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Thread: Aikijujutsu Technique: Shihonage

  1. #16
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    Why duck your whole body when you need only make the guy's arm get from one side of your head to the other? Enquiring minds want to know.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Default Saw this coming...

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:16.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Cady wrote: "Why duck your whole body when you need only make the guy's arm get from one side of your head to the other?"

    Cady, most people have their head up their rear, hence the whole body has to duck lower to get the uke's arm over their head.

  4. #19
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    Gregory:

    Sorry you were offended by my opinion, but you asked me to elaborate because you were interested. I think if you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I neither meant nor implied much of what seemed to ruffle your feathers - I'll be happy to discuss the matter further in Private Mail if you like.

    Neil:

    Your aiki timing rocks, you always make me chuckle at the most choice moments. LOL!!! Seriously though if your opponent has his head up his rear you don't need to accomodate to that either, just give 'em a good spanking (or boot in the @ss), and save the shiho nage for another day.

    Nathan:

    My primary point was all about compromising your posture by ducking or stooping under the arm - doing so is incorrect (imo). If you want to change your level, then by all means do so correctly, just bend your knees, or drop to one knee, but don't duck your head, or stoop over to do it.

    I think most people will agree that compromising your balance in order to do shiho nage (or any other technique) is not a good idea. But then I also think that many of those same people (I'm generalizing here, so only if the shoe fits wear it) would then step right out onto the mat after agreeing with that, and proceed to compromise all sorts of basic principles, because they are not aware of the ways in which they might be breaking their balance/posture. And the reason is often because they're more concerned with accomodating to their opponent and/or making their techniques work "for them", than they are with adhering to basics, and moving according to principle.

    My secondary point however follows right out of that, and wonders along with Cady why it's even necessary to duck/drop your whole body at all? I think the whole notion that you need to "get lower" because you're taller (or your opponent is smaller) is questionable, and the accomodating mindset behind that notion is wrong - it's better to make the opponent accomodate to you.

    With Respect to all,

    Brently Keen
    Last edited by Brently Keen; 22nd August 2002 at 23:53.

  5. #20
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    Nathon Scott. Makes sense to me.

    Cady Goldfeild: You make a good point. I would go one step further. Why worry about putting the arm from one side to the other when you can grab the attackers wrist from a front punch or diagonal cut(no matter), with one or two hands twist as you pull uke's elbow over your own shoulder palm up and break the elbow. I think you would agree this version of Shio-nage would work on the street?
    The "sticky part" of many Shio-nage's I have seen is at the moment Nage spiral's where he exposes his back to nage. In many cases, all Uke need to to beat the tech is to pull his elbow back and down towards there own body .At this point, nage is in front of uke with his/hert back exposed. Not the best situation on the street or Do-jo IMO. By the way, I learned this Shio-nage variation in a Tai-chi long form application. Hope you find it usefull.

    Regards

    Gregory Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives International
    Calgary Alberta Canada

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    Greg,

    I know what it feels like to be in that position -- arm palm up over shite's shoulder, knowing that the slightest diaphragmatic extension on shite's part will make my elbow snap like a KFC chicken wing.

    There are many ways to do shihonage, certainly.

    However, I've observed enough times that trying to capture a punch or extension is too exacting to risk shihonage in a street situation. Ditto for kotagaeshi. As you must well know, in an all-out confrontation (and I've been in some), gross motor movements and instantaneous connections from whatever vector avails itself, is the most likely tactic for success.

    If the opportunity laid itself in my lap, perhaps. But most of the time there are far more efficacious and preemptive methods to stop and take apart an attacker.

    As for turning one's back to an attacker... There's a difference between turning one's back, and using one's back within a process. Some kinds of shihonage just bring the attacker around your back on his way to your opposite side, but he is so stuck to you and locked up and unable to move anything, that it doesn't matter.

    Neil,
    Can I hire you to do standup at the company picnic? You da best.
    Cady Goldfield

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:16.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Nathan,

    Yah, I understand your walk-through. There certainly are times shite would lower his center, I just haven't seen many applications of shionage where that was necessary. Also, I'm wondering why uke's punching arm would be bent, when it makes more sense (to me, at least) that getting it locked and rigid gives shite so much more control?

    And, what are the odds of a yokomen punch, or a punch slow enough to make the sort of contact from the get-go that you're describing?

    These are meant to be straight questions, Nathan. Just interested in your take on this. Shihonage lends itself academic discussion.
    Cady Goldfield

  9. #24
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    Brenly Keen: My feather's arnt ruffed. Or as my cats say "I ment to do that". Actually, Im enjoying this discussion very much. Thank you "very" much for elaberating on the topic. Your right I did ask for it. Im still very much interested in discussing Shio-nage in this thread , besides no E-mail at the moment. Perhaps next week when I launch my web site.
    I do agree to disagree about bending at the waist, as I think it is usefull at times. Beside it goes with my mind set of never being to proud to duck or jump back. A good example off the top of my head, to keep from losing my head, is in a tech like Pasata Soto( Western Bowie meathods) where the waist is bent(knees too) so that the head is level with your rear end as the Bowie is thrusted into the mid level of attacker. The off hand reaches in opposite direction (palm up) of the thrust to help counter balence. It sounds awakward as hell but in practice, works great.
    Another example in bending the waist is in Sutemi waza where you roll to gain an advantage. In a tech like shio-nage this can get down right nasty as there is no breakfall, at least none your walking away from on a hard surface. Just a thud crunch, snap . I learned the advantage of falling on the opponent(hip throws where my favorite back then) many years ago in wrestling, And the idea has always stuck with me. The fact Im 240 now might have somthing to do with it to. Lisening to all the air violently and rabidly expelling out of your oppenent after you fall on his bread basket tend to stick with you. They made a sound kind of like OOOOOFFF. After that no one had the air to even think about fighting. Iv had it done to me as well(how else do you learn?) and its scarry when you are unable to take in a breath. You swear your going to die or just want to. We used to practice these waza into gymnastic foam(still hurt) or if at the beach, off the deck into water, drownings fun to.
    Anyways good discussion and no hard feelings here.

    Gregory Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives International
    Calgary Alberta Canada

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    Wonderful replies everyone!!

    I'm around 5' 8" and 130so lbs. 21 yrs old, blue eyes blond hair full beard...

    I'm applying this against a grab, where the opponent is basically giving me an arm. Against strikes I would probably use strikes, because I am more or less a karateka with some boxing and kickboxing training!

    What action would you suggest instead of ducking under the arm? Many people in the dojang have tried lifting the arm, but the other guy is always able to spin out when this happens, so this is recommended against. Is their another way of moving the arm that we haven't tried that prevents an enemy from escaping?

    Someone suggested go down to the knees, if I do that how do I spin? I am having some trouble getting this technique down but would really like to learn it, for the principles behind as well as for the immediate application.


    Jesse Peters

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    Wow, so nice to see everyone and some discussion too. Plus Neil masking truth with twisted invective. Great.

    I think Brently and Cady have a point that is often overlooked in aikido circles. It would be worth wile to do some experimenting on the mat with the concept. Make the other guy do all the work

    Too often Shiho Nage looks like reefing on a pump handle. Were is the finess?
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  12. #27
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    A yoshinkan example of the technique Nathan describes from the shomenuchi attack...

    http://www.yoshinkai.org/waza/shihonage/default.htm

    As for an idea of how to apply shihonage without ducking:

    Yokomenuchi shihonage osae ichi (sidestrike, all-direction throw pin #1)

    Aihamne stance,

    Uke attacks yokomen,

    shite pivots, blocks and strikes with atemi across uke's eyes,

    (The hips, hands and knees move first with the pivot, the block is done in a cutting motion, connecting with uke's strike at the fore-arm then sliding down to the wrist. The block can be very effective for taking uke's ballance if the block is initiated with the palm turned to shite's right (or even facing shite) at first, and then is turned out to the left.)

    at the end of the pivot, shite open-steps with the right foot, keeping uke's striking hand in their center with the left hand, thumb over the meat of uke's thumb, and grabbing with the right hand just above the left at uke's pulse. At the end of the open-step, shite's wrists should be crossed, with uke's wrist, elbow, shoulder and center locked and uke still off-ballance. There is also the posibility of applying a forth control on uke if this is done properly.

    Shite now cross-steps into their hands so that their head is in the area where their wrists are crossed with uke's locked wrist. It is important that shite be in proper posture here and uke be off-balanced and locked, because you are about to turn.

    Now shite does a body change, moving with the back knee first, in coordination with the hips. The back knee actually pulls the body to the new direction, while the front knee pushes. Shite should be stable, turning on the balls of the feet, but without lifting the heels off the mat. With your hands locked to your fore-head, you ***do not*** duck at all...your upper body maintains the same posture, while your legs and hips perform the turn. Uke's body is held relatively still during your movement in this body change.

    As shite turns, cut with your hands to uke's shoulder. As you start the body change, your elbows are bent (allowing you to bring your head to your hands) and as you finish the body change, your arms are extended in the cut to uke's shoulder. Uke should now have their back bent, and be almost totaly dependant on shite for their ability to remain standing.

    Shite now shuffles and cuts to their own foot to bring uke down and complete with a pin and atemi. For the pin, it is important that uke's hips are off the ground so that they cannot kick toward shite's head. To accomplish this, use a forth control preassure point on uke's wrist. Properly applied, uke's hips will lift off of the ground. Uke should be at almost a 90 degree angle to shite in the pinning position. Shite may also pin using the knee for additional control.

    This method allows shite to remain balanced and stable, with good posture through-out the technique, giving uke little momentum for reversals (since after the open-step, they are locked into position, and shite does the movement). There is no ducking or bending at the waist involved.

    Ron Tisdale

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    Hi Cady,

    As to shihonage's practicality, Gozo Shioda found it to be quite practical, even against boxers (see the english translation of his autobiography for a reference). Not being of anywhere near his level of capability, I'm not sure of getting it against a good boxer, but it certainly works well enough against most people. I believe it was a favorite fighting technique of a lot of the old timers...

    One of my teachers has a saying for randori...go for the back hand. If you realize that there are multiple strikes coming, evade the first strike (usually a jab) and trap and throw with the second (often a right cross). Generally works well.

    Ron Tisdale

  14. #29
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    Or just take a look at the shiho nage tachiai kata in the "Hiden Mokuroku - Ikkajo, Daito ryu Aikijujutsu" book by Kondo Sensei. As Cady noted, the uke's arm is moved/controlled over the nage's head - the nage has no need to duck (in both omote and ura versions). If he is ducking, he is doing it wrong.

    Not that there aren't other ways to do shiho nage, as Nathan pointed out.

    Regards,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito ryu Study Group
    Maryland

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    Nathan,

    Thanks for trying so hard.
    It's true that verbal descriptions just don't cut it. I and other people I know have "spelled out" things step by step, and still readers didn't get it. Just one of those things, I guess.

    Looking forward to MPEGs and THE TRUTH at last.

    Off Topic (and from another bulletin board, too): BTW, the green 'boo you're holding in the photo on your website sure looks like moso or another Phyllostachys species (which are native to China. Moso was first imported to Japan in the early 1700s and became deeply entrenched in Japanese culture and agriculture.) But you don't need to tell Obata san that his "Nihondake" is really Chinese dake.
    Cady Goldfield

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