Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28

Thread: Actual Training

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    968
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Actual Training

    I wonder how many Yudanshas actually train in their art? By that I don't mean the dissecting of bunkai. I mean actual physical training kicking, punching, grappling, etc. The reasom for this is I've seen some practitioners lately running around with high rank and don't train a lick. Does it mean when you reach Yudansha the training stops?
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    1,862
    Likes (received)
    90

    Default Re: Actual Training

    Originally posted by Goju Man
    Does it mean when you reach Yudansha the training stops?
    Hell no. Up here if that was the case there would be no training at all. We would just have a room full of people staring at each other.

    The problem we are having is there is no mudansha. There are tons of children in the kids class. But we are not getting any adult beginners. We had a hard program. As little as 10 or 15 years ago if adult mudansha didn't hang it was no big shakes there were always new recruits to fill the ranks.

    Sensei is no longer here to teach. His ranking student has taken over the program and made things easier. He even tried some advertising. Before word of mouth was our only advertising. He has a few more adults but not many. Karate just doesn't seem popular with adults the way it used to be. If it wasn't for the children it wouldn't be worth his time. The tradition here is that Yudansha do not pay for training. If it wasn't for the childern we couldn't do that anymore. In fact I don't how long that tradition will continue.
    Ed Boyd

  3. #3
    kusanku Guest

    Default

    Y'Know, Manny my friend, back in the day, shodan was when the serious training Started.Some of us, probably you among us, still think it is.
    I know that I do.But us old Judoka got attitudes like that, you know, if it don't work or can't be made to work against resisting dkilled opponents, don't waste our time with it.

    I do know what you mean about the inflated belt dudes, too.Mon Gosh, some these twenty year old tenth dans are a sight.

    As for the guys dissecting bunkai and not training, I have heard of this phenomenon, but where I live it isn't that way, though nearby it is.

    How , I want to know and I bet you do too , can anyone train any realistic techniques merely by coming up with often silly or inadequate analysis of kata?

    There must be regular, steady, training, sometimes even very intense and hard training for those able to stand it, in basic movement and application of basic movement, before any kind of kata bunkai can be hoped for to produce results.

    Or simply put, if you can't do basics when you need to, you won't be able to do kata. As on Japoanese kumite champion I knew of said, 'however, 'If your basics are good, your kata is good."Lot of people found that hard to understand for some reason, made perfect sense to me.

    Its like saying in Judo or Jujitsu, 'If you can't make a basic waza work, how will you make a combination work?But if your basics are trained to sharp edge, then you can combine them at will.' Kata merely show manners in which basic waza may be combined to produce a result of a whole greater than the parts.In other words, compound affect.

    So, each part should be mastered. And if you can't learn the throws from karate, go to Judo, if you can't learn the locks, jiujitsu, etc.But they are there in the kata shown as combination techniques against a skilled resisting opponent who will otherwise counter the basics, and mambo you.Just like champions at contest, who neutralize one another's attempts at basic moves one after another, but who get in with a subtler series or combination to produce the desired effect, kata, if and only if the basics are mastered and properly trained, can show tyhe way to similar results, but geared not for contest, where mostly it is illegal, but in self defense, where you are allowed to combine different types technique for maximum results when needed.Really, its all the same.

    But- Youse Guys to which Manny was referring about, who do Kata bunkai as though it is all you need and never practice your basics and never work resisiting opponents as in sparring or randori,line up on the right, on the mat, I hope you can breakfall.:-)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    968
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default True Words

    That is very true in all arts. If your basics are not sound, you're in for a long haul. In judo it is a little fifferent than in karate. My judo instructor is over seventy years old and still trains. In judo, yudansha train all the time, and quite hard. It is in karate that I see many instructors who don't train. How can you teach a technique that you cannot perform? Yet there you have it. Instructors break out the fancy belts, impressive lineages and the like, yet if caught in a street situation, would be in serious trouble. Judo and Jiu Jitsu are different in that, to have rank you have to demonstrate it. Many karate instructors have obtained rank through the mail and have never even seen their supposed instructors.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    N. Ft. Meyers Florida
    Posts
    525
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Hi Manny,

    The days of:

    Who can break the makiwara, or quit punching before the other guy,

    The ever popular name that kick challenge,

    Speed punching race to the maki or partners stomach,

    Marathon pushup contests,

    Kotekitai marathon,

    Round robin till ya drop,

    Seem to be only memories as the individual accepts his premature self imposed ShuHaRi.

    Although proper training makes it easier for us as we age, cerebral practitioners who forego the actual ShuGyo, are barking up a vacant tree.

    Kata is the literacy, Fighting is the industry.
    Steven L. Malanoski

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    1,862
    Likes (received)
    90

    Default

    Originally posted by Steven Malanosk


    Kata is the literacy, Fighting is the industry.
    That is cool. Did you come up with that one? It sounds like a piece of wisdom that your teacher would say. I'm being sincere.

    Respectfully
    Ed Boyd

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    N. Ft. Meyers Florida
    Posts
    525
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Bingo! Mr. Boyd,

    It was a direct quote from his thesis.
    Steven L. Malanoski

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    968
    Likes (received)
    0

    Angry Long Gone

    Hey Steve. I was up in Sarasota a couple of weeks ago and thought about you while passing the Ft. Meyers sign. I'll drop by one day when I have some more time. Yes, those good old days are long gone except in a few dojo. Mainly because that type of dedication isn't part of todays fabric. Dojos that operate that way today are probably not moneymakers. The students don't want to train. Training the mind IS very important but if the body and its tools are neglected, the knolege is useless.
    Speed punching race to the maki or partners stomach,
    Round robin till ya drop,
    You must have been in my dojo!
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    28
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    We train very hard in my dojo. We always start with a good 40-50 minutes of pure workout warmups, including these brutal pushups that are half yoga, situps of all types, shutos until your shoulders are screaming, etc.

    It's then followed up with "round the room exercises" in which we train in basic techniques until we drop - punches/blocks without stopping included.

    We often to something called "swimming" in which one has to drag his body across the floor using arms only. If you complain about your gi getting dirty you start over.

    Doing throws and floor techniques and rolls and the like are the EASY nights.

    -Joshua Fruhlinger

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    968
    Likes (received)
    0

    Wink AAAHHHH YES

    Good old fashioned training.
    We often to something called "swimming" in which one has to drag his body across the floor using arms only. If you complain about your gi getting dirty you start over.
    Sounds like a grappling school?
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    N. Ft. Meyers Florida
    Posts
    525
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Funny story:

    At one of my previous locations, I was running the class through "Swimming," and made a wize crack, that "this is how we clean the mat." One of the more pain in the ars mother's that was watching class, later made a comment to the effect of not appreciating her son, being used to clean the mat, and that she would have to wash the gi extra because of it!
    Steven L. Malanoski

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    968
    Likes (received)
    0

    Talking The secret of the mat

    That's why our mat was so clean! Two sets of "swimming" and two sets of "shrimping", it's no wonder the mat is always clean!
    But that's what makes the difference in some grappling schoolsa. The warm ups are much more intense than some of these karate schools. It's funny though, that some of these instructors would have you do things they never did! (never mind doing them now)
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  13. #13
    kenshorin Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by kusanku

    As for the guys dissecting bunkai and not training, I have heard of this phenomenon, but where I live it isn't that way, though nearby it is.
    I have seen this phenomenon first hand. Its been growing in my dojo (the one I train in, not the one I teach) like a cancer. It all started when one of our yudansha went and started doing all the Dillman crap. He brought that whole bogus way of training in kyusho while not maintaining basics into the dojo. He got my instructor into it (recently my instructor has been getting lazier and lazier with his own training / teaching) and from there it started hitting all the other yudansha who are lead to believe this is the "way". Its crap. Me and a few others are staunch basics guys, but its a losing battle. The people who aren't into the training and into the whole rank / external motivations seem to like this lazy training just fine. Don't worry, I'm in the process of "adjusting" my training (a nice way of saying I'm looking for another dojo ) I'll tell ya, its a weird situation when you are in the minority for wanting to actually train in your class, and when you feel funny during free practice and you're the only one doing anything! I get more of a workout teaching than I do from "training"... sucks ass.

    Funny story... we did this little board breaking exhibition recently, and the same guy from above (Mr. Kyusho) couldn't break a single suspended board with a straight punch! This guy is also the same guy who has a billion and one excuses when his miracle kyusho doesn't work. I guess the excuse here is, the board didn't have any pressure points?
    Last edited by kenshorin; 10th July 2002 at 17:37.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    117
    Likes (received)
    0

    Cool Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

    Pain, ah the pain,

    it must be working though,

    When I started training here in April this year I weighed in at 113kg today I weigh in at 96kg, hows that for a weight loss plan, 17kg in less than 4 months.

    I will never forget the first two weeks.....
    Andrew Brandon

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    28
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Sounds like a grappling school?
    It's a traditional Goju Ryu class. Shorei-kan.

    Speaking of workouts, I'm in PAIN today from last night's class. We didn't even do katas or bunkais last night (which is unusual, actually).

    We did, however, do an obscene amount of pushups, had to hold ourselves up with just our knuckles (the sensei came around after to check that only our index and middle knuckles were white). We then did some punch/block/counter techniques over and over again until we were out of breath (or at least I was...hehe). Included a chest punch/block in sanchin dachi, down punch/block in shiko dachi, and then a grab at the end of that block with a counter.

    THEN we did some evasion/counter techniques. This involved ducking from a punch, turning and going down into a tokato geri (backwards kick), rolling away from the attacker, jumping up to face the approaching attacker, blocking, and countering.

    I'm burning, but feeling good, and I'm glad that I'm actually getting a workout at the dojo rather than "analyzing" bunkais. Sounds pretty easy. Are all those students little fatties?

    -Joshua Fruhlinger

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The kata-speed used in the Koryu traditions
    By Fred27 in forum Sword Arts Forum Message Archive
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 1st August 2007, 12:50
  2. Fighting techniques and training methods
    By Brian S in forum Close Quarter Combatives
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 28th January 2005, 23:48
  3. Innovation
    By Tim Shaw in forum Karate Archive
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 25th March 2003, 08:23
  4. Update On "The Anatomy Of Fear"
    By Darren Laur in forum Close Quarter Combatives
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11th September 2002, 05:19

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •