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Thread: Oshikiuchi / Gotenjutsu (Daito-ryu)

  1. #46
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    Dear Ellis:

    "......Truth of the matter is, I have no idea how "good" any of these fellows are, not having felt the technique for myself. But I wonder if it is either fair or accurate to have Kondo rather frequently held up as the jujutsu/crude side of DR, almost as if he didn't learn the real good stuff. I wonder if that's really true......"

    You last comment touches on something that I have given a lot of thought to over the years, that is, the role of individual growth and actualization in the arts that one practices. It seems that often when these discussions arise, and I seem to note this particularly among koryu traditions, there is little room made for the possibility of practitioners spontaneously developing insights on their own given that they have been exposed to sufficent amounts of information regarding the art otherwise. In my own experience I have found that I have ben able to develop concepts regarding my own practice and though such information was nor formally transmitted to me by my teacher its importance is often confirmed by other source in time.

    I think I understand some of the strictures practicing a koryu incurs. I just wonder if we are giving sufficient credit to people for being intelligent enough to build on what is given them and produce conclusions on their own. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  2. #47
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    Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
    Nathan -

    4) Sometimes I think Kondo has become unfairly criticized for what he presents. There seems to be an assumption, which I believe may be incorrect, that he can't do the aiki/sophisticated stuff, just because he doesn't present it. As this stuff used to be gokui, he may simply be true to how the art was expected to be presented and passed down. Sagawa can be regarded, I believe, as someone who continued the creative process with DR, and Kodo seems to have made a specialty in the teaching and presentation of the aiki techniques. Truth of the matter is, I have no idea how "good" any of these fellows are, not having felt the technique for myself. But I wonder if it is either fair or accurate to have Kondo rather frequently held up as the jujutsu/crude side of DR, almost as if he didn't learn the real good stuff. I wonder if that's really true.
    That is a fair comment, given that for those outside mainline DR, it's none of our business what Kondo's actual skills are, and a matter of conjecture only.

    However, I am certain that there are those from other DR branches who have met and trained with Mr. Kondo, and who could make valid assessments as to whether he has certain skills -- even if he did not openly demonstrate them. Experienced practitioners may well be able to tell whether someone "has" or "has not," although the individual might be witholding elements of his waza.

    I wonder why, as mainline DR is so much more "public" than most of the DR scions known for their high-level aiki content, it would choose to hide aiki. Mainline DR's conservative siblings do not demonstrate publicly, but neither do they deny that high level aiki is in their curriculum.

    My conjecture is that many contemporary practitioners of DR know *of* aiki, but like many of Sokaku's students, they perhaps didn't receive aiki. They can transmit only what they know, with the realization that there is an element missing from their curriculum. Even without that element, their system is effective and sound; it's just that with the addition of the missing element, it could be even more effective, and have greater depth and sophistication.
    Cady Goldfield

  3. #48
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    Bruce -

    I'd be covering old ground in going into too much detail - (see Skoss' Book III for my essay, "Renovation and Innovation in Koryu"). But - until modern times, "koryu" weren't koryu - they were "genryu" - current systems - and there was a place for development, innovation, etc. To some degree, there was a failsafe in that it was expected to work. Jujutsu schools had rugged competitions. As for weapon's systems, there were taryu jiai, as well as the debate between pure kata vs. systems with safety equipment/precursors to kendo, etc.

    I think the fundamental questions are if the person has extensive and deep enough grounding in the system before innovating (these days, people are ready to "improve" systems after a year or so) and if they have the talent and ability to make something worthwhile - and in many cases, how would one know. One great thing about grappling systems is that testing is possible. In modern times, it's pretty hard to do in many systems.

    Cady - generically speaking, one can take a vow not to show certain levels of one's own ryu. For example, I once saw Sugino demonstrate TSKSR, and announce "here are the gokui iai of the ryu," and he demonstrated things I'd never seen before, which just by the viewing "explained" a lot about the iaijutsu that usually was publicly presented. (I immediately went to my TSKSR friends in the mainline, and told them how I understood their gokui, and here's what the forms were. It was more amusing to me than to them, I'm afraid. Shall I post it here? . .. . ..See what I mean - you cringe - I'd either, as an outsider, post something wrongheaded or worse, post something right that really shouldn't have been revealed. I'm willing to believe the possibility that the mainline has strictures on what should and should not be publicly presented, which could, given others are doing so, lead to an erroneous view of Mr. Kondo. I'm not an advocate - simply, I've gotten used to reading a certain viewpoint of Mr. Kondo from people who are not his students which may not do him justice.

    Best

    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

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    Dear Cady and Ellis:

    If I "marry" my previous comment to Cadys' last comment I find I come out not too far from the place I find in the Hapkido arts.

    Early Choi lineage traditionalists (prior to 1970) continue to profess the original teachings of Yong Sul Choi, the generally accepted wellspring of modern Hapkido traditions. This includes folks like my teacher, Kwang Sik Myung and HIS teacher Han Jae Ji. The execution of this material is characteristically "yu sool" (aka "ju jutsu"). The premise is that the higher levels of execution in cluding "hapki yu sool" and "hapki sool" will be disclosed at the appropriate time in the future. Until that occasion the Masters, as they are, reserve that material to themselves and rarely if ever express it and only under the most covert conditions.

    Compare this with Later Choi lineage traditionalists, practicing, roughly after 1970. Such extensively practiced individuals as Sang Yun Kim and Hyun-soo Lim routinely include "hapki yu sool" (aka: aiki-ju-jutsu) material as a matter of course in regular classes and seminar. The expectation is that students will learn such practice as part and parcel of their MA education.

    I mention this because I have taken exception to the concept that "secret teachings" are reserved to some time as yet unspecified in the future whence the student shall prove worthy. An extreme example of the principle is my sword master who related that formerly it took 20 years for a good student to make 4th dan in Kum Bup. I have trained for over 5 years and have made it to 3rd dan. I am not sure that there is a sheet-of-paper difference between my work and that of many other BB above and below me.

    Please understand that what I am writing is not an indictment of an art or personalities of which I will be the first to admit rank ignorance. Rather I am challenging the blind-obedience to an attitude which may or may not serve a good purpose, and which, as Ellis pointed out, may contribute to unwarrented judgements regarding various personalities. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Ellis,

    I understand and appreciate your point, and do not refute its validity. It is very reasonable to give the benefit of the doubt to such a stance in the face of our lack of first-hand exposure to bald facts.

    However, I am also a firm proponent of Ockham's Razor.

    http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics...ww/node10.html
    (scroll to the example of the two variations of near-identical planetary orbital theories)

    That said...

    IMO, it is always better to take the path of courtesy in non-life-or-death matters. After all, 1. in the Great Grand Scheme of Things, does it all really matter to those of us not in that system? 2. Kondo-san owes us nothing, while gossipy folks like me merrily yak behind his back. 3. It's none of our freakin' business.

    In view of that, I defer to your explanation and opinion, which are far more gracious and reasonable than mine. But, I do have my own second-hand facts and evidence, as well as valid first-hand experiences in my own training, which color my opinions on a variety of matters.
    Cady Goldfield

  6. #51
    Dan Harden Guest

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    4) Sometimes I think Kondo has become unfairly criticized for what he presents. There seems to be an assumption, which I believe may be incorrect, that he can't do the aiki/sophisticated stuff, just because he doesn't present it. As this stuff used to be gokui, he may simply be true to how the art was expected to be presented and passed down. Sagawa can be regarded, I believe, as someone who continued the creative process with DR, and Kodo seems to have made a specialty in the teaching and presentation of the aiki techniques. Truth of the matter is, I have no idea how "good" any of these fellows are, not having felt the technique for myself. But I wonder if it is either fair or accurate to have Kondo rather frequently held up as the jujutsu/crude side of DR, almost as if he didn't learn the real good stuff. I wonder if that's really true.

    Best

    Ellis Amdur

    ********************************

    I am unaware of Kondo being unfairly treated. He is a fine man and well able. Perhaps the questions and doubts you refer to are of a comparitive nature; one arts various stylings to another. You seem to infer that it is believed that he connot match the "Aiki" of other arts, and then ironically you state a substantive reason for same in the above post:
    "Sagawa can be regarded, I believe, as someone who continued the creative process with DR, and Kodo seems to have made a specialty in the teaching and presentation of the aiki techniques. Truth of the matter is, I have no idea how "good" any of these fellows are, not having felt the technique for myself. (Amdur)"

    Interestng that you draw attention to the well acknowleged direction that Sagawa and Kodo sensei(s) went in their studies. Were that the case-and I will leave that up to each individual to postulate over- one could find substantive reason for wondering if that direction were an "advancemnt" over the mainline style in regards to the applications of an "Aiki" connection. Or do you postulate that the various branches are the same? I assure you they are not.

    In any event the dichotomy of your statement caught my attention. There are certainly some interesting stories to tell of the men who were here and there but won't talk about it publicly. HIs training was different from others.
    An entirely different tact would be;
    "What is left of the arts jujutsu?" Who has it?
    "Who does and or knows what?"
    And yet another is
    "Who can and who cannot-with whichever that they got?"

    Anyway, back to making money.......
    cheers
    Dan

    [Removed last two paragraphs by request of the author. NS]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 4th December 2003 at 02:25.

  7. #52
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    Dan -

    I agree fully with your last two paragraphs which have not been cut yet - and I assumed you did not mean me particularly, as you know little about me other than my love of mojitos.

    All I'm saying re Kondo is that, as for me, unless it's been substantiatively proved otherwise, I don't know what he is able to do in the aiki realm, just because he doesn't publicly show it. My statement wasn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just been on my mind for awhile, having seen similar statements by a variety of people on the web.

    On other matters:

    I've felt some alleged "aiki masters" who couldn't do anything I didn't let them do - and your raising R. Couture (whom one of my friends trains with) and P. Militech supports something I said earlier about there being no particular reason DR/aikido should not be able to prove it's claims in the same kind of shiai that, by story, at least, they used to.

    I don't know if Kodo, whom I've seen photos of, or Sagawa, whom I've heard stories of, or Okamoto or Okabayashi, whom I've seen videos of, or Kondo, whom I've watched and conversed with, could, any or all of them, fight their way out of a daycare center. I don't know if the aiki side of DR or the jujutsu side is the superior side of the art. 'S not my training, and I only have anecdote.

    I know that JJJ, in general, is, in it's present form, ill prepared for free-style, rough and tumble, because they have, in most ryu, abandoned randori style practice. Takenouchi-ryu used to have a reputation of incredible strength - the Eastern pole of the Kodokan's West in the early days. Nowadays, it's young practitioners are mostly skinny kids of 130 pounds or so.

    If any line of DR has no randori practice , then the same deficits have to apply, including aiki type techniques. One good thing about Chinese "soft" martial arts is the opportunity for free-style training - some of which is not so high level, but some of which makes an excellent fighter.

    As you and I agreed (over mojitos, I might add - the great Cuban truth teller), unless you've banged first, it's unlikely that you (generally speaking) can bring off the sophisticated stuff.

    The best "internal" Chinese martial artist I've ever sparred with has a body that is seamed with blade scars. He truly has learned the hard way about deflection, avoidance, angles of attack, kuzushi, etc.

    In mostly agreement with you - specifically -

    Ellis

  8. #53
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

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    Mr Amdur,

    On jujutsu offered the following:

    "But - until modern times, "koryu" weren't koryu - they were "genryu" - current systems - and there was a place for development, innovation, etc. To some degree, there was a failsafe in that it was expected to work."

    "I know that JJJ, in general, is, in it's present form, ill prepared for free-style, rough and tumble, because they have, in most ryu, abandoned randori style practice. Takenouchi-ryu used to have a reputation of incredible strength - the Eastern pole of the Kodokan's West in the early days."

    One of the finest discussions on JJJ I have ever read was Stan Pranin's interview with Shindo Yoshin ryu's Yukio Takamura. His recognition that Classical JJJ was ill prepared for practical street applications and his innovative approach to confronting this delimma really struck home with me. I'm aware that you are friends with Sensei Threadgill, Takamura Sensei's protege' and am curious what your impressions are of this system and its innovative yet classical mindset?

    I am visiting Denver this week on business and if time permits, may have the opportunty to visit Sensei Threadgill in Evergreen.

    BJ

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    Easy question. I have the highest respect for Toby and a lot of admiration and respect for what he does.

    Ellis Amdur

  10. #55
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Just a few quick comments, (I can’t believe I am writing on these boards again)

    Koryu what’s in a name.
    I thought it was generally considered to use the Meiji date as the cut off point. I wouldn’t even think to consider combat veracity as a parameter. Have you seen some of that stuff? And who would judge. Most Japanese wouldn’t know the difference if their lives depended on it. 1868 was a pivotal point for many reasons and it cleans things up-nothing to debate over.

    Koryu is a Genryu is a Koryu.......excellent point Ellis.
    Innovation, re-creation and experimentation are a combative staple, The ever-changing-constant of a combative rationale. The absence of which brought about…………modern Budo. Thank goodness for MMA Its getting the mentally lazy and those who thrive on the reputation of an others to think and have to account for themselves.


    Ellis
    As I have in the past when reading you- I agree. Whether Aiki or jujutsu is superior is a nonstarter for me. They work hand in hand. It is best for conversation to not even use the word Aiki. Some get caught up in the training and do not ever see- through it to what is there that is usable and in what venue. Connection is connection, training is training and then there is application in a freestlye form. They are not the same thing. Even then You can give the best to some men and they are patently useless with it.
    You mentioned the Chinese arts, I have not felt them and can draw no reference other than that two independant people have told me they only felt what I do from a Chinese style. I can offer no opinion. At any rate there is no shortage of theorist out there in Aiki La-la-land. Your “bang theory” is my own and I have been chastised for saying so more often then I probably should have here. There is only one way to learn to fight. But there in lies the rub. There are those who know they know and those who think they know. For too many people Budo is like a game of three card Monty. The mark gets caught up in what they're shown.
    Show them a set series of responses, to a set series of attacks and they love the neat little package their inexperienced minds can embrace.
    Pick any martial venue and if you watch and say “That won’t work.” Several things happen:
    If you make the statement
    1. You have affronted the sensitivity of most budo people (see my previous post about perceived ability through affiliation).
    If you can further demonstrate the “why” as to why it won’t work-you have returned to statement 1.

    If we read some of the earlier exploits of Jujutsu and Judo men we find they had a fairly difficult time with our own catch-as-catch can wrestlers. If I remember correctly one jujutsu man was all but dismissed from teaching at a military academy after failing to make a sound showing in freestyle. The instructors felt he did not show anything worth augmenting the program for.
    Since the discussion is revolving around Japanese jujutsu I would only offer that jujutsu does indeed have sound principles and a framework that is viable. Just leave in and or learn good striking and kicking skills. That said it is my belief that one must take it out of the training regiment once it is learned and into freestyle to do that very thing. Further, I would offer that if you have the temerity to simply ask-instead of sucking up the techniques that are shown you like some lap dog- you may find some rather interesting ways to augment technique to make it real from the most surprising sources. More than once I have had a Japanese instructor show something nasty, and quite to-the-point that his regular students had never seen all the while saying “No one ever asked me that before.” I have also had men late into the night discussing certain things shown during the days training and agreeing “that won’t work for fighting-I’d do this instead”, or when discussing something I know is combatively sound offer (with a gleam in their eye) another excellent approach to same. And in many instances where were their students? Uninterested.
    DR is not without an accounting of itself. In DR, where, when and why will Aiki-age knock someone out cold? How and where does Ippon-dori need to be modified to work against a tight jab? What’s the entry vector? How do you think of a human as a wire-frame model to read intent and displace him? How or where do strikes work with leg takedowns?
    I think the main issues with martial artists is to stop getting them to act and respond like martial artists. Interrupted attacks and staccato timing along with relaxed responses and hard sharp linear frames is the best anti-martial art or anti-aiki ointment out there.
    Theories and opinion will certainly abound-since our success is dependent upon our own experiences.
    Personally, I have never allowed my studies in the martial arts to ruin my ability to fight.

    Goerge Bernard Shaw's observations hold true in the Martial arts.
    "A reasonable man looks at the world and tries his best to fit in.
    An unreasonable man looks at the world and tries to make it fit him. No wonder the world is ruled by unreasonable men."

    Ellis
    I don’t need Mojitos to open up with you-you’re easy to talk with. Man those things are good though huh? You’re also a strong pull to my dark side, I have to stay away from you an Meik. Cady said later that while listening to us she was going “No..no..noooo.... Not another one.” Bah! Mat and Rich were rather peeved that they could not sit in. They were all the way across the room. I told them they didn’t miss much-we just complained all night about our hair loss!

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 8th December 2003 at 13:29.

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    Thumbs down really?

    In the midst of you guys swinging those things around, did I hear someone mention homo-lateral walking in connection with daito-ryu? hello?

    This seems to a complete novice to be a huge departure from the way I understand human physiology to work...

    anyone have a 15 month old child? I think that's when homo-lateral movement is still dominant in our development.
    Se that sway? see how totally easy a laterally moving technique would overbalance someone past the point of no return?

    What's the point in refusing to allow the reflexive contra-lateral movement of the spine (yes spine, has nothing to do with legs or arms) to take place?

    If you cant define a forward-moving linear plane, ..... just confusing...

    I think Dan now has the prize for the most editted posts (percentagewise anyway) of anyone on the entire internet.

    And the ones I caught were always very mmm revealing?

    I still refer to people's heads as "braincase" ... dehumanizing and yet anatomically correct all in two syllables.

    Happy Chanukah!

    j
    Joel Zimba

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    I would say that anyone hoping to learn "street-effective" self-defense merely from study of the formal kata of DR (mainline, here) is somewhat uninformed on any or all of the following issues:

    a) What a kata really is, and what it is designed to teach,
    b) What a modern combative situation requires in terms of serious self-defense training,
    c) the limits of specific martial arts training methodologies as applied to real life combative encounters.

    Incidentally, my opinion regarding DR would also apply to many other martial systems, koryu or gendai.

    Neverthless, the principles being taught within the formal kata better work. IOW, a throw should THROW the uke, without need of. . .um, assistance, by the uke. An unbalancing attack should UNBALANCE the opponent, and, likewise, an armbar or other joint manipulation should actually incapacitate the opponent. Many systems I have experienced fail this most basic requirement, even as its avid practitioners take it for granted that they've already got this part down.

    Having then established correct principles, it is then up to the student to learn how to apply those principles outside of a formal context. How they are applied, and how easily and efficiently, depends on the tradition and the talent of the practitioner.

    Best regards,
    Arman Partamian

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    Mr. Zimba,

    I'd appreciate it if you could write your posts in clear English (both in phrasing as well as terminology), and watch the tone of your posts. If you have an opinion that differs from someone else, that is fine. But you could present it is a less offensive manner, especially considering the experience of the contributors you are "correcting".

    Regards,
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 13th July 2014 at 18:14.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default RE: religion

    First post, and I've been celebrating at a birthday party with my wife, so when I break etiquette please forgive - as I am always shocked by the arguments on these sites, yet drawn to them.

    We all choose a style of budo that seems inherently or innately correct, and true to our inner selves and beliefs. Thus, when someone attacks our chosen style, we feel personally offended and attacked, and will defend ourselves through whatever means available, (you might have better luck arguing catholicism to a protestant). Wait, aren't wars being fought over that? Same principle isn't it.

    This thread began as a simple question over inner palace techniques, which knowing the answer to - really won't improve any of our technical abilities will it????

    Next came the question of Aiki abilities and instructors we should respect and admire, not criticize. I really want everyone who's posted - to please give a definition of "Aiki". If there is any convergence in ideas, I think we might actually begin to have an initial concept. but really doubt it.....

    I am not sure where the thread has gone now, too many Dennis Miller - five dollar - metaphysical analogies to be certain, but I'm glad to see some of Kondo Sensei's more tactful and polite students finally responding.

    If I've overstepped, bear in mind I've been drinking - and don't wish to personally attack anyone.

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    Default Re: really?

    Originally posted by jzimba1
    In the midst of you guys swinging those things around, did I hear someone mention homo-lateral walking in connection with daito-ryu? hello?

    This seems to a complete novice to be a huge departure from the way I understand human physiology to work...

    anyone have a 15 month old child? I think that's when homo-lateral movement is still dominant in our development.
    Se that sway? see how totally easy a laterally moving technique would overbalance someone past the point of no return?
    Mosf us here, even those skilled in the complex structures of the human body, realize that the method of walking mentioned is contrary to the natural movements of the human body. Keep in mind though, that Daito Ryu's bodily manipulations are SPECIFICALY DESIGNED to affect the body by moving it in directions that our minds and sometimes our bodies have trouble getting used to

    IMHO, I would think that a student of Daito Ryu, Aikido, etc., would want to learn the how and why from their instructor. A student of anatomy, etc. who also happens to be a student of Daito Ryu (like my instructor's own teacher who is a dan grade in DTR and a Physical Therapist) has an advantage in some ways and a definite disadvantage in others. The one BIG disadvantage I can think of is PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS OF HOW ANATOMY "SHOULD" WORK.. Keep in mind that bumblebees can't fly according to science.

    FWIW.

    Regards,

    Carlos
    E. Carlos Estrella, Jr.

    The strength of a man is not measured in how much he can lift, how many he can fight or how much he can endure, but in his capacity to admit his limitations and learn to successfully circumvent them.

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