys to come to some bogu events, if some such can be arranged. Love to be there.Heck, for that maybe I'll even put on the gear again.You'd love it, we're those kata based wimps you like to talk down, and there can be no pain whatever in bogu, can there?Heh, heh.

I don't know exactly what rules we might have, I'll let you know when I do.I'm sure I can arrange invitations for all you and your friends to come and participate if you like.

I think, that if such a thing were being planned, you might even be the first ones to receive such.
Have a real nice day.

Goju Man
10th April 2002, 11:44
Nice reply, but again you missed the point. Actually, I think you got the point but wrote your responses to make it look differently. The point in a nutshell is this, EVERYTHING you do in bogu kumite, EVERYTHING, is allowed in reality based fighting and more. There is no other place in the world where you can implement more of your DEADLY fighting techniques than there, even much more than your bogu. Aikido, judo, jiujitsu, karate, it's all allowed there. So for you to call it it playground or whatever you did is simply REDICULOUS. So look MR. Swayze, I'm not impressed with your brown belt judo status, I think you should read the bio I posted, THAT'S impressive. Your brown belt and movie like stories ain't doin' it for me. Sorry.

10th April 2002, 11:50
kusanku... could you please use the quote option when posting, it's very hard to follow your posts..

hector gomez
10th April 2002, 15:56
John.V, no need to make any open challenges or come
out of retirement, remember the pen is mightier than sword, but in
my case with my terrible grammar I am not so sure.we have been debating katas worth and it's applications value for real combat for months now and we are definitely going around in circles.

John ,what I notice about these type of debates is this,when we get down to the nitty gritty of the argument all of the sudden katas definition takes on a whole new meaning, all of the sudden kata is in
everything we do from walking to moving to solo techniques that are
taken out of a prearranged kata set.This is not my personal argument
neither is it anyone that represents my point of view.

J. blumming states he does not believe or train in kata for a reason
and although I don't personally know him ,I am sure he is reffering to
the standard katas in both judo and karate the ones that cannot be altered for example from Karate,pasai,naihanchi,tensho,sanchin etc.from judo nage no kata,goshinjutsu,katame no kata,kime no kata etc.If you want to turn around and state that a single movement strike,kick or throw is a kata then there is no argument but kata to
me means a standard set that cannot be altered in sequence when practiced in any way shape or form. I am sure this is what Mr. Blumming does not believe in anymore, you either believe what the man stands for or you don't there is really no middle ground.

I will repeat myself again so there is no missunderstanding ,I don't
have anything against kata or practicioners that train in prearranged
set katas but to imply that this is the best or only way to learn
actual self defense skills is incorect,there is too much evidence
to prove otherwise.

The whole concept on atemi waza(vital strikes) pressure points that
cannot be trained in a sport format are one of the main issues for
the kata proponents and here is my take on this,it is not so much that
they don't exist or that they are not even allowed in sport competitions ,there is no argument there.My personal feeling is this, what is my percentage/ratio for being able to strike these areas consistently in a real situation,hell I don't know about you guys but Im having a hard time just making contact with any target much less when it is moving around and not being still.

Vital strikes,(atemi),vital areas,pressure points are definitely good to know as far as were you might want to target your intentions but in real fights most of the time they are hard to acurately hit ,therefore your training should consist of what is probably going to happen instead of what might happen.have you ever noticed when choking someone out in newaza how hard it is sometimes to find that cartoid artery on the neck and this is in a grappling situation were you have the guy already secured and tied up ,If it is hard sometimes under these circumstances imagin how much more difficult it is in striking when someone is moving around and not being stationary,you cannot put all you eggs into one basket.

This is the main reason why the gracie challenge has gotten so much
attention lately part of it was to debunk some of these so called myths ,I do not agree with their way of "in your face attitude"and
challenging different martial arts that is not budo ,but they have
opened the eyes of a lot of practicioners to certain realities in
combat.you either believe in santa clause or you don't

Hector Gomez

10th April 2002, 16:32
I cross trained in a couple of jujutsu schools at different times. One 20 years ago , a derivitive of Danzan Ryu, when I was a Judoka and one a little while back while which is basically fusion of all the Jujutsu this particular teacher has studied, ( 1 koryu system and a couple of recently created systems).

When both Jujutsu teachers said lets practice kata. What we did was pretty much just like Uchikomi, except we would always execute the throw (if it was a nage waza ) In Judo uchikomi we sometimes practice just fit ins then throw every n th time.

Is uchikomi is kata practice or a form of it? Everybody needs to practice uchikomi.

hector gomez
10th April 2002, 16:45
I agree Ed ,there are tons of cuban judokas that I personaly know that can fight effectively in judo but have never learned nage no kata or katame no kata or any set kata, they might practice various forms of uchikomi(not a traditional kata) ,the argument here is with the standard traditional katas that cannot be altered or changed in any way either in appearance or in sequence.do you have to now these
or practice them to become an effective fighter?

Hector Gomez

10th April 2002, 18:18
Cuban judoka don't learn the kata because they are in it to go as high as they can in competiton. It doesn't set them apart, but even one who has a tokui waza with a coach who thinks one may do better by making another waza the favored technique is why they do not learn the entire kata. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, as even a realistic enough situation should bare that out. On the other hand, John Cornish, a kata coach and champion in England believes all tokuiwaza will come by mastering the kata. He as a point.

Most coaches hammer home no more than 12 throws innd usually pick the best waza your tokui waza so seven is the average number of nage-waza you need in most shiai, but no one says some other waza you like to practice in randori won't present itself

Most katame waza are taught as they generally have the same percentages of being used in a given situation. Always practice all katame waza as you never know when you will be in a situation to use the waza.

As a more personal side note I seem to have started a "perfect grammar and spelling" dispute so what I suggest is that you go to the bottom of the posting page and take a look at the vBulletin tags and such. Click on the button for it and it will give you most answers people have in using the code. Anyone who felt it was wrong or directed at them concerning spelling and grammar, it isn't so, at least it isn't meant to be. John, you could use the tags for bold print for differentiating from the quotes to your answers, or learn the code for quoting. It isn't necessary to do so, but some indication with a little more unmph is always appreciated.

Hector's posts have improved in the technical nature so keep working on them.

Anyway, for all, nothing I say here is meant to be personal but sometimes it comes off that way so apologies all round.

Now, please ignore it, but try to make them easier to read. I taught English as a Second Language in Mexico for some years and I have forgotten the way students sometimes write. It wasn't only the English, either.;)

The discussion is working, especially since everyone for the World's and the Olympics train there. There must be some secret technique which only the best are privvy to.


hector gomez
10th April 2002, 19:23
Mark,have you ever wondered how wrestlers catergorize all
the possible movements that they have in wrestling?how about
kosen judo or bjj, how is it possible that they memorize all
of those moves without a set structure of katas.what about all the moves that are allowed in a M.M.A,boxing or muaythai format, how do they do it?

Hector Gomez

hector gomez
10th April 2002, 19:28
It is done thru sensitvity,feel,touch,and most important experience
in being able to move in a smooth transitional flow that can only be acquired thru training against a "LIVE" resisting opponent.

Hector Gomez

hector gomez
10th April 2002, 19:46
Wrestlers learn every move in their arsenal individualy and most
judokas do too,as a matter of fact you can learn every single judo
technique individualy and not in a kata set structure ,it is up to you
the individual, as to how much you want to put into each technique and how you can make them flow from one technique into the other.repetitions and uchikomi are not standarized katas in the traditional sense.

Hector Gomez
ps:As far as catergorizing ,you can catergorize every possible technique you want in a book or video if you want refference.

Goju Man
11th April 2002, 01:19
I've got to hurry and keep posting, Hector's karma is right there with mine!:D I too have trained with Jack Williams as well as many Cuban Judoka that got to this country. I also trained with Johnnie Hobales, who was an alternate in the games twice. With the exeption of Jack, none of them, to my knoledge exept maybe Charles, Hector, correct me if I'm wrong, know the kata. how could that be?:confused:
Do you mean that if they actually KNEW the kata, they would have won more medals? Even in the Karate world, one of the best fighters from my dojo, who competed in the Police Olympics, couln't do the most basic kata to save his life! Go figure.:confused:

hector gomez
11th April 2002, 03:16
Hey gojuman,since I probably can't post tommorrow and I kind of
know what question Im going to be hit with ,"how can you practice atemiwaza techniques safely without kata" question,I guess I should try to answer that now.

Entries and transitions are probably the two reasons why one should not practice techniques in a set pattern.pressure points and nerves will never change,studying the human anatomy along with learning which
part of your body does the most damage on these vital points is not a
bad idea.

but why, am I going to file&document the entries and transitions of the movements,If this is always getting improved upon and updated daily & yearly in combat,people are always finding new defensive strategies for those movements that with time always become obsolete.

A choke,and armbar,kick or a punch will usually always look the same
but,what will always evolve and progress in training is your entries
and transitions in movements which really become your own signature
trademark ,not someones signature from eons before.unfortunately that
method leaves no room for refinement,improvement or personal interpretation which is a very important part of evolving as a fighter.

ofcourse this is just my opinion.

Hector Gomez

11th April 2002, 09:34
I don't want to get in the way of your discussion, so I will only make a point concerning uchikomi. Mainly, uchikomi only includes kuzushi and tsukuri, but not kake, though with some throws, kake can't be avoided but one would still abort the throw before uke is thrown to the ground.

Judo kata contains a lot of things unnecessary to the actual waza so defining kata can be difficult. It can be said that uchikomi does indeed teach kata, but only in part.

Recently, for kata competition, the attention to the joseki has been minimalized.


PS: OK, I didn't stick to uchikomi so sue me.;)

11th April 2002, 13:08
Hi all!

This is from Draegers article "Judo Randori No Kata and Ju No Kata":

"When speaking of the prearranged nature of kata, I found something in Jigoro Kano’s technical notes which was a "bombshell" to me -- at least until I thought it out. I pass it on to you. How many times have you heard a Judoist say, "kata.....nah. Never use it for training. I’m a believer in uchikomi as the best way to learn a technique"? Here’s the "bombshell": In the founder’s mind, uchikomi is kata. Think about it. In uchikomi we have nothing more than a prearranged method of working with our uke. We repeat certain actions against his more-or-less cooperative self. We both know what is going to happen."

I really love this statment. With this in mind, everything we practise that is not randori, is actually Kata. Kata does not only mean the formal prearange (spelling?) stuff. If both tori and uke knows what is going to happen, then it's Kata...


11th April 2002, 13:10
Thanks Mark

hector gomez
11th April 2002, 13:27
Hey guys right on,If we are classifying uchikomi as
kata there is no argument from me ,because I can change
uchikomi either way &anyday to fit and acomodate my personal style&
technique it's the traditional prearranged katas that I can't change.

This was not the original debate,never has been,I guess we can't stay on the subject.oh well....

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
11th April 2002, 21:15
Well, first off we have to agree on the definition of KATA. The definition of kata has gone from traditional, pre arranged series of movements that was designed by the head of a given system and not to be altered. From that to going to the bathroom because we have pre determined we are going to do so. If we start to call uchikomi kata,
then why is it not named seoi nage kata ichi, seoi kata ni, and so on?
Then, we can say that if everything practised IS kata, I guess I have just been promoted to Master in Judo, all traditional jiujitsu, and now I can add Shorin Ryu, Shotokan, RyuKyu Kempo, etc. Why not? I don't need to anything else. Why is it that each ryu has its own kata performed THEIR way. It's very simple, for the sake of not losing face, admitting you are not correct, the definition of kata has been modified to fit the argument, so much so that certain individuals have claimed THEIR point of view and have attached Jon Blumming's name to it. When Jon Blumming has OPENLY spoken against ANY AND ALL forms of pre arranged formal kata, period. That is why we will never be able to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. It's funny that Judoka don't practise Sanchin kata, for it has been stated in THIS site that it has defenses against the mount.:D Your judo ne waza might improve.:laugh:

12th April 2002, 09:14
Jon Bluming's reason for his dislike of formal kata is simpler than that. He doesn't believe kata teaches a person how to fight so kata has only one other use which he doesn't like either. That one is a subject which comes up often, though not so much here in a judo forum. His other dislike is that of teaching kata to the exclusion of everything else. It doesn't apply simply to a manner of fighting and therefore it has only one purpose: To keep the students coming through the turnstyle.

Thee funny thing about it, is that he will tell you and show you where the first nage waza of judo came, and will tell you, or show you how it was done originally. IOW, he speaks of kata when speaking of judo. But in his way, he has broken it down to the basics again. use the simplest, most effective technique that works "for you."

That's his opinion, and I understand what he means. Many others have broached this subject as well who have a lot of time in practicing kata. All Bluming has done is pulled back the the fancy covers and shows what is needed for unarmed fighting, or what he calls "the full circle of budo."

I agree with the premise of maintaining a student base, but I don't agree about kata itself. Much of it is useful while others are there for the basic reason he says they are: To keep the dues coming in.

Judo kata exists so that the principles of judo are not lost. Doing the kata, even without knowing this, does preserve the underlying principles of judo. The Itsu tsu no kata (the five forms) is lost on the Kodokan. Though some are still doing them, the Kodokan says most of it does not resemble jujutsu. Why is that bad? I don't think it was supposed to show anything, but to "feel" the basic principles. Break it down into a mathematical equation, but he also knew the majority would not understand it. This is what Jigoro Kano did to refine technique so that it can be understood. The three principles he named as being so important had never been broken down as other jujutsu schools didn't practice those waza which took a lot of strength very often, and when they did, only the strongest amongst them were able to do them, nage waza in particular.

But with proper use of off-balancing, entering, and "hooking" or completing the technique, most everyone could do a good part of those waza, and uke could rise and do his technique without muss and fuss. Perhaps only the few were ever meant to do or teach the kata, as had he and the other founders.

Do the kata long enough and you probably will feel the principles behind randori. That takes time, and there is never enough of it but some have made a career of doing and teaching the kata. Perhaps we owe them something for that. Perhaps we also owe something to those who have shown the technique at work. There have been many who probably can't recite the ju no kata but have shown the value of it in the technique used in randori or in shiai. This may have been the plan all along. Uchikomi does teach the three principles; two of them very well, so indeed it could be "kata practice." Either way, most judoka have practiced by uchikomi and have benefitted.

Donn Draeger may have well been correct. Certainly, he should be given the benefit of the doubt simply because few have put so much into the study of it with the exception of EJ Harrison, and what Robert W. Smith continues to do.

So there you have it. Whether you practice kata or not, it was all there to begin with.

We know in judo the egg came first, or was it the chicken?;)


hector gomez
12th April 2002, 11:53
Thanks, for posting your opinion on the subject everyone is
definitely entitled to theirs.Mark I really believe this whole
kata issue is brought up or seen more often in the karate world
than it is in the judo circles.In the judo world you definitely
don't see people constantly getting in your face and telling you how
neccesary it is to be a good or complete fighter by mastering these traditional katas, so that line of respect never get's out of hand,everyone simply respects each others opinion on what part of judo they want to practice.

I have never gotten that pro kata attitude at any judo school that
I have visited,unfortunately I cannot say the same thing about some
karate schools.

ripley's believe it or not,I personaly know and learned nage no kata
while sidelined from a judo injury ,but only because I took it upon myself to learn that kata, it was self voluntarily not forced or told to me that I had to learn it.

I have seen this attitude all the time in karate and I just don't see it in judo, I hardly ever see judokas that don't adhere to kata practice putting down kata practicioners that do or viceversa.I believe this is do to the fact that there is a good line of respect between practicioners that do and those that don't. maybe the karate world should learn something from that.

Hector Gomez

Goju Man
12th April 2002, 22:14
Mark, let me just state that if you want to call uchikomi kata, then I would agree with the great kata debate. For quite a while, I never knew that Judo even had kata, and this while training in various schools. Not until I was also sidelined and came across a tape which would show how it looked in the kata and then the practical views. IMO, (and I own a tape with the nage no kata), it looks more like a demonstration than an actual teaching tool. It takes so much time to learn the steps and what not, that probably some technique gets lost.Anyway, I also agree with Hector, that kata debate comes from the world of karate and not so much from the judo world. In fact, even in other judo forums that I visit, I find them talking technique,
the actual tech. talk. It wasn't until in this forum, I started hearing the exact same argument as carried over from the karate forum. In a karate class, most katas are performed rather quickly, where as the nage no kata will take a lot longer to perform. How many could be performed in each class? There is so much ceremonial stuff done, that you would be lucky to perform a couple in each class. Bring on the "uchikomi kata".;)

13th April 2002, 09:33
Most of the ceremonial stuff has recently been cut from the performance of kata so they don't take as much time as they used to. I have older tape of kata and they do seem to go on so long you want to kick at the person's chair in front of you. Still, as in anything, one cannot dismiss something which got you where you are today. Parts of the nage-no-kata showcases some of the more practical areas of judo.

The kata of judo has two participants, and both must perform well, so you're probably right about this being a "karate question." The kata is the one part of judo that is done repetitively so kata entusiasts believe that only through kata can one understand judo. The ju no kata shows the principles of ju, the koshiki no kata preserves the old (also called the kito-ryu no kata) but has techniques which can be learned an applied to the more practical side.

Here is part of a rough copy of an article to which John Cornish, master kata coach and past kata champion, was challenged to defend the usefulness of kata, against the Olympic coaches who say otherwise:

"...Once a Tokui-waza is sorted out how does the student carry out the
practice of a hundred thousand times that we were traditionally told we need (See T.P. Leggett’s article “The Cherry Tree”). Most of us think this training must be carried out in Uchi-komi. I note that this is not even mentioned above in the statements by the coaches!

Most people, even after they have done the 100,000, still find at times they sometimes have trouble with their Tokui-waza and have to “go back to basics” and this basic can be found in Kata. Jigoro Kano said that Kata is the grammar of Judo, Ran-dori he said was the composition.

In the statement, it was said Ran-dori with top-flight people is what is recommended instead of Kata. I have never seen any alternative to
Uchi-komi and Ran-dori as the main training methods both for the top
competitor and the hopefuls.

I’m not sure if the statement means that this is not so in some places. Anyway, it looks like we are caught on the horns of a dilemma with the statement. If it is good for the student to do Ran-dori with top-flight people, it sounds like it is a waste of time for the top-flight person. This I do not believe to be true, in a session of Randori, there are many ways of preventing anyone wasting time, and I’m sure the coaches don’t need me to remind them of those ways.

One way would be to develop techniques that would not be powerful enough to be, at the moment, used against other top competitors, and where do I suggest this person find the N other throws that should be tried, yes, in Kata. As mentioned above the top competitors could train on the wrong
side (left instead of right or visa-versa). If players only uses their
Tokui-waza, no matter how out classed their training partners are, I
think it is like a battleship using its’ big guns to sink a fishing boat.
So you can see I think versatility in throwing techniques is a desirable

John Cornish