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Thread: Aikijujutsu Technique: Shihonage

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    Default Aikijujutsu Technique: Shihonage

    I recently started learning this classic technique in my karate class (Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do). I am wondering if there is a Daito-ryu version of this technique, what the Daito-ryu version is, or if you have any pointers for how to improve it in practice? Thanks in advance for all martial wisdom!

    Jesse Peters

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    I have a question, first. Why are you being taught Shiho nage? I am not trying to be rude or anything, I just am surprised that a karate class would be studying a rather complex aiki technique. Ueshiba Sensei believed that a thorough understanding of shiho nage was key to understanding aiki. Are you doing the technique from a grasp, punch or weapons attack? It can make a small difference. I will say that the key to the technique is kazushi (unbalancing the opponent). If you can say what the attack is it will be helpful in discussing the use of this very classic technique.
    docphil

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    Hakko-ryu Jujutsu contains the Shiho Nage principle as part of its curriculum.

    However, from what I've seen of Aikido's Shiho Nage there is a significant difference in excution (and some of the details) between the two versions.

    I suspect that both techniques/principles came from Daito-Ryu.

    As Phil mentioned above, kazushi is a very important component of the principle in Hakko-ryu as well.
    John Cole

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    Jesse Peters: First of all, I find it perfectly reasonable that your studying Shio-Nage in Karate.
    Phil Farmer: Are you claiming that Daito-Ryu invented Shiho-Nage? If so I find its interesting that every combative art I have ever studyed had a version of the four direction cut/throw/lock in one way or another. Why should Karate be any differnt? If you want I can give you specific examples or maby we can just start another thread on the origin of Shiho-Nage. That might be a cool thread.
    Any way as far as tips or pointers for Jesse I hope I can add a few things that will prove to be usefull.
    Im not trying to scare you "but" over the years I have seen more than a few injurys to the wrist/elbow shoulder from Shiho-Nage type throws and locks. Not to mention the odd head bouncing of the matt/ground. Depending how your doing Shiho-Nage there may or may not be, many points along the process where you can be hurt or hurt your partner. So use caution and remember my motto "first get good, than get fast". IMO the difference between shreading a arm like a 25 cent chicken wing, and having the tech fall apart with uke spinning out the bottom, can be only a few degree's. If "you" are being thrown from a standing postion with your hand outside of your shoulder, there are times when some spectacular ukemi is needed IMO, in order to protect your self from injury. As you may or may not know, some people fly, some dont. When training know if your partners has wings or not, and be aware of your own limitations. Consider your landing surface as well, it can make a difference in one's willingness to "go over the top". Again I not trying to scare you(just be prepared) and just know that a fast throw where your wrist ends up on the outside of your shoulder and nage drops the wrist "smartly" and your not ready to fly, or resist at the "critical moment" because you are scared to fly because you think you "may" land badly, well, damage can happen in a heartbeat. You might not realize how easy the joints like wrist/elbow shoulder "will" shread untill its to late. The Damage that Shiho-Nage can do to the joints/tendons/muscles/nerves are classified as perment damage in my book. Talk to a sport injury doctor for details, bring a barf bag.
    Also, even if you/they do fly, and nage drops to one knee as you begin to go a** over tee kettle there may not be enough room to successfully spin mid air which can result with your or his/her head clipping the ground on the way around. Call it what you want but broken necks while "training" are "Very Un-Aiki" no matter what art you do, I would say.
    If when training and Im Uke, and my partner wants to do air throws , I have found that at the point where I sense its "coming" as a matter of survival I instintually fight to "get my body close to my hand"(very important). Keeping my head, shoulder and wrist in what I call a "close triangle". In the middle of this triangle is my rotation point. It sounds kind of funny as I look at my words on the screen, but when your upside down four feet above the ground approaching the ground rapidly it makes perfect sense. So just before Im put into orbit I like to keep everything up top as tight as possible. And for the lack of a better way of saying it as he sends me over the top I "jump over my own arm" as the throw is applied. Nage may feel/think Im throwing myself but so far it works good for me. See my arms still works. Another point about the Ukemi of Shio-Nage is if you can, "before" your completly tied in a knot, keep some "spring" in the old legs before you go over the top. In the air "try your best" to keep your eyes open and sight in your landing. I like to touch the ground as gravity has its way with me with my free other hand to help me feel where the ground is. When you fall, try and not break you toes on the ground. I know some systems(I sure no one here) like to slap really hard with there free hand, to each his own, if you decide to try that, let me know how that works on hardwood.
    If nage is returning your wrist to your shoulder or as we say "letting you down easy" remember to keep your head to your chest on the way down. Im not sure why, but the sound of a head bouncing off hardwood or matt, may put some people off.
    The Aiki version of Shio-Nage I understand is taught in the context of a four direction cut with staff/katana ect...OO. But I think I will save that for later, if this thread continues.
    In the mean time here's a naked hand version for your reading pleasure..
    When uke "thinks" about attacking. Hit em , then grab em by the wrist , start applying torque((twisting and stretching uke's arm) as you "wipe your forehead with the back of your own wrist"(*very important) and spin like a tornado with you on the inside, uke on the outside, keep applying torque, untill the wrist reaches the apex of the corner, and at this point, return the wrist with a twist of the hips(very important this happens in one motion) towards the elbow so that it(the back of his hand)ends up at his own shoulder. As Phil said no returning ukes balence ,please. Now you and uke are facing opposite directions. If all went well that is up to that point, uke "should" IMO be on his toes and you can with very little force move him in any direction. I have found that there must be a shoulder to shoulder connection combined with the wrist/elbow torque that keeps everything uke "nice and snug" and helps to keep Uke from "wiggling away" so to speak. If you get sloppy and leave room uke will make life interesting. So anyways, when/if you want to make uke fall down, simply point with your index finger to the ground with the hand that is holding uke's wrist and "cut down". Uke goes "thump", or swosh depending on his/hers ukemi skills, and how hard and fast you cut down.

    Remember when have Uke in "total controll" after your tricky spin and return his wrist thing of a ma jiggy and the two of you are still standing. Be mindfull that Uke's "other" arm is "hidden and completly free. I have heard that "some people" like to carry wooden tanto's they can draw with there other hand and stab nage behind there back while training just to keep Nage honest. Not me mind you, just "some people".
    Also, If you decide to stay physically connected with Uke to do a finishing move(knee on chest,smash between the eyes for instance) as he goes to the ground, be mind full of his/her feet as Uke(karate especially) might be able to kick you in the head. And we wouldnt want that, now would we. Hope this helps, this post took me hours and wrist are killing me.

    Regards,

    Gregroy Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives International
    Calgary Alberta Canada
    Last edited by INFINOO; 21st July 2002 at 06:25.

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    Thanks! Great threads! The version I am trying to learn is done against a cross wrist grab, it isn't actually a "nage" since you preferably lock the opponent off-balanced standing, so you can finish them off with a stomping headbutt. So far I have heard from instructors and seniors in the dojang or kwan where I train that I should duck very low under the opponent's arm as I start to spin.

    Jesse Peters

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    I don't advocate ducking or stooping at all. Sorry if I sound a little blunt, but I'd wager if your instructors are advocating such, then they don't really understand how the technique works, much less sound basics.

    Brently Keen

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    Brently,

    I think the ducking under the arm thing is in reference to, what we call at least, "shihonage kuzushi", and does not set up the same way the Shihonage jujutsu waza found in the Ikkajo section of the Hiden mainline does.

    In Yoshinkan Aikido, as our Aiki-Buken, there are both versions.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 13th July 2014 at 19:41.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Brenlty Keen: Perhaps you can share some pointers for us on Shio-nage? Your "blunt" response sparked my interest. Keep in mind we dont know if Jesse is tall and the others he is working with are short.
    I agree stooping or ducking may not be the ideal posture however, being tall myself, I know I often must go down on one knee to do waza with shorter partners.



    Regards

    Gregory Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives International
    Calgary Alberta Canada.

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    I don't know what Jesse really meant when he said duck or stoop, but there is a difference between ducking and dropping your center. The former sacrifices your posture, the latter does not necessarily. It's a matter of choosing to bend the back (ouch!) or the knees.

    Chris
    Chris Guzik


    "You can never do a kindness too soon,
    because you never know how soon it will be too late."

    Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    It doesn't matter if you're tall or short. To be clear, I agree with Chris there's a huge difference between acceptably changing levels by lowering one's center and/or dropping to one or both knees, and ducking and stooping. However ducking and stooping both indicate compromising your posture (bending at the neck, back or waist). Many people teach shiho nage in various ways ducking their head and/or stooping over to get under the arm and that is incorrect (imo).

    Without going into too much "virtual" detail here on the internet (be happy to do so in person) describing the number of ways that I would do shiho-nage, I will however gladly explain just a few reasons why I said what I did.

    Regardless of the orgin of the technique, shiho-nage is a characteristic technique of Daito-ryu and it's derivitive arts, but it is also common to many other systems. In Daito-ryu as well as many other Japanese systems, shiho nage comes to us directly as an empty hand application of sword technique.

    Reason # 1 for not ducking or stooping while doing shiho nage is it's not necessary (or advisable) while fighting with swords to make such movements. Variations today that include ducking and stooping may do so because there's no significant sword influence to inform and correct their interpretation of the technique. It's not enough to learn the equivalent sword technique (imo), you'd have to study and practice swordsmanship to fully appreciate the technique.

    Two related things however are often said about Daito-ryu, one is that the tradition is a principle based art, and that's true whether we're talking about jujutsu, aikijujutsu or weapons. The other is that Daito-ryu, was based primarily on and admired for it's strategy. Indeed many of Sokaku's more prominent students were drawn to study it primarily for that reason.

    So Reason # 2 has to do with basic principles. There are many types of principles, some are more fundamental, and others more peripheral or contextual. Some of the most basic principles in Daito-ryu, and arguably for all martial arts are kamae (or posture), maai (relative combat distance/interval), and zanshin (lingering/remaining awareness). These are extremely basic foundational principles - obviously without grasping these (and other important basics), everything else becomes untenable. The problem today is many people who are teaching martial arts don't know or understand these basic principles very well.

    These three principles have to do with the constant relationship between oneself, and others, as well as the surrounding situation/environment. They do not only apply to the start and/or finish of an engagement. If you fail to maintain these (or any other) foundational principles throughout an engagement or application of a technique, then you are (practically) undermining your own efforts and chances for success.

    For example, what good is it if you begin with a great kamae, but lose it as you duck or stoop under in the process of executing your shiho nage? What good is the entire concept of maai if you are unable to sustain a favorable position (combative distance/interval) in your relationship with your opponent once the distance is closed? And of what use is your zanshin if you've already lost your awareness and ability to respond in the process of applying your technique(s) because you've compromised one of these principles?

    The principles are of no good use if you don't adhere to them. I would argue that ducking and stooping in order to get under the arm of a shorter person is compromising all three basic principles. Regardless if it's "worked for you" any success you may experience in doing so, is illusory and relative at best - if you're violating fundamental principles in the process. Training in martial arts is, in a practical sense, training to constantly and continuously move according to principle. Failure to adhere to principle is tantamount to self-defeat, because it presents the opponent with a weakness he can exploit. Whether or not your opponents or training partners have ever taken advantage of the weakness is irrelevant - the weakness is there waiting to be exploited.

    Reason #3 has more to do with strategy. As I mentioned before, Daito-ryu is a school based in strategy. Sokaku Takeda came from a family/clan that had a long and respected history and tradition of strategists. Again without going into too much detail (because I'd also rather discuss the finer points of strategy offline, in person), from a strategical standpoint, I think it makes little sense to compromise your structural and positional integrity in order to "adjust to the relative size" of your opponent. Although granted this is an extremely popular tactic in most modern martial arts - the assumption is because I'm taller (or smaller) I need to somehow adjust my techniques and movements to accomodate or fit my partner - that's fine if you're practicing for recreation or physical fitness, but if you're training for real self-defense or combat, then it presents some real problems if you compromise your integrity in the process of accomodating. Strategically, what makes more sense? To make my opponent(s) adjust to me and my movements, or for me to adjust to them and theirs?

    In the end it's all much easier said than done, but that's why receiving (and dispensing) proper instruction in kihon is so essential to effective martial arts training (imo). There are many methods for doing so, and I imagine some are better than others - but there's no substitute for lots of repetition and practice to inculcate those basics into everything we do. You have to stick with it for a while.

    I think there's a danger inherent in much of today's MMA mentality, and that is too many people are grabbing techniques from all different sources without really learning the "basics" of those systems and how they work. And then they proceed to modify and adapt those techniques to suit their particular physique and style, making all sorts of adjustments in order to "make the techniques work for them", and they encourage everyone else to do the same, based upon their (limited) experience of what works for them, rather than upon sound principles. The result is a whole host of people all over the place doing (and teaching) techniques incorrectly.

    Just my opinion of course,

    Brently Keen

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    Brenlty Keen: Thanks for expanding your thoughts on Shiho-nage. I would like to address some of your comments. Its late and Im beat so I'll try to keep it brief. Its interesting you brought up the "grabbing" of tech from other systems. I wonder who the Japenese "grabbed" Shio-nage from?. You think they discovered it on there own? Or do you think maby the chinese deleloped it first. Do you think maby India had some influence on the chinese? Or do you think they all came upon the 4 corner cut/throw on ther own? Perhaps thats why you will find a version of Shio-nage in one form or another in many places and time through out recorded history . I for one claim to have invented nothing, but I find value and worth in studing, learning and practicing combatives from a number of sources making them mine. Call mine a Hobo stew if you will. Or call it knock the other guys on his a**, no mattter. IF you think Aikijutsu has the dope on Shio-nage, then good for you, however its pretty arrogent to think you know what most martail artist do? Who are you God? Futhermore to think that most of what they teach is wrong. Whats up with that?
    Maby Greg stupid, because my one and only principle is to "attack the other guys strategy"

    "There is only one art no more no less, and that is the art of artlessness."



    Regards

    Gregory Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives Internatinal
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada

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    Looked to me that Brently was just giving his opinions (as he stated) based on his personal experiences with Daito-ryu. Nowhere did he state that Daito-ryu was superior, only that it has a cogent strategy and principles at its base, and those strategies and principles were proven effective time and again.

    Is this not a forum where people can express their experience-based opinions? Why get bent out of shape because someone makes a cogent argument on a forum dedicated to civil argument, debate and discussion?
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cady Goldfeild: Strategies and principles effective time and time against who?

    Gregory Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives International
    Calgary Alberta Canada

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    The human body. Any human body. Principles and methods that work in deconstructing human anatomy, mechanics and neuromuscular function. The human body and its mechanics have not changed over time, and Daito-ryu's methods are completely attuned to them in a pragmatic way. It's an enormously sophisticated system that exploits the simple mechanics of the human musculo-skeletal system as well as the its more sophisticated neurophysiology.

    The system is so refined, that even an average sized female of no special gifts (me) can use its principles to completely subdue and control the bodies of attackers much larger and stronger than I, and with very little physical effort.

    If you read Takeda's history (Stanley Pranin has an excellent account), you'll see that he was pretty much undefeated in his encounters with the best fighters in Japan in his time. Men many times Takeda's size and strength, attacking full force, no holds barred.

    That aside, I'd hesitate to consider shihonage as a "street technique." More of a dojo exercize to learn, feel and apply certain principles of body mechanics.

    I don't expect anyone to take anything at my - or anybody's - word. I just know what I have learned, observed and performed/applied myself. DR in its most traditional, classical form is not "out there" for the public to see, so of course it wouldn't be reasonable to expect anyone to buy it.

    But, it's not a mystery. Anyone who makes a study of how to manipulate and control a jointed, rigid skeleton and a fallible, predictible electro-chemical and hydraulic neuromuscular and circulatory system, can duplicate the profess. It just takes time, and fortunately, Takeda Sokaku did all of the work and spared us the research time.
    Cady Goldfield

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 07:16.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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