Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai

[Burt]

Hi.

I'm getting quite interested in trying Aikijujutsu out. Can anyone tell me what the Roppokai part is all about. Why DAITORYU AIKIJUJUTSU ROPPOKAI and not just DAITORYU AIKIJUJUTSU, what's soecial about this type of Aikijujutsu?

Which techniques are trained in Aikijujutsu? does it depend on the teacher or is it all the same?

Plz help. Thanks for your time

Yours,
Jack L Rasmussen

[kimjohan]

Hi.

Mr. Rasmussen wrote:

I'm getting quite interested in trying Aikijujutsu out. Can anyone tell me what the Roppokai part is all about. Why DAITORYU AIKIJUJUTSU ROPPOKAI and not just DAITORYU AIKIJUJUTSU, what's soecial about this type of Aikijujutsu?

I would recommend reading the book: Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. You can get it at Aikido Journal. The book gives an introduction to Daitoryu Aikijujutsu and also covers the different schools.

Use can also read some info about Roppokai at the Roppokai website

Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai is headed by Seigo Okamoto, who's teacher was Kodo Horikawa (Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai). Horikawa's teacher was Sogaku Takeda, who was the modern source of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu.

The term "Daitoryu Aikijujutsu" denotes the style.
Roppokai is just the name of Okamoto's school of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu.

Not all Daitoryu Aikijujutsu is the same in terms of techniques, practice method etc., though the source is the same: Sogaku Takeda. Takeda apparently taught people differently.

Roppokai is known to resemble Kodokai techniques closely. Roppokai and Kodokai techniques looks differently than Mainline techniques or Takumakai techniques. I think the underlying principles are the same though.

In my opinion every kind of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu (eg. Mainline, Takumakai, Kodokai, Roppokai etc.) is special
Roppokai seems to emphasize soft aiki techniques as opposed to more jujutsu-like techniques. Also Okamoto is known to teach the art openly.

If you're looking to try out Daitoryu Aikijujutsu I would suggest going to different schools (if possible) and look at their practice. Also look at the instructor. Is he/she the kind of instructor that you're looking for? The art may be great , but what about the instructor? Does the school have access to practice with the head (master) of the school? Also what are you looking for? Maybe you're just curious about what all the Daitoryu Aikijujutsu hype is about. Maybe you're looking for a new hobby, or maybe looking for selfdefence capabilities? Anyway it's good to know exactly what you're looking for. Happy hunting

Sincerely,
Kim Johansen.

[Brently Keen]

Jack,

Please email me if you would like more information, about Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai.

Brently Keen
soulsamurai@hotmail.com

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Nathan wrote: "Okamoto sensei split from the Kodokai, and has since been teaching what he learned from Horikawa sensei combined with his own innovations. "

Nathan,
I am not sure it is accurate to say that Okamoto Sensei 'split' from the Kodokai. During Okamoto Sensei's first visit to NC this topic was brought up and he clearly stated that he had received a letter of permission from Horikawa Sensei stating that he should start his own branch of Daito-ryu in Tokyo. This was approximately a year before Horikawa had passed away and when he (Horikawa) was in fine health. Okamoto Sensei did not actually start his own branch until after Horikawa S. death due to business obligations and his recent move to Tokyo. This is the
'verbal' story that Okamoto Sensei related to us, I have not seen the letter and since I don't read Japanese it wouldn't matter if I had. Take it for what it is worth.

mark

[kimjohan]

Mr. Scott wrote:

I don't think it is fair or accurate to say that the Kodokai and Roppokai look the same, or are the same.

I agree that Roppokai and Kodokai are not the same, and that they use a different approach to the art.
But compared to Mainline and Takumakai, there certainly is a closer resemblance between Roppokai and Kodokai techniques.
I have seen seminar video tapes of both Roppokai and Kodokai, and my observation is based on that.

- Kim Johansen.

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[TimSoehner]

This image shows technique from a level of Indonesian Pentjak Silat called Tenaga Dalam. Assuming the technique is real and not faked, does this look like upper level aiki? If so, do you think it was developed by Indonesians independently or perhaps influenced somehow by Japanese occupation or guided perhaps by chinese martial arts principles?

Tim Soehner

Sorry about image size, I had to cut it down so it was of size to be uploaded

[Brently Keen]

It's difficult to say from a picture - especially without seeing the before and after - although there are some similarities there (in that picture).

Incidentally, Okamoto sensei has held Roppokai training camps in Indonesia (Bali if I recall correctly), I have seen pictures of silat practitioners and Roppokai members together following what I believe was a joint training session between the groups.

Roppokai members I talked to who were there were not all that impressed with the members of that particular silat group. But I have met some highly skilled silat practitioners who are very adept with knives - no aiki - but dangerous none-the-less.

Personally, I'm always suspicious of guys in funny hats though!

Brently Keen

[TimSoehner]

I am aware that Okamoto Sensei spent a little time in Bali. A good question is, do you think that the effects seen in the photo could have been produced based on a small amount of training in Indonesia. There is no official Roppokai Dojo in Indonesia and I don't believe Okamoto Sensei has been back since.

Tim Soehner

[Brently Keen]

A better question would be are the effects seen in the photo real?

Then if it can be shown that they are, are they then the same effects as Daito-ryu aiki (or are they simply similar)? And then again, if this silat practitioner is producing the same results/effects, then another important question would be 'HOW' is he producing those results/effects?

If he's accomplishing the the same results using silat, or some Chinese principles, then although he may be accomplishing the same ends (effects) he's not using the same means. In my experience, what is most unique about Daito-ryu aiki is not the ends, but the means - a specific set of ways of how one can accomplish those effects/ends.

If after all that, it is discovered that the silat practitioner is using the same means, then we could say he's using aiki - the next question would be how did he arrive at these means? Through independent discovery, or through some connection to Daito-ryu?

If these results are possible through the means of Daito-ryu aiki (& they are) then it is certainly possible that others may have - or will discover the same means. I personally just haven't seen evidence of it yet.

Similar questions could also be asked of the Russian "Systema" in my opinion. Some have assumed that it is "the same as" aikijujutsu - it does appear very similar in some of it's effects/results, and it also uses some very similar means apparently - yet there are also some distinctives - are the similarities the result of a common source and/or influence of one on the other, or simply independent discoveries of the same sort of means? I doubt we'll ever know with certainty.

With regard to photo all we can do is speculate. There's just not enough for us to draw any sort of conclusions.

BK

[O'Neill]

Hi,

I have a few of the daito ryu demo tapes offered on the aikido journal site and was wondering if the roppokai were ever asked to demo at these events? The mainline, takumakai, kodokai, and even aikido did demos but the roppokai were absent from them. They were the anniverary demos honoring Takeda sensei. I was surprised that they were absent from the fun. Thanks.

Erin O'Neill

[Nathan Scott]

Since you are not getting any hits on this thread, I will offer a couple of possibilities:

1) Okamamoto Sensei declined enough times that the Roppokai is not approached anymore

2) Hosts of such commemorative enbukai tend to invite those groups that they are on good terms with and respect. In the case of Kondo Sensei, I don't know if he and Okamoto Sensei correspond at all, though they are both located in Tokyo.

3) Some/many of the other recognized branches of DR may not fully endorse the Roppokai as a branch of Daito ryu.

The mainline is continued by someone who received Menkyo Kaiden from the previous headmaster. The Takumakai was formed around someone who received Menkyo Kaiden from Takeda Sokaku. The Kodokai was founded by someone who received Menkyo Kaiden by Takeda Sokaku/Tokimune. The Sagawa dojo was founded by someone who had not received Menkyo Kaiden, but was a long time direct student of Takeda Sokaku and was well respected as a technician and extremely conservative with how he ran his dojo.

Okamoto Sensei did not receive Menkyo Kaiden from a previous headmaster of the mainline, or from Horikawa Sensei, who was the Menkyo Kaiden headmaster of the Kodokai branch However, Okamoto Sensei was a long time student (one of the longest) of Horikawa Sensei, and was one of a handful of Shihan in the Kodokai. In any event, this is one point that I've heard raised.

Another is that Okamoto Sensei is acknowledged as having added significant amounts of his own innovations to the art, but on the other hand, so had Sagawa Sensei.

Okamoto Sensei has also been critisized for teaching DR aiki openly, producing books and videos about DR aiki. While Kondo Sensei has also produced books and videos about DR (and has been critisized to a degree for it), he has been very selective in regards to what elements of the art are shown openly - showing mostly jujutsu.

Obviously, the whole issue is not black and white, and is quite subjective. I don't post the above with a negative spirit, these are just points that I've heard raised before over the years. The subject is of course quite complex, and there are at least several sides to a story like this. No offense to anyone is intended, and such politics do not take anything away anything from the level of ability Okamoto Sensei may have in the art. .

While I don't personally know why Okamoto Sensei has not participated in DR Commemorative demonstrations, I suspect it is for one of the above reasons.

Such a question is reasonable, and may as well be discussed (politely) here

Regards,

[kimjohan]

Hi.

Okamoto Sensei has also been critisized for teaching DR aiki openly, producing books and videos about DR aiki. While Kondo Sensei has also produced books and videos about DR (and has been critisized to a degree for it), he has been very selective in regards to what elements of the art are shown openly - showing mostly jujutsu.

I have several times come across the above statement.
It could seem as if Okamoto Sensei have become unpopular in some circles, because he choose to teach openly to outsiders.

In every on of those martial arts I have come across, there was a lot of politics involved. Some people seems to focus much about receiving recognition, others focus on enjoying their art.
I see no reason as to why Daito Ryu should be any different


Sincerely,

Kim Johansen.

[Howard Popkin]

Hello,

One of my colleagues posted this, but I thought it needed clarification.

Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai - American Branches

Texas - Jose Lopez
Oregon - Desmond Harpster
New York - Howard Popkin

If you are looking for information about the Roppokai in the U.S., please privately e-mail one of those three representatives.

Our contact information can be found on the official Roppokai website - www.daitoryu-roppokai.org. Information about international branches is there as well.

Thanks,

Howard Popkin